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The Most Racist Tier 0 is a BUM

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And what does Ultima think about this? 🙏
 
Mbpoops said:
this according to super_nova but im not sure if its a valid vote since its off-site and apparently prior to arguments in the thread but shrug
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Super_Nova has said multiple times on the thread he doesn't want to add it as a vote and prefers Ultima himself come to evaluate properly.
 
Genuinely don’t see the point of dragging Toxic or anybody and playing Detective Conan over a screenshot Nova shared about Ultima’s opinion. Ultima, in question and of relevance is Epigram, not Excellentia. More importantly, none of this has anything to do with the thread at hand, in relation to who is who. It’s from an entirely separate server, and Nova very clearly didn’t post it as some kind of guarantee or leverage for Ultima’s vote, at least within the context of his message. I'd say that seems borderline stalker-ish and unnecessarily creepy.

Anyway.

There were no arguments unique to this thread that Ultima hadn't seen when the discussion was taking place, at least. Not that I don't mind his vote counting, since I don't really care about that part. But the sentiment that he hasn't seen the argument is meaningless; all of the arguments here repeated the same things with different words. The illusionary stuff, the oneness stuff, the unified stuff, the fragments of unity stuff, all of these were discussed there. A person's 'unique' interpretation will not change much here, especially if the 'unique' interpretations in question were already taken into account.
 
ShinMaximillion said:
Genuinely don’t see the point of dragging Toxic or anybody and playing Detective Conan over a screenshot Nova shared about Ultima’s opinion. Ultima, in question and of relevance is Epigram, not Excellentia. More importantly, none of this has anything to do with the thread at hand, in relation to who is who. It’s from an entirely separate server, and Nova very clearly didn’t post it as some kind of guarantee or leverage for Ultima’s vote, at least within the context of his message. I'd say that seems borderline stalker-ish and unnecessarily creepy.

Anyway.

There were no arguments unique to this thread that Ultima hadn't seen when the discussion was taking place, at least. Not that I don't mind his vote counting, since I don't really care about that part. But the sentiment that he hasn't seen the argument is meaningless; all of the arguments here repeated the same things with different words. The illusionary stuff, the oneness stuff, the unified stuff, the fragments of unity stuff, all of these were discussed there. A person's 'unique' interpretation will not change much here, especially if the 'unique' interpretations in question were already taken into account.
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Thats not entirely true though? Thats what the discussion between okstrike and nova was about, not the discussion between kebabri and nova(big chance you were just focusing on your own discussion though, can't blame you on that if that were the case). As far as I'm aware, the arguments made there weren't given to Ultima yet by the looks of it. The screenshots from nova's discord show 11 januari, a full eleven days before this thread was posted.
 
TomTaylorTheMessiah said:
Thats not entirely true though? Thats what the discussion between okstrike and nova was about, not the discussion between kebabri and nova(big chance you were just focusing on your own discussion though, can't blame you on that if that were the case). As far as I'm aware, the arguments made there weren't given to Ultima yet by the looks of it. The screenshots from nova's discord show 11 januari, a full eleven days before this thread was posted.
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No, I watched the discussion but thought it was inconsequential at first, because it seemed less ridiculous to certain people who were arguing something obviously contrary to Tier 0s nature being Tier 0 by isolating scans from context. The kebabri dude was present when this was being discussed, and he did try to chime in, but his opinions were not valued. It wasn't just the Tier 0 thing being discussed; it was the plausibility of 1-A as well. Umy was proposing that the stuff Nova used to be contradictions to 1-A, and initially, Ultima was neutral on that. Then he leaned towards Umy's interpretation of it (of which he argued to be High 1-B at best) and outlined statements that he believes support that.

I'm still fine with this vote not being counted, but the kebabri dude was arguing contextual things. I'm not sure what is supposed to change, because Ultima already has an understanding of through the gates of the silver key. And he was the one expanding on some of the context behind the statements, and has been doing so for over a year+ now. Even as far back as/regarding the whole Azathoth=Yog thing.

All of this is on screenshots, but if you want to wait, that's fine. I just think it makes no difference; even other scans ultima posited as supporting Umy's interpretation were not addressed here. The undimensioned stuff would be impressive if you turn off your eyes to the surrounding context a little bit, to see that Lovecraft was not talking about the place being qualitatively removed from dimensions.

For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know.
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All the context tells you is that they are outside time and the dimensions we know. Supposing this was Low 1-A, there's a difference between significantly large abstract (but structural) spaces at that level and regular physical spaces. The two don't even share a similar metric. If it was intended by Lovecraft to be completely beyond any and all dimensions, there wouldn't be any need to add an additional clause to modify that sentiment and express it through relative terms like "all known dimensions".

And then you look at how the statements express it not being bound by space-time:
an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike.
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It begins by reification of the whole All-in-One stuff, to be limitless insofar as it is not confined to one Space-Time Continuum. So, now having read the entire context of both statements, you come to learn by looking at the entire thing. It expresses being undimensioned, insofar as it is confined to no local space-time. Afterall, it is that which grounds such. But in any case, now that we already know "undimensioned" stuff just means outside of the dimensions Carter knew. You can then look at:
Exhibit A:
Time, the waves went on, is motionless, and without beginning or end. That it has motion and is the cause of change is an illusion. Indeed, it is itself really an illusion, for except to the narrow sight of beings in limited dimensions there are no such things as past, present and future. Men think of time only because of what they call change, yet that too is an illusion. All that was, and is, and is to be, exists simultaneously.
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Which discusses the illusionary nature of motion with respect to the unchangeable reality. Notice how it says "narrow sight of beings in limited dimensions", but instead says "beings in limited dimensions"
If you want to avoid discussing context, you can just repeat that it says it's outside of time and space and dimensions, until you come across subtle details like this.

Because here, the experience of change is NOT attributed to dimensions and spatial extent qualitatively. It is the direct opposite of that, the story just tells you "no its because they have limited dimensions". With the implication being that, at some point, if you continue to add dimensions, there will come a point where you can experience change as an illusion. And again, had they intended to attribute those things beyond dimensionality qualitatively, the writing would've been "beings limited TO dimensions" but instead says "beings IN limited dimensions".

Exhibit B
The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions, which men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity.
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This was also what he (Ultima) thought was a contradiction, and this statement comes right before that statement and contextualises it. But from what we understand contextually, reality continues to fragment infinitely. Beginning from the "reachless heights of infinity" and extending spatially downwards up until the third and first dimension.

Exhibit C
All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions
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In the same scan where they talk about this space being outside dimensions, they subsequently relativise what is not. They first discuss all beings as descended lines that extend the wave through finite dimensions, and these represent all stages of growth in each one of the beings in question that exist in finite dimensions. So the space in question, outside of dimensions, contextually is just outside of "finite dimensions". This is precisely why every individual gets fragmented infinitely in a structural sense, because if this were 1-A, there wouldn't be any repeated patterns that just happen to represent a slice of each higher-order version of the being.

Because of the significant, distinctive autonomy between 1-A entities (beings of pure quality) and entities below, which happen to be structural. Carter's experience of himself and his archetype should have radically changed by the time he got to the upper limit, because there's no asymmetry in the genera of 1-A to the genera of Low 1-A and below; the former has no quantitative extension, which is an essential component of the latter.

Exhibit D
Randolph Carter at all ages; Randolph Carter and all his ancestors, both human and pre-human, terrestrial and pre-terrestrial; all these were only phases of one ultimate, eternal "Carter" outside space and time—phantom projections differentiated only by the angle at which the plane of consciousness happened to cut the eternal archetype in each case.
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But instead, Carter, throughout all those ages and dimensions, has his roots in one eternal Carter outside space and time (of finite dimensions as seen in C and A, mind you). And they explicitly tell you, the fragmentation occurs on the basis that each fragment 'cuts' the eternal archetype in each case. There's absolutely nothing to cut about a 1-A being, such that it produces Low 1-A. The argument is tenable if it is divided in such a way that it produces another 1-A, then you can have a base assumption that the division is qualitative.

But the division occurs such that it produces something of a finite dimension and quantitative extension. Which, mind you, is the reason why 1-A cannot be cut such that it produces Low 1-A, because 1-A is a simple substance and entity compared to Low 1-A. The division that forms a complex and quantitative object can only be produced by another object that is inherently complex. The fundamental lack of symmetry between beings of pure quality prevents this division from occurring between 1-A and Low 1-A and anything below. The division of aggregates produces further aggregates (quantitatively), and the division of simple things produces even simpler things (qualitatively). Because the latter converges at higher levels of partlessness and the former converges at further structural complexity.

I mean, literally look at every instance of it being compared to the so-called dimensional beings:

Exhibit E:
The archetypes, throbbed the waves, are the people of the Ultimate Abyss—formless, ineffable, and guessed at only by rare dreamers on the low-dimensioned worlds. Chief among such was this informing Being itself ... which indeed was Carter's own archetype. The glutless zeal of Carter and all his forebears for forbidden cosmic secrets was a natural result of derivation from the Supreme Archetype. On every world all great wizards, all great thinkers, all great artists, are facets of It
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Instead of saying the ultimate abyss is generally guessed at by dimensional worlds. Hoffmann Price and Lovecraft again make their intention clear, that it is only guessed at by low-dimensional worlds. Just that, low-dimensioned worlds. Besides clinging to statements again by isolating them, to make them look impressive. The intention is always clear in the comparison between that place and what is derivative of it: it is the comparison between what is finite-dimensional and what is not. Not a comparison between what is dimensional and what is not, then you have (B) that explicitly talks about the process beginning from the reachless height of archetype infinity, then extending to lower-dimensional planes by being cut continuously from higher-dimensional planes.

Like it's funny enough because these were the same scans used to contest this being below 1-A, and every case involved momentarily closing your eyes to avoid looking at context to nitpick statements like "outside of dimensions", "dimensions are illusionary", "outside of space-time", "undimensioned". But in all of those cases, those statements contextually are quantified in a manner that delimits arguments for this place being qualitatively removed from dimensions.

ShinMaximillion said:
Snip
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Which is why I picked the David Bohm example, because it was the closest thing to the idea being depicted here. Reality unfolding in a manner that fragments infinitely, from a multi-dimensional/infinite-dimensional unbroken whole.

Tier 0 was crazy enough given the context, but I don't agree with 1-A as well. Now that I can finally focus on it, seeing as everyone now agrees this is not Tier 0. I don't see how any of this is 1-A, Low 1-A maybe? But why? The best that has been posited is infinite-dimensions and the best that comes after the ultimate abyss and the like, is a collection of finite-dimensions.

So place me on disagreeing both with Tier 0, 1-A and Low 1-A, so I disagree with Nova on that regard as well. I think this is High 1-B at best. But the main scan that ultima thought implied the High 1-B interpretation, was the reachless archetypal infinity stuff. Which I'm assuming there might be mental gymnastics, in an attempt to interpret the scan differently again. So I'm not sure what difference it would make for ultima to be here or not, but we can definitely wait for him. Since I personally reckon its obvious, that some of the scans are being interpreted by a stretch of oblivion to accommodate 1-A interpretations; but honestly Tier 0 was the most appalling thing to be discussed here. So maybe that partially desensitised me to the 1-A portions, because the comparison in preponderance is night and day between this being Tier 0 and this being 1-A.
 
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dont worry guys my copy of cthulu mythos just came in ill save the verse

Screenshot-2026-01-26-012952.png
 
but fr (if i havent said before i forgor) agree to removing T0 and H1A from profiles not sure where they would land though im not too knowledgeable about high hyper/outer stuff, maybe ill find out when i read the book
 
Antvasima said:
So do you agree with "At least High 1-B, likely Low 1-A, possibly 1-A"? 🙏
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I generally think it just tops out at 1-A (hence why in my first post I said my response wasn't to discredit the OP, since I think it has merit)

I'd probably say "Low 1-A, possibly 1-A" would be more elegant since Low 1-A is what Super_Nova is arguing for while settling for the people who are arguing for qualitative differences.
 
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