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Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

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Antvasima said:
Which staff members have commented here so far, what were their conclusions, and what currently needs to be evaluated here? 🙏
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DDM agreed, Viet said PP needs to be changed to 1 but he didn't comment on agreeing or disagreeing, You commented to agree. Conclusions from Bern and other side were made. We are just waiting for the staff so they can vote
 
Antvasima said:
Which staff members have commented here so far, what were their conclusions, and what currently needs to be evaluated here? 🙏
Click to expand...
Hecky2222 said:
DDM agreed, Viet said PP needs to be changed to 1 but he didn't comment on agreeing or disagreeing, You commented to agree. Conclusions from Bern and other side were made. We are just waiting for the staff so they can vote
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@Vietthai96

Are you willing to help out here further please?

Also, have any other staff members commented here yet?

@LephyrTheRevanchist @Planck69 @Qawsedf234 @SamanPatou @GrathOfLux @ActuallySpaceMan42

Your help would also be very appreciated here. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Also, have any other staff members commented here yet?
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Aside from DarkDragonMedeus, Vietthai, and you Antvasima, I did not see any other staff comments. If all the current staff agree with the downgrade, then there would be only the need of one more staff's agreement.

In the end I do believe whatever the cosmology ends up (which if another downgrade happens for it would be L2-C), she would be 1D+ regardless to it by virtue of her transcending "all things"/being beyond "definition and description" (space-time contextually).

However I should acknowledge Nova's comment regarding the space-time she defines does not necessitate one dimensional value higher (note that when he says "doesn't necessities higher than 5D" is due to the fact that verse currently rated as such until the downgrade applies) and believes she also would be at the level of Aeons, which seems to be a topic for discussion.
 
Antvasima said:
Also, have any other staff members commented here yet?
Click to expand...
In my view from reading the summaries, the major Tier 0 support comes from using IRL Religionious concepts as a major basis for Yog's rating. If those concepts are supposed to be equivalent to the actual IRL religions, just referencing them or getting elements wrong makes them unusable for tiering.

I don't think she's Tier-0, but I'm also not sure if they should be limited to 1-C either at the moment.
Weaver261 said:
am not tier 1 expert but her existence transcending space and time as a whole (by definition of space time) should grant her at least 1-A since she has qualitative superiority over space time as a definition.
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Transcending time and space, if taken as that no amount of multiplication would let it reach Yog/Heaven, can be either Low 1-A or 1-A depending on the nature of the superiority.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
In my view from reading the summaries, the major Tier 0 support comes from using IRL Religionious concepts as a major basis for Yog's rating. If those concepts are supposed to be equivalent to the actual IRL religions, just referencing them or getting elements wrong makes them unusable for tiering.

I don't think she's Tier-0, but I'm also not sure if they should be limited to 1-C either at the moment.

Transcending time and space, if taken as that no amount of multiplication would let it reach Yog/Heaven, can be either Low 1-A or 1-A depending on the nature of the superiority.
Click to expand...

Yeah well. It's never defined like that. Although like I said I have no problems with Low 1-A currently. I'm probably gonna downgrade it too in the future. I just want the tier 0 gone.
 
Antvasima said:
Are you willing to help out here further please?
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I remember I agreed with tier 0 removal already, just still have yet to decide what tier Yog will be if the removal go through. Or not?

Anyway again tier 0 removal is fine, I think she will goes down to At least Low 1-A for now, based on what people have posted in this thread
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
Well, it turns out that Nova’s revision regarding the Hoyoverse was accepted, which downgrades the entire Honkai cosmology to Low 1-C. I am not entirely sure whether that corresponds to 5D or 6D, but Nova will probably clarify that once he is online.

Because of that thread, the 1-A scaling for the Outer Gods is now debatable, since that tier was mainly derived from fully transcending the Imaginary Tree, which was previously Low 1-A.

Quoting the profile:



Now, having made it clear throughout the thread that the Taoist and Buddhist references do not establish a clear scale and only serve to emphasize how Yog is a transcendent entity relative to the human world (with different cultures interpreting her existence and the knowledge she grants in different ways, which is one of the reasons why the character is not Tier 0), the only statements that can actually help with scaling are those found in the 5th Kizuna about how Heaven functions, along with a few miscellaneous statements made by Yog herself.

To begin with, we have several statements saying that Heaven exists beyond space and time. In one mention it is said that time is “stopped,” but I do not think that should be taken literally, since the consistency with which it is stated that time simply does not exist there is overwhelming.

Unfortunately, we do not know how big this realm actually is, nor how it relates to the worlds themselves in scope, so due to that ambiguity it should be treated as a plane with Type 1 BDE.



An interesting aspect is that within this white world you can create universes (Imaginary Trees ???), through the power of “definition,” by establishing limits, which in this context refers to material limits such as space and time.



I previously thought about using this as evidence for some kind of R>F, but honestly it is not sufficient, and there is also no real evidence that the total composition of planes (magnitude equivalent to the sum of all tiers below 1-A) is being transcended in a way that renders them nonexistent/zero.

And, as I said at the beginning, the Imaginary Tree is now Low 1-C, so you cannot extrapolate a transcendence to a Low 1-A plane from that either.

So, putting all of this together, the conclusion is that Heaven scales to Low 1-C or 1-C (depending on whether the Tree is 5D or 6D), with Type 1 BDE.

That means Yog, in the only key her profile should have, would fall into that tier.
Click to expand...

I wrote this regarding the justifications for Low 1-A/1-A Yog.

I’d say the correct tier is “Low 1-C, possibly Low 1-A,” because the evidence is extremely lacking.
 
So then "L1-C, possibly L1-A" agreed upon as her tier? It is fine by me since I believe she is at very least L1-C regardless, her transcend seems to be rather explicit.

If it is settled, I just need the profile to be opened so I edit the page (removal of her second key, change of first key into L1-C).
 
Qawsedf234 said:
the major Tier 0 support comes from using IRL Religionious concepts as a major basis for Yog's rating. If those concepts are supposed to be equivalent to the actual IRL religions, just referencing them or getting elements wrong makes them unusable for tiering.
Click to expand...
Honkai cosmology has yin and yang as fundamental forces. So, it's not just referencing actually. Also nothing is wrong with explanation of religious concepts in the story since they literally quoted word to word from actual literature use for Taoism.

I still believe for Tier 0 since she is nameless Tao itself where both nameless tao and herself are said to be beyond definition. Other godheads scaling shouldn't apply to her since she isn't mentioned at all in other godheads' stories. And she doesn't even live in the same place as other godheads.
 
Weaver261 said:
Honkai cosmology has yin and yang as fundamental forces. So, it's not just referencing actually. Also nothing is wrong with explanation of religious concepts in the story since they literally quoted word to word from actual literature use for Taoism.

I still believe for Tier 0 since she is nameless Tao itself where both nameless tao and herself are said to be beyond definition. Other godheads scaling shouldn't apply to her since she isn't mentioned at all in other godheads' stories. And she doesn't even live in the same place as other godheads.
Click to expand...
Snoreee
 
The justification for the profile would be as follows:

Low Outerverse level (Yog-Sothoth is an Outer God who transcends the universe and every limitation of material reality. She exists in the “Kingdom of Heaven,” a transcendental white void that inspired humanity’s concepts of Nirvana and the Tao (*), located beyond the Gate and ontologically beyond space and time. Yog-Sothoth’s divine power allows her to create universes through “definition,” imposing material boundaries upon what has none)

Where I put the (*), a note should be added:

"Although Yog-Sothoth’s Kizuna invokes Buddhist Nirvana and the Tao of the Tao Te Ching in relation to her existence, these descriptions are merely analogies filtered through limited human minds that cannot comprehend Yog’s nature in the first place, and only interpret the forbidden knowledge she grants them in different ways. This thread already discussed the many contradictions that arise from taking those statements 100% literally, so Tier 0 is not defensibly valid."
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
The justification for the profile would be as follows:

Low Outerverse level (Yog-Sothoth is an Outer God who transcends the universe and every limitation of material reality. She exists in the “Kingdom of Heaven,” a transcendental white void that inspired humanity’s concepts of Nirvana and the Tao (*), located beyond the Gate and ontologically beyond space and time. Yog-Sothoth’s divine power allows her to create universes through “definition,” imposing material boundaries upon what has none)

Where I put the (*), a note should be added:

"Although Yog-Sothoth’s Kizuna invokes Buddhist Nirvana and the Tao of the Tao Te Ching in relation to her existence, these descriptions are merely analogies filtered through limited human minds that cannot comprehend Yog’s nature in the first place, and only interpret the forbidden knowledge she grants them in different ways. This thread already discussed the many contradictions that arise from taking those statements 100% literally, so Tier 0 is not defensibly valid."
Click to expand...
Looks oke i guess, now time to sleep
 
Changes applied. Since the staff agreed on Low 1-A, I decided to go with that rating.

In the near future, another thread will be made to better define the tier and whether it needs a “possibly” or not. The important part of this thread was Tier 0.

Thank you very much to everyone who participated. Have a good day.
 
Antvasima said:
So should we apply "At least Low 1-C, possibly Low 1-A" or "Low 1-A"? 🙏
Click to expand...
L1-A as of now, whether she becomes just L1-C with a possibly L1-A or to entirely erase it can be the topic of another CRT. The Tier-0 was the main purpose of this CRT, after all.

The thread has reached a conclusion, it can be closed now, wish a good day for everyone.
 
Hoyobros should not speak up like this. This is a curse at this point 💀
IMG-3570.jpg
 
Shouldn't beyond-dimensional existence be removed now that this character is not 1-A or higher anymore? 🙏

vsbattles.fandom.com

Yog-Sothoth (Guns Girl Z)

Yog-Sothoth (尤格Yòugé・索托斯Suǒtuōsī?) is an Outer God of the franchise Houkai Gakuen 2 or Gun Girls Z. The Outer Gods, deities who reside beyond the space-time of the Universe have infinite wisdom, but due to that fact they also have endless loneliness. Here you can attain anything you want, except...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
Weaver261 said:
Before closing I want to ask if you Sothoth will scale to other godheads since you guys didn't accept her being exception to the academy
Click to expand...
Can someone answer this plz? Also guys, don't forget to remove tier 0 category. It's still showing in tier 0 page
 
Antvasima said:
Shouldn't beyond-dimensional existence be removed now that this character is not 1-A or higher anymore? 🙏

vsbattles.fandom.com

Yog-Sothoth (Guns Girl Z)

Yog-Sothoth (尤格Yòugé・索托斯Suǒtuōsī?) is an Outer God of the franchise Houkai Gakuen 2 or Gun Girls Z. The Outer Gods, deities who reside beyond the space-time of the Universe have infinite wisdom, but due to that fact they also have endless loneliness. Here you can attain anything you want, except...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
Click to expand...

Type 2 is fine for now.

Characters of this nature are Low 1-A and fall under this type.
Click to expand...
 
Antvasima said:
Shouldn't beyond-dimensional existence be removed now that this character is not 1-A or higher anymore? 🙏

vsbattles.fandom.com

Yog-Sothoth (Guns Girl Z)

Yog-Sothoth (尤格Yòugé・索托斯Suǒtuōsī?) is an Outer God of the franchise Houkai Gakuen 2 or Gun Girls Z. The Outer Gods, deities who reside beyond the space-time of the Universe have infinite wisdom, but due to that fact they also have endless loneliness. Here you can attain anything you want, except...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
Click to expand...
Type 2: Characters who exceed conventional dimensionality by possessing an excess of size. This refers to an object (or collections of objects) is simply too large to be a dimensional space in the conventional sense. For instance, the Universe of Sets, which contains all mathematical set-structures, and therefore all spaces in which dimensions are defined, being larger than all such spaces. Characters of this nature are Low 1-A and fall under this type.
 
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