Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

[Mbpoops]

Vietthai: Please no more posting

Hoyo fans:

dawg half of these people arent even hoyo fans (i think)

 

[Robo432343]

Hoyo fans derailing a downgrade thread as much as possible so staff won’t bother evaluating:

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Hoyo fans derailing a downgrade thread as much as possible so staff won’t bother evaluating:

challenge impossible.

 

[Apotheosis69]

Hoyo fans derailing a downgrade thread as much as possible so staff won’t bother evaluating:

Well it hasn't worked for one major thread recently...

 

[Mbpoops]

Hoyo fans derailing a downgrade thread as much as possible so staff won’t bother evaluating:

 

[Antvasima]

Like Medeus, I also think that the first post of this thread seems to make sense.

@Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @IdiosyncraticLawyer @GrathOfLux @Udlmaster @FinePoint @SamanPatou @ActuallySpaceMan42

What do you think?

 

[Antvasima]

Meaning that I currently agree with the suggested downgrade here.

 

[Weaver261]

Like Medeus, I also think that the first post of this thread seems to make sense.

For context, first thread of crt is just a confusion caused by wrong justification where I wrote Nameless Tao is Yog Sothoth's bubble. But the scans indicate otherwise. Fixing the justification is enough. But for the case of these scans qualifying for T0 still or not would need extra care from highly knowledgeable staffs (would be better if Ultima can pull up)

 

[Mbpoops]

All threads lead to ultima

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

For context, first thread of crt is just a confusion caused by wrong justification where I wrote Nameless Tao is Yog Sothoth's bubble. But the scans indicate otherwise. Fixing the justification is enough. But for the case of these scans qualifying for T0 still or not would need extra care from highly knowledgeable staffs (would be better if Ultima can pull up)

If Ultima doesn’t want to actually read the thread, we can’t force him. We can’t wait another month for Ultima to show up if he wants to.

This is only going to make the thread die, just like it has been dead for almost two whole weeks.

 

[Udlmaster]

Like Medeus, I also think that the first post of this thread seems to make sense.

@Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @IdiosyncraticLawyer @GrathOfLux @Udlmaster @FinePoint @SamanPatou @ActuallySpaceMan42

What do you think?

Is there a summary of the 10 pages done so far?

If the discussion is still on the Dao and Daoism, I can provide a detailed input on it but a TL;DR or catchup would be appreciated so I don't repeat old points.

To go based on the OP for now;

I think the idea of transcending the Nameless Dao diminishes it entirely since we should establish what it means by "the Dao", since in this thread alone there's is 3 (to simplify things) versions.

The Classical religious Dao, the GGZ Dao and the Wiki's framing of the Dao.

I immediately have issues with equivalence. We can't just assume GGZ Dao is the Religious Dao without it being textually demonstrated. The problem is, our example here inherently contradicts this.

Secondly, as a basis, you cannot transcend the Nameless Dao without reducing what the Nameless Dao is, rendering it useless for any argumentation for Tier 0.

The Nameless Dao is not an object, layer, ceiling, thing, etc. which you can be "above". To be above the Nameless Dao you must reduce it into these boxes. It's in essence a category error.

So, I think the only thing we can do is treat GGZ Dao as something mutually distinct from the Nameless Dao in Daoist religious belief and as something that is a construct through which something may be transcendent over.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Here.

Anyway, for all staff members:

This link is the message summary of the discussion in the thread.

Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

Mind that they are replica of Cthulu mythos. Both Azathoth and Yog Sothoth are described pretty much the same in GGZ too with Yog Sothoth being the wisdom and the gate. Azathoth maintaining reality by sleeping and the reality being the thoughts of Azathoth and being the nuclear chaos. Azathoth...

vsbattles.com

and this is a little bit of clarification regarding miscellaneous questions.

Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

Could you expand on your argument regarding Yog’s ‘true form’? Because as far as I know, Aforgomon is merely one of Yog’s avatars, according to this scan 尤格索托斯的阴暗面,名为“亚弗戈蒙”的化身 ,拥有打破时空规则的禁忌之力。 The dark side of Yog-Sothoth, the incarnation of "Aforgomon", has the forbidden power to break the...

vsbattles.com

Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

Could you expand on your argument regarding Yog’s ‘true form’? Because as far as I know, Aforgomon is merely one of Yog’s avatars, according to this scan 尤格索托斯的阴暗面,名为“亚弗戈蒙”的化身 ,拥有打破时空规则的禁忌之力。 The dark side of Yog-Sothoth, the incarnation of "Aforgomon", has the forbidden power to break the...

vsbattles.com

Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

Could you expand on your argument regarding Yog’s ‘true form’? Because as far as I know, Aforgomon is merely one of Yog’s avatars, according to this scan 尤格索托斯的阴暗面,名为“亚弗戈蒙”的化身 ,拥有打破时空规则的禁忌之力。 The dark side of Yog-Sothoth, the incarnation of "Aforgomon", has the forbidden power to break the...

vsbattles.com

In summary, the final conclusion that the side supporting the thread is defending is:

1. The “true form” key for Yog should be removed, since that true form does not exist (explanation in the links above)

2. The 1-B key (the only one left on the profile after removing the other) should be upgraded to 1-A because it scales to Heaven, a plane that is ontologically fully transcendent to the Imaginary Tree, which is currently Low 1-A.

That's it.

The discussion about the Daoism is irrelevant because it doesn't even correlate with actual ontology of Yog.

 

[Weaver261]

So, I think the only thing we can do is treat GGZ Dao as something mutually distinct from the Nameless Dao in Daoist religious belief and as something that is a construct through which something may be transcendent over.

The thing is that the crt is a result of wrong justification of "nameless tao being yog's bubble" which obviously wrong if you check the scan. So, the story doesn't say Yog Sothoth transcend nameless tao but rather nameless tao has the same ineffability as Yog Sothoth (beyond naming)

Also, Dao in ggz is quite literally bar to bar quoted from Tao Te Ching of Laozi with some extra flavors. I hope this helps.

 

[Udlmaster]

Also, Dao in ggz is quite literally bar to bar quoted from Tao Te Ching of Laozi with some extra flavors. I hope this helps.

Right, I noticed that, but there's more to Daoism and the Dao than the Tao Te Ching. It's like saying a JRPG series has God and also has a Bible with a Bible quote so T0 God.

There's a lot more to it like the Zhuangzi, Liezi, Huainanzi, Wenzi, Taipingjing, Lingbao Scriptures (circa 4th-6th centuries) and the Daozang (This is the whole canon) in general, which comprises 1,500 texts.

I suppose it comes down to how much "importing" we allow when things are mentioned in this way. Since most 1-A scaling scales to broader concepts while Tier 0 as a basis is on very specific, very narrow concepts which must be portrayed properly to be valid.

I imagine it will be something for Staff to discuss when the time is right, since it's becoming more important each day on "What is the limit on importing concepts into text"

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Udlmaster.

 

[Udlmaster]

Thank you for helping out, Udlmaster.

Any time

 

[Deadlock-333]

Bump

 

[Vesxpura]

I imagine it will be something for Staff to discuss when the time is right, since it's becoming more important each day on "What is the limit on importing concepts into text"

I feel that if sufficient parallels are derived without contradiction, it is to qualify for whatever philosophy its appealing to. Although to what extent vsbw considers "sufficient" seems like a massive hinderance

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

Bump

Oh man, I was busy for WEEKS I couldn't keep track of the CRT, lemme see how it has been—

WHY WE HIT THE 10TH PAGE?

I should go and read five pages now… I hope it haven't been the repeat of old argument

Anyway I edited the CRT with a link to summarization comment which also holds more context, so if anyone new wanted to read both side's arguments through the five pages (only the first five page are actually important as far as I remember), they can read through that.

Shortly speaking, GGZ Yog-Sothoth can't be Tier-0 and, aside from the many other flaws which explained in summarization, there is the fact that all religions originated from her by also supporters' own claim, we might as well say that "Tao" is merely one of the (many) ways humans tried to categorize her, something that they can't comprehend in their language (Apophatic approach, mostly).

Other than that, I also would argue Yog did not shown any necessary superiority even over the rest of her fellow Other Gods, whatever reading her or their Kizunas, and for us to assume she "should be" superior to everything as a Tier-0 "because Nameless Tao" based on some reference lines to famous Taoist quotes would be fallacious.

 

[Zhanleiren]

So what level was finally determined?

 

[Hecky2222]

So what level was finally determined?

Low 2C

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

So what level was finally determined?

Low 2C

If the verse remain L1-C, then she's 1-C by virtue of being transcendent to IM-Tree

If the verse get downgrade again… L1-C might be the most she gets.

 

[BoastJr]

Dante solos Honkai Impact

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

Dante solos Honkai Impact

At least do it with your usual memes if you want to drill the CRT vro

Matching pfps is funny but I'll do it for max one week, I like Morgan more anydays.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Bump

Oh man, I was busy for WEEKS I couldn't keep track of the CRT, lemme see how it has been—

WHY WE HIT THE 10TH PAGE?

I should go and read five pages now… I hope it haven't been the repeat of old argument

Anyway I edited the CRT with a link to summarization comment which also holds more context, so if anyone new wanted to read both side's arguments through the five pages (only the first five page are actually important as far as I remember), they can read through that.

Shortly speaking, GGZ Yog-Sothoth can't be Tier-0 and, aside from the many other flaws which explained in summarization, there is the fact that all religions originated from her by also supporters' own claim, we might as well say that "Tao" is merely one of the (many) ways humans tried to categorize her, something that they can't comprehend in their language (Apophatic approach, mostly).

Other than that, I also would argue Yog did not shown any necessary superiority even over the rest of her fellow Other Gods, whatever reading her or their Kizunas, and for us to assume she "should be" superior to everything as a Tier-0 "because Nameless Tao" based on some reference lines to famous Taoist quotes would be fallacious.

if it helps, i have seen statements of the other gods in GGZ (like the strongest one) getting threatened by mountain level attacks, so...

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

if it helps, i have seen statements of the other gods in GGZ (like the strongest one) getting threatened by mountain level attacks, so...

Yeah it is normal, these things happen a lot in academy actually, which is probably why Sol (Thor) is committed to maintaining order, well also Indra I assume considering situation with Nyrl (who, hear me out, calm down Nyrl's mischief by a USB that had…)

Only she and Nyarla knew that there were actually a thousand tragic TV dramas hidden in that USB stick, and the heroines in each of them cried extremely miserably. For Nyarla, this Just the best deliciousness.

To be perfectly honest most of it not all their stories is literally about school girl but in the oddest way possible mixing their mythology or philosophy in, that's why I purpose 11-C for all Godheads or Other Gods. However they still should be "higher dimensional", so they still have some scale.

Yog-Sothoth takes 1-C (6D, which should be fine) due to her being transcendent to Imaginary Tree, assume she is indeed transcendent to "all things", supposedly be able to pinpoint boundaries as she "transcends" them.

Language frames the world, words make the rules, and so space and time are framed beyond this.

That space and time are merely the foundation for things to be defined, she is transcendent to space-time, so she transcendent to boundaries and defines them, this doesn’t seem to necessarily implicate anything higher than 5D also if the pre-conditions for being defined in the first place (Space and Time) are 5D as well. "Definition" is just what’s already possible within Space-Time by just distinguishing it from a whole.

 

[Weaver261]

if it helps, i have seen statements of the other gods in GGZ (like the strongest one) getting threatened by mountain level attacks, so...

I wish people actually play the game and make the claims instead of repeating from what others gaslighted you.

 

[Laniaitte]

if it helps, i have seen statements of the other gods in GGZ (like the strongest one) getting threatened by mountain level attacks, so...

The strongest god? You’re not talking about information from people on TT who claim that god is the strongest just because of a nickname others casually call her, right?

 

[SuperNova55555]

Yog-Sothoth takes 1-C (6D, which should be fine) due to her being transcendent to Imaginary Tree, assume she is indeed transcendent to "all things", supposedly be able to pinpoint boundaries as she "transcends" them.

Not sure if 6D is necessitated here ngl. Certainly not 1-C though, as she’d have to affect her entire realm for that which isn’t stated anywhere that she can iirc.

She’s Low 2-C for the same reason Aeons (soon) are Low 2-C; in that she’s bound by her timeline/branch.

That space and time are merely the foundation for things to be defined, she is transcendent to space-time, so she transcendent to boundaries and defines them, this doesn’t seem to necessarily implicate anything higher than 5D also if the pre-conditions for being defined in the first place (Space and Time) are 5D as well. "Definition" is just what’s already possible within Space-Time by just distinguishing it from a whole.

Bro js ripped my comment

 

[Laniaitte]

Other than that, I also would argue Yog did not shown any necessary superiority even over the rest of her fellow Other Gods, whatever reading her or their Kizunas, and for us to assume she "should be" superior to everything as a Tier-0 "because Nameless Tao" based on some reference lines to famous Taoist quotes would be fallacious.

Do we now determine a character’s factual status just by reading a brief summary of their background, instead of referencing the actual story?

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

Not sure if 6D is necessitated here ngl. Certainly not 1-C though, as she’d have to affect her entire realm for that which isn’t stated anywhere that she can iirc.

She’s Low 2-C for the same reason Aeons (soon) are Low 2-C; in that she’s bound by her timeline/branch.

Damn bro wants to downgrade the verse from the already L1-C to 2-C really and wants to make sure she doesn't also get any L1-C by being 1D+ the CRT already had changed its purpose once by how the verse became L1-C, can't believe I should bring it even lower if the verse get downgrade again… that's some wild turn.

Well, it is more consistent since as I also said she doesn't show superiority over the rest of fellow Other Gods in any meaningful senses. Though I would be fine by her being 1D+ over the rest, "The Heaven" (White Room) still seems to be valid, however now it became subject to discuss. It is true there is no statement she being able to effect her entire realm, to be strict.

Bro js ripped my comment

Ofc, should repeat the points if the CRT is about to hit more pages, maybe I should edit my summarization comment and add that? Yeah it seems for the better.

I am just annoyed it already went to 11th page it should've ended long ago at page 5th

 

[Weaver261]

as she’d have to affect her entire realm for that which isn’t stated anywhere that she can iirc.

We are talking about omnipontent god whose very power is definition and continue to say "she can't affect her realm". Lobotomy Honkai truly

 

[SuperNova55555]

We are talking about omnipontent god whose very power is definition and continue to say "she can't affect her realm". Lobotomy Honkai truly

The “all things” she rules is explicitly Spatiotemporal.

 

[Hecky2222]

bump

 

[Exoko]

How many agreements do you need for this?

 

[Robo432343]

65

 

[Hecky2222]

65

69

 

[Exoko]

65

69

69-65 = 4 agreements?

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

65

69

69-65 = 4 agreements?

The math is mathing, alright, now stop derailing guys.

You need 3 agreement, one should be admin always, for example I have two admin (super admins) votes and I need only one more.

 

[SuperNova55555]

The math is mathing, alright, now stop derailing guys.

You need 3 agreement, one should be admin always, for example I have two admin (super admins) votes and I need only one more.

For Tier 0, you need 4 votes