Undertale: The big part of the series of big revisions, featuring Tier 1 and other things (Part 3/4)

[Justlol230]

It doesn't really matter, to be honest. Whatever language you use, there still isn’t any higher temporal dimension.

There's also the fact they're using the file being deleted and Chara "deleting them" for L1C args. Guys.

This is a 4th wall break mechanic. Those don't scale anywhere unless we admit that all Cartoon 4th wall breaks mean Popeye is L1C for punching his author. Are we seriously gonna use this when Monika, a character who did something very similar and probably way more, doesn't? She's L2C, for goodness sake.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

I've always wondered why the peak of the cast didn't receive Immesurable LS for outrunning the hypergoner since the pull is capable of straight up sucking timelines

Glad to see that was brought up, anyways I'm following

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Seeing “Hyper Goner did not destroy anything it just ‘cleaned’ timeline (whatever that means LOL)” in big ‘26:

While I’m too lazy and frankly not a big nerd on Japanese stuff, I wonder what is the alternative interpretation. What did Asriel… “cleanse” in the timeline? What are those rhombs supposed to represent? Why is this act seen as very powerful and Frisk tanking it as impressive by Asriel?

 

[Maniaunavailable]

should we tag staff or are we chilling

 

[Hecky2222]

should we tag staff or are we chilling

only staff can tag staff

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

only staff can tag staff

But regular members can still spam under staffs’ message walls!

 

[Hecky2222]

But regular members can still spam under staffs’ message walls!

Sure go on and ask them ig?

 

[Justlol230]

Seeing “Hyper Goner did not destroy anything it just ‘cleaned’ timeline (whatever that means LOL)” in big ‘26:

While I’m too lazy and frankly not a big nerd on Japanese stuff, I wonder what is the alternative interpretation. What did Asriel… “cleanse” in the timeline? What are those rhombs supposed to represent? Why is this act seen as very powerful and Frisk tanking it as impressive by Asriel?

Alright, let me address this.

The Rhombs are supposed to be the "memories" of the friends Frisk has made along the way. He will get rid of everything Frisk has built up and start anew, which isn't possible if there's nothing to build upon in the first place.

We already know from Omega Flowey that he didn't quite destroy the timeline, he simply edited it, which are VASTLY different feats.

In fact, the Underground remained completely untouched for the entire duration of the fight, NOTHING was damaged even after Hypergoner was used. And no, Asriel simply didn't "reset" to a point where all the damage was undone, nothing states or proves that.

I will say, I still firmly can believe the verse is L2C, the problem is there aren't really infinite space-time continuums/alternate timelines to justify any actual infinite anything, let alone L1C, and Asriel having infinite stats doesn't really equate to much when we see that Asriel finds it extremely difficult to kill Frisk. If it truly were infinite damage, that soul would be ERASED without even a sliver of a chance for Frisk to come back. The fact he finds it surprising Frisk can escape, not tank, escape the Hypergoner isn't really substantial proof that Frisk has that durability/AP. As for the fact they can escape leading to immeasurabe speed, again, what Asriel is ridding is of the journey Frisk has made. To "clean" the timeline and whatever is inside it, NOT other timelines entirely. They still exist. Where this scales is kinda weird and I personally wouldn't try to scale it.

 

[Justlol230]

should we tag staff or are we chilling

Try not to and leave it to staff tagging one another.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'll answer everything Justlol said later today.

I'll just say that both the Cosmology and the Debunk blogs have already covered greatly what they said, just that I can't give a full answer rn.

 

[Huesito88]

But regular members can still spam under staffs’ message walls!

Or you could just qoute them which leaves a notification on there alerts

 

[Justlol230]

I'll answer everything Justlol said later today.

I'll just say that both the Cosmology and the Debunk blogs have already covered greatly what they said, just that I can't give a full answer rn.

You could give a TL;DR, I honestly don't mind. As I've already said though, I disagree with the rebunk args and think that those are just misinterpretations of how strong the verse is.

Otherwise, we'd have to do some weird crap like Marvelous Sunday apparently having her own personal domain expansion/universe and it means she's universal??? Which is a lil ridiculous.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

also hasnt flowey/asriel say multiple times they can erase the ''world'' (which obv means everything). He said it too in his confession, that he wanted to desroy everythng and everyone because of the viewpoint chara had.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Alright, let me address this.

The Rhombs are supposed to be the "memories" of the friends Frisk has made along the way. He will get rid of everything Frisk has built up and start anew, which isn't possible if there's nothing to build upon in the first place.

This all sadly falls apart as Asriel states that memories of Frisk’s friends fade away with each death of Frisk. In his second phase. Way after Hyper Goner.

You are mixing up dialogues to feed the narrative.

We already know from Omega Flowey that he didn't quite destroy the timeline, he simply edited it, which are VASTLY different feats.

Cool, I don’t see how it is related though.

In fact, the Underground remained completely untouched for the entire duration of the fight, NOTHING was damaged even after Hypergoner was used. And no, Asriel simply didn't "reset" to a point where all the damage was undone, nothing states or proves that.

Omega Flowey’s reality warping is literally undone after his defeat. Don’t see why same can’t be with Asriel.

We literally SEE black void after the Asriel fight.

Brudda, did you read the blog? Legends of Localization isn't written by Toby. It is not absolute author statement. I have no clue why you are using it as absolute proof.

I will just provide the snippet from Strym’s blog regarding this:

Please, do not make a mistake, almost all the lore analysis given in the book isn't canon, as it was mainly written by Clyde and not Toby Fox, which is why he says that he's nothing but a documentary narrator who has zero say about Undertale's lore as he is not Toby Fox, and that his word and interpretation are valid as just the ones of any other fan. This however does not mean that everything in the book is automatically unusable either, just that the narration of Clyde regarding Undertale's lore and events cannot be used as author statement that would have the same validity as a typical game guidebook or Toby Fox's own words, but other things like the process of the localization itself, or Toby's direct words and quotes in the book (such as him explaining what is "Determination" in the context of Undertale) can instead be used for our purposes.

Asriel having infinite stats doesn't really equate to much when we see that Asriel finds it extremely difficult to kill Frisk. If it truly were infinite damage, that soul would be ERASED without even a sliver of a chance for Frisk to come back.

The fact he finds it surprising Frisk can escape, not tank, escape the Hypergoner isn't really substantial proof that Frisk has that durability/AP.

He is actually surprised even if you do not escape it but survive it.

(Timeskip 13:06)

As for the fact they can escape leading to immeasurabe speed, again, what Asriel is ridding is of the journey Frisk has made. To "clean" the timeline and whatever is inside it, NOT other timelines entirely. They still exist. Where this scales is kinda weird and I personally wouldn't try to scale it.

Absolute headcanon.

 

[Justlol230]

also hasnt flowey/asriel say multiple times they can erase the ''world'' (which obv means everything). He said it too in his confession, that he wanted to desroy everythng and everyone because of the viewpoint chara had.

He said  memories. Not timeline, and his implication means he wants to destroy all the good the memories of the world and rebuild it, which he can't do otherwise.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

This all sadly falls apart as Asriel states that memories of Frisk’s friends fade away with each death of Frisk. In his second phase. Way after Hyper Goner.

You are mixing up dialogues to feed the narrative.

Cool, I don’t see how it is related though.

Omega Flowey’s reality warping is literally undone after his defeat. Don’t see why same can’t be with Asriel.

We literally SEE black void after the Asriel fight.

Brudda, did you read the blog? Legends of Localization isn't written by Toby. It is not absolute author statement. I have no clue why you are using it as absolute proof.

I will just provide the snippet from Strym’s blog regarding this:




He is actually surprised even if you do not escape it but survive it.

(Timeskip 13:06)

Absolute headcanon.

this also, which clrealy refers to the timeline

 

[Maniaunavailable]

He said  memories. Not timeline, and his implication means he wants to destroy all the good the memories of the world and rebuild it, which he can't do otherwise.

idk about that, he is confessing that he regret saying this, he also mentions he didn't want to HARM anyone, so it isn't just the memories

 

[Delusionaltx2]

We already know from Omega Flowey that he didn't quite destroy the timeline, he simply edited it, which are VASTLY different feats.

I will say regarding this, significantly editing or effecting a 5D structure still correlates to 5D hax and in this case that would still make photoshop flowey 5D as DT physically amps their statistics as well (there is also the whole bit with save files just being their determination which adds credence to the idea that they scale to this)

 

[Maniaunavailable]

He said  memories. Not timeline, and his implication means he wants to destroy all the good the memories of the world and rebuild it, which he can't do otherwise.

also sorry for the 2nd mention lmao, but he clearly intended to at least mess up the timeline, having complete control over it, kinda like zamazu from DBS. Edit; He also says it in the context of the TRUE RESET, which further solidifies that he refers to the timeline. thats all from me, save us OP

 

[Qurbonboev]

There's also the fact they're using the file being deleted and Chara "deleting them" for L1C args. Guys.

File saves are diegetical to Undertale(aka exists in them). Omega Flowey starts fight by breaking our save file first, they are referred to several times in the gameplay

 

[Justlol230]

also sorry for the 2nd mention lmao, but he clearly intended to at least mess up the timeline, having complete control over it, kinda like zamazu from DBS. Edit; He also says it in the context of the TRUE RESET, which further solidifies that he refers to the timeline. thats all from me, save us OP

No no, we're good. Let me oversimplify and get my thoughts back in order.

What I meant to say is all the 5D arguments are basically trying to say that Asriel's Reality Warping clearly erased all the timelines.

I have an issue with this, because afaik, Toby is very explicit in showing what is actually destroyed. CHARA did it, but not Asriel. To me, it's clear that other timelines still existed in the Omega Flowey fight, what he does specifically is more like bring us to a personal pocket dimension and removing/blocking our access to a different save file. It's not like the file no longer exists, we still go back after all.

Even them, Chara's deletion of the files feat isn't used for Monika to get her to L1C.

I'm not gonna argue for the immeasurable speed stuff anymore, especially since Toby himself already admitted that some of the translations don't make sense but he wanted them in anyways... for what is practically the "lulz"

We already know the localization isn't perfect and can very easily be misinterpretated or not have the intended OG meaning because of a variety of wacky decisions (e.g. the "smells like sushi" line meaning something very different, aka vinegared rice, yet Toby insisted on keeping it because "he thought it was the line was famous" despite it making NO sense in Undyne's context since there should be no rice involved in that scene iirc). This was stated in the blogs you provided outright.

• Toby Fox's word is still absolute through the entire localization process, as he could fully control how certain words gets localized and request that certain localization choices get changed to what he wants at any moment before the Japanese release, such as him enforcing . Another case of this is him directly telling to the Japanese translator to keep the line of Undyne "smelling like sushi" in Japanese despite that there meaning "vinegared rice" there, because he thought the line was famous.

Regardless, I personally just don't think Undertale has any L1C scaling. It's not like Chara can pop out of the screen and then straight up write on it like it's fictional, aka Quantitative R>F, and again, there's no extra dimensional axis for 5D to be considered imo. Using the "save file is 5D" arg feels silly when Undertale is known for doing 4th wall breaks... similar to Monika. We don't have Monika at L1C just because she can delete the files of other entities in the game.

The issue is the characters ARE diegetic, I'm not disagreeing with that at all. The problem is because they're in the game, they are limited  by the game and whatever keeps it afloat... like the save files.

SAVE files being broken feels more like blocking access rather than straight up annihilating the timeline outright. As I said earlier, nothing says that that timeline is destroyed. We literally go back to it like nothing happened. It's likely a Rupert's Droplet situation where deleting certain weak points can cause a massive chain reaction but actually directly destroying it requires far more complicated and potentially even unreachable levels of power.

SAVE files are more akin to the world itself, the data, rather than being completely separated from it just because it can retain data that Asriel/Chara "destroyed". It  is the world, THAT is why it's able to retain data. It isn't superior to the world in any 5D capacity, it IS the world, and hence it causes massive chain reactions when edited. The destruction of timelines is, really, more like chopping off branches off a tree. The tree still exists, it has to to be interacted with in the verse. And Chara, despite destroying "everything", leaves the foundation of that tree to let us still interact with it, because destroying it entirely would also destroy Chara. They can't be separated properly like what a 5D entity would be to the cosmology, and as I've already said, the cosmology doesn't feel 5D. It can't really be 5D when they're significantly affected by things that haven't been shown to be beyond 4D outside of taking some weird interpretations with how information manipulation is utilized.

Again, we don't have Monika L1C, we just have her with Information Manipulation since that's what she can edit, and hence she's L2C. This should also apply to Undertale.

TL;DR: This is more akin to a 4D object self-imploding because of a glaring weak point (save files and information manip) rather than 5D entities destroying it.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'll just say that using Monika as an argument is just purely dishonest because the reason for Low 1-C isn't "lol 4th wall break", it's because of the cosmological setting of the verse. DDLC's game world is explicitly a single universe, idk why are you trying to put her in the same boat.

Most of this relies on the JP translation, because "Toby knows Japanese since 2018 and can speak with JP people fluently enough, and also worked closely with the folk in the translation team" (e.g. the line saying Asriel will "destroy" the timeline instead of purge). I find this kinda ironic since most people do the inverse with things translated from CN or JP, with the argument being "most of those being inaccurate" despite a lot of them being officially endorsed by the creators themselves (e.g. Honkai).

But Toby Fox didn't just endorse it, he directly worked on it and checked every single line. This is a pretty different and more through localization method.

Even then, the "Toby knows Japanese" stuff is only for supporting evidence, did you even read the canon blog throughly?

Lmao at this image.

"very contextual language", uses the hiragana for annihilation/destruction.

also that image is the cropped one that I've specifically countered in the canon blog too lmao.

The Rhombs are supposed to be the "memories" of the friends Frisk has made along the way. He will get rid of everything Frisk has built up and start anew, which isn't possible if there's nothing to build upon in the first place.

wtf are "rhombs"

We already know from Omega Flowey that he didn't quite destroy the timeline, he simply edited it, which are VASTLY different feats.

Nobody is saying that he did, though. He is Low 1-C for completely taking over the Game World and being able to overwrite it to his whims, which as already explained in the blog it's sufficient to be comparable to destruction/creation.

In fact, the Underground remained completely untouched for the entire duration of the fight, NOTHING was damaged even after Hypergoner was used. And no, Asriel simply didn't "reset" to a point where all the damage was undone, nothing states or proves that.

Stuff like "Napstablook was still alive" was literally debunked here.

What I meant to say is all the 5D arguments are basically trying to say that Asriel's Reality Warping clearly erased all the timelines.

None is saying this. Asriel simply outscales Omega Flowey who can completely overwite the Game World which contains a higher temporal dimension, and he scales from Chara who completely wiped out said game world.

I'm not gonna argue for the immeasurable speed stuff anymore, especially since Toby himself already admitted that some of the translations don't make sense but he wanted them in anyways... for what is practically the "lulz"

He didn't, what are you talking about?

We already know the localization isn't perfect and can very easily be misinterpretated or not have the intended OG meaning because of a variety of wacky decisions (e.g. the "smells like sushi" line meaning something very different, aka vinegared rice, yet Toby insisted on keeping it because "he thought it was the line was famous" despite it making NO sense in Undyne's context since there should be no rice involved in that scene iirc). This was stated in the blogs you provided outright.

• A piece of evidence used to undermine the reliability of the Japanese version is this, where it says that "references could be easily lost in translation", but it is highly out of context. For first, the scan mentions that this happens without high cooperation between creator and localizer, and you can notice that the scan is heavily cropped. The reason why, is that if you see the full scan, you'll see that the actual context behind the statement was that "Hyper Goner" was called like this in English because it was a reference to an attack of Final Fantasy VI, which was called "Goner" in English, but "Missing" in Japanese, and although Toby said that it wasn't important to retain the reference as long as the name was "extremely powerful and cool", the localization team chose to maintain the reference in also the Japanese version.

The thing you use to say that the JP version isn't perfect is literally contextless garbo that is a piece of the entire thing, it was talking about simple references rather than serious lore stuff LMAO.

Regardless, I personally just don't think Undertale has any L1C scaling. It's not like Chara can pop out of the screen and then straight up write on it like it's fictional, aka Quantitative R>F, and again, there's no extra dimensional axis for 5D to be considered imo. Using the "save file is 5D" arg feels silly when Undertale is known for doing 4th wall breaks... similar to Monika. We don't have Monika at L1C just because she can delete the files of other entities in the game.

Again why is Monika any relevant? DDLC and Undertale work fundamentally differently.

Even Tier 1 was never around "Quantitative R>F", this was something you made up. It's about a higher temporal dimension, not a spatial one anyways.

SAVE files are more akin to the world itself, the data, rather than being completely separated from it just because it can retain data that Asriel/Chara "destroyed". It  is the world, THAT is why it's able to retain data. It isn't superior to the world in any 5D capacity, it IS the world, and hence it causes massive chain reactions when edited. The destruction of timelines is, really, more like chopping off branches off a tree. The tree still exists, it has to to be interacted with in the verse. And Chara, despite destroying "everything", leaves the foundation of that tree to let us still interact with it, because destroying it entirely would also destroy Chara. They can't be separated properly like what a 5D entity would be to the cosmology, and as I've already said, the cosmology doesn't feel 5D. It can't really be 5D when they're significantly affected by things that haven't been shown to be beyond 4D outside of taking some weird interpretations with how information manipulation is utilized.

Chara rn has literally NEP on an informational level because of them being the same void that was left after the game's destruction, though.

Also, the SAVE File has shown to be fully immune to things beneath it, why are you lying?

 

[StrymULTRA]

There's also the fact they're using the file being deleted and Chara "deleting them" for L1C args. Guys.

This is a 4th wall break mechanic. Those don't scale anywhere unless we admit that all Cartoon 4th wall breaks mean Popeye is L1C for punching his author. Are we seriously gonna use this when Monika, a character who did something very similar and probably way more, doesn't? She's L2C, for goodness sake.

What the **** are you talking about?

The "deleting the file" is to prove that Chara deleted the entire game, that is a currenty accepted reason on why they're 2-B right now, why are you trying to warp the argument here????

 

[Justlol230]

What the **** are you talking about?

The "deleting the file" is to prove that Chara deleted the entire game, that is a currenty accepted reason on why they're 2-B right now, why are you trying to warp the argument here????

Which is why I mentioned Monika being L2C, THAT is also the reason why she's at the level she is.

What I forgot to add, and this is my own fault but I'll add it now, is that NOTHING in the verse is L1C to show that Chara can actually SCALE to L1C. Them destroying the cosmology is valid.

The size of the cosmology isn't.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Which is why I mentioned Monika being L2C, THAT is also the reason why she's at the level she is.

What I forgot to add, and this is my own fault but I'll add it now, is that NOTHING in the verse is L1C to show that Chara can actually SCALE to L1C. Them destroying the cosmology is valid.

The size of the cosmology isn't.

You really shouldn't have used Monika or Popeye to begin with, then, because from how you worded it you were seeming to say "are you saying Chara is Tier 1 coz 4th wall break?"

Like I am not against using other verses as arguments, but here the situation is absolutely not the same.

 

[StrymULTRA]

We already know the localization isn't perfect and can very easily be misinterpretated or not have the intended OG meaning because of a variety of wacky decisions (e.g. the "smells like sushi" line meaning something very different, aka vinegared rice, yet Toby insisted on keeping it because "he thought it was the line was famous" despite it making NO sense in Undyne's context since there should be no rice involved in that scene iirc). This was stated in the blogs you provided outright.

Oh ye, forgot this.

This is another lie, the "smells like sushi" line is a thing of also the original english release, it's not up to you to decide what makes sense in the localization.

 

[Kellex]

I was reading the thread for a bit until I saw this comment:

I will say, I still firmly can believe the verse is L2C, the problem is there aren't really infinite space-time continuums/alternate timelines to justify any actual infinite anything, let alone L1C, and Asriel having infinite stats doesn't really equate to much when we see that Asriel finds it extremely difficult to kill Frisk. If it truly were infinite damage, that soul would be ERASED without even a sliver of a chance for Frisk to come back. The fact he finds it surprising Frisk can escape, not tank, escape the Hypergoner isn't really substantial proof that Frisk has that durability/AP. As for the fact they can escape leading to immeasurabe speed, again, what Asriel is ridding is of the journey Frisk has made. To "clean" the timeline and whatever is inside it, NOT other timelines entirely. They still exist. Where this scales is kinda weird and I personally wouldn't try to scale it.

Maybe I can kinda get what you mean by the Low 1-C stuff, but even if you were to disagree with it, the verse is NOT Low 2-C.
I'm questioning whether if you actually read the blog thoroughly or not.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I will say, I still firmly can believe the verse is L2C, the problem is there aren't really infinite space-time continuums/alternate timelines to justify any actual infinite anything, let alone L1C

I have somehow skipped this (thanks @Kellex)

Debunked here.

Asriel having infinite stats doesn't really equate to much when we see that Asriel finds it extremely difficult to kill Frisk.

Also debunked here, it's a Frisk upscale not an anti-feat for Asriel.

The fact he finds it surprising Frisk can escape, not tank, escape the Hypergoner isn't really substantial proof that Frisk has that durability/AP. As for the fact they can escape leading to immeasurabe speed, again, what Asriel is ridding is of the journey Frisk has made. To "clean" the timeline and whatever is inside it, NOT other timelines entirely. They still exist. Where this scales is kinda weird and I personally wouldn't try to scale it.

All of this was also debunked here (alongside the headcanon of "nothing in the Underground was harmed", idk from where you get that, the opposite was shown actually).

 

[Justlol230]

I was reading the thread for a bit until I saw this comment:


Maybe I can kinda get what you mean by the Low 1-C stuff, but even if you were to disagree with it, the verse is NOT Low 2-C.
I'm questioning whether if you actually read the blog thoroughly or not.

Let me fix that: I don't think that Undertale's Cosmology is L2C, I'm saying that's why  Monika is L2C. (I forgot to ******* change it since I kept type L2C and my mind defaulted to that shit, that's my fault).

More accurately, it's bare minimum 2C with enough args for 2B due to all the previous users of RESET and all the timelines THEY made.

 

[Da3ggman]

Low 1-C Undertale, huh? Never thought I’d see the day. I’m lying, I absolutely knew this was where it was going, anyone with half a brain stem could see it from a mile away

I will agree on the premise that under our current definitions, I think it fits. Granted, I disagree with our standards and how many verses get away with it, but as is, sure, why not. Tbh Hypertimelines only exist to wank verses beyond what they should be, only like 2 notable verses on the wiki with one should actually have it, but that’s a rant for another day.

Only annoying thing now is that I have to get the hypertimeline slop done before I smite Undertale and Deltarune from existence….or maybe I just tackle the finite first and deal with it in parts….decisions, decisions.

Something something Icarus

 

[Gooldiddy]

Heads up for anyone trying to debunk Hyper Goner in the future, the projectiles sucked up by Hyper Goner are explicitly labelled in the code as "debris". they aren't memories or whatnot, they're debris from the timeline being sucked in. Just to clear that up.

 

[Qurbonboev]

If there is any kind of RESET, then Sans shouldn’t have any "reports" about those things because everything is subjected to the reset itself.

You are conflating RESET and TRUE RESET. RESET doesn't fully erase things. Toriel can remember our favourite pie, Undyne can remember us being friends, etc. It's only TRUE RESET that fully erases everything(except Chara memories, but they are special).
Flowey done numerous RESETs in the past and says so directly (mostly due to Sans). If monsters can vaguely remember things after RESET, it's wouldn't be out of order for Sans to be able to somehow register them

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Low 1-C Undertale, huh? Never thought I’d see the day. I’m lying, I absolutely knew this was where it was going, anyone with half a brain stem could see it from a mile away

I will agree on the premise that under our current definitions, I think it fits. Granted, I disagree with our standards and how many verses get away with it, but as is, sure, why not. Tbh Hypertimelines only exist to wank verses beyond what they should be, only like 2 notable verses on the wiki with one should actually have it, but that’s a rant for another day.

Only annoying thing now is that I have to get the hypertimeline slop done before I smite Undertale and Deltarune from existence….or maybe I just tackle the finite first and deal with it in parts….decisions, decisions.

Something something Icarus

Is one of them Dragon Ball

 

[Hecky2222]

Is one of them Dragon Ball

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

You are conflating RESET and TRUE RESET. RESET doesn't fully erase things. Toriel can remember our favourite pie, Undyne can remember us being friends, etc. It's only TRUE RESET that fully erases everything(except Chara memories, but they are special).
Flowey done numerous RESETs in the past and says so directly (mostly due to Sans). If monsters can vaguely remember things after RESET, it's wouldn't be out of order for Sans to be able to somehow register them

I don’t think I should even have to explain this, but “memories,” especially vague and limited ones, are not the same thing as reports, which by definition implies something written down somewhere, whether physically or digitally.

The difference between RESET and TRUE RESET is irrelevant here.

Resets would still invalidate the very act of writing a report every single time, so Sans would not have “reports” about the RESETS of the human if that were the case.

I don’t care whether you think Sans is talking about Flowey or not. The issue is that supporters try to use the logic of “everything stopped” as if it necessarily refers to RESET, and then use that to claim that the timeline “jumping around” must be happening inside some “higher temporal dimension.” That idea is not supported by the text at any point, and the game does not suggest it either, unless you interpret a very direct mechanic with little room for ambiguity, like SAVE, in the way that best serves your agenda.

That's what I explained and addressed in the little back and forth I had with the OP in the 1st/2nd pages of the thread.

My position on the matter should be as clear as water.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Only annoying thing now is that I have to get the hypertimeline slop done before I smite Undertale and Deltarune from existence….or maybe I just tackle the finite first and deal with it in parts….decisions, decisions.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I don’t think I should even have to explain this, but “memories,” especially vague and limited ones, are not the same thing as reports, which by definition implies something written down somewhere, whether physically or digitally.

The difference between RESET and TRUE RESET is irrelevant here.

Resets would still invalidate the very act of writing a report every single time, so Sans would not have “reports” about the RESETS of the human if that were the case.

I don’t care whether you think Sans is talking about Flowey or not. The issue is that supporters try to use the logic of “everything stopped” as if it necessarily refers to RESET, and then use that to claim that the timeline “jumping around” must be happening inside some “higher temporal dimension.” That idea is not supported by the text at any point, and the game does not suggest it either, unless you interpret a very direct mechanic with little room for ambiguity, like SAVE, in the way that best serves your agenda.

That's what I explained and addressed in the little back and forth I had with the OP in the 1st/2nd pages of the thread.

My position on the matter should be as clear as water.

Genuine question, does anything say Sans and his associates were specifically writing new reports every time a RESET happens? Considering they were analysing the spacetime continuum and somehow knew roughly when “everything ends”, I always assumed their reports were about past and possible future uses of the SAVE/LOAD/RESET power.

 

[Qurbonboev]

I don’t think I should even have to explain this, but “memories,” especially vague and limited ones, are not the same thing as reports, which by definition implies something written down somewhere, whether physically or digitally.

The difference between RESET and TRUE RESET is irrelevant here.

Resets would still invalidate the very act of writing a report every single time, so Sans would not have “reports” about the RESETS of the human if that were the case.

I almost wrote whole blanket trying to refute you, but mid writing it realised that your point just doesn't work.
Your point is:
"How can someone have reports about RESET, if they would erase reports upon happening?"
Now try to translate it to IRL language:
"How can someone have reports about previous catastrophic impact events if such impact event would destroy reports themselves"
"How can someone have reports about previous Mega Vulcan eruptions, if eruption itself would destroy any kind of civilization, including reports"

How do you think IRL scientists can report about whether happened in various point of Big Bang? They collect secondary evidence and try to create picture of whatever happened in the past.

RESETs explicitly don't erase all evidence of themselves. If normal monsters still can feel de javu after them, there should be other secondary effects of RESETs.
Sans can predict existence erasure in the future. It places him above IRL human civilization. If he can do such a feat, what is stopping him from detecting whatever secondary effects RESETs have?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Resets would still invalidate the very act of writing a report every single time, so Sans would not have “reports” about the RESETS of the human if that were the case.

We are not even saying that? We know that Sans is already aware of the RESETs happening, hence why the most logical conclusion of the "everything ends" is the desctruction of the game.

That idea is not supported by the text at any point, and the game does not suggest it either, unless you interpret a very direct mechanic with little room for ambiguity, like SAVE, in the way that best serves your agenda.

What exactly stops me from also saying the same here?

Even then, it's all said to happen in a single flow of time, I think it's being clear the intent.

My position on the matter should be as clear as water.

Imma ngl I do not get how that point refutes the premise of Low 1-C, it's something that is been flying past me ever since the beginning of the debate.

Genuine question, does anything say Sans and his associates were writing new reports every time a RESET happens? Considering they were analysing the spacetime continuum and somehow knew roughly when “everything ends”, I always assumed their reports were about past and possible future uses of the SAVE/LOAD/RESET power.

Nah, Sans isn't talking about only RESETs, also of the SAVEs as otherwise he wouldn't talk about different sans-es after the bertrayal kill.

RESETs explicitly don't erase all evidence of themselves. If normal monsters still can feel de javu after them, there should be other secondary effects of RESETs.

That and the fact that Frisk and Flowey remember RESETs unlike a TRUE RESET.

 

[EnderLord8]

Wow, I was going to say I agree, but seeing the size of this discussion... Could someone give me a summary of what was argued here?