Asriel vs Kratos (0-4-10)

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah, I'll pretty much say that's incon based on the above. The FRA train for Kratos was not really cool, y'all

 

[KLOL506]

If that's the case, then count me in for incon.

 

[chosen]

nvm changing to incon fra

 

[Shar122]

Incon FRA

 

[Pepsimanslover]

SBA makes them view each other as threats.
First thing Omega Flowey did was destroying everything he could. And it was something that Asriel planned to do initially, before mistakenly thinking that Frisk is Chara.

Well yeah but the level of threat differs. All Asriel knows is that a old man is looking at him lol.

It's the first thing he did as Omega Flowey against an opponent he didn't have a personal vendetta against

I see.

I vote incon then. It's just a who hits who first.

The FRA train for Kratos was not really cool, y'all

I lowkey thought it was a breath attack lol. So once time manip worked I thought it was ggs. Mb

 

[Pepsimanslover]

Incon for me as well.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Another variation, Kratos dumps his God of War thought based hax on Asriel. Psyhic hax, combustion, power null/absorption, soul hax.

Psychic hax: if it kills mind, it's incon. If not, Asriel wins(he has headache, but still alive)
Combustion: what exactly it gonna do to guy with low-godly
Soulhax: if it targets specifically souls, Asriel mind(separate from souls) would remain alive,

I would say that Kratos always dies, but Asriel sometimes remains alive, thus win.

 

[Qurbonboev]

But as long Asriel is above based on winning in unequalized speed matchups, I vote incon

 

[Pepsimanslover]

Soulhax: if it targets specifically souls, Asriel mind(separate from souls) would remain alive,

Yeah not in God of War. Minds are a part of the soul in the franchise.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Yeah not in God of War. Minds are a part of the soul in the franchise.

In God of War, yeah. But not in Undertale. So if he tries to affect Flowey through his souls, he would fail.
Even if we accepted your premise, Flowey doesn't have his original Soul. Affecting his souls would only affect their original owners(Fallen humans and monsters)

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Asriel has over 20,000 souls, how is soul hax a wincon here lol

 

[KLOL506]

Asriel has over 20,000 souls, how is soul hax a wincon here lol

My guy we haven't used soul count as potency in ages now, this is why I said to get the soul potency stuff up to order

 

[chosen]

Why yall even arguing about soul hax when Kratos has concept hax anyways

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

My guy we haven't used soul count as potency in ages now, this is why I said to get the soul potency stuff up to order

Has Kratos ever affected someone with multiple souls? You think Mahito is going to one-shot Asriel by transmuting one of his souls?
There's a reason having lots of souls is still listed as a resistance in Asriel's profile

 

[Planck69]

In God of War, yeah. But not in Undertale. So if he tries to affect Flowey through his souls, he would fail.
Even if we accepted your premise, Flowey doesn't have his original Soul. Affecting his souls would only affect their original owners(Fallen humans and monsters)

That's not how that works on the wiki. Verse equalization is a thing. So, Asriel isn't really surviving having his mind/soul/concept obliterated.

Asriel has over 20,000 souls, how is soul hax a wincon here lol

Unless they're all hidden away somewhere, why would this matter? Numbers don't mean anything for potency, doubly so against 5D hax.

 

[Planck69]

Anyways, I suppose incon is fine.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Why yall even arguing about soul hax when Kratos has concept hax anyways

Does it erases things, and can it erase all souls? If yes, Asriel would lose all his souls and revert back to Flowey. Kratos meanwhile is dead

 

[StrymULTRA]

Unless they're all hidden away somewhere, why would this matter? Numbers don't mean anything for potency, doubly so against 5D hax.

The idea is more "can Kratos affect more than a soul per time" thing.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Anyways, I suppose incon is fine.

And thats grace.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Psychic hax: if it kills mind, it's incon. If not, Asriel wins(he has headache, but still alive)
Combustion: what exactly it gonna do to guy with low-godly
Soulhax: if it targets specifically souls, Asriel mind(separate from souls) would remain alive,

he can. That GoW mind hax is ugly shit, it will be much more dangerous than headache. All magic in GoW metaphysical hax block, so it isn't simply corporeal.
seperate or combined Kratos can still interact with mind or soul or concept just fine, no problem. Mind nuke still works, makes no difference.

Asriel has over 20,000 souls, how is soul hax a wincon here lol

how does many Trillions souls sound to you? Not that it is relevant.

 

[Planck69]

The idea is more "can Kratos affect more than a soul per time" thing.

The same psychic abilities were used on an entire army of Barbarians, and he has all of Hades's abilities via the latter's soul, which includes commanding all the souls of the dead. He's fine on that end.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Hang on a minute does kratos actually lead with his thought based abilities?

 

[KLOL506]

Hang on a minute does kratos actually lead with his thought based abilities?

Kratos has no one singular defined tactic for his opponents. He uses whatever is appropriate to the situation, as per his tactics description on his page.

If ya don't agree with that, feel free to make a CRT on it.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Hang on a minute does kratos actually lead with his thought based abilities?

refer to standard battle tactics on his page.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Kratos has no one singular defined tactic for his opponents. He uses whatever is appropriate to the situation, as per his tactics description on his page.

If ya don't agree with that, feel free to make a CRT on it.

refer to standard battle tactics on his page.

I understand the whole "he'll use whatever he find approprete" situation, i'm not really against that idea

That said if like 99% of his arsenal can basically do the job, thats 99% of his arsenal he has to choose from

 

[Thermor]

I would say Asriel wins here because Kratos tends to go h2h in a fight, would Kratos even know that Asriel has thought based informational haxes? Info 2 is something that the GoW verse never comprehend. Even if Kratos tries to predict Asriel's moves, Asriel would commit to the thought based hax first before Kratos tries to do his attack.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

H2H against all major opponents who already resist his shit. Not a great example.

 

[Planck69]

I would say Asriel wins here because Kratos tends to go h2h in a fight, would Kratos even know that Asriel has thought based informational haxes? Info 2 is something that the GoW verse never comprehend. Even if Kratos tries to predict Asriel's moves, Asriel would commit to the thought based hax first before Kratos tries to do his attack.

He'd sense the EE, which is an ability he can comprehend, and the general danger as well, even without the specifics of Info Type 2.

Everyone else he's fought resisted a majority of his kit. That isn't the case here.

I understand the whole "he'll use whatever he find approprete" situation, i'm not really against that idea

That said if like 99% of his arsenal can basically do the job, thats 99% of his arsenal he has to choose from

99% can kill Azzy, only a tiny amount can do so before the threat he senses can kill him. He responded the same way against the Rider of Destiny and the Fates by immediately disarming them of their lethal moves (the Spear of Destiny for the former, their lethal magic for the latter).

 

[Delusionaltx2]

99% can kill Azzy, only a tiny amount can do so before the threat he senses can kill him.

What threat tho? If he can't comprehend info type 2 then from his perspective the ability would just be normal EE or maybe at best a minor form of minor reality warping (I put lots of emphasis on minor)

GoW has both of these things in spades, he's more likely to pay attention to things like the power difference if anything

He responded the same way against the Rider of Destiny and the Fates by immediately disarming them of their lethal moves (the Spear of Destiny for the former, their lethal magic for the latter).

these are things he can actually comprehend, not info manip

 

[Thermor]

He'd sense the EE, which is an ability he can comprehend, and the general danger as well, even without the specifics of Info Type 2.

Everyone else he's fought resisted a majority of his kit. That isn't the case here.

Well I doubt Kratos could sense EE since it's a metaphysical one (Info2). Unless Kratos can sense info 2 haxes like he did with concepts, I doubt he would commit to his own thought based hax.

 

[Planck69]

What threat tho? If he can't comprehend info type 2 then from his perspective the ability would just be normal EE or maybe at best a minor form of minor reality warping (I put lots of emphasis on minor)

GoW has both of these things in spades, he's more likely to pay attention to things like the power difference if anything

these are things he can actually comprehend, not info manip

....Yes, he would react to multiversal EE even if it was normal???? And if he senses the power difference, then he just... power nulls.

I'm unsure how either of these lead to him just swinging.

 

[Planck69]

Well I doubt Kratos could sense EE since it's a metaphysical one (Info2). Unless Kratos can sense info 2 haxes like he did with concepts, I doubt he would commit to his own thought based hax.

Info isn't more metaphysical than Type 1 CM (heck, one's bound to reality and one isn't), so I'm unsure where this whole cloth "info is utterly incomprehensible" argument is coming from.

He'd sense lethal danger from Asriel, that covered all of reality. And respond accordingly. Or he'd sense the infinite power gap, and respond accordingly.

 

[Thermor]

Info isn't more metaphysical than Type 1 CM (heck, one's bound to reality and one isn't), so I'm unsure where this whole cloth "info is utterly incomprehensible" argument is coming from.

He'd sense lethal danger from Asriel, that covered all of reality. And respond accordingly. Or he'd sense the infinite power gap, and respond accordingly.

I'm not arguing info is more metaphysical, just an entirely different wavelength than concepts. A character can sense spatial attacks but doesn't mean they can sense time attacks and vice versa.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Isn't Azzy infinitely strong already? The power level difference alone would spook Kratos into hax dump.

 

[Planck69]

Isn't Azzy infinitely strong already? The power level difference alone would spook Kratos into hax dump.

Yeah, I'm confused why not a single person has addressed that, despite me bringing it up multiple times.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I'm not arguing info is more metaphysical, just an entirely different wavelength than concepts. A character can sense spatial attacks but doesn't mean they can sense time attacks and vice versa.

Even matter is information. Even something simple as Chaos or entropy from thermodynamics is information distortion. It's really nothing special. It's not even relative to Type 2 Concepts. Atleast Cm2 is metaphysical even if reverse bound by causality into dependence.

 

[Thermor]

Even matter is information. Even something simple as Chaos or entropy from thermodynamics is information distortion. It's really nothing special. It's not even relative to Type 2 Concepts. Atleast Cm2 is metaphysical even if reverse bound by causality into dependence.

Where is that stated in our standards? In the metaphysical page, it's stated that all metaphysical haxes like concept, plot and info2 are all treated the same, all just different wavelengths.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Where is that stated in our standards? In the metaphysical page, it's stated that all metaphysical haxes like concept, plot and info2 are all treated the same, all just different wavelengths.

Go and read Information Manip page to while you are at it. It's description doesn't even hold up to CM2.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

....Yes, he would react to multiversal EE even if it was normal????

But if multiversal EE is something he can already deal with then why would he react to it as much as he would other things like the whole "I'm literally infinitely stronger than you" bit

And if he senses the power difference, then he just... power nulls.

How fast is the power null? and how does it work?

I'm unsure how either of these lead to him just swinging.

if kratos can't comprehend asriels more dangerous abilities and just sees him as a worse version of the fates then i'm not sure if he'd actually even bother with info type 2

 

[Thermor]

Go and read Information Manip page to while you are at it. It's description doesn't even hold up to CM2.

I believe the metaphysical page is more important as it deeply goes into interactions between metaphysical aspects. It directly says all are treated equal by default, no superiority over each other. If you think CM2 is superior, go ahead make a staff thread to remove the page.