The Most Racist Tier 0 is a BUM

[SuperNova55555]

Never heard of an apposition in grammatics?
Which would also makes sense cuz like I said in my very First message, how the hell carter WISH to return to a place he Is never been?(+ All the other yap in the First comment)

Give me the exact scan you’re talking about.

my sweet potato, the extension of the earth Is Beyond the First gate, carter unlock the First gate to get there.
If we intepret the world of men and the gods as 3D then the gate prior which Is separate the waking (world of men) and the dreamlands should be not even 2D AND the inner gate should also have a 3D universe has phase? Do you get the problem either the gates are dimensions like First gate Is 3D and this Is not possible via inner gate or the world of man and of the gods Is 3D but that Is also not possible cuz that Would mean that the inner gate has also 3D stuff and it's not possible.

A gate had been unlocked—not indeed the Ultimate Gate, but one leading from earth and time to that extension of earth which is outside time, and from which in turn the Ultimate Gate leads fearsomely and perilously to the Last Void which is outside all earths, all universes, and all matter.

The extension of Earth is Earth across all time. The thing before the First Gate is Earth as a single slice.

The Ultimate Gate is is juxtaposed as the thing across the totality of existence.

Which obviosuly the text refear to the qualities cuz the conception of "yog sothoth" Is directly linked to be an all in one of space and time(dunwich horror)

If you wish, we can just say all conceptions of Yog-Sothoth are meaningless and js not scale it anywhere. But you’re just not getting the proper reading of the text here.

I like to clear misconceptions and "yog sothoth Is coterminous with all of space and time cuz he Is Just that" Is one I actually understand the standard but I am specifically going against what you said cuz from my point of view it's strange that for example Thomas would Say "lower being can see God in its entirety" and not "from the prospective of god his parts(human and stuff )and him are equal" so like I am asking for Ig a line of Thomas or neoplatonism that says "oh ye the parts must be able to see God and nous(for neoplatonism) as whole without limitations"

Enneads 3, Treaty 2 (On Providence 1):

The nature of Intellect and Being is the true and primary cosmos, one that is not separated from itself and is not weak because of division nor deficient, even with respect to its parts, inasmuch as each part is not torn off from the whole. But the entire life of this true cosmos and Intellect entire, since it lives and thinks together in unity, ensures that the part is the whole and everything is in friendship with itself without one thing being cut off from another or becoming different in isolation and estranged from the rest. Hence, one does not commit injustice against another even if they are opposites.

 

[SuperNova55555]

I forgot to answer this.
Are you litteraly ignoring that it's talking about what carter Is seeing in this extension of earth and how Is translating itself to him? It's talking about the extension this Is why at the end says "cuz no mind of earth can..." So pretty explicit I Would say

How does this answer my question.

 

[Kebabbaro.1]

Give me the exact scan you’re talking about.

I put the entire section 2 cuz that Is the context ( I Will take the previous link of my very First message)

Image Chest

Post with 55 views.

imgchest.com

The extension of Earth is Earth across all time. The thing before the First Gate is Earth as a single slice.

The Ultimate Gate is is juxtaposed as the thing across the totality of existence.

It's not "accross all of time" it's OUTSIDE time and litteraly like your Scan says, opening the First gate leads to that, the world of men and of the gods Is instead One slice/phase of the First gate.
Which again doesnt respond to the whole point regarding contradiction

If you wish, we can just say all conceptions of Yog-Sothoth are meaningless and js not scale it anywhere. But you’re just not getting the proper reading of the text here.

Yeah, they are meaningless cuz for the fact they are too small so even "all of space and time" so on this Is the Reading of the text and it's rather explicit

Enneads 3, Treaties 2:

This Is litteraly confirm my point.... It's the intellect that SEES the parts as the whole and via this there Is no difference in these parts and not the humans etc that does that.

 

[Kebabbaro.1]

How does this answer my question.

"Memory and imagination shaped dim half-pictures with uncertain outlines amidst the seething chaos, but Carter knew that they were of memory and imagination only. Yet he felt that it was not chance which built these things in his consciousness, but rather some vast reality, ineffable and undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know."
A reality that surrounded him that try to translate itself to him, and why?
"For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know."
Again pretty blatant

 

[SuperNova55555]

I put the entire section 2 cuz that Is the context ( I Will take the previous link of my very First message)

I’m asking you to just link the sentence that talks about the place he wishes to be back to and then the scan that says he has never been to it.

It's not "accross all of time" it's OUTSIDE time and litteraly like your Scan says, opening the First gate leads to that, the world of men and of the gods Is instead One slice/phase of the First gate.
Which again doesnt respond to the whole point regarding contradiction

And, do you know what it means to be outside of time in this case?

It can’t be that the cone analogy implicates that the Archetype is atemporal because it is present across all time, no? Surelyyyyy not

Yeah, they are meaningless cuz for the fact they are too small so even "all of space and time" so on this Is the Reading of the text and it's rather explicit

The text is quite literally juxtaposing the conceptions of finite species with what it is like to actually witness the All-in-One.

It’s like how you can say God is infinite, but would still be overwhelmed if you witnessed it.

Again, basic reading of the text.

This Is litteraly confirm my point.... It's the intellect that SEES the parts as the whole and via this there Is no difference in these parts and not the humans etc that does that.

If Intellect lacks parts, then what parts are there to phenomenologically see?

If Intellect is identical to its mind, then how can the things within it—all identical to Intellect—see Intellect in a fragmented manner? That would mean Intellect sees itself in fragments, but since it is the very things its sees, then it is itself fragmented.

There is no fragmentation when purely contemplating Intellect (it’s why Plotinus calls Eternity as “just seeing and remaining still”), that would cause you to still be bound by discursive thinking which is already below the level of Soul.

"Memory and imagination shaped dim half-pictures with uncertain outlines amidst the seething chaos, but Carter knew that they were of memory and imagination only. Yet he felt that it was not chance which built these things in his consciousness, but rather some vast reality, ineffable and undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know."
A reality that surrounded him that try to translate itself to him, and why?
"For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know."
Again pretty blatant

This is the second time I’ll ask you how this relates to the Abyss not being omnipresent.

I mean, that would js straight-up skewer any attempts of Tier 0, but it doesn’t seem like you’re even attempting for that anymore.

 

[Kebabbaro.1]

I’m asking you to just link the sentence that talks about the place he wishes to be back to and then the scan that says he has never been to it.

Ok.
"Certainly, he would rest that night in the lost boyhood for which he had never ceased to mourn."
Then After this here It comes
"Next morning he was up early, and out through the twisted-boughed apple orchard to the upper timber-lot where the mouth of the Snake-Den lurked black and forbidding amongst grotesque, overnourished oaks. A nameless expectancy was upon him, and he did not even notice the loss of his handkerchief as he fumbled in his blouse pocket to see if the queer Silver Key was safe. He crawled through the dark orifice with tense, adventurous assurance, lighting his way with matches taken from the sitting-room. In another moment he had wriggled through the root-choked fissure at the farther end, and was in the vast, unknown inner grotto whose ultimate rock wall seemed half like a monstrous and consciously shapen pylon. Before that dank, dripping wall he stood silent and awestruck, lighting one match after another as he gazed. Was that stony bulge above the keystone of the imagined arch really a gigantic sculptured hand? Then he drew forth the Silver Key, and made motions and intonations whose source he could only dimly remember. Was anything forgotten? He knew only that he wished to cross the barrier to the untrammelled land of his dreams and the gulfs where all dimensions dissolve in the absolute."
The intention of Carter Is clear as the day, he wants to return to his boyhood(First thing) and at the end It confirm this via "he knew only that he wished to cross the barrier to the untrammelled land of his dreams and the gulfs where all dimensions dissolve in the absolute." Which AGAIN Is confirmed at the start of section of section three

"What happened then is scarcely to be described in words. It is full of those paradoxes, contradictions, and anomalies which have no place in waking life, but which fill our more fantastic dreams, and are taken as matters of course till we return to our narrow, rigid, objective world of limited causation and tri-dimensional logic. As the Hindoo continued his tale, he had difficulty in avoiding what seemed—even more than the notion of a man transferred through the years to boyhood—an air of trivial, puerile extravagance. Mr. Aspinwall, in disgust, gave an apoplectic snort and virtually stopped listening."

"no place in WAKING life, but which fill our more fantastic DREAMS"
So again It makes no sense for "Absolute" being Something different when carter wish to get inside of It again.

And, do you know what it means to be outside of time in this case?

It can’t be that the cone analogy implicates that the Archetype is atemporal because it is present across all time, no? Surelyyyyy not

Brother what Is being stated to be outside time Is the extension of the earth not the archetype

"A gate had been unlocked—not indeed the Ultimate Gate, but ONE leading from earth and time to that EXTENSION of earth WHICH IS OUTSIDE TIME, and from which in turn the Ultimate Gate leads fearsomely and perilously to the Last Void which is outside all earths, all universes, and all matter."
This Is basic Reading.

The text is quite literally juxtaposing the conceptions of finite species with what it is like to actually witness the All-in-One.

It’s like how you can say God is infinite, but would still be overwhelmed if you witnessed it.

Again, basic reading of the text.

You really want me to bring the statement in dunwich horror that litteraly says that yog sothoth Is the all in one of space and time?
The text Is clear all of these conceptions are meaningless, this Is basic Reading.

If Intellect lacks parts, then what parts are there to phenomenologically see?

If Intellect is identical to its mind, then how can the things within it—all identical to Intellect—see Intellect in a fragmented manner? That would mean Intellect sees itself in fragments, but since it is the very things its sees, then it is itself fragmented.

There is no fragmentation when purely contemplating Intellect (it’s why Plotinus calls Eternity as “just seeing and remaining still”), that would cause you to still be bound by discursive thinking which is already below the level of Soul.

Your quote quite litteraly says the opposite, It says Nothing regarding in conteplation of nous you Dont see fragment, he never talks how we see It, Bro.
He says that via the intellect being equal to the parts there Is no difference, never once in the Text talk about US seeing It.

This is the second time I’ll ask you how this relates to the Abyss not being omnipresent.

I mean, that would js straight-up skewer any attempts of Tier 0, but it doesn’t seem like you’re even attempting for that anymore.

This Is the second time I am asking you to disprove my intepratation which you didnt.
Cuz I gave my reasoning on why It Is Indeed the extension and you Simply said "nuh uh"
Should I do again?

"Memory and imagination shaped dim half-pictures with uncertain outlines amidst the seething chaos, but Carter knew that they were of memory and imagination only. Yet he felt that it was not chance which built these things in his consciousness, but rather some vast reality, ineffable and undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know."
A reality that surrounded him and that try to translate itself to him, why you May ask the answer Is given right now
"For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know."
So unless you answer why my intepratation Is weak, I Will take that as concession.
Cuz again the context here Is that what carter Is seeing on this extension of earth and how It Is translating to him.
So unless you answer this, I Will take this as concession.

 

[Okstrike]

Tbh, i'm okay with Yog being downgraded but not for the reasons you mentioned or to this degree, i was making my own revision thread and the Supreme Archetype/Yog-Sothoth/whatever wasn't even going to be tier 0 anyways, nonetheless, now that i'm free, i'll point what i find wrong with this CRT:

By function, Yog is identical to something you’d see out of an Eternalist universe. Where it is “all” not in some simpliciter sense, but “all” in a pantheistic sense, which is to say that the Archetype is merely the universe itself if all possible states of Space and Time had been realized.

Not really, Lovecraft was pretty cut and clear when it came to his supreme being, he outright says in a letter to Hoffmann price that his intention with the Supreme Archetype was that everything dissolves into oneness without parts, ie, divine simplicity, this is supported by the fact he directly admits his usage of his own philosophy inside his fiction, and Lovecraft essentially believes in Atheistic/Agnostic Monism, the belief all reality forms an indivisible, unknowable and eternal substance, but that it isn't a benevolent or active creator god, or even god per se

Also i don't see how this scan supports you claim...like at all really, using the fact Lovecraft used an analogy similar to one used by a system which Lovecraft denies is just a blatant category error, my air conditioner is white, the sun is also white, does that mean my air conditioner = the Sun? Also, time being illusory contradicts the basic premise of Eternalism

This is why it said to be “coterminous” (definition: having the same boundaries or extent in space, time, or meaning) with Space-Time btw, because it's borders are literally Space-Time... since it is Space-Time:

Yes...Thank you Mr. obvious, but it also outreaches space and time, this why it currently says on Yog-Sothoth's page that he "Transcends and encompasses all definitions of time" so try to keep up a little and stop cherry picking, capeesh? coterminous here means present throughout, not ontologically reducible to

an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike.

A gate had been unlocked—not indeed the Ultimate Gate, but one leading from earth and time to that extension of earth which is outside time, and from which in turn the Ultimate Gate leads fearsomely and perilously to the Last Void which is outside all earths, all universes, and all matter

All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions. Each local being—son, father, grandfather, and so on—and each stage of individual being—infant, child, boy, young man, old man—is merely one of the infinite phases of that same archetypal and eternal being, caused by a variation in the angle of the consciousness-plane which cuts it. Randolph Carter at all ages; Randolph Carter and all his ancestors both human and pre-human, terrestrial and pre-terrestrial; all these were only phases of one ultimate, eternal “Carter” outside space and time

It uses even the exact same analogy for change that Eternalism uses, which is to say that it is merely an “illusion” of experiencing a realized whole in individual slices of it. Which mind you, “illusion” here doesn’t mean that the slices themselves are ontically non-existent, but rather that merely the perceived change is.
That is, it explicitly has part-whole relationships and multiplicity.

No? you took the scan completely out of context, this is probably the most disingenuous attempt i've seen to downgrade Lovecraft, and that says a lot given the recent PSW downgrades

Time, the waves went on, is motionless, and without beginning or end. That it has motion, and is the cause of change, is an illusion. Indeed, it is itself really an illusion, for except to the narrow sight of beings in limited dimensions there are no such things as past, present, and future. Men think of time only because of what they call change, yet that too is illusion. All that was, and is, and is to be, exists simultaneously. These revelations came with a godlike solemnity which left Carter unable to doubt. Even though they lay almost beyond his comprehension, he felt that they must be true in the light of that final cosmic reality which belies all local perspectives and narrow partial views; and he was familiar enough with profound speculations to be free from the bondage of local and partial conceptions. Had his whole quest not been based upon a faith in the unreality of the local and partial? After an impressive pause the waves continued, saying that what the denizens of few-dimensioned zones call change is merely a function of their consciousness, which views the external world from various cosmic angles. As the shapes produced by the cutting of a cone seem to vary with the angles of cutting—being circle, ellipse, parabola, or hyperbola according to that angle, yet without any change in the cone itself—so do the local aspects of an unchanged and endless reality seem to change with the cosmic angle of regarding. To this variety of angles of consciousness the feeble beings of the inner worlds are slaves

Externalism holds that time still exists but it just already realized so differentiation in the cone occurs in the observers viewpoint, even though the observed is already realized, it still isn't static and is theres Temporal ordering, on the contrary, the Mythos holds time is already realized AND no longer has meaning since differentiation in the cone exist solely in the observer and their viewpoint while the observed (the "cone") itself remains unchanging with no ordering, stop coping

Additionally, Tier 0 cannot be seen in slices. Not only do all phenomenological observations terminate at that level, but every part of the Tier 0 is identical to the whole, as well. So the very fact one can see "slices" of the Archetype, and not also see the entire Archetype itself is an immense disqualifier.

You have no premise to this, lol, you're just baselessly asserting that phenomenological projections that are explicitly illusory = the true ontology, which isn't even vaguely a requirement for tier 0 on VSBW, there isn't any ruling on here saying finite minds cannot misperceive the ultimate reailty

This one is a particularly less obvious issue but it should be absolutely mentioned. That being, that Carter's ascension--since the very beginning--invites in himself more and more confusion between relations of things, which would be contrary to what is supposed to happen when speaking of reversion to lesser degrees of multiplicity (which is what happens when you 'dissolve' into a Tier 0)

This has absolutely nothing to do with Supreme Archetype, stop spreading misinformation, this scan is from chapter 3 is in reference to the outer extension, not the abyss or archetypes

Where the rest of the Mythos scales; everyone in the Ultimate Abyss is Low 1-A as what the "Gods" here are, are just beings who can choose to witness the entirety of Yog-Sothoth or not, and everyone below that is hardcapped at High 1-B. Like, all "ascension" is just progressively becoming more-dimensional essentially, which culminates in the undimensional Abyss, so everything below the Abyss has to be hard-capped at High 1-B because it's main characteristic is literally the dissolution of dimensionality:

This has absolutely nothing to do with Supreme Archetype, stop spreading misinformation, this scan is from chapter 2 well before Carter new anything about the ontology of the Supreme Archetype and Abyss; "the gulfs where all dimensions dissolve in the absolute." is in reference to the outer extension destroying physical identity and has nothing to do with the abyss, stop spreading misinformation

 

[Kebabbaro.1]

This has absolutely nothing to do with Supreme Archetype, stop spreading misinformation, this scan is from chapter 2; "the gulfs where all dimensions dissolve in the absolute." is in reference to the outer extension destroying physical identity and has nothing to do with the abyss, stop spreading misinformation

It's actually has to do with the dreamlands(read my previous comment) but ok

 

[BoastJr]

Insane Jumping

It's actually has to do with the dreamlands(read my previous comment) but ok

Anyways, when does pebbles solo 99% of fiction

 

[Kebabbaro.1]

Insane Jumping

Not jumping as me and novas are talking about this for hours lol, and nobody commented

Anyways, when does pebbles solo 99% of fiction

Always has been

 

[Okstrike]

It's actually has to do with the dreamlands(read my previous comment) but ok

I just opened the thread up so I haven't seen you're comment yet, i will go through it to see the reasoning

 

[Kebabbaro.1]

I just opened the thread up so I haven't seen you're comment yet, i will go through it to see the reasoning

That's fair.
Anyway for now I Will take my leave as it's been 3 hours since me and novas started this, I still have to eat

 

[SuperNova55555]

Ok.
"Certainly, he would rest that night in the lost boyhood for which he had never ceased to mourn."
Then After this here It comes
"Next morning he was up early, and out through the twisted-boughed apple orchard to the upper timber-lot where the mouth of the Snake-Den lurked black and forbidding amongst grotesque, overnourished oaks. A nameless expectancy was upon him, and he did not even notice the loss of his handkerchief as he fumbled in his blouse pocket to see if the queer Silver Key was safe. He crawled through the dark orifice with tense, adventurous assurance, lighting his way with matches taken from the sitting-room. In another moment he had wriggled through the root-choked fissure at the farther end, and was in the vast, unknown inner grotto whose ultimate rock wall seemed half like a monstrous and consciously shapen pylon. Before that dank, dripping wall he stood silent and awestruck, lighting one match after another as he gazed. Was that stony bulge above the keystone of the imagined arch really a gigantic sculptured hand? Then he drew forth the Silver Key, and made motions and intonations whose source he could only dimly remember. Was anything forgotten? He knew only that he wished to cross the barrier to the untrammelled land of his dreams and the gulfs where all dimensions dissolve in the absolute."
The intention of Carter Is clear as the day, he wants to return to his boyhood(First thing) and at the end It confirm this via "he knew only that he wished to cross the barrier to the untrammelled land of his dreams and the gulfs where all dimensions dissolve in the absolute." Which AGAIN Is confirmed at the start of section of section three

"What happened then is scarcely to be described in words. It is full of those paradoxes, contradictions, and anomalies which have no place in waking life, but which fill our more fantastic dreams, and are taken as matters of course till we return to our narrow, rigid, objective world of limited causation and tri-dimensional logic. As the Hindoo continued his tale, he had difficulty in avoiding what seemed—even more than the notion of a man transferred through the years to boyhood—an air of trivial, puerile extravagance. Mr. Aspinwall, in disgust, gave an apoplectic snort and virtually stopped listening."

"no place in WAKING life, but which fill our more fantastic DREAMS"
So again It makes no sense for "Absolute" being Something different when carter wish to get inside of It again.

I just genuinely think you just completely forgot your point because how is any of this related to what I’m asking you to respond to wtf.

Brother what Is being stated to be outside time Is the extension of the earth not the archetype

Negative tracking.

You really want me to bring the statement in dunwich horror that litteraly says that yog sothoth Is the all in one of space and time?
The text Is clear all of these conceptions are meaningless, this Is basic Reading

Why do you not get a single of my points

Your quote quite litteraly says the opposite, It says Nothing regarding in conteplation of nous you Dont see fragment, he never talks how we see It, Bro.
He says that via the intellect being equal to the parts there Is no difference, never once in the Text talk about US seeing It.

I don’t need to quote a billion things from the Enneads to make a valid induction. You can also js search ts up yourself. The PDFs are online.

Anyhow, the process of self-reversion of in Neoplatonism is a derivative of being one with the Soul.

When a body is “ensouled” as to say, it is a derivative multiplicity (in the form of the “lower soul”) that embodies the material body. These lower parts of the soul include faculties like that of discursive thinking, growth and sense-perception—all of which are “left behind” when a one reverts back to the higher hypostasis.

When a person becomes one with Soul (by leaving behind multiplicity), it engages in eternal contemplation of Intellect through “Pure Noesis”. Plotinus contrasts contemplation against things like discursive thinking by the former being “simply knowing” rather than having any multiplicity in thought, which is a derivative of lower aspects of the Soul (as it’s been said).

But if you’re so confident you’re more knowledgeable than me on this, why don’t you quote the Enneads?

This Is the second time I am asking you to disprove my intepratation which you didnt.
Cuz I gave my reasoning on why It Is Indeed the extension and you Simply said "nuh uh"
Should I do again?

One second. Can I just ask what you think my point is?

Supreme Archetype was that everything dissolves into oneness without parts, ie, divine simplicity,

Oneness ≠ divine simplicity. You’re pulling that outta your ass. And neither does the scan say it is partless.

Oneness just means to be “one”, which is something all things possess through self-identity and it isn’t at all exclusive to Tier 0.

Lovecraft essentially believes in Atheistic/Agnostic Monism, the belief all reality forms an indivisible, unknowable and eternal substance, but that it isn't a benevolent or active creator god, or even god per se

Pretty irrelevant when we are told the functions of the Archetype.

Also i don't see how this scan supports you claim...like at all really, using the fact Lovecraft used an analogy similar to one used by a system which Lovecraft denies is just a blatant category error, my air conditioner is white, the sun is also white, does that mean my air conditioner = the Sun?

I’m not saying it literally is Eternalism or Lovecraft literally based it on Eternalism, but that it’s functions are similar.

Also, time being illusory contradicts the basic premise of Eternalism...

The progress of time in Eternalism merely describes you looking at further slices of already-existing space.

Coterminous here means present throughout, not ontologically reducible to

Nobody said he’s completely reducible to it.

Externalism holds that time still exists but it just already realized so differentiation in the cone occurs in the observers viewpoint, even though the observed is already realized, it still isn't static and is theres Temporal ordering, on the contrary, the Mythos holds time is already realized AND no longer has meaning since differentiation in the cone exist solely in the observer and their viewpoint while the observed (the "cone") itself remains unchanging with no ordering, stop coping

You described the same thing twice.

You have no premise to this, lol, you're just baselessly asserting that phenomenological projections that are explicitly illusory = the true ontology, which isn't even vaguely a requirement for tier 0 on VSBW, there isn't any ruling on here saying finite minds cannot misperceive the ultimate reailty

That follows through basic philosophical commitments that VSBW ascribes to.

All the “ultimate realities” described in the Omnipotence page hold that they cannot be the object of fragmented phenomenological perception.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Supreme Archetype, stop spreading misinformation, this scan is from chapter 3 is in reference to the outer extension, not the abyss or archetypes

You didn’t get my point at all, because I’m not even talking about the Archetype here. I thought I already explained this to you in an earlier comment.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Supreme Archetype, stop spreading misinformation, this scan is from chapter 2 well before Carter new anything about the ontology of the Supreme Archetype and Abyss; "the gulfs where all dimensions dissolve in the absolute." is in reference to the outer extension destroying physical identity and has nothing to do with the abyss, stop spreading misinformation

Scan: Says it dissolves dimensions.
You: It actually says it dissolves identity.

Beautiful headcanon.

Also, is Yog-Sothoth not the “Absolute” (singular + personal)?

That's fair.
Anyway for now I Will take my leave as it's been 3 hours since me and novas started this, I still have to eat

Bye, Dio.

It seems your lack of philosophical knowledge is leaking into here too.

 

[Kebabbaro.1]

I just genuinely think you just completely forgot your point because how is any of this related to what I’m asking you to respond to wtf

I genuily think you are making these responses cuz you Dont know how to debunk my points, you asked me to prove how "all dimensions dissolve in the Absolute" refear to the dreamlands which I did, cuz I am saying how can Wish to return to a place he Is never been?(Cuz again he goes in the ultimate abyss later) So make 2+2
If you can't track Is not my fault

Negative tracking.

Let's Copy and paste what Bro said

"And, do you know what it means to be outside of time in this case?

It can’t be that the cone analogy implicates that the Archetype is atemporal because it is present across all time, no? Surelyyyyy not"
You are directly saying that statement refear to the archetypes when it's explicitly talking about the extension of the earth.
Do you even Remember what you used here?
This Is the definition of negative tracking.

don’t need to quote a billion things from the Enneads to make a valid induction. You can also js search ts up yourself. The PDFs are online.

Anyhow, the process of self-reversion of in Neoplatonism is a derivative of being one with the Soul.

When a body is “ensouled” as to say, it is a derivative multiplicity (in the form of the “lower soul”) that embodies the material body. These lower parts of the soul include faculties like that of discursive thinking, growth and sense-perception—all of which are “left behind” when a one reverts back to the higher hypostasis.

When a person becomes one with Soul (by leaving behind multiplicity), it engages in eternal contemplation of Intellect through “Pure Noesis”. Plotinus contrasts contemplation against things like discursive thinking by the former being “simply knowing” rather than having any multiplicity in thought, which is a derivative of lower aspects of the Soul.

I am asking for evidences that you didnt provide so I am waiting, you are trying to Say that lower being cannot see in slices the nous while your only quote doesnt even Say that so i can dismiss this via hitchens razor

One second. Can I just ask what you think

You think that the reality that Is translating itself to carter Is the ultimate abyss and you are saying this via "omnipresence" which I directly explained why it's not the ultimate abyss and you blantanly saying "nuh uh"

"Bye, Dio.

It seems your lack of philosophical knowledge is leaking into here too."

I was supposed to make paste but I made myself a sandwich so I am here

 

[Kebabbaro.1]

Why do you not get a single of my points

It's incredible how you complain about me tracking when Who Is blantanly not tracking Is you.
I think all what me and you could possible say to each other Is over especially considering you are not answering my point in the slightest, I am Will Just wait if other in this thread have questions for me or anything like that

 

[SuperNova55555]

genuily think you are making these responses cuz you Dont know how to debunk my points, you asked me to prove how "all dimensions dissolve in the Absolute" refear to the dreamlands which I did.
If you can't track Is not my fault

That’s not what I asked you to prove

You are directly saying that statement refear to the archetypes when it's explicitly talking about the extension of the earth.

NO

I am asking for evidences that you didnt provide so I am waiting, you are trying to Say that lower being cannot see in slices the nous while your only quote doesnt even Say that so i can dismiss this via hitchens razor

I’m not gonna go and copy-paste the Enneads for you. This is something you can arrive at inductively even through basic facts about it. And it is not something that needs ‘proof’ the same way powerscaling does.

Like, let’s do a little thinking: if something has no parts, then what “whole” is there to fragment?

You think that the reality that Is translating itself to carter Is the ultimate abyss and you are saying this via "omnipresence" which I directly explained why it's not the ultimate abyss and you blantanly saying "nuh uh"

Once again misrepresenting my question. I asked you if the Ultimate Abyss is omnipresent or not, not whether that is the thing talking to Carter.

It's incredible how you complain about me tracking when Who Is blantanly not tracking Is you.
I think all what me and you could possible say to each other Is over especially considering you are not answering my point in the slightest, I am Will Just wait if other in this thread have questions for me or anything like that

What I said above; you’ve continuously misrepresented every single one of my arguments.

 

[TomTaylorTheMessiah]

Can someone tag a mod?

 

[BleedingPeach]

Can someone tag a mod?

Mods can't be tagged by normal users. The least that you can do is asking them in their walls.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

Good day, was passing through this thread since I saw my friends discussing matters, and decided to chime in.

Regarding this—

Not really, Lovecraft was pretty cut and clear when it came to his supreme being, he outright says in a letter to Hoffmann price that his intention with the Supreme Archetype was that everything dissolves into oneness without parts, ie, divine simplicity, this is supported by the fact he directly admits his usage of his own philosophy inside his fiction, and Lovecraft essentially believes in Atheistic/Agnostic Monism, the belief all reality forms an indivisible, unknowable and eternal substance, but that it isn't a benevolent or active creator god, or even god per se

Honestly...
If you thought the downgrade was that disingenuous, you wouldn't need to modify what the texts say to suit your argument. The statement just talks about oneness; there's not a single mention of partlessness. So? Sure, they mention oneness, to which Nova already establishes that oneness can just be numerical self-identity. You don't need a "Tier 0" thing for that, and being oneness doesn't imply lack of parts, really. This is just a confused conflation of oneness by a self-identical whole of wholes, which has parts, but is still oneness nonetheless; and oneness that is partless.

The glaring issue here is just the fact of multiplicity being experienced as Carter apprehends the Supreme Archetype and the Ultimate Abyss. From this, you can at the very least gather either

• Differentiation can be externalised from the perspective of the contemplator, as it observes the ultimate reality in a manner that prevents it from forming a contemplative identity relation between itself and the ultimate reality. Hence, you get internal differentiation again, with the unity being methodical and not ontologically privative.
• The contemplator experiences multiplicity because, despite it not being phenomenologically dominant, it is nonetheless metaphysically real as internal differentiation of the same self-identical ultimate reality. Hence, you get internal differentiation again, with the unity just being methodical and not ontological once more.
• Or you can just pretend all the scans are Tier 0, because they seem esoteric enough for you to abstain from rigorously analysing the glaring inconsistencies with this being Tier 0.

In any case, I agree with the downgrade. A good example of what it would look like to experience something that is really without parts is actually here:

Yet, my feet did not stop. Not even the will to stop arose. The flow itself was me, and I was the flow. Why should I fear returning to the place I was born?

I was dreaming. I was aware of that. The surroundings were like darkness, yet in truth, it was not darkness at all. It was not light either—perhaps it was the absence of color itself, or so I thought. I was severed from everything. Only the flow remained.

Whereby the subject experiencing the ultimate reality does not experience anything nor multiplicity whatsoever. Infact they are removed wholly phenomenologically from the experience of multiplicity, and only experience an undivided "flow", such that they are ultimately the flow itself. Lovecraft just does the opposite, because unity here is structural, that's why you can experience multiplicity... precisely because it is a whole of wholes that is a part of all parts.

That's why Carter can alternatively travel anywhere through the gates, through a shift in frame of reference.

But we should probably just wait for the staff, seeing as people are really inexperienced with Tier 0. And it will only prolong the thread further, which would make it even more difficult to evaluate if we continue to go down this path.
Although for now I'd implore the supporters to relax with the whole "you're misinterpreting" comments, the "cope" comments and the like. You could stand to learn that certain statements and descriptions don't need to be rated highly for them to be accurately represented. It is for this reason that, as Nova said, scholars can speak of the Dao or Sunyata as a quantum vacuum.

Statements presented within through the gates can seem impressive when isolated, but it is not isolated statements that determine whether or not a principle is Tier 0. It is the why behind the so-called impressive statements that determines that Buddhists, for example, don't suppose reality is a transcendent and unified principle. Primarily because they are methodical non-dualists and quietists through their conception of tathātā. I have yet to see anyone have a comprehensive understanding of that part, at the very least, which is why I think the responses against this are unengaging at best. And assume some loose conception of how Tier 0 works.

This doesn't need to be Tier 0; before it is a correct interpretation of the cosmos. Once that is understood, a proper conversation can be had about whether or not this is Tier 0. Thus far, though, all I see is just emotional tantrums over an interpretation of the oneness stuff as purely methodical. It doesn't even seem that controversial to suggest, so I'm not sure why this is getting that type of reception.

 

[TomTaylorTheMessiah]

Mods can't be tagged by normal users. The least that you can do is asking them in their walls.

pft

 

[Kebabbaro.1]

That’s not what I asked you to prove

I modified the message like 3 minutes ago to explain better(the message you Just now answered).
The reasoning Is how can carter wish to a place he Is never been? (Cuz you are saying that statement "all dimensions..." Refear to the ultimate abyss and I said it's non-sensical cuz carter has never been in the ultimate abyss before

NO

Do you the original message you made you quoted the passage of "a gate has been..." And you said that extension was across time and I said no it's outside of time.
Can you even track what you wrote?

I’m not gonna go and copy-paste the Enneads for you. This is something you can arrive at inductively even through basic facts about it. And it is not something that needs ‘proof’ the same way powerscaling does.

Like, let’s do a little thinking: if something has no parts, then what “whole” is there to fragment?

So you Dont want to provide evidences ok thanks.
Identical to the whole, but what I was asking and you didnt seems to track Is I asked you ro provide a statement for which It says "when we Watch the intellect or God(if you use thomas) we are identical to him and we see It fully" you didnt.
But again I Dont care about tier 0 cuz the supporters didnt even make a thread about It(there was one but the guy was banned and he was a larper anyway)

Once again misrepresenting my question. I asked you if the Ultimate Abyss is omnipresent or not, not whether that is the thing talking to Carter.

If I say yes or not, it's meangless cuz I explained to you It can Just refear to the extension of the earth and stop, which you didnt answer back to my intepratation

What I said above; you’ve continuously misrepresented every single one of my arguments.

I Could Say the same for you + you actively ignoring them

 

[SuperNova55555]

I modified the message like 3 minutes ago to explain better(the message you Just now answered).
The reasoning Is how can carter wish to a place he Is never been? (Cuz you are saying that statement "all dimensions..." Refear to the ultimate abyss and I said it's non-sensical cuz carter has never been in the ultimate abyss before

Right. So which part says that Carter wants to “return” to the place where all dimensions dissolve. Like quote the sentence that says that he wants to return there.

Do you the original message you made you quoted the passage of "a gate has been..." And you said that extension was across time and I said no it's outside of time.
Can you even track what you wrote?

Please read my message again. And then think about it for a second or two.

"when we Watch the intellect or God(if you use thomas) we are identical to him and we see It fully"

I never said you become identical to Intellect, or God for that matter. Contemplation is done through Soul. (Which also lacks multiplicity, the entirety of Enneads IV, particularly the ninth treatise iirc is devoted to this).

If I say yes or not, it's meangless cuz I explained to you It can Just refear to the extension of the earth and stop, which you didnt answer back to my intepratation

You can keep dodging the question. I don’t mind.

I Could Say the same for you + you actively ignoring them

Considering you altered your first comment so you can actually respond to my question makes me believe that you realized that you were indeed “not tracking” midway-through.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

The Monist bits are fine, really, but not many monist interpretations necessarily need to be Tier 0. Which again just goes back to the idea that statements of unity, which sure may seem impressive to the average layman, need not necessarily be rated highly. The idea that a fourth-dimensional being can be shown to have achieved some relative methodical perspective of unity, by seeing all slices of beings extended in three-dimensions infinitely over time, is super funny but unironically true (never thought I'd see someone be bold enough to argue that though). But yes, you can have all of these statements be n-dimensional just fine, without committing to some principle that is absolute simplicity. It seems like a holistically sound interpretation in any case, too, which, unlike high-rated tierings being supposed here, doesn't need you to isolate the contextual reifications of predicates like "oneness", "All-in-one" and "multiplicity and change is an illusion". Since these predicates won't matter much when multiplicity is shown to be metaphysically real, even when it is held to be methodically unreal. I do remember earlier they reify the supposed predicates of Carter as formless or his lack of bodily autonomy, through the lens of his being uncertain of his spatial relation to the objects around him:

And then, suddenly, he felt a greater terror than that which any of the Forms could give—a terror from which he could not flee because it was connected with himself. Even the First Gateway had taken something of stability from him, leaving him uncertain about his bodily form and about his relationship to the mistily defined objects around him, but it had not disturbed his sense of unity. He had still been Randolph Carter, a fixed point in the dimensional seething. Now, beyond the Ultimate Gateway, he realized in a moment of consuming fright that he was not one person, but many persons.

Instead of him being qualitatively removed from bodily, material and spatial predication. Which just goes to show how a holistic interpretation of some of these "impressive" abstract descriptions of naturalistic things is necessary; otherwise, every single statement isolated would always seem more impressive than it actually is. So, to not be nitpicky, I'd say the CRT gives fair critiques. Although again, everyone should definitely calm down.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Following (Sadly, prolly won't have time to properly engage)

 

[Okstrike]

Oneness ≠ divine simplicity. You’re pulling that outta your ass. And neither does the scan say it is partless.

Oneness just means to be “one”, which is something all things possess through self-identity and it isn’t at all exclusive to Tier 0.

MF what?!? I thought you j*bless PSW mods where supposed to be knowledgeable on philosophyit is it exclusive to tier 0s if the oneness in question is referring to monism, which is what is scan is obviously talking about, everything that exists converging into oneness is literally just priority monism as opposed to dualism which says everything is made out of parts, and you can't have priority monism without divine simplicity otherwise it can't be true monism and vice versa, their inherent to each other

Pretty irrelevant when we are told the functions of the Archetype.

How is it irrelevant? we're only told about the phenomenological functions of the Archetypes, their true nature has shown to be fundamentally unknowable, hence why they can only be known illusorily, stop reaching

I’m not saying it literally is Eternalism or Lovecraft literally based it on Eternalism, but that it’s functions are similar.

Not similar enough for a downgrade and that's just a category error, see my prior analogy; My air air conditioner is white, the Sun is also white, does that mean my air conditioner = the Sun?

The progress of time in Eternalism merely describes you looking at further slices of already-existing space. The progress of time in Eternalism merely describes you looking at further slices of already-existing space. Nobody said he’s completely reducible to it.

Yes, but time still holds meaning and temporal ordering still exists, which the scan explicitly denies, in Eternalism, you CAN cut the cone and end up in different points of time while in the Mythos you CAN'T truly cut the cone and can only do it illusorily, hence why it says this:

as the shapes produced by the cutting of a cone seem to vary with the angles of cutting—being circle, ellipse, parabola, or hyperbola according to that angle, yet without any change in the cone itself

You described the same thing twice.

Let me simplify this for your peanut sized brain:
In Eternizmism:

• Everything is already realized
• Existence isn't static
• There is temporal ordering
• You can cut the cone and end up in different points of time

In the Mythos:

• Everything is already realized
• Existence is static
• There is no temporal ordering
• You can't truly cut the cone and can only do so illusorily

All the “ultimate realities” described in the Omnipotence page hold that they cannot be the object of fragmented phenomenological perception.

"That's an nice argument, but why don't you back it up with a source"
"My source is that i made it the frick up!"

You didn’t get my point at all, because I’m not even talking about the Archetype here. I thought I already explained this to you in an earlier comment.

I didn't see you're early comment, i left when i said i left cuz a power scaling forum obviously isn't more important to me than my grades

Scan: Says it dissolves dimensions.
You: It actually says it dissolves identity.

Beautiful headcanon.

Scan: says the inner gate dissolves dimensions.
You: um, akshly, its referring to the All-in-One even though Carter didn't even know about the All-in-One yet since it uses the word absolute

As for destroying identity, i never claimed that (yet) but nonetheless, the abyss does "dissolve" identity:

Faced with this realisation, Randolph Carter reeled in the clutch of supreme horror—horror such as had not been hinted even at the climax of that hideous night when two had ventured into an ancient and abhorred necropolis under a waning moon and only one had emerged. No death, no doom, no anguish can arouse the surpassing despair which flows from a loss of identity. Merging with nothingness is peaceful oblivion; but to be aware of existence and yet to know that one is no longer a definite being distinguished from other beings—that one no longer has a self—that is the nameless summit of agony and dread.

He knew that there had been a Randolph Carter of Boston, yet could not be sure whether he—the fragment or facet of an earthly entity beyond the Ultimate Gate—had been that one or some other. His self had been annihilated; and yet he—if indeed there could, in view of that utter nullity of individual existence, be such a thing as he

In the face of that awful wonder, the quasi-Carter forgot the horror of destroyed individuality.

Also, is Yog-Sothoth not the “Absolute” (singular + personal)?

Nah, it's like saying T'sath is Yog-Sothoth because T'sath is referred to as omnipotent in the mound, which would be another category error

 

[Kebabbaro.1]

Right. So which part says that Carter wants to “return” to the place where all dimensions dissolve. Like quote the sentence that says that he wants to return there.

"He knew only that he wished to cross the barrier to the untrammelled land of his dreams and the gulfs where all dimensions dissolve in the absolute."
Cross here Is the term, together with the intention like said many time to use the silver key to return to that boyhood he never ceased to mourn and other statement like this, cuz again novas how can carter wish to cross the barrier for the dreams and the gulfs where all dissolve into the Absolute of he Is never been there? The context Is clear and explicit and even at the start of section 3 when It said
"till we return to our narrow, rigid, objective world of limited causation and tri-dimensional logic."
It's Just this Simply.

Please read my message again. And then think about it for a second or two.

I still read that thing regarding the gate, unless I missed Something or you modify One of the message then boh(dunno)

You can keep dodging the question. I don’t mind.

I am not dodging, cuz I know what you Will Say "if the ultimate abyss Is omnipresent then it's the ultimate abyss that it's translating itself to carter" which I directly Just answer

Considering you altered your first comment so you can actually respond to my question makes me believe that you realized that you were indeed “not tracking” midway-through.

In fact in my comment I directly said It I modify It, but I simply added cuz my message before was implicit to what I said before modifying It.(In fact this was Something then I directly answer in the second message)

 

[Kebabbaro.1]

Considering you altered your first comment so you can actually respond to my question makes me believe that you realized that you were indeed “not tracking” midway-through.

Like I said, let's wait what other thinks cuz me and you already talked enough.
Anyway I am not gonna make any tier 0 comment cuz like I Dont care(I Just cared about the Gates part) and It should be a separate thread where the supporters of the verse propose the argument or whatever.

 

[SuperNova55555]

MF what?!? I thought you j*bless PSW mods where supposed to be knowledgeable on philosophyit is it exclusive to tier 0s if the oneness in question is referring to monism, which is what is scan is obviously talking about, everything that exists converging into oneness is literally just priority monism as opposed to dualism which says everything is made out of parts, and you can't have priority monism without divine simplicity otherwise it can't be true monism and vice versa, their inherent to each other

So can you tell me which scan says Yog-Sothoth follows monism? + what Shin said

How is it irrelevant? we're only told about the phenomenological functions of the Archetypes, their true nature has shown to be fundamentally unknowable, hence why they can only be known illusorily, stop reaching

Not only does the first scan have no relation to Yog, but it would also re-affirm that it’s ineffability is a derivative of the limitation of the mind. Which is entirely consistent with what is shown in the text.

Not similar enough for a downgrade and that's just a category error, see my prior analogy; My air air conditioner is white, the Sun is also white, does that mean my air conditioner = the Sun?

This is borderline the worst analogy of all time.

Yes, but time still holds meaning and temporal ordering still exists, which the scan explicitly denies, in Eternalism, you CAN cut the cone and end up in different points of time while in the Mythos you CAN'T truly cut the cone and can only do it illusorily, hence why it says this:

What is the difference between the two example? The word “illusory” changes nothing of it’s conclusion.

"That's an nice argument, but why don't you back it up with a source"
"My source is that i made it the **** up!"

You can’t phenomenologically fragment Pure Act… the One can’t be an object of phenomenological observation… same can be said for the Will…

Like, do you want e lecture or…?

Scan: says the inner gate dissolves dimensions.

Oh really? Must’ve missed that.

Nah, it's like saying T'sath is Yog-Sothoth because T'sath is referred to as omnipotent in the mound, which would be another category error

Flowery language diff.

Also it’s literally not the same because “Absolute” is used in the same story, and in that same story, the only other undimensioned thing is the Archetype. This is a fundamentally basic relation.

"He knew only that he wished to cross the barrier to the untrammelled land of his dreams and the gulfs where all dimensions dissolve in the absolute."
Cross here Is the term, together with the intention like said many time to use the silver key to return to that boyhood he never ceased to mourn and other statement like this, cuz again novas how can carter wish to cross the barrier for the dreams and the gulfs where all dissolve into the Absolute of he Is never been there? The context Is clear and explicit and even at the start of section 3 when It said
"till we return to our narrow, rigid, objective world of limited causation and tri-dimensional logic."
It's Just this Simply.

Why do you think he wants to cross to those places?

It can’t be that those places are what allow him to return to his boyhood, no?

I still read that thing regarding the gate, unless I missed Something or you modify One of the message then boh(dunno)

It’s called referencing one part of the story and then relating it to it in a holistic manner.

I am not dodging, cuz I know what you Will Say "if the ultimate abyss Is omnipresent then it's the ultimate abyss that it's translating itself to carter"

Anyway I am not gonna make any tier 0 comment cuz like I Dont care

Right.

 

[Kebabbaro.1]

Why do you think he wants to cross to those places?

It can’t be that those places are what allow him to return to his boyhood, no?

You answer yourself, thanks.
So carter wishes to cross the barrier that leads to the Land of his Dreams and the gulfs where all dimensions dissolve in the Absolute thanks.

It’s called referencing one part of the story and then relating it to it in a holistic manner.

It's not in a holistic sense at all when the statement Is specifically for where the First gate leads to.

Right

Yep

 

[Reiner04]

Chill guys. This is just fiction no need to be so serious. Behave and be civil. I will delete any comment from here on if it contains any form of insult towards other users w/o a warning. I hope i made myself clear.

 

[Okstrike]

give me a minute i'm busy rn

 

[SuperNova55555]

Chill guys. This is just fiction no need to be so serious. Behave and be civil. I will delete any comment from here on if it contains any form of insult towards other users w/o a warning. I hope i made myself clear.

Okok I will behave

 

[Rutæhh]

give me a minute i'm busy rn

ure minute is over big bro. get back here and powerscale

 

[Kebabbaro.1]

Chill guys. This is just fiction no need to be so serious. Behave and be civil. I will delete any comment from here on if it contains any form of insult towards other users w/o a warning. I hope i made myself clear.

We will

 

[Re5yh]

Chill guys. This is just fiction no need to be so serious. Behave and be civil. I will delete any comment from here on if it contains any form of insult towards other users w/o a warning. I hope i made myself clear.

Well, since this thread is extremely big for supporters of the verse, we will behave for our best

 

[FallenWarGod]

About time.
Following

 

[ShinMaximillion]

MF what?!? I thought you j*bless PSW mods where supposed to be knowledgeable on philosophyit is it exclusive to tier 0s if the oneness in question is referring to monism, which is what is scan is obviously talking about, everything that exists converging into oneness is literally just priority monism as opposed to dualism which says everything is made out of parts, and you can't have priority monism without divine simplicity otherwise it can't be true monism and vice versa, their inherent to each other

Well, just to be clear, monism (even priority monism) does not imply simplicity by necessity. This shouldn't be controversial; there are perspectives of priority monism that rely on holism. Which either has it that reality unfolds from a dynamic and structured unity, infact you can probably get something similar from quantum mysticism just fine, supposing the unified thing beneath flux is something like a quantum field. If not, you can even work with the universal wavefunction just fine, which is embedded in an infinite-dimensional space.

Priority monism just has it that multiplicity is not primary, but that is different from supposing multiplicity doesn't exist altogether within the unified principle. So you'd really be unjustified in thinking priority monism is an instant jump to divine simplicity, if not outright slightly skewed in your understanding of the ontic commitments of a priority monist. If you're a priority monist, you don't have to go the extra mile to suppose multiplicity is ontologically privative at the level of the ultimate reality. Maybe the conversation would be more productive if all of you just relaxed, because despite arrogance, you're pretty much just wrong about this, really.

And it’d also help if you dropped the “I thought you PSW mods were supposed to be X” nonsense. This is VSBW, not some meta commentary about who’s supposed to act a certain way from another wiki. Stick to the actual points being made when you begin the response and address the argument itself instead of throwing in irrelevant jabs at the beginning that nobody asked of you to do so.

Anyway, that aside.

I just don't see any reason to assume something that can be explained by n-dimensions to be Tier 0, really. I can understand maybe an argument for 1-A, but Tier 0 just seems outrageous lol. Geometry can seem mystical to the layman; in any case, its philosophical parsimony really. There's no need to multiply assumptions when a principle can be explained by less radical commitments.

Until the plausibility of less radical commitments is contested (preferably not by impulse, too; it would be better if you calm down and think this through), then I'll probably be leaning towards agreeing for a long time.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

Wtf supporters came back , either way agree that he shouldn’t be tier 0 but don’t agree with low-1A still, have modes checked this?

 

[Maniaunavailable]

Oops sorry, but nova are there any options for a higher tier or is it still low outerversal?

 

[Re5yh]

Honestly, I can agree with yog sothoth and azathoth for not being Tier 0, but heavily disagree with Low 1-A since this is much deeper under the downgrade. After looking at Okstrike and Kebabbaro.1's arguments, they make more sense after all.