Rick and Morty Cosmology Downgrade

[Mythic381]

As Rick states in the comic, the rock is fake and not what he was looking for. So him easily moving it can be chalked as evidence of the rock just not being real. He also uses spatial dimension explicitly in this scene, meaning they're talking about axis of movement.

To be fair, if Rick apparently saw it before, yet he wasn't exactly confused about him being able to hold it.

 

[ShionAH]

Its entirely possible he just has higher dimensional augmentations that lets him interact with them or maybe he simply didn’t know it wouldn’t be touchable or maybe…

Its leads to way too many assumptions to make just to go against a VERY direct feat.

 

[Qawsedf234]

augmentations that lets him interact with them or maybe he simply didn’t know it wouldn’t be touchable or maybe

If he can hold a cube that has infinite spatial axis, Rick would need to have infinite/immeasurable lifting strength.

 

[ShionAH]

If he can hold a cube that has infinite spatial axis, Rick would need to have infinite/immeasurable lifting strength.

I know.

 

[Udlmaster]

Being 4D but not infinite in power is not an anti-feat. The FAQ covers it:

I think the main issue is that the Time Cop was physically beaten up by Rick, who varies from being regular human to superhuman.

I think the key part that matters for the Time Cops would be this part of the FAQ:

If a character is merely stated to be higher-dimensional and simultaneously has no other feats to derive anything noteworthy from, then they are put at Unknown, and the same applies to lower dimensions as well.Do note, however, that them not qualifying for Tier 2 and above doesn't mean they are "fake" higher-dimensional beings or anything of the sort. It is simply that being higher-dimensional does not inherently mean they have infinite power in the first place, as explained above.

It does beg the question whether Dimensions in Rick and Morty denote any measurably power increase at all.

 

[ShionAH]

I don't think this is an issue at all? Time Cops are simply not durable, I want to add that the 5th Dimensional Aliens dying isn't an antifeat as they were killed specifically by Rick's Technology.

 

[SweetDao]

I think the main issue is that the Time Cop was physically beaten up by Rick, who varies from being regular human to superhuman.

I think the key part that matters for the Time Cops would be this part of the FAQ:


It does beg the question whether Dimensions in Rick and Morty denote any measurably power increase at all.

At that point, I wonder if the beings inside those dimensions aren't just pseudo-HDE when they are inside said dimension, but are otherwise regular 3D beings.

 

[FinePoint]

Being 4D but not infinite in power is not an anti-feat. The FAQ covers it:

I know, but it doesn't exactly support it either, especially when the other evidence is a single statement. Though it doesn't really matter since it doesn't mean the entire universe is a higher dimension either.

It does not. The FAQ covers it in the 2-A section.

So this is not an uncountable infinity of universes.

That FAQ excerpt is not relevant here. That's about affecting multiple infinite multiverses not being more impressive than a single one because they're still countably infinite together, which is true.

What's going on here is different. We're taking a finite slice of something infinite and having that finite slice still contain infinity inside of it due to the nature of what it was taken from. A countable infinity would produce a finite sample from a finite sample, an uncountable infinity would not.

This concept is a reference to geometry itself, in that a circle contains infinitely many points, but if you cut out a finite curve of that circle, this curve would still contain infinite points because the circle actually has uncountably infinite points, which is the reason this happens.

There is a theoretical interpretation that he just separated two countable infinities, but then the entire reference to a central finite curve would be completely lost, and I think the writers deserve a little more credit than us assuming they use those terms for no reason. It would also dampen the impact of the reveal of him just being a big egotistical baby, as it would imply his half might actually be equal to the 'other half', whereas an uncountable infinity isolates this infinite Rick side way more by making it potentially fundamentally smaller than the whole (in that you can have two uncountable infinities be a tiny slice of a circle and a massive slice of a circle, but two countable infinities are always equal in size). So, at the very least the circle analogy is a valid interpretation deserving a Likely or Possibly, and one I think is contextually fitting.

This isn't an extremely high-tier revision, so I don't think that it seems necessary to bother them more than I already do.

It's a pretty popular verse, and this is seemingly a bit controversial so it may be needed, but of course don't do anything you're not comfortable with.

 

[ShionAH]

especially when the other evidence is a single statement

Why does that matter? It's a direct statement that cannot be interpretated in any other way. We aren't gonna ignore something because it has been mentioned once especially when this is a comedy show that is FAR from caring about continuity and quite the opposite.

I also explained why the universes would contain these dimensions because otherwise 5th dimensional aliens wouldn't be able to fit inside.

 

[FinePoint]

Why does that matter? It's a direct statement that cannot be interpretated in any other way. We aren't gonna ignore something because it has been mentioned once especially when this is a comedy show that is FAR from caring about continuity and quite the opposite.

Because we're tasked to consider the entire context and portrayal before assigning a high tier.

On a technicality, all of this could be exactly as stated. Acting like 3D objects in practice is not a technical bar against being higher-dimensional. A single statement may be enough to prove it, but it paints an overall picture that seems inconsistent.

That is to say, to list a statistic we require the chance of that statistic being accurate to at least be notable, not just theoretically possible.

I find the evidence lacking compared to the context which pictures Rick as a physically normal person (most of the time).

He's a supergenius who bends reality to his whim. For all we know his idea of something 'extending into different spatial dimensions' could be completely different to ours. He doesn't strike me as the kind to hold to the gospel of modern science and theory as we know it.

I also explained why the universes would contain these dimensions because otherwise 5th dimensional aliens wouldn't be able to fit inside.

It could also be that these are not the entire object, and that we're only seeing a tiny 3D sliver of their true size which exists fundamentally beyond the universe itself.

If both are possible, we're left to guess which is most plausible.

Personally, I think Rick and Morty being 6D by default is a more wild assumption than that these potentially HDE objects either aren't really, or as people are starting to convince me, are but not in a way that has to imply the entire universe is too.

 

[ShionAH]

On a technicality, all of this could be exactly as stated. Acting like 3D objects in practice is not a technical bar against being higher-dimensional. A single statement may be enough to prove it, but it paints an overall picture that seems inconsistent. That is to say, to list a statistic we require the chance of that statistic being accurate to at least be notable, not just theoretically possible.

Why would we need more? We have Rick an extremely trustworthy character specifically talking about there being dimensionS that Morty cannot perceive that can expand infinitely into the spatial axis, this is as direct as you can get for a higher tiering rating. It's basically like if Rick looked at the screen and said "Our cosmology would be rated as Tier 1 in Versus Battle's" It's AS clear as a story can get.

It could also be that these are not the entire object, and that we're only seeing a tiny 3D sliver of their true size which exists fundamentally beyond the universe itself.

You'd have to prove this I believe, I am going off by what we have. 5 Dimensional Aliens. Fitting inside a universe of Rick and Morty. They wouldn't be able to if the universe was infinitely smaller. You are the one making a wild assumption that they have a true form outside the universe and do you have anything to imply that?

Personally, I think Rick and Morty being 6D by default is a more wild assumption than that these potentially HDE objects either aren't really, or as people are starting to convince me, are but not in a way that has to imply the entire universe is too

It is not an assumption though?

Neither did I see any relevant counter arguments other than a false information about how Rick moved the rock, a false equivalence about how Time Cop being hurt means anything, a false information about how the 5th Dimensional Aliens have any antifeats another misinformation about how a direct statement about infinitely expanding spatial axis doesn't mean dimensions (seriously what?) and at last a random assumption that these aliens exist outside with their true forms.

I feel like 7D's removal makes sense but trying to get the 6D removed too is just... not it. At least not with these arguments.

 

[Qawsedf234]

A countable infinity would produce a finite sample from a finite sample, an uncountable infinity would not.

You can take the set of all Rational Numbers and divide it into Integers while both sets are Countable infinite. In fact two countable sets multiplied together is still a countable set. It needs to be multiplied by an uncountable set (like Irrational number) to reach Uncountably infinite afaik.

 

[FinePoint]

You can take the set of all Rational Numbers and divide it into Integers while both sets are Countable infinite. In fact two countable sets multiplied together is still a countable set. It needs to be multiplied by an uncountable set (like Irrational number) to reach Uncountably infinite afaik.

Those would be infinite samples, not finite samples.

This is more like finding infinite numbers between 1-5.

In a countably infinite set, like every whole number, taking 1-5 would just give you 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. It's only by starting with an uncountably infinite set that you can derive infinity from any finite section.

In 2D space the circle has a finite circumference, but if you take any section of it there's uncountably infinite points inside.

The reference in the show is that he was able to create an infinite multiverse of Ricks by just separating out the finite section of the 'curve' which contains Ricks from the total (unknown) size of the entire multiverse.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The reference in the show is that he was able to create an infinite multiverse of Ricks by just separating out the finite section of the 'curve' which contains Ricks from the total (unknown) size of the entire multiverse.

Do you have a link to the IRL mathematical concept you're saying the show is referencing.

 

[FinePoint]

Do you have a link to the IRL mathematical concept you're saying the show is referencing.

The specific arrangement of terms as, like, a proper noun is something they came up with, but based on the graph shown when talking about it, they appear to be referencing the properties of a Helix along with the obvious reference to Finiteness as well as throwing the word infinity around a lot.

Mathematically, a Helix is an infinite 3D function which graphs, well, a helix shape. (

). Across any specific curve of the helix (even a finite one), there exists uncountably infinite points.

In the context of the show, they're saying that there exists an infinite spiral of universes. Rick sectioned off a finite 'central curve' where all the infinite Ricks are. Within this curve, they've isolated a type of universe which contains only Rick, but there still exists uncountably infinite variants of Rick.

Mathematically, for example, if you sectioned off 1-2, you would have uncountably infinite various decimals in-between, but they'd always either be 2 or start with 1, you'd never have a number that starts with 3. Similarly, outside of that range you'd never have a number starting with 1. Similarly, it's possible to break up an uncountably infinite multiverse so that some finite section has Ricks and only Ricks as the smartest people. Their use of words like 'iteration' lends to a cyclical nature as well, which is fitting for a helix, in that an 'iteration' is just a repeat of a process. When they say a dumb rick comes from 16 iterations off the central finite curve, presumably they're saying that this dumb rick comes from 16 curves of the helix over from where the 'central' one is.

There is a comic panel which aligns more with what you're thinking, just showing four different types of Rick multiverses in circles, but this is directly contradicted by the (more canon) show, in which there are Ricks at least 16 iterations which don't fall into any of these categories, not to mention the show says it contains universes where Rick is the smartest and not just every universe with a Rick in it (which is why dumb Ricks are outside the Curve.)

 

[Qawsedf234]

, they appear to be referencing the properties of a Helix

Is it "appears to be" or "actually are"? Because it's a infinite section of a larger infinity, which can be accomplished with countable infinite sets.

Having said that, if the curve's name of finite is supposed to be literal, then sure. it's a finite space containing infinite universes, so they'll occupy an infinitesimal space which gives you an uncountable infinite number of universes.

 

[Antvasima]

It's a pretty popular verse, and this is seemingly a bit controversial so it may be needed, but of course don't do anything you're not comfortable with.

Well, I prefer to reserve pinging the staff members who are knowledgeable regarding tier 1-A to 0 for such occasions specifically, so for this revision I think that you can ping some other ones instead.

 

[ShionAH]

so they'll occupy an infinitesimal space which gives you an uncountable infinite number of universes.

Since you also agree with the 6-D from the crystal would this make the curve 7-D?

 

[FinePoint]

Well, I prefer to reserve pinging the staff members who are knowledgeable regarding tier 1-A to 0 for such occasions specifically, so for this revision I think that you can ping some other ones instead.

Feels like a lot of the lists are the same, but there are a few who are labeled under Low 1-C and not 1-A:

@Planck69 @Theglassman12 @DontTalkDT

 

[ShionAH]

The 5D example is 'fifth dimensional stomach juices' from an alien they're once again physically interacting with normally.

The 6D example is stated to have more dimensions but once again functions like a normal 3D object which Rick throws away.

Are you going to fix these two misinformations on the OP?

but at the same time 'dimensions' could be referring to a lot of different things here

Can you also explain how a "Polyvector" gem that extends infinitely into spatial dimensions means anything different? It's clearly not talking about universes

 

[FinePoint]

Is it "appears to be" or "actually are"? Because it's a infinite section of a larger infinity, which can be accomplished with countable infinite sets.

Having said that, if the curve's name of finite is supposed to be literal, then sure. it's a finite space containing infinite universes, so they'll occupy an infinitesimal space which gives you an uncountable infinite number of universes.

They appear to be because it's not actually elaborated on further than that, and hasn't actually been confirmed/denied.

So, the latter option of just being a countably infinite set inside of another countably infinite set is possible.

It is only through the context, the visuals they've shown, and the wording they use that leads me to believe they mean it more in the geometric sense of a finite curve containing infinite points on a larger graph.

AKA: We can't be sure what anything 'actually is', we're kind of forced to guess what's most likely, as per usual. Both explanations would logically accomplish the same thing for the sake of the show, it would really only change what we rate it here.

If you're the kind of person to default to the more conservative assumption rather than trying to pick a more likely side, that's fair too. Could always compromise with a Likely or Possibly.

 

[FinePoint]

Are you going to fix these two misinformations on the OP?

Can you also explain how a "Polyvector" gem that extends infinitely into spatial dimensions means anything different? It's clearly not talking about universes

What about the 5th dimensional goo is misinformation?

As for the pyramid being fake, sure, I can edit for that.

 

[ShionAH]

What about the 5th dimensional goo is misinformation?

They were only hurt by Rick's technology.

 

[FinePoint]

They were only hurt by Rick's technology.

I clarified.

Sorry. My intention wasn't to spread misinformation. I never read the comics myself, so I was going off the provided scan from the blog for the pyramid.

The other thing is less misinformation so much as not the full picture, but I elaborated anyway.

 

[MrTayman616]

As for the pyramid being fake, sure, I can edit for that.

I think it's still somewhat usable though.

Rick confirms their existence and he basically takes it believing/knowing he can interact with it normally. (While believing it was the real deal)

 

[FinePoint]

I think it's still somewhat usable though.

Rick confirms their existence and he basically takes it believing/knowing he can interact with it normally. (While believing it was the real deal)

Yes. The pyramid he handled being fake is actually bad for my argument.

Though I'd still argue it's irrelevant if it is HDE anyway. I more have a problem with extending this to the entire universe.

 

[ShionAH]

Sorry. My intention wasn't to spread misinformation. I never read the comics myself, so I was going off the provided scan from the blog for the pyramid.

No problem. I didn't mean to say "misinformation" as in you are doing it on purpose.

I don't see the whole idea of "Oh Rick didn't understand it was fake when he touched it" as if this isn't Rick. For all we know he knows or has something in his hands that's invisible but lets him touch it (as he confirms he can see higher dimensions with his augmentations), or maybe he didn't even notice because he is drunk. Or... this can go on and on. We are being way too unfair to the verse.

 

[ShionAH]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

Which staff members think what here so far?

 

[Vietthai96]

So, the Universe being Low 2-C is oke. The cosmology being Low 1-C is oke

6D and 7D removal is oke

 

[ShionAH]

So, the Universe being Low 2-C is oke. The cosmology being Low 1-C is oke

6D and 7D removal is oke

Unless I am wrong OP changed their mind about removing 6D, this only removes 7

MAIN argument against it was literally debunked directly by the comic itself, what are we doing

 

[FinePoint]

Unless I am wrong OP changed their mind about removing 6D, this only removes 7

MAIN argument against it was literally debunked directly by the comic itself, what are we doing

I changed my mind about the pyramid not being 6D, but I didn't change my mind about that not implying the entire universe has to be 6D as well.

 

[ShionAH]

I changed my mind about the pyramid not being 6D, but I didn't change my mind about that not implying the entire universe has to be 6D as well.

Yes. So you think the entire cosmology would be 6D rather than a single universe, you aren’t trying to remove it entirely are you?

 

[FinePoint]

Yes. So you think the entire cosmology would be 6D rather than a single universe, you aren’t trying to remove it entirely are you?

"The Entire Cosmology" containing a 6D object is valid, but I don't think anyone actually scales to that.

 

[Vietthai96]

Why 6D though?

 

[FinePoint]

Why 6D though?

Because there's a pyramid which Rick says extends into different spatial dimensions that Morty can't see.

Although I think someone pointed out this could also just be 5D since he can't really see time either and there may be some evidence it's treated as spatial here.

 

[Vietthai96]

Because there's a pyramid which Rick says extends into different spatial dimensions that Morty can't see.

Although I think someone pointed out this could also just be 5D since he can't really see time either and there may be some evidence it's treated as spatial here.

iirc, Udlmaster stated Time is also treated as a kind of spatial dimension

We see with the Time Cops its also treated as a Spatial Dimension they can walk through, exist in and build stuff in (such as the 4th Dimensional Time Cop HQ)

This is also being very generous that we ignore the fact a 4-D being got beat by a 3-D being and that a 5-D alien was killed by Summer with a blade.

 

[FinePoint]

iirc, Udlmaster stated Time is also treated as a kind of spatial dimension

Yeah.

Though I'd argue none of it is relevant to the more important cosmology which people scale to, which is what a single universe is. I don't think the existence of this object means the universe has to scale to it. It could be paradoxical, or only part of it, etc.

 

[Vietthai96]

Not really paradoxical since you can hold and perceive some dimensional slices while the rest are unable to be perceived. We literally have a version of string theory similar to this, which say the universe is simply a 3-dimensional slice of a larger super-universe with 11 dimensions and of course we can only perceive a 3-dimensional universe

So yeah the universe being 3-A to Low 2-C while the totality of the cosmology being higher isn't a contradiction

 

[FinePoint]

Not really paradoxical since you can hold and perceive some dimensional slices while the rest are unable to be perceived. We literally have a version of string theory similar to this, which say the universe is simply a 3-dimensional slice of a larger super-universe with 11 dimensions and of course we can only perceive a 3-dimensional universe

So yeah the universe being 3-A to Low 2-C while the totality of the cosmology being higher isn't a contradiction

Okay, so you agree with me on the universe itself being Low 2-C, or...?