Wuthering Waves Discussion Thread

[AlipheeseXIV]

Oh you mean this one? There's really not much information regarding this iirc, it might not even be a black hole but just a void/hole in space or something. This has nothing to do with the Necrostar though afaik?

 

[SweetDao]

You mean this one? There's really not much information regarding this iirc, it might not even be a black hole but just a void/hole in space or something. This has nothing to do with the Necrostar though afaik?

Actually, yeah it does, but I think the Necrostar inside the Tethys system is safe.

The Shorekeeper: “I see. Well, it is our utmost priority to deal with the Necrostar to prevent further harm. The only way to achieve this is by bringing the Necrostar to the Modulation Hall and initializing it within Tethys.”

Rover: “Gravity caused the destruction of [the] Port City of Guixu. Does the Necrostar have any connection to the Port City of Guixu?”

The Shorekeeper: “This Necrostar is the black hole that destroyed the Port City of Guixu. When the Lament struck the city, many were unable to escape and were drawn into the black hole. The data you brought back is directly related to that event. “

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Actually, yeah it does, but I think the Necrostar inside the Tethys system is safe.

Yeah but that's referring to it in the past, odd as it may be. It's not actually saying that the seemingly black hole thing currently in the sky, is the literal Necrostar that's in the data space. There's also the fact that there are multiple Necrostars, but well...it's really hard to say. Laments don't linger after they destroy civilizations, so there is no reason for it to stay there well after the fact

 

[SweetDao]

Yeah but that's referring to it in the past, odd as it may be. It's not actually saying that the seemingly black hole thing currently in the sky, is the literal Necrostar that's in the data space. There's also the fact that there are multiple Necrostars, but well...it's really hard to say. Laments don't linger after they destroy civilizations, so there is no reason for it to stay there well after the fact

Well, the Necrostar we get into during the quest is obviously fine. It looks like a black hole, behaves more or less like one, has an event horizon too, destroys stuff inside it, and also seems to replicate what happened IRL.

I'm just not sure about the Open-World one. It seems odd to me that it can just stay there, menacingly.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Well, the Necrostar we get into during the quest is obviously fine. It looks like a black hole, behaves more or less like one, has an event horizon too, destroys stuff inside it etc...

I'm just not sure about the Open-World one. It seems odd to me that it can just stay there, menacingly.

It is really weird yeah...it also sucks we won't be going back to Jinzhou for awhile to even find out...I'm actually kinda curious now. There's is the whole bs law change Solaris went through after the expansion of the etheric sea which I sent a ss of before, while it says gravity was the only law that remained generally the same. It's possible things not directly related to the planet's own gravity was affected as a result. Which could explain this in theory, but that's obviously nothing concrete

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Yeah idrk, there really ain't shit for this

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Ya'll think I should even make a CRT to upgrade the verse to tier 5, when we now have enough proof to make a strong argument for UES?

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I just don't want this CRT to take another 3-4 months to get accepted for something so minimal, when I can make another CRT that'll take just as long but have more stuff going for it

 

[SweetDao]

Ya'll think I should even make a CRT to upgrade the verse to tier 5, when we now have enough proof to make a strong argument for UES?

I can't say, the calc will stay there regardless, so that's your call really. It will certainly takes a lot of time to get accepted regardless tbf...

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I can't say, the calc will stay there regardless, so that's your call really. It will certainly takes a lot of time to get accepted regardless tbf...

True...I mean the hypothetical UES CRT, while it would get a decent amount of characters past what the Necrostar calc would get them at. Not all characters would scale to it, where as at least some other not super relevant characters could scale to the Necrostar calc, since at the end of the day it's just scaling/upscaling from H.Rover who manages to slice it. I guess I'll give it some more thought, I was going to make the CRT today, like around now but I'll wait a bit to mull it over

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Huh...well actually, the calc should only require one staff approval since it's a really low tier. Maybe I'll see if I can get anyone on it quicker than usual

 

[IStar0thh]

If you're implying you disagree with it being a black hole, explain why, if you're just sitting here saying all this yet don't disagree...what's the purpose of it?

I'm not disagreeing with anything, man. I just made a simple suggestion. That's all.

 

[IStar0thh]

So, does anyone know whether the “world” Leviathan created has any stated size or specific description regarding its scale?

 

[SweetDao]

So, does anyone know whether the “world” Leviathan created has any stated size or specific description regarding its scale?

I don't remember any specific, just that it was supposed to be "Heaven" iirc.

Maybe just Rinascita+septimont-sized or planet-sized.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

We can get some tier 4 rating for it because it has a source of sunlight and a lack of it, though frankly it's kinda whatever. Even if it is of tier 4 size, planet size, country size, Leviathan already has blatant feats of absorbing realms of tier 4 size via the realms created by Cristoforo, which have a day and night cycle as well as bodies of stars so

 

[EmilioRory10]

We can get some tier 4 rating for it because it has a source of sunlight and a lack of it, though frankly it's kinda whatever. Even if it is of tier 4 size, planet size, country size, Leviathan already has blatant feats of absorbing realms of tier 4 size via the realms created by Cristoforo, which have a day and night cycle as well as bodies of stars so

But then there's the etheric sea, do we know if Cristoforo's realms have real stars?

Actually better question, how much of the sky is fake due to the etheric sea? We know there's fake elements (such as the moon), is everything else fake too or are some stars real?

 

[Bsk_lyree]

Don't think I understand what you mean, what are you talking about?

I mean, can't scale through the necrostar event horizon? Because the event horizon itself means that light can't get out, but the rover itself can move freely.

 

[SweetDao]

But then there's the etheric sea, do we know if Cristoforo's realms have real stars?

Actually better question, how much of the sky is fake due to the etheric sea? We know there's fake elements (such as the moon), is everything else fake too or are some stars real?

iirc, it's said that the moon is a fake one, because not only is it projected but it also explains why it can be different from one region to another.

Realistically speaking, if we go by the first cinematic we get upon launching the game, the Etheric Sea would be rather close to the planet's radius, a few kilometers above the ground. I assume the coherent size would be Planet+moon size imo.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

But then there's the etheric sea, do we know if Cristoforo's realms have real stars?

There's absolutely zero reason to assume the stars are fake without any shred of evidence

Actually better question, how much of the sky is fake due to the etheric sea? We know there's fake elements (such as the moon), is everything else fake too or are some stars real?

The etheric sea just wraps around the planet, it's not like wuwa has no universe or something. It's simply that it coats Solaris, 3.1 blatantly shows you this

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I mean, can't scale through the necrostar event horizon? Because the event horizon itself means that light can't get out, but the rover itself can move freely.

Oh you mean that? The problem with that is VSB rarely if ever grants speed to black hole stuff, because escaping a black hole's pull can just be explained by LS. It's really not feasible to get speed values from this unfortunately

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Realistically speaking, if we go by the first cinematic we get upon launching the game, the Etheric Sea would be rather close to the planet's radius, a few kilometers above the ground. I assume the coherent size would be Planet+moon size imo.

It's definitely more than a few kilometers off the ground, because Avinoleum in of itself is around that high up. It's probably closer to the height just before you would realistically start hitting the planets karman line. In line with other such games with this plot, as well as the evidence we have currently this seems more likely

 

[Bsk_lyree]

Actually better question, how much of the sky is fake due to the etheric sea? We know there's fake elements (such as the moon), is everything else fake too or are some stars real?

In fact, the etheric sea does not display a random illusion but a real natural phenomenon that has occurred.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Actually yeah, that's absolutely true. In terms of sheer technicality what you see in the sky is a "snippet" that the etheric sea captures from various other timelines and dimensions, in that sense it can be likened to a projection/illusion sure...but in actuality it's not like what it shows was purely constructed based off a persons mind and false nonexistent images. Since the etheric sea is projecting all the things it has seen across time and every dimension, they are in fact real, as in, they do exist within the verse somewhere

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

iirc, it's said that the moon is a fake one, because not only is it projected but it also explains why it can be different from one region to another.

Realistically speaking, if we go by the first cinematic we get upon launching the game, the Etheric Sea would be rather close to the planet's radius, a few kilometers above the ground. I assume the coherent size would be Planet+moon size imo.

Well current patch does shows sentinels comes from outer space?
So I think we can safely say Jue and imperator domains stars are real

 

[SweetDao]

Well current patch does shows sentinels comes from outer space?
So I think we can safely say Jue and imperator domains stars are real

Yeah, they were brought thanks to Exostrider, but the reasoning is a bit of a stretch to me.

 

[SweetDao]

Actually yeah, that's absolutely true. In terms of sheer technicality what you see in the sky is a "snippet" that the etheric sea captures from various other timelines and dimensions, in that sense it can be likened to a projection/illusion sure...but in actuality it's not like what it shows was purely constructed based off a persons mind and false nonexistent images. Since the etheric sea is projecting all the things it has seen across time and every dimension, they are in fact real, as in, they do exist within the verse somewhere

I mean, yeah, but the keyword would still be "displaying something", even if, for example, it displays a galaxy from far away, it doesn't mean that "the stars themselves" are real within the Etheral Sea.

I think with that info, there is really a concern regarding some "sky" in all the areas of the game. Not saying that "everything has to be a projection/fake" but depending on how (and when) a certain realm was created, it might be leaning toward it. Like, if someone created a Sonoro sphere for training and it has a night sky, I wouldn't think the Sonoro Sphere is "literally" Multi SS level, imo.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I mean, yeah, but the keyword would still be "displaying something", even if, for example, it displays a galaxy from far away, it doesn't mean that "the stars themselves" are real within the Etheral Sea.

Where did I ever say that the stars themselves are real in the etheric sea? I was just saying this proves that there is a space beyond Solaris (I'm actually baffled we're having this discussion) honestly for the etheric sea itself, it's pretty irrelevant if they are or aren't, the etheric sea itself spans every dimension and every timeline, so something as minimal as a body of stars is largely irrelevant to it's grand scale

I think with that info, there is really a concern regarding some "sky" in all the areas of the game. Not saying that "everything has to be a projection/fake" but depending on how (and when) a certain realm was created, it might be leaning toward it. Like, if someone created a Sonoro sphere for training and it has a night sky, I wouldn't think the Sonoro Sphere is "literally" Multi SS level, imo.

Well yeah, but Cristoforo's sonoro is not a training sonoro? I'm confused, are you just saying this in general or smth? Because I don't see the direct correlation that would have to Cristoforo here

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Yeah, they were brought thanks to Exostrider, but the reasoning is a bit of a stretch to me.

How is that a stretch? Can you elaborate? Because I think we're somewhat failing to understand each other on some stuff

 

[Bsk_lyree]

Yeah, they were brought thanks to Exostrider, but the reasoning is a bit of a stretch to me.

Why? Can you explain?

 

[SweetDao]

Damn I get to sleep and I get two barrels on my head lol, I'll explain later
(Just joking btw)

 

[SweetDao]

Where did I ever say that the stars themselves are real in the etheric sea? I was just saying this proves that there is a space beyond Solaris (I'm actually baffled we're having this discussion) honestly for the etheric sea itself, it's pretty irrelevant if they are or aren't, the etheric sea itself spans every dimension and every timeline, so something as minimal as a body of stars is largely irrelevant to it's grand scale

I mean... I think we're having a parallel debate here.

We both agree that the "Universe" (as in, something beyond Solaris) exists. I think that much is uncontroversial.

We also know, from the game itself, that the Etheric Sea cut off the planet from the rest of the universe (hence why Space Travel came to a standstill). Again, I think we both agree on this.

What I'm a bit curious about, exactly, is the "it spans every dimension and timeline". Maybe I got confused by your phrasing, but are you saying it's a Multiversal structure or are you merely saying "it exists in alternate dimensions/timelines, but is still the same size in each timeline" ? if it's the former, I disagree; if it's the latter, I think it's fine. Of course, maybe I missed scans, so feel free to send some if they can help.

What I'm confused about is why it has to do with what I stated in the earlier message? Don't you agree that if someone created, right now, a Sonoro Sphere with a "night sky," it wouldn't be "literally" a Multi-SS realm? Wouldn't it be more coherent to assume it's just a projection? iirc, there is a Forgery Challenge from the very early game that has a sun/moon inside it (idk, kinda ambiguous), so would you say it has necessarily that size at minimum?

Well yeah, but Cristoforo's sonoro is not a training sonoro? I'm confused, are you just saying this in general or smth? Because I don't see the direct correlation that would have to Cristoforo here

Okay, so here's how I see it. Feel free to disagree or offer counterarguments if you feel like something isn't accurate.

We know that at an unknown date in the past, Solaris-3 was a "normal planet" and everyone lived normally. The civilization itself even managed (to some degree) to begin exploring space. Then, the Etheric Sea suddenly appeared, but it was in a progressive state (it was stated during the lab section of the last quest), it didn't "directly" cover the entirety of the planet. Since then, people tried to study it and so on, but to no avail, since, well, they couldn't do anything against it.

Now, if you agree with that postulate, we'll go on with Sentinels. We know that sentinels were brought to Solaris-3 with Exostriders and (seemingly, assuming the CBT content is still somewhat relevant, especially seeing the recent quests), they were created by Rover's Homeworld. I think it's not at all relevant to link this with the potential of their personal Sonoro Sphere, because it has no direct implications. Or, to put it more bluntly, "what would it achieve for them to be able to have a Sonoro Sphere with a starry sky when their goal was to protect the civilization they were assigned to" ?

Regarding the stuff about Cristoforo, I don't particularly remember exactly, but from what I get from the wiki:

Lupa: My "death"... Well, I'll start from the very beginning: My journey to win the championship.
Lupa: I had failed to expose the family's match-fixing. After being deceived by Domina Julia and winning the title on my own, my memories became a blur... I was probably under some form of control.
Lupa: The last thing I clearly remember was standing in the Central Hub in the Vale of Glory, pressing my spear into something that resembled a control panel. Then the Dark Tide began to surge.
Lupa: In the end, all of Septimont was swallowed by it.
Lupa: I'm not sure when all this started, or where the line between the reality I knew and the Sonoro world created by the Fractsidus began to blur.
Lupa: In those three days of the story where Cartethyia didn't rescue me, I would always die on the first day, helplessly watching as my home slowly crumbled to dust.

Cartethyia: When I sensed the Threnodian's power here in Septimont, I immediately set out to find its source.
Cartethyia: It was quite sudden. I slipped through the smallest cracks to enter this Sonoro, which severed my contact with the outside world.
Cartethyia: I found Lupa in the city. She had lost her role.

Lupa: ((‍Rover‍) hasn't learned this yet, but I now remember traveling with Cartethyia. I can't be in the real world.)
Lupa: This is a Sonoro created by the Fractsidus. It's a realm of stories.
Lupa: The story of the Great Agon lasts only three days. Before Cartethyia came here, I... had wandered this same bloody story more times than I can count.
Lupa: The Dark Tide consumes Septimont, and that monstrous half-human, half-sea creature grows ever larger... Is this the Fractsidus plan? To feed it with Septimont's ruins?
Lupa: A script... Yes, this Sonoro is like a book of plays.

Cristoforo: This play is nothing more than an "amplifier," designed to nurture the Threnodian's lingering power. Once it grows large enough, I'll overlay the Sonoro onto reality.
Cristoforo: All that's needed is for Domina Julia to select the right champion. Heh, swapping out the protagonist is hardly a challenge.
Cristoforo: Once the sea creature grows within the cradle I've forged from the Dark Tide, the hymn of "Journeying Paradise" will spread from Septimont across Rinascita.

I think it's pretty clear that it would make no sense for Cristoforo's realm to be like, star level if not higher in range, when we get explicit statements that it's only when people entered Septimont that they got "pulled in this Sonoro Sphere". And Cristoforo saying that the "Journeying Paradise" will spread from Septimont to Rinascita kinda proves the point too. If hypothetically, the "JP" was big enough to encompass stars, it's also big enough to encompass the planet.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

What I'm a bit curious about, exactly, is the "it spans every dimension and timeline". Maybe I got confused by your phrasing, but are you saying it's a Multiversal structure or are you merely saying "it exists in alternate dimensions/timelines, but is still the same size in each timeline" ? if it's the former, I disagree; if it's the latter, I think it's fine. Of course, maybe I missed scans, so feel free to send some if they can help.

We don't know whether it's the same size in each timeline or not and I'm not trying to firmly argue whether it is or isn't atm, there's no information to make an accurate assessment regarding that. Still, even assuming in the absolute worst case that it was the same size in each timeline (I'd bet money that's later proven to not be the limit) a body of stars would still be insignificant in comparison to what it has achieved

What I'm confused about is why it has to do with what I stated in the earlier message? Don't you agree that if someone created, right now, a Sonoro Sphere with a "night sky," it wouldn't be "literally" a Multi-SS realm?

I would go with VSB's default interpretation of starry skies, which it explicitly rates at 4A

Wouldn't it be more coherent to assume it's just a projection?

No, I've never, not even once, remotely understood where this logic of "assuming the stars are fake" in x fiction comes from. Not only because it's a ridiculously rare phenomena, but most importantly to do so without any amount of explicit proof or evidence is honestly so absurdly disingenuous I can't even begin to get behind it. Atp, we may as well argue if cities are city sized, if countries are country sized, if a car is a car, is grass actually green? Like where do we draw the line? Just where you think? There's no end to it man. If you do that, all you dawg

iirc, there is a Forgery Challenge from the very early game that has a sun/moon inside it (idk, kinda ambiguous), so would you say it has necessarily that size at minimum?

Well, allow me to answer a question with a question. What evidence makes you believe it wouldn't have that size at bare minimum? There is just frankly, way more you have to assume and prove in order to confidently say that it isn't that size, then you would to say it is that size, occam's razor man.

On a more literal note though, this forgery challenge, idk. Forgery challenge sonoro's are fundamentally different from sonoro's achieved through actual resonance abilities because they are primarily technological (at least most we see) and are explicitly meant to be of smaller than average size (the Rinascita one's even blatantly say they just capture a moment in time) so yes these in particular are very ambiguous

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Okay, so here's how I see it. Feel free to disagree or offer counterarguments if you feel like something isn't accurate.

We know that at an unknown date in the past, Solaris-3 was a "normal planet" and everyone lived normally. The civilization itself even managed (to some degree) to begin exploring space. Then, the Etheric Sea suddenly appeared, but it was in a progressive state (it was stated during the lab section of the last quest), it didn't "directly" cover the entirety of the planet. Since then, people tried to study it and so on, but to no avail, since, well, they couldn't do anything against it.

Now, if you agree with that postulate, we'll go on with Sentinels. We know that sentinels were brought to Solaris-3 with Exostriders and (seemingly, assuming the CBT content is still somewhat relevant, especially seeing the recent quests), they were created by Rover's Homeworld. I think it's not at all relevant to link this with the potential of their personal Sonoro Sphere, because it has no direct implications. Or, to put it more bluntly, "what would it achieve for them to be able to have a Sonoro Sphere with a starry sky when their goal was to protect the civilization they were assigned to" ?

I mean there are in fact, plenty of things that this would be capable of achieving. But they aren't confirmed or anything, just speculation

Regarding the stuff about Cristoforo, I don't particularly remember exactly, but from what I get from the wiki:

I think it's pretty clear that it would make no sense for Cristoforo's realm to be like, star level if not higher in range, when we get explicit statements that it's only when people entered Septimont that they got "pulled in this Sonoro Sphere".

Ok, so I believe this is where the confusion comes in. For starters, this is a very weak argument, and the sole fact of why that's the case is due to sonoro's being pocket realities. By very definition a pocket reality is a realm that is either of less than universal size on the inside OR appear as less than universe sized objects when observed from the outside. This is textbook PRM, using the argument that "well Cristoforo's realm only drags people in when they enter Septimont" does not in any way, shape, or form, prove that the inside of his realm is not in fact tier 4, because that's the entire way that pocket realities function to begin with. They are supposed to be smaller on the outside.

There's also the fact that his sonoro is not JUST covering septimont, he has made countless realms that all are overlayed like pieces of paper in his fiction. So even without what I said previously, it would still be a pretty egregious lowballed claim to say it's only the size of Septimont. Lastly, and most importantly, we have a blatant statement that Cristoforo purposely made the sonoro like this, so that he could revive Leviathan and allow it to absorb the realms he created. In fact, he can literally overwrite reality with his sonoro at any point. The reason he didn't is because he was waiting for Leviathan to grow strong enough before overlaying it, so again, I really don't think this on its own acts as sufficient evidence against the size of his sonoro

And Cristoforo saying that the "Journeying Paradise" will spread from Septimont to Rinascita kinda proves the point too. If hypothetically, the "JP" was big enough to encompass stars, it's also big enough to encompass the planet.

Well yeah...it was actually stated that the JP would engulf/end Solaris or something along those lines, like it was very much a "world ending" kind of crisis. I'll check for the scan again, but I know there was a mention of it being implied to do that. Just that because Leviathan and the JP are rooted to Rinascita, it just starts in Rinascita.

Edit: Also because as absurd as it is, Leviathan was only functioning with a fragment of it's power during the 2.7 story quest so...

 

[SweetDao]

Damn, I kinda missed having genuine conversation with people lol, I'll answer you in a bit (a lot, in fact, since you said a lot)

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Yeah sure tyt

 

[SweetDao]

We don't know whether it's the same size in each timeline or not and I'm not trying to firmly argue whether it is or isn't atm, there's no information to make an accurate assessment regarding that. Still, even assuming in the absolute worst case that it was the same size in each timeline (I'd bet money that's later proven to not be the limit) a body of stars would still be insignificant in comparison to what it has achieved

I mean... Right now the only thing we're sure of is that it cut off the planet from the rest of the world. That it encompasses the planet is obvious, but anything else? Debatable.

I would go with VSB's default interpretation of starry skies, which it explicitly rates at 4A

Standards so weird it might as well rewrite history

No, I've never, not even once, remotely understood where this logic of "assuming the stars are fake" in x fiction comes from. Not only because it's a ridiculously rare phenomena, but most importantly to do so without any amount of explicit proof or evidence is honestly so absurdly disingenuous I can't even begin to get behind it. Atp, we may as well argue if cities are city sized, if countries are country sized, if a car is a car, is grass actually green? Like where do we draw the line? Just where you think? There's no end to it man. If you do that, all you dawg

I mean, I think you're missing the point. I don't like the weird tendency a lot of verse (or a lot of interpretations) goes with the whole "there is no explanation, it exists, therefore it's real", because by arguing "in the gap of explanation" you can claim anything without needing any proof, because every single interpretation is right under the guise of "well, it's not explained, but it's not incoherent either".

The issue here is that, for example, the city of Guixu in Wuwa is stated repeatedly (heck, even in the name) to be a city, but in the open world, it's probably like, idk, 10 buildings and maybe a kilometer wide at best. There is an obvious dissonance between what is stated and what is shown. BUT, we don't care about that, because we have statements, chronology, description, etc etc. You get the idea.

In most of the "Starry Sky" stuff (and not limited to Wuwa, btw), people argue in the gap when there is no explanation whatsoever. "Yeah, there are stars in the background of the level", cool. If at least they were mentioned, like idk MC saying something, the guy who created it saying something, really anything, sure. Here? There is nothing at all as far as I'm aware, and the worst part is that it's very much contradictory with a lot of the scaling of the verses.

Well, allow me to answer a question with a question. What evidence makes you believe it wouldn't have that size at bare minimum? There is just frankly, way more you have to assume and prove in order to confidently say that it isn't that size, then you would to say it is that size, occam's razor man.

I mean, it's quite easy, we know that Sonoro Sphere can either be created from the past, "present", or future. For example, in Lahai-Roi, one of the Forgery Challenges is about Lahai-Roi demise (so I assume it's the future, or maybe the past, I'm not sure since it's a bit ambiguous), but regardless:

1: If it's in the past, we would need to know "when" exactly, because just like right now, the stars/sun/moon in the sky are fake (Etheric Sea), it could've just as well projected fake stuff in the sky. Heck, we literally know that Lahai-Roi is UNDERGROUND, so saying it's a real sun/moon/sky would be a strech, for example. (not saying you said this btw, just explaining)
(I think one of the Forgery Challenge has a moon or something, but I might be misremembering, you get the idea)

2: If it's in the future, it goes kinda the same way, since we wouldn't know if the Etheric Sea is still there or not (we do see black holes in the sky tho)

Of course, I took Lahai-roi example because it's simple, but look at the description regarding the Port City's Forgery Challenge:

This Sonoro Sphere captures the never-ending din of countless engines, a constant soundtrack to the bustling metropolis that was once drenched in molten metal.

Like, it has no purpose to go beyond what it records, the city "during the lament". Because, under what you claim, it would not only encompass the city, but also the whole planet AND the star in the sky.

Of course, we can mention these too:

This Sonoro Sphere captures the essence of dawn and dusk, as a fiery crystal sparks through the forest, illuminating its surroundings in a blaze of light.
This Sonoro Sphere captures the sunlight shed upon the forest. When day and night collide, it condenses into an eternal crystal of flame.
This Sonoro Sphere preserves the moonlit forest as it was before the Tacet Field consumed it. The same light also created the terrifying nightmare on the second night.

But the first two, if I'm not wrong, are the same environment as the first one I quoted, so again, while there ARE visual changes, you don't need it to be any bigger than it already is. It's really "just" a change in light if anything.

There is also the argument that, when you check for any sonoro sphere, there is an obvious limited size/space. I'm not saying in terms of playable area, that would be ridiculous, but get into an open-field Forgery Challenge (or anything else really) and you'll see it's clearly not extending as far as what it would suggest. You could always say "Well, yeah, the game will not render light-years, it's just not possible," and I agree with this, but in most games, if you see a moon or a sun in the sky, you would just assume it's a real one BECAUSE it's reality. Here, it's a pseudo-realm of "unknown size" that encompasses a single phenomenon (the fall of a city, in the example)".

I legit think there should be some changes with the standards because the whole "well, we see stars, therefore it's multi-SS" when it's acknowledged by nothing and no one is kinda insane to me. But again, it's not against you or Wuwa directly, really.

I mean there are in fact, plenty of things that this would be capable of achieving. But they aren't confirmed or anything, just speculation

Of course, I'm not saying it's impossible; I'm more or less saying it's not substantiated. (for now).
Imo, if Jué, for example, could really rewind the time of the universe freely, it would solve a lot of problems we had ngl. (Of course, right now he's weakened/not available, but there was a point where he was at his prime.)

Ok, so I believe this is where the confusion comes in. For starters, this is a very weak argument, and the sole fact of why that's the case is due to sonoro's being pocket realities. By very definition a pocket reality is a realm that is either of less than universal size on the inside OR appear as less than universe sized objects when observed from the outside. This is textbook PRM, using the argument that "well Cristoforo's realm only drags people in when they enter Septimont" does not in any way, shape, or form, prove that the inside of his realm is not in fact tier 4, because that's the entire way that pocket realities function to begin with. They are supposed to be smaller on the outside.

Yes, but the WHOLE QUEST happens within the boundaries of Septimont, since the moment we "entered it", I'm almost certain we never got outside of Septimont at any point in time.

Similarly, just like the "sky" right now in reality wouldn't be tier 4 (due to the Etheric sea), why would Cristoforo's realm, which is literally a copy of Septimont and the surroundings, create a real star/moon when in the real world, there is no such thing in the first place?

You're basically saying that "instead of copying what exists in the real world, as they exist, Cristoforo made everything real," which definitely needs substantiation imo. Because if you accept this, then why stop at just a Sun? Out of necessity, it would mean he also created all the stars present in the sky? Additionally, what about Phrolova during the 2.0 quest? I'm not sure if it can be considered a sonoro sphere or some sort of domain, but she did this, too. But it was clearly not Multi-SS in size despite covering a lot of the map. You can dismiss it as some sort of pocket reality or space manipulation or reality warping, but the point is (and I hope we'll agree on this) those are very much not real stars here.

There's also the fact that his sonoro is not JUST covering septimont, he has made countless realms that all are overlayed like pieces of paper in his fiction.

Yeah, but that much doesn't necessarily prove your point. Let's postulate that Septimont is "roughly" a country. He could've made 100 times Septimont during those events (we don't know how much exactly iirc) or even 1000 stories, and at most (and I'm really lenient here) it would be equal to slightly larger than our planet in terms of surface. Compared to the distance/size of the whole solar system (we'd assume Earth-Sun distance + their size), it would probably need millions of times more Septimonts to even equal it.

So even without what I said previously, it would still be a pretty egregious lowballed claim to say it's only the size of Septimont.

I obviously meant the "size of a single story world", not the whole stack of stories. Stack of stories would be unknown, really.

Lastly, and most importantly, we have a blatant statement that Cristoforo purposely made the sonoro like this, so that he could revive Leviathan and allow it to absorb the realms he created.

Yeah, he made it so that the "disaster" of Septimon's ruins will happen again, and again, and again, feeding the Threnodian until it becomes strong enough to do whatever it wants to do:

Lupa: ((‍Rover‍) hasn't learned this yet, but I now remember traveling with Cartethyia. I can't be in the real world.)
Lupa: This is a Sonoro created by the Fractsidus. It's a realm of stories.
Lupa: The story of the Great Agon lasts only three days. Before Cartethyia came here, I... had wandered this same bloody story more times than I can count.
Lupa: The Dark Tide consumes Septimont, and that monstrous half-human, half-sea creature grows ever larger... Is this the Fractsidus plan? To feed it with Septimont's ruins?
Lupa: A script... Yes, this Sonoro is like a book of plays.

What makes the Threnodian stronger/larger is the fact that the dark tide consumes SEPTIMONT SPECIFICALLY. Everything repeats itself. In the end, the Dark Tide consumes it, Threnodian gets stronger, repeat until full. That's the thing he was going for. At no point does his plan/mission need a star/sun/moon or whatever, for example.

Lupa: In the end, all of Septimont was swallowed by it.
Lupa: I'm not sure when all this started, or where the line between the reality I knew and the Sonoro world created by the Fractsidus began to blur.
Lupa: In those three days of the story where Cartethyia didn't rescue me, I would always die on the first day, helplessly watching as my home slowly crumbled to dust.

Also, I'm confused about something. So, according to you, Cristoforo would create a realm that encompasses Septimont and, at the very least, a Sun. I'm not sure the exact size, but we'll assume it's star level to avoid meaningless details. My question is as follows: if his point was to make the Threnodian stronger by any means, why would he lose precious energy to encompass a Sun instead of just covering the entire planet for the Dark Tide to consume it?

You might want to argue "well, the Great Agon was the perfect timing and the Dark Tide is specifically in Septimont, so there would be no point to extend it to Huanglong since it wouldn't even be there in the first place". I would agree with this, then what would be the purpose of a real sun then? If you imagine it as a geometrical structure, it would look giga goofy imo.

Also, here's what Phrolova has to say after the massive research she has done regarding the Beyond:

Rover: "Artificial Sonoro Spheres have a short duration and are unstable. Additionally, the influence of Fortes can cause unintended changes to them."
Rover: "Creating a large, stable Sonoro capable of sustaining a reality for all, would entail significant costs. Additionally, the process would demand the sustained application of my Resonance ability."

(It's Rover talking because he's reading the notes)

And, as you've seen during the quest, the Beyond is simply the village of Phrolova and all the people who died due to the unknown object falling on it. If she already is struggling to make it a reality when it's on such a small scale, you can imagine that you wouldn't waste any power you have to encompass something that isn't needed. That goes back to Cristoforo. Maybe he's more talented, has more energy, or his Forte makes it simpler to create an artificial world, but regardless of which route you take, it's kind of strange that he wouldn't maximize his profit with the optimal strategy.

In fact, he can literally overwrite reality with his sonoro at any point. The reason he didn't is because he was waiting for Leviathan to grow strong enough before overlaying it, so again, I really don't think this on its own acts as sufficient evidence against the size of his sonoro

Yeah. We can agree that "overwrite" here means "make it reality", but we both agree that it wouldn't mean dozens of Septimonts would suddenly spawn in the world, it's more about "in the story world, Septimon is in ruin, poof, I'll make it reality".

Well yeah...it was actually stated that the JP would engulf/end Solaris or something along those lines, like it was very much a "world ending" kind of crisis.

Was it? I'm not sure. If you have a scan, I'd like it. But again, technically speaking, the first Threnodian Ovathrax is also very much a "world-ending" crisis, and he wouldn't destroy the planet in a single blow (at least from what we've seen so far), just cause ruin everywhere until Humanity can't survive.

Just that because Leviathan and the JP are rooted to Rinascita, it just starts in Rinascita.

One would think that the Leviathan would have enough power to completely cover the whole planet after what Cristoforo did. Also, isn't it rooted in Septimont specifically instead?

Rover: (Fenrico spoke of a... Paradise. What does it mean?)
Rover: (And "save Rinascita's souls"... Was he pointing to the source of the anomaly in Rinascita?)
Fenrico: I heard curses... not loud, but deep... I deserve them.
Fenrico: Soon, It will gather enough strength to herd the people and drown Rinascita beneath the Dark Tide.
Fenrico: The Gem isn't the true heart of the problem. The false Journeying Paradise has created an illusion of everlasting peace, hiding the real source of the catastrophe.
Fenrico: I will remain here to stem the Dark Tide's spread.
Fenrico: Now, I can sense it clearly. The fluctuations from the Paradise are not in Ragunna, but in Septimont...

And again, it says "From Septimont TO Rinascita," so it starts from one point to the next:

Cristoforo: Once the sea creature grows within the cradle I've forged from the Dark Tide, the hymn of "Journeying Paradise" will spread from Septimont across Rinascita.

Edit: Also because as absurd as it is, Leviathan was only functioning with a fragment of it's power during the 2.7 story quest so...

Sure, he could be way stronger or just a little or just gain additional abilities, we don't know for sure besides what happened directly.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I mean... Right now the only thing we're sure of is that it cut off the planet from the rest of the world. That it encompasses the planet is obvious, but anything else? Debatable.

Well we at least know that it captures events from across time, space and every dimension, that much is blatantly told to us

Standards so weird it might as well rewrite history

Well a starry sky is undoubtedly 4A, because of the distance those stars would have to be...and the encompassing range? Not really here to argue standards, but that's what it is rn, at least afaik

I mean, I think you're missing the point. I don't like the weird tendency a lot of verse (or a lot of interpretations) goes with the whole "there is no explanation, it exists, therefore it's real", because by arguing "in the gap of explanation" you can claim anything without needing any proof, because every single interpretation is right under the guise of "well, it's not explained, but it's not incoherent either".

Fair enough but at the end of the day, its pretty undeniable that going out of your way to prove things of this nature don't follow the most simple and basic interpretation is a far more strenuous task then just...saying x thing is the way it is because it is? Like this is the basis of things like axiomatic logic, it is undoubtedly much easier to conclude that the stars are real...because how would they be fake? For the record, it's not like I'm completely denying that the stars have the potential of being fake, but like...there has to be a better reason behind it than there is to say that they're real, because it's absurd and goes against general common sense and what's established. Sure, fiction can be fiction, but even fiction tends to follow real world rules. So at least for me personally it requires more evidence because it's a more bodacious claim, idk, maybe you can hook a staff with this, in which case my opinion and way of thinking is ultimately worth shit but that's just me

The issue here is that, for example, the city of Guixu in Wuwa is stated repeatedly (heck, even in the name) to be a city, but in the open world, it's probably like, idk, 10 buildings and maybe a kilometer wide at best. There is an obvious dissonance between what is stated and what is shown. BUT, we don't care about that, because we have statements, chronology, description, etc etc. You get the idea.

I mean...the city we see is after its destruction, of course its size is not going to match a real city. I get what you're trying to say, but I just wanted to add that

In most of the "Starry Sky" stuff (and not limited to Wuwa, btw), people argue in the gap when there is no explanation whatsoever. "Yeah, there are stars in the background of the level", cool. If at least they were mentioned, like idk MC saying something, the guy who created it saying something, really anything, sure. Here? There is nothing at all as far as I'm aware, and the worst part is that it's very much contradictory with a lot of the scaling of the verses.

If we go the contradictory route man, we're just vibe checking it at that point. Like, do I think Atreus from GOW is L1C? Hell ******* no, the mf never even has a building level feat. Guess what though? He's L1C on VSB, Goku is this star level fighter who NO SELLS attacks from other people comparable to himself, yet he gets hurt by a rock being tossed at him. Like this ends up just going into a completely separate topic that is its own can of worms atp

I mean, it's quite easy, we know that Sonoro Sphere can either be created from the past, "present", or future. For example, in Lahai-Roi, one of the Forgery Challenges is about Lahai-Roi demise (so I assume it's the future, or maybe the past, I'm not sure since it's a bit ambiguous), but regardless:

1: If it's in the past, we would need to know "when" exactly, because just like right now, the stars/sun/moon in the sky are fake (Etheric Sea), it could've just as well projected fake stuff in the sky. Heck, we literally know that Lahai-Roi is UNDERGROUND, so saying it's a real sun/moon/sky would be a strech, for example. (not saying you said this btw, just explaining)
(I think one of the Forgery Challenge has a moon or something, but I might be misremembering, you get the idea)

2: If it's in the future, it goes kinda the same way, since we wouldn't know if the Etheric Sea is still there or not (we do see black holes in the sky tho)

These are artificial sonoro though...we can't compare them to sonoro's that are created through resonance abilities, much less Cristoforo who's already exception to the rules as is, being able to warp reality, manipulate the most fundamental aspects of existence and literally manipulate plot. They don't have these other extras backing them up like he does. Which makes the claim less and less ridiculous the more you know

Like, it has no purpose to go beyond what it records, the city "during the lament". Because, under what you claim, it would not only encompass the city, but also the whole planet AND the star in the sky.

Of course, we can mention these too:

But the first two, if I'm not wrong, are the same environment as the first one I quoted, so again, while there ARE visual changes, you don't need it to be any bigger than it already is. It's really "just" a change in light if anything.

There is also the argument that, when you check for any sonoro sphere, there is an obvious limited size/space. I'm not saying in terms of playable area, that would be ridiculous, but get into an open-field Forgery Challenge (or anything else really) and you'll see it's clearly not extending as far as what it would suggest. You could always say "Well, yeah, the game will not render light-years, it's just not possible," and I agree with this, but in most games, if you see a moon or a sun in the sky, you would just assume it's a real one BECAUSE it's reality. Here, it's a pseudo-realm of "unknown size" that encompasses a single phenomenon (the fall of a city, in the example)".

I legit think there should be some changes with the standards because the whole "well, we see stars, therefore it's multi-SS" when it's acknowledged by nothing and no one is kinda insane to me. But again, it's not against you or Wuwa directly, really.

Well yeah...let's get a bit back on topic, it's not like I'm trying to argue these artificial training sonoro's are tier 4 size. It's not the same as Cristoforo's, yeah, sure, seeing stars therefore it's multi-SS can be insane to you that's fine. But well...as I said that's just the standards afaik, I don't want us to go on a tangent because the thing I am arguing about is specifically Cristoforo who is just an entirely different discussion then these completely random training sonoro's

Yes, but the WHOLE QUEST happens within the boundaries of Septimont, since the moment we "entered it", I'm almost certain we never got outside of Septimont at any point in time.

Yes, but that doesn't really have to do with the size of the sonoro. They don't leave Septimont because the plot requires them to stay in Septimont, the most blatant example of this is Cartethyia who manages to jump between multiple of Cristoforo's stories, yet she always stays inside Septimont within them. Because its the plot.

Similarly, just like the "sky" right now in reality wouldn't be tier 4 (due to the Etheric sea), why would Cristoforo's realm, which is literally a copy of Septimont and the surroundings, create a real star/moon when in the real world, there is no such thing in the first place?

You're basically saying that "instead of copying what exists in the real world, as they exist, Cristoforo made everything real," which definitely needs substantiation imo. Because if you accept this, then why stop at just a Sun? Out of necessity, it would mean he also created all the stars present in the sky? Additionally, what about Phrolova during the 2.0 quest? I'm not sure if it can be considered a sonoro sphere or some sort of domain, but she did this, too. But it was clearly not Multi-SS in size despite covering a lot of the map. You can dismiss it as some sort of pocket reality or space manipulation or reality warping, but the point is (and I hope we'll agree on this) those are very much not real stars here.

Okay, we need to make a very big clarification here. The "sky" right now, is REAL it is not fake, the IMAGES in the sky are what's being projected by the etheric sea. Very, VERY important distinction to be made. The moon and real stars DO EXIST in the real world, the etheric sea just stops you from REACHING these things. That is, an entirely separate thing from saying that they are not real at all and don't exist, because they are real and they absolutely DO exist. People just can't reach them through regular means anymore. That's like saying because of the roof over your house, that the stars outside said roof don't exist

Why would his realm create these things? There are plenty of reasons, but obviously nothing for you to take to heart. Given Cristoforo's powers and abilities, there is absolutely nothing stopping him from creating real stars, moons, or whatever. At least, in terms of actual potential to do these things, his abilities literally allow him to manipulate the fundamental aspect of the verse that shapes EVERYTHING including stars and moons. Whether he has the power/energy to do that, would be more important in the debate I feel than "can he" do it, because if the question is just "can he" generally speaking, I think it's a pretty resounding yes. He has the tools, we just don't know if he has the means. Is the kinda situation we're in atp

Yeah, but that much doesn't necessarily prove your point. Let's postulate that Septimont is "roughly" a country. He could've made 100 times Septimont during those events (we don't know how much exactly iirc) or even 1000 stories, and at most (and I'm really lenient here) it would be equal to slightly larger than our planet in terms of surface. Compared to the distance/size of the whole solar system (we'd assume Earth-Sun distance + their size), it would probably need millions of times more Septimonts to even equal it.

Well feast your eyes, because that's where we get into the countless wank, VSB interpretation of the word is already above things like millions or billions as a baseline so...yeah...

Yeah, he made it so that the "disaster" of Septimon's ruins will happen again, and again, and again, feeding the Threnodian until it becomes strong enough to do whatever it wants to do:

What makes the Threnodian stronger/larger is the fact that the dark tide consumes SEPTIMONT SPECIFICALLY. Everything repeats itself. In the end, the Dark Tide consumes it, Threnodian gets stronger, repeat until full. That's the thing he was going for. At no point does his plan/mission need a star/sun/moon or whatever, for example.

I mean yeah bro, I'm not trying to say his plan needs a moon or a star. What we do know is that when Leviathan absorbs a realm within the stories, it absorbs the entire "page" of the book. So, if a page is of tier 4 size...then she'd have to have absorbed the entire thing. Of course, lets not go back and forth about whether it's tier 4 or not, the point is regardless of it's size, Leviathan absorbs the entire thing

Also, I'm confused about something. So, according to you, Cristoforo would create a realm that encompasses Septimont and, at the very least, a Sun. I'm not sure the exact size, but we'll assume it's star level to avoid meaningless details. My question is as follows: if his point was to make the Threnodian stronger by any means, why would he lose precious energy to encompass a Sun instead of just covering the entire planet for the Dark Tide to consume it?

You might want to argue "well, the Great Agon was the perfect timing and the Dark Tide is specifically in Septimont, so there would be no point to extend it to Huanglong since it wouldn't even be there in the first place". I would agree with this, then what would be the purpose of a real sun then? If you imagine it as a geometrical structure, it would look giga goofy imo.

Well my argument wouldn't be that, it'd be that everything is made of frequencies in the verse. This includes "completely pointless" shit like stars, rocks, etc. So it's a very simple plan, feed until full. The more he adds, the more Leviathan grows. Sure, at that point you can argue "well why doesn't he just create completely empty realms with nothing but stars in them" and aside from that just being completely boring and utterly contradictory to Cristoforo's character, the real reason is because by adding people, a "story" a "plot" if you will, it allows Cristoforo to create a breeding ground of self sufficient frequency enhancers. Human emotions, fear, happiness, terror, anger, death, life, these are all frequencies, they breed them, all to increase Leviathan's strength, who as a Threnodian, needs to feed on exactly that

Also, here's what Phrolova has to say after the massive research she has done regarding the Beyond:

(It's Rover talking because he's reading the notes)

And, as you've seen during the quest, the Beyond is simply the village of Phrolova and all the people who died due to the unknown object falling on it. If she already is struggling to make it a reality when it's on such a small scale, you can imagine that you wouldn't waste any power you have to encompass something that isn't needed. That goes back to Cristoforo. Maybe he's more talented, has more energy, or his Forte makes it simpler to create an artificial world, but regardless of which route you take, it's kind of strange that he wouldn't maximize his profit with the optimal strategy.

This honestly goes less into scaling and more into just how the literal characters are written, Cristoforo doesn't care about "maximizing" his energy like Phrolova, the dude literally wants to make stories and see how shit plays out, its his fetish. Quite literally, he created Avidius wasted resonance energy on a literal NPC who barely accomplished anything other than getting Corrupted by the Threnodian, and only because he wanted to see how far Avidius (a person he created) could go...like...he doesn't care

Yeah. We can agree that "overwrite" here means "make it reality", but we both agree that it wouldn't mean dozens of Septimonts would suddenly spawn in the world, it's more about "in the story world, Septimon is in ruin, poof, I'll make it reality".

I mean yeah, but it's not like that's because "countless Septimont's don't exist" or something. It's because again, the purpose of making a countless amount of them was to make Leviathan grow in power by absorbing them

Was it? I'm not sure. If you have a scan, I'd like it. But again, technically speaking, the first Threnodian Ovathrax is also very much a "world-ending" crisis, and he wouldn't destroy the planet in a single blow (at least from what we've seen so far), just cause ruin everywhere until Humanity can't survive.

Okay...relax there man...what we've seen of Ovathrax is quite literally nothing. Dreamless is just a vanguard of it (the same way False Sovereign is to Leviathan) and in fact, barring Aleph-1 Ovathrax quite literally has the strongest feats to argue that it could absolutely destroy the planet in a single blow, because the etheric sea is literally its waveworn phenomena, and that engulfed the planet "in a single blow" once it expanded

One would think that the Leviathan would have enough power to completely cover the whole planet after what Cristoforo did.

Except, Leviathan's physical form was completely destroyed in those realms, so it didn't retain any of it's power it got at that time. So it's actually not an antifeat or anything, it's consistent with what occurred in 2.4

Also, isn't it rooted in Septimont specifically instead?

It's rooted in Rinascita as a whole, because it's rooted in all of it's citizens (both those in Septimont and Ragunna)

And again, it says "From Septimont TO Rinascita," so it starts from one point to the next:

Oh that? Yeah but this was because the Sentinel's access as well as the dark tide being sealed in the tower in Septimont during 2.6. A large amount of Leviathan's frequency was in Septimont specifically at that time, which resulted in it's descent being the place where it's frequencies converged

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

because the etheric sea is literally its waveworn phenomena, and that engulfed the planet "in a single blow" once it expanded

Not it's waveworn phenomena sorry, but it's "tied" to it's waveworn phenomena (retroact rain)

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Also Jinhsi reverses time in the new event...considering what we know regarding the 2nd temporal program she had before taking Jue's temporal mandate. I think we can use this event to give her time rewinding funnily enough

 

[SweetDao]

Well we at least know that it captures events from across time, space and every dimension, that much is blatantly told to us

The Etheric Sea is made of remnant energy right? Well, it would mean it can project stuff from past, present and future, obviously. I'm fine with it.

Well a starry sky is undoubtedly 4A, because of the distance those stars would have to be...and the encompassing range? Not really here to argue standards, but that's what it is rn, at least afaik

Oh yeah, 100% with you here. I'm just pointing out that the standards for Pocket Dimension are really weird. (Tempted to make a staff thread about it, but I'll talk with some staff first about it)

fair enough but at the end of the day, its pretty undeniable that going out of your way to prove things of this nature don't follow the most simple and basic interpretation is a far more strenuous task then just...saying x thing is the way it is because it is? Like this is the basis of things like axiomatic logic, it is undoubtedly much easier to conclude that the stars are real...because how would they be fake? For the record, it's not like I'm completely denying that the stars have the potential of being fake, but like...there has to be a better reason behind it than there is to say that they're real, because it's absurd and goes against general common sense and what's established. Sure, fiction can be fiction, but even fiction tends to follow real world rules. So at least for me personally it requires more evidence because it's a more bodacious claim, idk, maybe you can hook a staff with this, in which case my opinion and way of thinking is ultimately worth shit but that's just me

I mean, I wouldn't say that I'm going "out of my way", I'm just searching for "proof" rather than "well, it exists, therefore it is like this". I'm the kind of person who largely prefers some tangible evidence rather than just "arguing in the gap".

Again, if, for example, we have a verse like DB, with Goku and Beerus fighting in outer space (or close to it, idk BoG was kinda wack with distance), we don't need an explanation that the stars are real, because it's inferred by a whole tons of stuff, including direct mention of them (surely?).

When we get into pocket reality or "non-normal universe/reality", it's normal for me not to jump to a conclusion by mere visuals. I think a simple mention of the background would infinitely help with making the case more real. Like, I don't USE THAT ARGUMENT, I want to be clear with that, but you should probably understand that most of the time, the presence of starry skies/sun/moon in the background is more related to the developers not wanting a big empty place as a skybox. In my opinion, if the sun that is portrayed in the background isn't mentioned at all, it might as well not exist from a scaling perspective.

I mean...the city we see is after its destruction, of course its size is not going to match a real city. I get what you're trying to say, but I just wanted to add that

Yeah, of course, we agree on that. But regardless, even the "remains" is probably "bigger" in terms of lore rather than physical representation. I mean it's a bit like Genshin having, idk, 10km max in terms of "physical area" to play/walk, when in fact each region is around country-sized. (Although in those cases, idk how calc would work, but that's irrelevant here.)

If we go the contradictory route man, we're just vibe checking it at that point. Like, do I think Atreus from GOW is L1C? Hell ******* no, the mf never even has a building level feat. Guess what though? He's L1C on VSB, Goku is this star level fighter who NO SELLS attacks from other people comparable to himself, yet he gets hurt by a rock being tossed at him. Like this ends up just going into a completely separate topic that is its own can of worms atp

I wouldn't call it vibe checking, but more so "wanting some tangible proof it exists". Obviously, some stuff you mention is also problematic, but sometimes Outliers exist (we may agree or disagree with that notion), but also, most of the time, those problems arise because the authors don't "see the strength of the character as we see it".

Just so we're clear. If the context makes it clear, there is no need for a mention of those stars. For example, if the MC is fighting the god of the verse that created the universe and said God created a miniature realm with stars, yeah, it's infinitely more likely to assume they are a realm than just "background decoration".

Well yeah...let's get a bit back on topic, it's not like I'm trying to argue these artificial training sonoro's are tier 4 size. It's not the same as Cristoforo's, yeah, sure, seeing stars therefore it's multi-SS can be insane to you that's fine. But well...as I said that's just the standards afaik, I don't want us to go on a tangent because the thing I am arguing about is specifically Cristoforo who is just an entirely different discussion then these completely random training sonoro's

Again, I understand you don't want to dabble too much, but why, exactly, would the random Sonoro Sphere not "be tier 4" if they also have the sun? I'm not asking this to be redundant or annoying; I legit want to understand why you make that differentiation.

Right now, the only difference you're telling me (in this message) is "training sonoro are artificial, but Cristoforo is done via his forte, so that's different", okay, sure, if you want, but what does that different entails exist?

Yes, but that doesn't really have to do with the size of the sonoro. They don't leave Septimont because the plot requires them to stay in Septimont, the most blatant example of this is Cartethyia who manages to jump between multiple of Cristoforo's stories, yet she always stays inside Septimont within them. Because its the plot.

And also because each of those stories encompasses Septimont specifically? The whole point is that the story is to be repeated again and again, so yeah, she would logically jump from one version of Septimont to another.

Okay, we need to make a very big clarification here. The "sky" right now, is REAL it is not fake, the IMAGES in the sky are what's being projected by the etheric sea. Very, VERY important distinction to be made. The moon and real stars DO EXIST in the real world, the etheric sea just stops you from REACHING these things. That is, an entirely separate thing from saying that they are not real at all and don't exist, because they are real and they absolutely DO exist. People just can't reach them through regular means anymore. That's like saying because of the roof over your house, that the stars outside said roof don't exist

Okay. Maybe I didn't explain too much.

The sky IS real. What we see ON IT (moon, sun, weird ass constellations) is projected and therefore NOT REAL. It's like a hologram, a drawing, whatever.

Yes, I agree that the moon and the stars, galaxies and Rover's homeworld STILL VERY MUCH EXIST BEYOND THE ETHERIC SEA.

BUT that wasn't my point of contention. My point is that WHY would Cristoforo (who is remaking the PRESENT Septimont, who is UNDER THE ETHERIC SEA, who projects FAKE STUFF) replicate not the FAKE STUFF PROJECTED ON THE SKY but the REAL STARS AND SUN BEYOND THE SEA THAT HE CAN'T SEE.

I just want to be clear so there's no ambiguity. When I say "fake stuff", I'M NOT SAYING THAT THE STARS OR THE MOON DOESN'T EXIST BEYOND THE ETHERIC SEA. I'm just saying that WHAT WE SEE ON IT, THEIR REPRESENTATION, IS NOT THE REAL THING AND THEREFORE FAKE. It's like I projected a starry sky on my ceiling, the starry sky COULD exist beyond our planet, but MY CEILING wouldn't be Multi-SS because that's just an image.

I hope I explained myself well so that we can both go on the same case. (Also, the CAPS words are just to stress some point, I'm not angry nor want to be rude, just clarifying in case).

Why would his realm create these things? There are plenty of reasons, but obviously nothing for you to take to heart. Given Cristoforo's powers and abilities, there is absolutely nothing stopping him from creating real stars, moons, or whatever. At least, in terms of actual potential to do these things, his abilities literally allow him to manipulate the fundamental aspect of the verse that shapes EVERYTHING including stars and moons. Whether he has the power/energy to do that, would be more important in the debate I feel than "can he" do it, because if the question is just "can he" generally speaking, I think it's a pretty resounding yes. He has the tools, we just don't know if he has the means. Is the kinda situation we're in atp

I'm not certain about that. Maybe if he had a lot of energy, he could, like you said, but that seems unsubstantiated to me. Not saying you're wrong or anything, I'm neutral about the statement you're making.

You didn't tackle Phrolova's case. What are your thoughts on it?

Well feast your eyes, because that's where we get into the countless wank, VSB interpretation of the word is already above things like millions or billions as a baseline so...yeah...

Man you can't say that... That's such an unfunny ending to me...

I mean yeah bro, I'm not trying to say his plan needs a moon or a star. What we do know is that when Leviathan absorbs a realm within the stories, it absorbs the entire "page" of the book. So, if a page is of tier 4 size...then she'd have to have absorbed the entire thing. Of course, lets not go back and forth about whether it's tier 4 or not, the point is regardless of it's size, Leviathan absorbs the entire thing

Did it say that he absorbed "the page itself" ? Because from what I recall and from the few quotes I sent, it seems more about absorbing Septimont inside those pages than "the page itself". I mean, doesn't it indirectly say the page still exists and "bleed" into one another due to the overlap?

Well my argument wouldn't be that, it'd be that everything is made of frequencies in the verse. This includes "completely pointless" shit like stars, rocks, etc. So it's a very simple plan, feed until full. The more he adds, the more Leviathan grows. Sure, at that point you can argue "well why doesn't he just create completely empty realms with nothing but stars in them" and aside from that just being completely boring and utterly contradictory to Cristoforo's character, the real reason is because by adding people, a "story" a "plot" if you will, it allows Cristoforo to create a breeding ground of self sufficient frequency enhancers. Human emotions, fear, happiness, terror, anger, death, life, these are all frequencies, they breed them, all to increase Leviathan's strength, who as a Threnodian, needs to feed on exactly that

I agree with you that everything in the verse has frequency. Similarly, I don't think your point is that bad either, but I still think there are serious issues with seeing it like that. If you assume that each time he "ate" a story/world, he ate "4-C" worth of energy, and assuming we go on with "countless = millions" then you're arguing for Leviathan to be... idk, welll into Multi-SS level if not higher. Meaning that Phoebe would be Multi-SS too, and it would probably chainscale a lot of characters if not everyone.

I do think you made a point with the Threnodian eating "human emotions" tho, and that would explain a lot more things instead of eating the "physical place" itself.

This honestly goes less into scaling and more into just how the literal characters are written, Cristoforo doesn't care about "maximizing" his energy like Phrolova, the dude literally wants to make stories and see how shit plays out, its his fetish. Quite literally, he created Avidius wasted resonance energy on a literal NPC who barely accomplished anything other than getting Corrupted by the Threnodian, and only because he wanted to see how far Avidius (a person he created) could go...like...he doesn't care

Sure, but Avidius "still technically" had some importance in the plot. It's not like he's a random NPC that has one line of dialogue or no relevance.

My point was more about "sustaining a sonoro sphere and making it a reality" needs a lot of energy, like a lot LOT, as Phrolova explained. If Phrolova is already struggling with merely "a village worth of size and people", imagine Cristoforo recreating every single NPC, buildings, places AND the sun/moon. That isn't tenable. Sure, technically, you could say the Sonoro isn't instantiated in reality until he does so, but I think the point still stands that it needs a lot of energy.

I mean yeah, but it's not like that's because "countless Septimont's don't exist" or something. It's because again, the purpose of making a countless amount of them was to make Leviathan grow in power by absorbing them

Well, "exist" I don't know. I depends on what you exactly mean by "exist". Do they exist in the Sonoro sphere? Yes, they probably exist as some sort of overlapping dimensions. Do they exist "in reality" ? Not until Cristoforo instantiate them in it.

Okay...relax there man...what we've seen of Ovathrax is quite literally nothing. Dreamless is just a vanguard of it (the same way False Sovereign is to Leviathan) and in fact, barring Aleph-1 Ovathrax quite literally has the strongest feats to argue that it could absolutely destroy the planet in a single blow, because the etheric sea is literally its waveworn phenomena, and that engulfed the planet "in a single blow" once it expanded

My point is that any lament and any threnodian is "world-ending" crisis potential. When Geshu Lin fought it (and it was the true one, I think?) it didn't directly blow up the planet either.

I'm not sure I understood what you meant by the retroact rain/Etheric Sea and the link to Ovathrax?

Except, Leviathan's physical form was completely destroyed in those realms, so it didn't retain any of it's power it got at that time. So it's actually not an antifeat or anything, it's consistent with what occurred in 2.4

Did it? I don't remember. Because, from what I recall, while they did "avoid" the worst, the dark tide still very much got fed a lot, hence why, following up, there was the plot with the Journeying Paradise starting to appear more and more.

It's rooted in Rinascita as a whole, because it's rooted in all of it's citizens (both those in Septimont and Ragunna)

This is fair yeah, but I meant the "physical location of it". It would first appear "in Septimont," then would expand to Ragunna and such.

Oh that? Yeah but this was because the Sentinel's access as well as the dark tide being sealed in the tower in Septimont during 2.6. A large amount of Leviathan's frequency was in Septimont specifically at that time, which resulted in it's descent being the place where it's frequencies converged

Sure, but my point is that it's a progressive process, not instantaneous.