SM Universe Revision

[ProfectusInfinity]

Cosmology Blog for reference.

The Universe in Sailor Moon is stated to be spatially and temporally infinite in the official translation notes that come with the Eternal Edition of the Manga. The exact definition of "Static Universe" that the notes cite can also be found here, here and here. Essentially, the idea that there are an Infinite amount of Stars in an Infinite Space is derived from Thomas Digges' conception of a Static Universe.

So this is the main crutch of the argument, and it's honestly the most flawed part. It should be easier to address since it requires fewer scans though. The translation note in question (questionable source, but whatever) is a reference to this page from the final chapter explaining the lambda power, and a statement from it: "This is the ultimate Lambda Power of the Cosmos Crystal—the power to turn everything into a static universe." There's an obvious implication we get from interpreting this. The notion revealed is that the Lamda power, which Usagi accesses at the very end of the manga, would turn the universe into a static one. にする is the term from the raws that translates into "to turn into," and the particle に indicates a change in state. This all goes to show that the universe currently or prior to this is in fact, not a static one. Simple chain of logic. This naturally means that any feats prior to this that relied on the universe being static/infinite would have to be changed. It is also important to note that even after this, the universe did not become static since they ultimately chose not to destroy the galaxy cauldron (the actual context was that with its destruction, the universe would no longer have new celestial bodies and therefore become static), meaning it was just an intention, not an occurrence.

On top of all this, let's return to the translation note point. The notion here about a static universe (one that is both temporally and spatially infinite) comes from this translator's note for the Sailor Moon manga. The note's purpose was to expand on what the term "Lambda power" means and where it was derived from. As you can see, it's merely taking an idea from Einsteinian cosmology and using that term (the cosmological constant, represented by the character lambda [λ]) for the power's namesake. It doesn't say that the universe in Sailor Moon is a temporally and spatially infinite one (and even if it did say that, translator notes are generally not canon information for stuff like this), just that this is what the Einsteinian model was about (which also isn't completely accurate, Einstein's original static cosmos model is about a cosmos that isn't expanding, not necessarily one that is spatially infinite, but I digress).

In Chapter 35 Arc 3, Sailor Moon says she feels lonely and scared while they were riding an elevator to the bottom of Mugen Academy. Sailor Uranus responds by saying that her solitude isn't "real solitude" and says "real solitude" spreads out to infinity like where she and the other Outer Guardians came from. The Outer Sailor Guardians are posted outside the Solar System, far from each other. Uranus is comparing 'real solitude' to the greater Universe that's outside the Solar System that the Outer Guardians protect.

And yes she does say the word for Infinite

こんなものを孤独とはいわないよ孤独とはもっと無限にひろがるものなんだあたしたちのいた場所 みたいに

"I wouldn't call this loneliness... loneliness is more like an infinite expanse, like the place where we used to be."

ひろがる means to extend out to

This is not the same as expanding. Expanding implies there is still Space in the process of movement, extending means the space extends out to infinity already.

Here's the translation we acquired from a translation helper.

Immediately just by reading the statement, it's pretty indisputable that the text is purely poetic, but let's dive deeper than just pointing out that it's hyperbole. Instead, I'll demonstrate an alternate interpretation which I believe is more valid and applicable, and requires fewer assumptions. We might run into translation interpretation issues now, but the general idea being conveyed is simple: Uranus here says that the loneliness that Moon currently feels "isn't really loneliness" (or, rather, not comparable to the following). Instead, Uranus says true loneliness spreads out/extends out even more to infinity. The term もっと (motto/more) here is crucial, since the comparison here is between two states of loneliness of extremely different degrees, the way one might commonly refer to extreme sadness/happiness or any other emotion as "infinite sadness/happiness/etc." It's also important to explore the context of the last part, which says "like where come from/like the place where we were."

Why's this important? You see, these outer sailor scouts/senshi are actually from the outer solar system beyond Jupiter (who is part of the main group, the "inner sailor scouts/senshi"). The relevant part here, is that the degree of loneliness being described (loneliness that spreads out more infinitely) is not being contrasted with the "greater universe" here as the original argument suggests, leading to the strange original interpretation that the outer solar system is an infinite expanse, or that the 'planets past Jupiter are outside the solar system,' a very awkward recurring argument which the series itself doesn't even support as it calls those regions the outer solar system. The infinite loneliness here is being compared to Usagi's (relatively) petty loneliness that is nothing to these outer senshi. But what about the "where we come from" part? Surely, since these outer senshi come from the outer solar system (a.k.a., part of the outer space), it would still imply a spatial comparison to the universe anyway, right? Actually, no. Let's get context from this next scan, which comes directly after the main panel for this argument. As you can see, these senshi were originally stationed on their indivudual planets/realms at the far reaches of the Solar System. In their own words, "There was no one around," and that "We were all alone," as well as "With no one to help us, they were solitary places."

The "infinite loneliness" they talk about here is the profound feeling of loneliness of being stationed where they currently were/are. As depicted through their speech, it is wholly about their degree of loneliness which is infinitely expansive, since they come from a very solitary place with no one around and no one to help them. There is no implication or point of comparison with the spatial/geometric size of the universe throughout this entire sequence. The term infinite here is merely a superlative used to describe the sheer magnitude of the solitude of the far reaches of the solar system compared to Usagi's. To put it simply, this sequence is not making any comparisons to outer space at all, or using the term "infinite" in reference to anything besides the sheer difference in scale between their loneliness, or making any comparison with the greater universe. On top of being clear poetry/hyperbole as mentioned before, there's a more valid interpretations that requires less leeway and a less charitable interpretation of the text, so occam's razor applies here. In a nutshell, infinite sailor moon universe should be downgraded alongside anything that relied on that. This is my comment explaining the exact changes that would have to be made.

Also please avoid trolling.

Agree: Killerdrone123, BoastJr, UnoRebaixadO, IvarUHQ, Planck69, Hasty12345, TiltedFN, Vietthai96, LephyrTheRevanchist, Qawsedf234

Disagree: Iamunanimousinthat, HenshinIntervention, Saqphire, Zanesucksatlife, AsterReal

 

[Killerdrone123]

After reading through the arguments carefully I agree with the thread i seriously don't know how the static universe logic got accepted if the universe needs to be turned into static one i.e infinite then it was never infinite to begin with

 

[BoastJr]

Yeah the infinite loneliness stuff seems metaphorical.

Count me in on agreeing with this thread

 

[UnoRebaixadO]

That makes sense. honestly, it's amazing that no one questioned this before.

 

[IvarUHQ]

I obviously agree with this thread!

 

[Vietthai96]

@Reiner04 @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @FinePoint @Random-Helper323 @DarkDragonMedeus @Theglassman12 @Planck69 @Elizhaa @LephyrTheRevanchist @Qawsedf234

Sorry for the ping, but i was requested to ping you guys

 

[RM97]

In a nutshell, infinite sailor moon universe should be downgraded alongside anything that relied on that.

So what are the suggested tiers if I may ask?
I know Arc 4 relied on the Universal feats bc of Mirror World/Universe. So it'll probably be 3-A now.
But what else?

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

So what are the suggested tiers if I may ask?
I know Arc 4 relied on the Universal feats bc of Mirror World/Universe. So it'll probably be 3-A now.
But what else?

The effect on tiering would be minimal since most Sailor Moon characters are Tier 2 or Immeasurable, so there aren't many High 3-A or Infinite speed ratings for the verse. Just a few profiles at best would be changed.

 

[Planck69]

Yeah, this change makes sense to me.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Iamunanimousinthat @HenshinIntervention @AsterReal

I will refrain from voting until the supporters get a chance to retort.

 

[AsterReal]

@Iamunanimousinthat @HenshinIntervention @AsterReal

I will refrain from voting until the supporters get a chance to retort.

I will try to respond later. Thank you for letting us know about this.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Commenting so i follow this thread, will comment later as well.

But just to let you know, there are no ratings relied upon the sailor moon universe being infinite.

 

[Random-Helper323]

What's being decided here?

 

[AsterReal]

What's being decided here?

The infinity of the Sailor Moon Main Universe.

 

[Random-Helper323]

The infinity of the Sailor Moon Main Universe.

I know, but are there any conclusions so far?

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

I know, but are there any conclusions so far?

There hasn't been much back and forth, so it depends on further evaluation. Do you have any personal thoughts thus far?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I know, but are there any conclusions so far?

Thread just started, supporters haven't made a counterargument yet.

 

[AsterReal]

We will present our counterargument after refining it. We are putting some things in order.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I'll take a good look in a bit. I think I also won't vote until supporters have made their counter arguments.

 

[Hasty12345]

Agree with the thread

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The main piece of evidence for infinite sailor moon comes from the manga. While the eternal edition says, "turns everything into the static universe", OP is also leaving out the kodansha translation which we include on Moon's profile as it provides more context in our opinion. The kodansha scan here:




states "restores everything to the static cosmos". In both scans, the sentence right before it highlights the Lambda's powers restorative power. OP also neglects to give context that the galaxy is being restored as the conversation happens: all the dead senshi are being revived, and being reborn from the cauldron and returning to their planet. The planets and stars themselves are being healed after galaxies destruction. I'll just show the clip from the movie to quickly get the point across:



And in the manga, we find that this restoration isn't just local, it occurs across spacetime, as Galaxia's and Chaos's shenanigans have altered spacetime and is warping it, the lambda power would have also undone this.

The interpretation that the line is about turning a finite universe to an infinite universe doesn't really make sense here. But the interpretation that the lambda power restored things back to the static cosmos clearly does. And the translations notes clearly states is the model for a static universe is what's being referenced here. (also while nitpicking Japanese symbols, we should also remember that Japanese is context heavy language and cannot be translated directly by what's just written)

The other things are just supporting details.

But I do want to just take the time to mention that this argument about the scene with Uranus being "purely poetic" isn't really a good argument. It is poetic. And so what? That doesn't negate the meaning of the words. If the universe is infinite, then comparing your loneliness to its infinity, doesn't mean that the universe isn't infinite. If Uranus was a mermaid and the text compared her loneliness to the depth and darkness of the ocean, it would be silly to act as though that's just purely poetic and has no physical basis. If an author says something is as bright as burning flame, then we can infer in that story then that flames are bright. And again, this is supporting evidence. We can only use this because we have the definite proof from the translation notes which say it clearly.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Putting down my thoughts here as well, I will try and make this short and to the point.

Cosmology Blog for reference.

So this is the main crutch of the argument, and it's honestly the most flawed part. It should be easier to address since it requires fewer scans though. The translation note in question (questionable source, but whatever) is a reference to this page from the final chapter explaining the lambda power, and a statement from it: "This is the ultimate Lambda Power of the Cosmos Crystal—the power to turn everything into a static universe." There's an obvious implication we get from interpreting this. The notion revealed is that the Lamda power, which Usagi accesses at the very end of the manga, would turn the universe into a static one. にする is the term from the raws that translates into "to turn into," and the particle に indicates a change in state. This all goes to show that the universe currently or prior to this is in fact, not a static one. Simple chain of logic. This naturally means that any feats prior to this that relied on the universe being static/infinite would have to be changed. It is also important to note that even after this, the universe did not become static since they ultimately chose not to destroy the galaxy cauldron (the actual context was that with its destruction, the universe would no longer have new celestial bodies and therefore become static), meaning it was just an intention, not an occurrence.

The official translations do not say this, in fact. This is a reoccurring crutch for most of the CRT.
The translation states "The Power to turn everything into a Static Universe", it doesn't say anything beyond that. In fact other translations use the term for restoration as well. The overall context of the scene even supports the idea that they're restoring something, as Iam pointed out.

Furthermore, regardless of what translation you appeal to, the statement doesn't say the Universe isn't a Static Universe. That's a separate claim not supported by the text. Saying that it has the power to do something doesn't lead to the conclusion that the Universe isn't already a Static Universe. That's a whole different sentence! OP is conflating the power to do something with an imaginary previous state.

It's like a Car Mechanic telling someone, "I can fix cars" and then concluding that their car is broken. Just because they can fix cars doesn't mean their car is broken, that's a whole other sentence!

In other words, nothing was debunked here, it's just disingenuous wordplay.

On top of all this, let's return to the translation note point. The notion here about a static universe (one that is both temporally and spatially infinite) comes from this translator's note for the Sailor Moon manga. The note's purpose was to expand on what the term "Lambda power" means and where it was derived from. As you can see, it's merely taking an idea from Einsteinian cosmology and using that term (the cosmological constant, represented by the character lambda [λ]) for the power's namesake. It doesn't say that the universe in Sailor Moon is a temporally and spatially infinite one (and even if it did say that, translator notes are generally not canon information for stuff like this), just that this is what the Einsteinian model was about (which also isn't completely accurate, Einstein's original static cosmos model is about a cosmos that isn't expanding, not necessarily one that is spatially infinite, but I digress).

The OP doesn't note that the Ultimate Lambda Power is an expression of the Cosmos Crystal. When talking about the namesake of the Ultimate Lambda Power, the translation notes also included the connection between Lambda (the Cosmological Constant) and how a Static Universe is conceived. The naming convention is done by Naoko on purpose which is what the Translators have highlighted and provided explanation for.

OP also claims that the translation notes are non-canon without evidence, the Translation Notes come with the Manga, they are printed along with it in the book. These details are explicitly approved by Naoko and are considered alongside the re-printed manga. OP now has to prove that they're somehow not reliable or usable to understand elements in the Manga.

In other words, this is a bunch of fun-facts about what the translator's notes do, not why it doesn't apply to the Manga.

Here's the translation we acquired from a translation helper.
Immediately just by reading the statement, it's pretty indisputable that the text is purely poetic, but let's dive deeper than just pointing out that it's hyperbole. Instead, I'll demonstrate an alternate interpretation which I believe is more valid and applicable, and requires fewer assumptions. We might run into translation interpretation issues now, but the general idea being conveyed is simple: Uranus here says that the loneliness that Moon currently feels "isn't really loneliness" (or, rather, not comparable to the following). Instead, Uranus says true loneliness spreads out/extends out even more to infinity. The term もっと (motto/more) here is crucial, since the comparison here is between two states of loneliness of extremely different degrees, the way one might commonly refer to extreme sadness/happiness or any other emotion as "infinite sadness/happiness/etc." It's also important to explore the context of the last part, which says "like where come from/like the place where we were."

This doesn't directly address the overall point (nor debunks it), this comparison is used as supporting evidence for the Universe being considered Infinite.
Also, if this is from a translation helper, why is the translation from Discord? Shouldn't it be on site?

Why's this important? You see, these outer sailor scouts/senshi are actually from the outer solar system beyond Jupiter (who is part of the main group, the "inner sailor scouts/senshi"). The relevant part here, is that the degree of loneliness being described (loneliness that spreads out more infinitely) is not being contrasted with the "greater universe" here as the original argument suggests, leading to the strange original interpretation that the outer solar system is an infinite expanse, or that the 'planets past Jupiter are outside the solar system,' a very awkward recurring argument which the series itself doesn't even support as it calls those regions the outer solar system.

Yes, that's the whole point! Uranus is saying that her conception of True Loneliness is something more infinitely extending just like where they came from, it's a comparison.
As for the Outer System thing, I believe that was my mistake. Although it doesn't actually affect the point; the Outer Guardians (with Pluto being outside of Space-Time) are ludicrously far away from the Inner Solar System. That is all.

The infinite loneliness here is being compared to Usagi's (relatively) petty loneliness that is nothing to these outer senshi. But what about the "where we come from" part? Surely, since these outer senshi come from the outer solar system (a.k.a., part of the outer space), it would still imply a spatial comparison to the universe anyway, right? Actually, no. Let's get context from this next scan, which comes directly after the main panel for this argument. As you can see, these senshi were originally stationed on their indivudual planets/realms at the far reaches of the Solar System. In their own words, "There was no one around," and that "We were all alone," as well as "With no one to help us, they were solitary places."

The "infinite loneliness" they talk about here is the profound feeling of loneliness of being stationed where they currently were/are. As depicted through their speech, it is wholly about their degree of loneliness which is infinitely expansive, since they come from a very solitary place with no one around and no one to help them. There is no implication or point of comparison with the spatial/geometric size of the universe throughout this entire sequence.

The term infinite here is merely a superlative used to describe the sheer magnitude of the solitude of the far reaches of the solar system compared to Usagi's. To put it simply, this sequence is not making any comparisons to outer space at all, or using the term "infinite" in reference to anything besides the sheer difference in scale between their loneliness, or making any comparison with the greater universe. On top of being clear poetry/hyperbole as mentioned before, there's a more valid interpretations that requires less leeway and a less charitable interpretation of the text, so occam's razor applies here. In a nutshell, infinite sailor moon universe should be downgraded alongside anything that relied on that.

Before I respond to the chunk of OP's comparison, I must bring something that they neglected to mention. Sailor Uranus, Neptune, Pluto and Moon are all stuck in an elevator. Usagi then says that she feels Solitude (Lonely). She had motion sickness as well. That's why when Uranus claimed that True Solitude extends more infinitely that it stuck out to me. Onto why I think my interpretation makes sense, since this is a battle of interpretations after all.

Spoiler: Yap

OP is forgetting something rather important, the reason why they're so lonely is because they're stationed far from each other and far from their Kingdom; their daily task is to fend off Invaders coming from the rest of the Universe, they're scouting threats coming from Space itself. Their main source of distress is in fact distance. Know why that's odd?
The Senshi are able to sense others from that very distance. This is why I brought up the examples for Senshi being able to sense things from other dimensions, across further cosmic distances, with the Outer Guardians themselves watching and hearing their Kingdom fall from their posts.

For beings capable of watching and hearing from vast cosmic distances, you'd think they'd be less lonely. But they are not. Uranus claiming that the Solitude she and her comrades felt extending infinitely is a very specific comparison, especially since all of them can hear and watch from millions to billions of miles away at the very least. And I have listed weaker Guardians that can feel and hear voices from even larger distances, from across other dimensions.

When Uranus made the comparison between "True Solitude", which she says is extending more infinitely, and her post outside of the Inner System, she is comparing the rest of the Universe to her idea of True Solitude. Because her experience constantly surveying the Infinite Universe for threats is precisely why she is so lonely despite already being capable of interacting with other people from incomprehensible distances.

OP's interpretation makes Infinity a hyperbolic denoting something large but not truly infinite, ignoring how Sailor Senshi can watch, feel and hear from distances already profoundly large and vast. They even cheer up with images of the Silver Millennium to keep going, yet they still feel infinitely extending solitude. They're trying to say that their mission of driving off Invaders from the outside is an infinitely lonely task, because they're constantly scouting the rest of the Universe, not their home. It is certainly an abstract comparison, but it's a comparison from a Sailor Guardian, it holds more weight.

Oh yeah, before OP claims as such. This is not the primary argument for Infinite Universe, this is a supporting argument based on narrative details. OP is providing an alternate interpretation of something rather than debunking it outright.

It should be noted that OP has not actually debunked the Static Universe statement, so the loss of this interpretation doesn't actually affect anything. The Static Universe statement merely supports it, since the Universe being infinite would mean Uranus would never cease to monitor it for threats. It follows logically.

 

[Saqphire]

Disagree based on Henshin's and Unanimous' comments

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

The main piece of evidence for infinite sailor moon comes from the manga. While the eternal edition says, "turns everything into the static universe", OP is also leaving out the kodansha translation which we include on Moon's profile as it provides more context in our opinion. The kodansha scan here:

I do wanna note: Is not that OP left that out. Is that it's not in the blog. At least, I couldn't find that specific scan when checking just now.

This is something I'm noticing a lot with these revisions. Many many scans and supporting context are left out or is all over the place, so it's kinda difficult to see what you guys are saying, making everything questionable. Regardless of the conclusions of this thread, you really need to clean up your blogs and profiles and genuinely include everything.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I do wanna note: Is not that OP left that out. Is that it's not in the blog. At least, I couldn't find that specific scan when checking just now.

This is something I'm noticing a lot with these revisions. Many many scans and supporting context are left out or is all over the place, so it's kinda difficult to see what you guys are saying, making everything questionable. Regardless of the conclusions of this thread, you really need to clean up your blogs and profiles and genuinely include everything.

True! Thanks for pointing that out. That's why we are working on cleaning everything up. And you're right, we should include more context.

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Disagree w this thread
HenshinInterventions and lamunanimousinthat make the most sense here
And
As far as I can see SM profiles and verse is going through a massive fix and getting massive revisions or wtv
Wtv the supporters are doing to update the outdated stuff

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Having finally read everything, my thoughts are the following:

Iam makes sense about the Lambda's power. However... The infinite loneliness bit would not be enough to give the universe High 3-A scope. Because while the scenes does mention them comparing their original locations as far away and distant, it is indeed ultimately the feeling of loneliness that is described as infinite. Connecting that statement in the way the blog currently does seems reasonable, but not direct enough for my tastes. So I would still apply the downgrade to that particular bit.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Having finally read everything, my thoughts are the following:

Iam makes sense about the Lambda's power. However... The infinite loneliness bit would not be enough to give the universe High 3-A scope. Because while the scenes does mention them comparing their original locations as far away and distant, it is indeed ultimately the feeling of loneliness that is described as infinite. Connecting that statement in the way the blog currently does seems reasonable, but not direct enough for my tastes. So I would still apply the downgrade to that particular bit.

That's not how I interpreted as, moreso "I think True Solitude extends to Infinity, just like where we come from". She's not saying their locations are far away, but rather the scope of their mission makes them feel infinite loneliness. The scope of their mission being to monitor the Universe for threats. She is saying the scope of her mission extends to Infinity, which brings her an infinitely greater Solitude than Usagi being stuck in an elevator.

Spoiler: Yap

OP is forgetting something rather important, the reason why they're so lonely is because they're stationed far from each other and far from their Kingdom; their daily task is to fend off Invaders coming from the rest of the Universe, they're scouting threats coming from Space itself. Their main source of distress is in fact distance. Know why that's odd?
The Senshi are able to sense others from that very distance. This is why I brought up the examples for Senshi being able to sense things from other dimensions, across further cosmic distances, with the Outer Guardians themselves watching and hearing their Kingdom fall from their posts.

For beings capable of watching and hearing from vast cosmic distances, you'd think they'd be less lonely. But they are not. Uranus claiming that the Solitude she and her comrades felt extending infinitely is a very specific comparison, especially since all of them can hear and watch from millions to billions of miles away at the very least. And I have listed weaker Guardians that can feel and hear voices from even larger distances, from across other dimensions.

When Uranus made the comparison between "True Solitude", which she says is extending more infinitely, and her post outside of the Inner System, she is comparing the rest of the Universe to her idea of True Solitude. Because her experience constantly surveying the Infinite Universe for threats is precisely why she is so lonely despite already being capable of interacting with other people from incomprehensible distances.

OP's interpretation makes Infinity a hyperbolic denoting something large but not truly infinite, ignoring how Sailor Senshi can watch, feel and hear from distances already profoundly large and vast. They even cheer up with images of the Silver Millennium to keep going, yet they still feel infinitely extending solitude. They're trying to say that their mission of driving off Invaders from the outside is an infinitely lonely task, because they're constantly scouting the rest of the Universe, not their home. It is certainly an abstract comparison, but it's a comparison from a Sailor Guardian, it holds more weight.

Regardless, it wouldn't matter. The Universe remains Infinite with the Static Universe statement.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Having finally read everything, my thoughts are the following:

Iam makes sense about the Lambda's power. However... The infinite loneliness bit would not be enough to give the universe High 3-A scope. Because while the scenes does mention them comparing their original locations as far away and distant, it is indeed ultimately the feeling of loneliness that is described as infinite. Connecting that statement in the way the blog currently does seems reasonable, but not direct enough for my tastes. So I would still apply the downgrade to that particular bit.

From my understanding, you believe infinite scope on the basis of the lambda power is valid, but we should remove the loneliness connection from the blog?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

From my understanding, you believe infinite scope on the basis of the lambda power is valid, but we should remove the loneliness connection from the blog?

Yeh, remove the loneliness part.

 

[Robo432343]

i disagree based on unanimous and henshins reasons but i get why op would make this thread, a lot of important scans and explanation stuff is missing in the blog

 

[TiltedFN]

The main piece of evidence for infinite sailor moon comes from the manga. While the eternal edition says, "turns everything into the static universe", OP is also leaving out the kodansha translation which we include on Moon's profile as it provides more context in our opinion. The kodansha scan here:




states "restores everything to the static cosmos". In both scans, the sentence right before it highlights the Lambda's powers restorative power. OP also neglects to give context that the galaxy is being restored as the conversation happens: all the dead senshi are being revived, and being reborn from the cauldron and returning to their planet. The planets and stars themselves are being healed after galaxies destruction. I'll just show the clip from the movie to quickly get the point across:

Okay so there's already a problem with this argument. For one, using two different scans makes this a lot harder to decide, so from now on please let's just stick to one version; the latest ones if we must. Now, having restorative power, or restoring the cosmos to a static one, doesn't help the argument here. Why? Consider this, how would "restoring" something, not imply that it previously was not in that state of existence prior to said restoration? I'll use the example that Henshin gave, a cay. A mechanic that says; "I fix cars" obviously doesn't necessarily imply that all cars are now broken unless he fixes them, but that's a flawed analogy. I'll use it correctly. Say you take your car to a mechanic, and he says, "I can fix cars" and he then goes ahead and does it, obviously this then implies that whatever he fixed with your car, was not fix before/was broken before. This is such a simple chain of logic to follow. And the fact that you post a sequence of it actively happening only supports my point further. The universe may be getting turned into a static one, but that DIRECTLY implies it wasn't one before. You could nitpick the "restore" point here.

And you could say it's just plain restoration here, but that would only work if it had said that the Lambda power is restorative in general, it very specifically says that it restores everything to a static universe, and its name also works as supporting evidence for that. All in all, things point toward the fact that it was NOT static before, but was only turned into one after this power is activated.

And in the manga, we find that this restoration isn't just local, it occurs across spacetime, as Galaxia's and Chaos's shenanigans have altered spacetime and is warping it, the lambda power would have also undone this.

This is fine I guess? Its scope isn't really the point of debate here, just supports my point further that restoring to a static cosmos started happening here. How do you "restore" something to a state if it already is in that state?

The interpretation that the line is about turning a finite universe to an infinite universe doesn't really make sense here. But the interpretation that the lambda power restored things back to the static cosmos clearly does. And the translations notes clearly states is the model for a static universe is what's being referenced here. (also while nitpicking Japanese symbols, we should also remember that Japanese is context heavy language and cannot be translated directly by what's just written)

Okay, and this is where I show why using "translator notes" of all things is an extremely flaws position. There can be no doubt that the depiction here was clearly in reference to Einstein's static cosmos model, and yet; Einstein's own static cosmos model, actually only has a temporally infinite universe but one that is still spatially finite. I'm serious, Einstein's own cosmological model which is what both the manga and the translator notes (more blatantly) refers to, is a finite static cosmos and only is temporally infinite. I'll save the technical details, but basically his model has a positive curvature of space-time (aka a "ball"/sphere of sorts) and even has a formula for the finite radius of that universe. So even if we were to concede this, which I don't think we do; your argument still does not hold. You're using Thomas Digges's model and Einstein's model at the same time. They're two vastly different models in every aspect, you can't mix and match like this. And since the TL notes clearly get this detail wrong; there are, I believe, only two choices here. Either you recognize that they're a flawed source of information on this particular part and discard their use only here, or you consider the fact that because both it and especially the manga (the canon source) the referring to Einstein's cosmos model, that you adapt that more faithfully and admit that the universe cannot be spatially infinite anyway.

The other things are just supporting details.

But I do want to just take the time to mention that this argument about the scene with Uranus being "purely poetic" isn't really a good argument. It is poetic. And so what? That doesn't negate the meaning of the words. If the universe is infinite, then comparing your loneliness to its infinity, doesn't mean that the universe isn't infinite. If Uranus was a mermaid and the text compared her loneliness to the depth and darkness of the ocean, it would be silly to act as though that's just purely poetic and has no physical basis. If an author says something is as bright as burning flame, then we can infer in that story then that flames are bright. And again, this is supporting evidence. We can only use this because we have the definite proof from the translation notes which say it clearly.

It's been agreed upon that the Uranus stuff would be removed, so there's no point in addressing it.

 

[TiltedFN]

So the argument is this, either we say that the universe was static from the start since it's using Einstein's cosmology, which still doesn't make it spatially infinite, or we finally acknowledge the fact that the act of turning it static at the end there directly implies it wasn't so before; in either case, a High 3-A universe argument has no ground to stand on here.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Putting down my thoughts here as well, I will try and make this short and to the point.

The official translations do not say this, in fact. This is a reoccurring crutch for most of the CRT.
The translation states "The Power to turn everything into a Static Universe", it doesn't say anything beyond that. In fact other translations use the term for restoration as well. The overall context of the scene even supports the idea that they're restoring something, as Iam pointed out.

Okay so this is confusing. Unanimous uses a different scan, you're using yet another different scan. Please let's just settle on one version. Now as for this argument, this is somewhat illogical. Sure, it doesn't say anything beyond that, but that's because it does not need to. We can make our own inference from the words that we're given, we're capable of that. Just because something isn't explicitly said doesn't mean that accurate inferences about it cannot be derived, it's not mutually exclusive. Now tell me, if Lambda power is the power to turn everything/restore everything to a static cosmos, and it is doing exactly that upon its activation, what exactly does this mean or say about the state of the universe prior to this?

Furthermore, regardless of what translation you appeal to, the statement doesn't say the Universe isn't a Static Universe. That's a separate claim not supported by the text. Saying that it has the power to do something doesn't lead to the conclusion that the Universe isn't already a Static Universe. That's a whole different sentence! OP is conflating the power to do something with an imaginary previous state.

This is just you repeating the same claim as above. Yes, it doesn't outright say that the universe isn't static. It also doesn't need to, because we can make that which is a rather simple inference from any of the translations. It's not some separate, unsupported claim, it's the direction implication of this dialogue right here. You're also addressing a red-herring here, it's not just that it has the power to do something, the fact that it is doing that, the fact that this action is actively happening as this power is activated, does in fact handily point to the conclusion that it previously didn't exist in that state before. A very simple example, if I say "I'll paint the walls blue", this of course doesn't mean that no currently existing wall is blue now. However, if I look at a specific wall and said this and I start doing that, this definitely points toward the conclusion that this wall wasn't blue before. Remember, the important quality here is that they must be painted blue.

It's like a Car Mechanic telling someone, "I can fix cars" and then concluding that their car is broken. Just because they can fix cars doesn't mean their car is broken, that's a whole other sentence!

I've already used this analogy above, so I'll just use the same one here too. That's not how it goes, in fact for this example you need a more specific example. Let's say a car mechanic that can fix spark plugs. If they say they can fix spark plugs, obviously that alone doesn't mean that their or any other car is broken. However, if they do start working on fixing their car's spark plugs, actively, then this most definitely implies that their spark plugs prior to this were shot and needed to be fixed. It's not some whole other sentence or whatever you're saying it is, it's a direct implication of their word and action, not just their word.

In other words, nothing was debunked here, it's just disingenuous wordplay.

No, you just misinterpret the argument by using a disingenuous analogy and missing the part that the action of it happening actively is what really makes this argument unbeatable. You only addressed half the argument

The OP doesn't note that the Ultimate Lambda Power is an expression of the Cosmos Crystal. When talking about the namesake of the Ultimate Lambda Power, the translation notes also included the connection between Lambda (the Cosmological Constant) and how a Static Universe is conceived. The naming convention is done by Naoko on purpose which is what the Translators have highlighted and provided explanation for.

Sure, that's fine. It still doesn't change the fact that using Translator notes as canon information for cosmological argument is a flawed attempt at best and outright wrong at worst especially when they're simply wrong about what a static cosmos even is. So here again, you should tell me what you want to do. Either discard this part of the TL notes, or keep both but put a higher priority on the canon source that makes a reference only to Einstein's static cosmos model which ends up being spatially finite. In both cases, you do not get an infinite universe (spatially).

OP also claims that the translation notes are non-canon without evidence, the Translation Notes come with the Manga, they are printed along with it in the book. These details are explicitly approved by Naoko and are considered alongside the re-printed manga. OP now has to prove that they're somehow not reliable or usable to understand elements in the Manga.

This is a strange argument. A translator note is not written by an author. It is, by definition, something that translators or editors write later on. Being "approved" by an author is generally not evidence of canonicity regarding much of anything at least here on the wiki, so it's not that I must prove they're usable; you're the one who needs to give a reason as to why they are and your only reason (being approved by the author) is simply insufficient here. At theor best, they'd be secondary canon, but mostly they should be non-canon. Guidebooks are generally more canon than TL or editor notes.

In other words, this is a bunch of fun-facts about what the translator's notes do, not why it doesn't apply to the Manga.


This doesn't directly address the overall point (nor debunks it), this comparison is used as supporting evidence for the Universe being considered Infinite.
Also, if this is from a translation helper, why is the translation from Discord? Shouldn't it be on site?

This point has already been approved for removal so I don't need to talk much about it, all I'll say is that having an on-site translation is neither necessary nor a requirement. Especially when it is done by someone who is a reliable, on-site translator themselves. Regardless, this point will be removed anyway so this is moot

It should be noted that OP has not actually debunked the Static Universe statement, so the loss of this interpretation doesn't actually affect anything. The Static Universe statement merely supports it, since the Universe being infinite would mean Uranus would never cease to monitor it for threats. It follows logically.

The static universe statement doesn't just support it, it is now, at this point, the only load-bearing beam of this entire argument but as I showed before; Einstein's static cosmos model, which is clearly what the manga is referring to, is not spatially infinite.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Okay so there's already a problem with this argument. For one, using two different scans makes this a lot harder to decide, so from now on please let's just stick to one version; the latest ones if we must. Now, having restorative power, or restoring the cosmos to a static one, doesn't help the argument here. Why? Consider this, how would "restoring" something, not imply that it previously was not in that state of existence prior to said restoration? I'll use the example that Henshin gave, a cay. A mechanic that says; "I fix cars" obviously doesn't necessarily imply that all cars are now broken unless he fixes them, but that's a flawed analogy. I'll use it correctly. Say you take your car to a mechanic, and he says, "I can fix cars" and he then goes ahead and does it, obviously this then implies that whatever he fixed with your car, was not fix before/was broken before. This is such a simple chain of logic to follow. And the fact that you post a sequence of it actively happening only supports my point further. The universe may be getting turned into a static one, but that DIRECTLY implies it wasn't one before. You could nitpick the "restore" point here.

And you could say it's just plain restoration here, but that would only work if it had said that the Lambda power is restorative in general, it very specifically says that it restores everything to a static universe, and its name also works as supporting evidence for that. All in all, things point toward the fact that it was NOT static before, but was only turned into one after this power is activated.

Okay, and to use your own logic against you, if the universe’s broken state is being nonstatic, and sailor galaxia and chaos are the ones who broke it in the first place, what was the state of the universe before it was broken?

Okay, and this is where I show why using "translator notes" of all things is an extremely flaws position. There can be no doubt that the depiction here was clearly in reference to Einstein's static cosmos model, and yet; Einstein's own static cosmos model, actually only has a temporally infinite universe but one that is still spatially finite. I'm serious, Einstein's own cosmological model which is what both the manga and the translator notes (more blatantly) refers to, is a finite static cosmos and only is temporally infinite. I'll save the technical details, but basically his model has a positive curvature of space-time (aka a "ball"/sphere of sorts) and even has a formula for the finite radius of that universe. So even if we were to concede this, which I don't think we do; your argument still does not hold. You're using Thomas Digges's model and Einstein's model at the same time. They're two vastly different models in every aspect, you can't mix and match like this. And since the TL notes clearly get this detail wrong; there are, I believe, only two choices here. Either you recognize that they're a flawed source of information on this particular part and discard their use only here, or you consider the fact that because both it and especially the manga (the canon source) the referring to Einstein's cosmos model, that you adapt that more faithfully and admit that the universe cannot be spatially infinite anyway.

Einstein wasn’t the first person to come up with the static model, and the infinite time and space is the most common definition of a static universe. Its the first definition that comes up when you search static universe on wikipedia.

It’s weird that you assume the mistake is calling it spatially infinite rather than just wrongly attributing Einstein to the static universe.

The manga also doesn’t say “Einstein’s static universe” it just says static universe. The common definition of static universe is infinite time and space, and the translation note uses that.

 

[GG55HH]

Following

 

[Killerdrone123]

Okay, and to use your own logic against you, if the universe’s broken state is being nonstatic, and sailor galaxia and chaos are the ones who broke it in the first place, what was the state of the universe before it was broken?

No one has claimed that Galaxia, or any other character, “broke” the universe. The analogy being made is that the universe was non-static to begin with; the question of who caused this state, or for what reason, is not relevant to the argument. Galaxia could have interfered with the universe without rendering it broken or non-static, and that is not the point under discussion.

The key point is that the act of converting the universe into a static state after the activation of Lambda power directly implies that it was non-static prior to this event. This follows from straightforward logical reasoning. The only way to dispute this would be to argue that the video sequence showing the activation of Lambda power does not depict the universe being restored to a static cosmos, which, given the available evidence, is not a defensible position.

Additionally, the manga panel itself strongly suggests that this state of a static universe is a newly established condition rather than the default or preexisting one.

Einstein wasn’t the first person to come up with the static model, and the infinite time and space is the most common definition of a static universe. Its the first definition that comes up when you search static universe on wikipedia.

It’s weird that you assume the mistake is calling it spatially infinite rather than just wrongly attributing Einstein to the static universe.

This is exactly what the TL notes are referring to, and the manga itself directly uses the term “Lambda power.” In the context of a static universe, Lambda has a very specific meaning: it refers to Einstein’s cosmological constant. That concept only exists within Einstein’s cosmological model.

Because of that, the interpretation is not unclear. The manga and the TL notes are clearly pointing to Einstein’s model. While many early cosmologists believed the universe was static before the Big Bang theory, those ideas did not involve a defined constant like Lambda.

Therefore, if we are using any model at all, Einstein’s is the only one that fits what the manga explicitly references

The manga also doesn’t say “Einstein’s static universe” it just says static universe. The common definition of static universe is infinite time and space, and the translation note uses that.

Doesn't mean that's we use here. This isn't about what the most common definition is, this is about what Einstein's model says, and it doesn't allow for a spatially infinite universe.

Also I am preety sure the common definition of a static universe is a universe that is not expanding nor contracting and remaining unchanged in time

 

[AsterReal]

Unless someone can tell me why Sailor Cosmos states that Sailor Moon restored the Cauldron and the Galaxy to their original states, rather than saying that "the cauldron and the galaxy became static." Saying that the Universe is now static makes no sense. Furthermore, Sailor Cosmos' text explaining the Lambda Power only talks about the nature of the Lambda Power. It does not directly state that "the cosmos became a static cosmos." It only says that the Lambda Power can "turn everything" into a static cosmos. Which seems more like a Space-Time Manipulation hax to add to Sailor Moon's profile.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

No one has claimed that Galaxia, or any other character, “broke” the universe. The analogy being made is that the universe was non-static to begin with; the question of who caused this state, or for what reason, is not relevant to the argument. Galaxia could have interfered with the universe without rendering it broken or non-static, and that is not the point under discussion.

The key point is that the act of converting the universe into a static state after the activation of Lambda power directly implies that it was non-static prior to this event. This follows from straightforward logical reasoning. The only way to dispute this would be to argue that the video sequence showing the activation of Lambda power does not depict the universe being restored to a static cosmos, which, given the available evidence, is not a defensible position.

Additionally, the manga panel itself strongly suggests that this state of a static universe is a newly established condition rather than the default or preexisting one.

Well no. You’re purposely ignoring the kodansha scan i provided which makes more sense in context with everything. The lambda power is restoring things back to the static universe.

the context of the entire scene is cosmos glazing the restorative power of the crystal.

also you can’t simultaneously argue that the universe is both finite and the power then turns the universe into something finite.

This is exactly what the TL notes are referring to, and the manga itself directly uses the term “Lambda power.” In the context of a static universe, Lambda has a very specific meaning: it refers to Einstein’s cosmological constant. That concept only exists within Einstein’s cosmological model.

Because of that, the interpretation is not unclear. The manga and the TL notes are clearly pointing to Einstein’s model. While many early cosmologists believed the universe was static before the Big Bang theory, those ideas did not involve a defined constant like Lambda.

Therefore, if we are using any model at all, Einstein’s is the only one that fits what the manga explicitly references

the cosmological constant exists in many different cosmological models, not just Einstein’s specific static universe. Einstein dropped the static universe and still uses the cosmological constant in his relativity theories.

It has to be Einstein’s model or nothing else, isn’t an argument, it’s just wishful thinking.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Well no. You’re purposely ignoring the kodansha scan i provided which makes more sense in context with everything. The lambda power is restoring things back to the static universe.

the context of the entire scene is cosmos glazing the restorative power of the crystal.

also you can’t simultaneously argue that the universe is both finite and the power then turns the universe into something finite.

You’re misunderstanding the argument. The text never says “restore back to a static cosmos.” It only says that everything will be restored to a static cosmos. That wording does not imply the cosmos was static before. If anything, it suggests the opposite the cosmos, as it currently exists, is not static.

Also, “restoring” does not always mean returning something to its previous state. It can also mean changing something into a specific condition. If the text had said it was being restored back to an original static state, that would support your claim—but it does not. Instead, it clearly describes turning the cosmos into a static one, which matches the activation sequence you yourself pointed out.

Finally, the objective of this discussion is not to decide whether the universe is static, but whether it is infinite. Both points that it was not static before, and that “static” here does not mean spatially infinite support the conclusion that the universe is not infinite. This is why these arguments work in our favor.

the cosmological constant exists in many different cosmological models, not just Einstein’s specific static universe. Einstein dropped the static universe and still uses the cosmological constant in his relativity theories.

It has to be Einstein’s model or nothing else, isn’t an argument, it’s just wishful thinking.

This is wrong. In the context of a static universe, Lambda is literally called Einstein’s cosmological constant. That is what the term means.



Because of that, it has to be Einstein’s model. The manga directly uses “Lambda power,” and the TL notes say the same thing. Ignoring this means ignoring what the manga and the TL notes clearly state.

So what is the infinite universe claim even based on now? The “infinite loneliness” argument is already gone, and if “static” here refers to Einstein’s model and not spatial infinity, then there is no support left for an infinite universe.