• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Asriel vs Kratos (0-4-10)

Status
Not open for further replies.
I might as well give Kratos Info Type 2 with how much he's being match farmed.
 
Thermor said:
I believe the metaphysical page is more important as it deeply goes into interactions between metaphysical aspects. It directly says all are treated equal by default, no superiority over each other. If you think CM2 is superior, go ahead make a staff thread to remove the page.
Click to expand...
vsbattles.fandom.com

Metaphysical Aspects

The term Metaphysical Aspects refers to aspects of existence which are not part of the physical world, or spiritual aspects like mind or soul, but define or govern the world from the background. Examples include laws, causality, information, concepts, plot and also things our wiki does not list...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Order of Aspects​

In fiction, some metaphysical aspects are often more fundamental than others or able to govern other aspects. E.g. Concepts frequently govern the laws of the universe and are more fundamental than them, such that manipulation of the laws can't influence concepts, but manipulating concepts also changes the laws to reflect the changes to reality performed when concepts were manipulated.

There is no default order to metaphysical aspects, meaning that if we have no additional information from the fiction a power comes from, we can not decide whether or not the ability to manipulate one aspect would be able to influence, overcome or be affected by another. For example, per default plot manipulation would not be able to manipulate concepts, but concept erasure can't necessarily be used to erase the plot either. In a vs-debate a clash between such powers may have an indeterminate outcome, unless at least one of the fictions involved clarifies how the interaction between the metaphysical aspects works.
Click to expand...
This means that Info EE will fail against Hope CM1 Invul.

Metaphysical Equalization​

As we can not list every possible kind of metaphysical aspect that may appear in fiction, not listed things like names, Dao, essence or ether are usually sorted into the existing abilities by judging what seems most similar to the ability even if it is not an exact equivalence. At the same time do different fictions at times call very similar ideas by different names, such that what is called concept in one fiction might end up being almost the same as what is called information in another.

As such it is at times reasonable to not hang on to the rigid classifications of our power and ability pages in vs-debates and allow for a more case-by-case comparison.

E.g. If in one fiction names are considered the essence of being and classified as concept manipulation and in another fiction names are also considered as fundamental part of existence, but classified as information manipulation instead as the explanation used digital metaphors, it would be possible to still equalize names in both verses to be the same metaphysical aspect, despite their classification.
Click to expand...
This even digs the grave deeper. But you won't find me dead assuming Info is on same level as CM.
 
Planck69 said:
I might as well give Kratos Info Type 2 with how much he's being match farmed.
Click to expand...
Fear not, they will bring up Truth Manip and Logic Manip as their savior against the false god
 
StrymULTRA said:
This doesn't even say it's an absolute truth, it also makes another case where CM 1 fails against plot lmao.
Click to expand...
E.g. If in one fiction names are considered the essence of being and classified as concept manipulation and in another fiction names are also considered as fundamental part of existence, but classified as information manipulation instead as the explanation used digital metaphors, it would be possible to still equalize names in both verses to be the same metaphysical aspect, despite their classification.
Click to expand...
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
This means that Info EE will fail against Hope CM1 Invul.
Click to expand...
Actually this just means that neither can interact with each other

For kratos this means his CM1 power null or inv can't interact with info

For asriel this means his info can't erase CM1

that dosen't really matter in asriels case though since he's using info EE to erase information not the concept
 
Delusionaltx2 said:
Actually this just means that neither can interact with each other

For kratos this means his CM1 power null or inv can't interact with info

For asriel this means his info can't erase CM1

that dosen't really matter in asriels case though since he's using info EE to erase information not the concept
Click to expand...
Good thing Asriel isn't an abstract Information entity. He's getting haxxed just fine.

And this entire thing still meandered from the infinite power gap...
 
So that Info EE isn't even touching basic souls in GoW. Souls are CM1 AE1. Hope Kratos is different beast entirely.

Lets assume Info EE erases Kratos' body, since Matter is a form of info. What's stopping Kratos's ghost from hax spamming Azzy? Azzzy can't even interact with Kratos ghost/soul whatever. And I am ignoring Hope Invul.
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
So that Info EE isn't even touching basic souls in GoW. Souls are CM1 AE1. Hope Kratos is different beast entirely.
Click to expand...
unless those souls have some form of info based nep or smth then by wiki standards info EE is absolutely working
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Lets assume Info EE erases Kratos' body, since Matter is a form of info. What's stopping Kratos's ghost from hax spamming Azzy? Azzzy can't even interact with Kratos ghost/soul whatever. And I am ignoring Hope Invul.
Click to expand...
matter comes from info...if you erase info then there is no matter since info is the fundamental building block of reality
 
Delusionaltx2 said:
unless those souls have some form of info based nep or smth then by wiki standards info EE is absolutely working
Click to expand...
I'll steelman this point as well, even though I don't agree. Let's assume Azzy nuked Kratos body matter and info of soul. He still has other parts left. GoW souls can survive on individual aspects. Kratos is still alive and well as poltrgiest like he is in hell, now what is saving Azzy? Kratos is even more intangible to Azzy.
 
Delusionaltx2 said:
matter comes from info...if you erase info then there is no matter since info is the fundamental building block of reality
Click to expand...
This isn't really the case. Information page doesn't make any such specification, beyond it just being the "code" of reality. Information as it applies to normal reality is tied to matter. Of course, a setting can make such a distinction for its Information like anything else, but that isn't the case here.
 
wait can Kratos survive as a soul?? im assuming no coz he doesn't have mid - high godly regen or something
if he can then he just wins
 
Planck69 said:
This isn't really the case. Information page doesn't make any such specification, beyond it just being the "code" of reality. Information as it applies to normal reality is tied to matter. Of course, a setting can make such a distinction for its Information like anything else, but that isn't the case here.
Click to expand...
Tbf this isn't really the case as here simply resisting CM1 doesn't mean resisting Info 2 for the same reason why it wouldn't help against basic Space cutting or Sleep hax without evidence of doing so.

Even then some verses treat Info 2 as more fundamental than CM1 like Tensura so...
 
StrymULTRA said:
Tbf this isn't really the case as here simply resisting CM1 doesn't mean resisting Info 2 for the same reason why it wouldn't help against basic Space cutting or Sleep hax without evidence of doing so.
Click to expand...
It's a matter of interaction rather than direct resistance.
StrymULTRA said:
Even then some verses treat Info 2 as more fundamental than CM1 like Tensura so...
Click to expand...
....Yes, that's my point. If a setting makes the distinction, then mind hax can be above plot hax for all we care. But that isn't made here.
 
Planck69 said:
This isn't really the case. Information page doesn't make any such specification, beyond it just being the "code" of reality. Information as it applies to normal reality is tied to matter. Of course, a setting can make such a distinction for its Information like anything else, but that isn't the case here.
Click to expand...
To quote the information manipulation page on the wiki

  • 2. Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information that serves as a fundamental building block of reality. This information is shown to compose reality similar to how data underlies a video game world, code defines the rules of a simulation or in a fashion equally fundamental to these examples. This may allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. The ability can come on many levels of potency. The possible uses range from being the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities to rewriting information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.
Click to expand...
Also no, matter has fundamental building blocks to it so it would have info
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
I'll steelman this point as well, even though I don't agree. Let's assume Azzy nuked Kratos body matter and info of soul. He still has other parts left. GoW souls can survive on individual aspects. Kratos is still alive and well as poltrgiest like he is in hell, now what is saving Azzy? Kratos is even more intangible to Azzy.
Click to expand...
Feel like it would be a NLF to say Kratos surviving without idk a concept means he can survive without info especially since we've established that these two are different wavelengths
 
Delusionaltx2 said:
Also no, matter has fundamental building blocks to it so it would have info
Click to expand...
no one denied that. that's what we have been saying about matter.
Delusionaltx2 said:
Feel like it would be a NLF to say Kratos surviving without a concept means he can survive without info especially since we've established that these two are different wavelengths
Click to expand...
First have that info interact with CM1 souls first. Even then, GoW has shown individual splinters can exist seperatly.
 
Delusionaltx2 said:
To quote the information manipulation page on the wiki


Also no, matter has fundamental building blocks to it so it would have info
Click to expand...
That isn't in question. All matter has information. What I said was that information can exist independently of matter. The Conceptual Manipulation page makes this distinction for Independent Universal Concepts. The Information Manipulation page doesn't do so for Fundamental information.
Delusionaltx2 said:
Feel like it would be a NLF to say Kratos surviving without idk a concept means he can survive without info especially since we've established that these two are different wavelengths
Click to expand...
Why? Souls in God of War can and have survived with some of their aspects removed. An entire plot point in Ragnarok revolves around this fact. You would have to prove that him losing something that at most is equivalent to his concept would be lethal to him when that isn't the case in-universe.
 
Planck69 said:
Why? Souls in God of War can and have survived with some of their aspects removed. An entire plot point in Ragnarok revolves around this fact. You would have to prove that him losing something that at most is equivalent to his concept would be lethal to him when that isn't the case in-universe.
Click to expand...
that is after proving that even CM1 Souls can be interacted with in first place.
 
Planck69 said:
That isn't in question. All matter has information. What I said was that information can exist independently of matter.
Click to expand...
you said info was tied to matter
Planck69 said:
The Conceptual Manipulation page makes this distinction for Independent Universal Concepts. The Information Manipulation page doesn't do so for Fundamental information.
Click to expand...
The distinction is tied to whatever part of reality they govern and for that to work on info you would need the reality it governs to encompass fundamental info
Planck69 said:
Why? Souls in God of War can and have survived with some of their aspects removed. An entire plot point in Ragnarok revolves around this fact. You would have to prove that him losing something that at most is equivalent to his concept would be lethal to him when that isn't the case in-universe.
Click to expand...
if I can survive without food does that now mean I can survive without air?

Info and concepts are both different; surviving without a concept doesn't just mean you can survive without info as both work differently from one another
 
Honestly, even diamondmanning and ignoring all of this, Kratos still senses that power gap and can just respond accordingly.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Inksaness
The Duo retread
Replies
5
Views
576
Delusionaltx2
Delusionaltx2
Maniaunavailable
My little undertale (Asriel Dreemur VS Discord)
Replies
25
Views
1K
Maniaunavailable
Maniaunavailable
CastoriceTheFifth
Irontomb Vs Asriel Dreemurr (Honkai: Star Rail Vs Undertale)
2 3 4
Replies
151
Views
9K
TegamiBachi25
TegamiBachi25
Inksaness
2 random duos fight against each other
Replies
2
Views
347
Inksaness
Inksaness
Lacku
  • Locked
Goku vs. Kratos (Teen Edition) (1-7-0) (GRACE)
2
Replies
46
Views
5K
Planck69
Planck69
Back
Top