Undertale: The big part of the series of big revisions, featuring Tier 1 and other things (Part 3/4)

[StrymULTRA]

Hello again. This part of the series of big revisions has been waiting for a long, long time, and alongside irl problems, Deltarune's revisions and other slow downs, I am finally here to tell the actual apex of these CRTs.

A special thanks to @Eden_Warlock99, @LittleGuy99, @Qurbonboev, @Monsters_fight and especially @Gooldiddy and @TheOrangeGuy09 for these arguments, as this CRT and the following arguments wouldn't be possible.

The BIG stuff​

Baisically, I have made these following (soon to be) blogs, which are ALL IMPERATIVE TO READ as they contain the entire basis of the CRT to proceed further:

• A canon explanation of Undertale and Deltarune, which explains what secondary material is usable for lore implementations basing on Toby Fox's own words, and why the Japanese version is usable to expand the dialogues of the original english version.
• A cosmology blog that implements more information what is the "Game World" and why it's a Low 1-C Hypertimeline for both Undertale and Deltarune (an update on the current cosmology blog)
• An expanation on why the Hyper Goner has destroyed the timeline and why it grants to the characters both Immeasurable speed and lifting strength (also an update on the current blog on the feat).
• A blog that addresses all the possible misconceptions and counter-arguments that usually pop out in Undertale discussions and that can be potentially brought up here.

For a summary of everything, the stuff that has to be implemented is this:

• The "Game World" gets upgraded from 2-B to Low 1-C structure because of it being a higher space-time continuum due to having a greater time axis where the SAVE File exists and all the timelines made from SAVEs and LOADs are encompassed in, which is supported by it being a constant between timelines and not even the direct destruction of a timeline tampering with it.
• The Hyper Goner isn't just an attack requiring Immeasurable speed to dodge, but also needs Immeasurable lifting strength to be opposed given that it devours the timeline through a pull that Frisk always manages to overpower and oppose with their own strength.
• Omega Flowey is baseline Low 1-C due to him managing to control and overwrite to his whim the entirety of the Game World and mess up to its mechanics, including the SAVE File. Asriel in his God of Hyperdeath form is infinitely above baseline due to his Check Stats, with Frisk, Chara, Player and Humanity being roughly comparable despite being weaker for reasons already in the profiles, but also specified across the blogs.
• Deltarune's own Game World also becomes Low 1-C due to it being canonically a videogame like Undertale that is also played by the same Player entity.
• Edit, forgot: Chara accessing the TRUE RESET should become from a "possibly" to a straight up thing given that everything in the context hints at them using that to restore the Game World at the end of the Genocide route.

Lesser stuff​

These are all things that were also brought up in the blogs, but let's list them here:

• Flowey loses Immunity to Emphatic Manipulation as it's clear that he can still feel emotions, with only compassion, love and hope being excluded due to his soulless nature. Because of this, the Immunity should become a Limited Resistance at best.
• The Hyper Goner shouldn't be treated as Existence Erasure as nothing ever says it does, it just destroys the timeline, and only Chara has explicit statement of it. Even then, the god tiers would still have EE resistance due to Frisk surviving to the erasure of the game world and other god tiers scaling thanks to DT.
• Edit, forgot: Monsters' weakness to murder intent was clarified, just so that they do not instantly crack like paper the moment they see something mad at them.

The next CRT will be specifically about the Player's new keys due to Deltarune stuff, but that's not a talk for here.

Staff votes​

Agreements: @DarkDragonMedeus, @Maverick_Zero_X, @Planck69

Neutrals:

Disagreements:

 

[Monsters_fight]

I 10000000% AGREE

 

[Axorandom0]

It’s so peak that I’m forced to agree

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Automatic agree

 

[EnderLord8]

Following

this is peak

 

[ShionAH]

Sans should scale too right?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Sans should scale too right?

Everyone in UTDR being Low 1-C with Immeasurable speed/LS, love to see it.

 

[Phoenks]

I agree that Flowey's immunity should be removed and Hyper Goner isn't existence erasure.

I'm a bit curious why we assume Frisk outran the Hyper Goner instead of just surviving it. He was inside of the attack, which you acknowledge was sucking in the timeline. He didn't "physically outrun the destruction of space-time," he just didn't get sucked in and destroyed by the attack which destroyed space-time. Asriel also just mentions that he "survived." I don't really agree with the immeasurable speed or lifting strength.

As for the hyper-timeline, I can definitely see Undertale being a game where there is a higher-timeline that overlaps all of the branching timelines that arise from the saving and loading abilities. Especially since the loads/saves are a more metafictional game concepts that probably don't rely on physical space-time at all. I think it's definitely realistic that the time which the saves/loads operate on is completely distinct from that which the monsters in the underground operate on.

However, the fact that concretely separating them sort of relies on the 'Hyper Goner destroyed the timeline' interpretation, I think I have to remain neutral for now. I'm still not fully convinced that is the case even after reading the counterarguments.

But if you are someone who agrees that it destroyed the timeline, then this is actually pretty blatant to me as far as hyper-timeline stuff goes.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'm a bit curious why we assume Frisk outran the Hyper Goner instead of just surviving it. He was inside of the attack, which you acknowledge was sucking in the timeline. He didn't "physically outrun the destruction of space-time," he just didn't get sucked in and destroyed by the attack which destroyed space-time. Asriel also just mentions that he "survived." I don't really agree with the immeasurable speed or lifting strength.

Your interpretation only works if Frisk gets fully overwhelmed from the attack no matter what, and we have several scripted attacks that Frisk is just fully poweless to dodge like Sans' betray kill attack, Asriel's "final flash", Flowey's ring pellets or Mettaton's electricity.

However for the Hyper Goner that is not the case, Frisk can fully oppose the hit and completely avoid it with physical movements. If that does not happen, then they'd be reduced to just 1 HP, but if you dodge it, your HPs remain the same.

 

[Phoenks]

Your interpretation only works if Frisk gets fully overwhelmed from the attack no matter what, and we have several scripted attacks that Frisk is just fully poweless to dodge like Sans' betray kill attack, Asriel's "final flash", Flowey's ring pellets or Mettaton's electricity.

However for the Hyper Goner that is not the case, Frisk can fully oppose the hit and completely avoid it with physical movements. If that does not happen, then they'd be reduced to just 1 HP, but if you dodge it, your HPs remain the same.

The attack isn't the white diamonds that we see Frisk avoiding though. Even you seem to acknowledge that the actual attack is Asriel sucking in the timeline for your lifting strength argument, which is something Frisk is not avoiding. He is already at the center of this "attack" when it starts. You're saying that he "outran space and time" because the visuals show him avoiding white diamonds (which you are interpreting to be "the destruction of space-time" as a physical attack), but then saying that he is not getting pulled in because the attack is sucking in space-time. I feel that these two things are contradictory.

If anything LS seems more likely, I really don't get the speed part though.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The attack isn't the white diamonds that we see Frisk avoiding though. Even you seem to acknowledge that the actual attack is Asriel sucking in the timeline for your lifting strength argument, which is something Frisk is not avoiding. He is already at the center of this "attack" when it starts. You're saying that he "outran space and time" because the visuals show him avoiding white diamonds (which you are interpreting to be "the destruction of space-time" as a physical attack), but then saying that he is not getting pulled in because the attack is sucking in space-time. I feel that these two things are contradictory.

How are they a contradiction when you just can be both? The attack is still pulling a force that always forces you at the center, and opposing it is the LS part, yes.

The speed instead comes from the dodging these white diamonds, because they happen at the same time the timeline gets destroyed, something implying that Frisk is actively reacting to things happening during the destruction of space-time.

I think that I get where you're coming from (the "white thing" that covers the screen is the destruction of the timeline, but the white diamonds are the attack itself), but the problem is that you're seeing it in tunnel vision. Frisk is still physically moving around while also resisting the pull, he wasn't simply resisting it while standing there, something that also would be Immeasurable speed by its own.

Even then UT is a game with pretty limited and incosistent graphics, how can you accurately display a timeline bust lol.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Flowey loses Immunity to Emphatic Manipulation as it's clear that he can still feel emotions, with only compassion, love and hope being excluded due to his soulless nature. Because of this, the Immunity should become a Limited Resistance at best.

Wouldn't Limited Immunity be better, since he still can't feel those very specific emotions?

Unless we interpret his apparent “lack” of compassion not as something inherent, but as the result of unaddressed trauma compounded by the SAVE and LOAD ability removing any real consequences from his actions, which made him care less and less about what he does to others, and Flowey just mistook it as his lack of SOUL due to monster culture preaching the idea that their SOULs are the origin of their love, hope and compassion, which is very much reinforced by the fact that Flowey is shown to care about others, see him begging for you to let Frisk live their life and in the Alarm Clock dialogue where it’s revealed that he went out of his way to carry Toriel back to her bed after she collapsed on the floor from exhaustion.

Oh also this affects Chara too

The Hyper Goner shouldn't be treated as Existence Erasure as nothing ever says it does, it just destroys the timeline, and only Chara has explicit statement of it. Even then, the god tiers would still have EE resistance due to Frisk surviving to the erasure of the game world and other god tiers scaling thanks to DT

What's the evidence they did again? We even say Chara went back to their nonexistent state after destroying the world, and you know, it'd be weird for Chara to destroy themself from that attack and not Frisk (And the Chara we see is probably just possessed Frisk tbh)

 

[Edutyn]

Following

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I’m not gonna speak on the Low 1-C stuff, but I agree with everything else including Immeasurable LS.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Wouldn't Limited Immunity be better, since he still can't feel those very specific emotions?

Unless we interpret his apparent “lack” of compassion not as something inherent, but as the result of unaddressed trauma compounded by the SAVE and LOAD ability removing any real consequences from his actions, which made him care less and less about what he does to others, and Flowey just mistook it as his lack of SOUL due to monster culture preaching the idea that their SOULs are the origin of their love, hope and compassion, which is very much reinforced by the fact that Flowey is shown to care about others, see him begging for you to let Frisk live their life and in the Alarm Clock dialogue where it’s revealed that he went out of his way to carry Toriel back to her bed after she collapsed on the floor from exhaustion.

Oh also this affects Chara too

Idc how it's worded, whatever fits the site goes there.

What's the evidence they did again? We even say Chara went back to their nonexistent state after destroying the world, and you know, it'd be weird for Chara to destroy themself from that attack and not Frisk (And the Chara we see is probably just possessed Frisk tbh)

Chara already is nonexistent even before the Absolute on their current profile.

Even then, all the things about Frisk dying to the game destruction are here

 

[Phoenks]

How are they a contradiction when you just can be both? The attack is still pulling a force that always forces you at the center, and opposing it is the LS part, yes.

You just told me that the reason my interpretation doesn't work is because "it's not an unavoidable attack."

But it is an unavoidable attack. The attack is Asriel sucking in the timeline, which is a cutscene that you are forced to go into no matter what. You begin inside of the attack that's sucking in the timeline and you're resisting it pull the timeline to pieces.

But your speed interpretation requires you to act as though Frisk dodging the white diamonds is him "physically outrunning the destruction of space-time" when that's not the case at all? He's just not getting pulled in by the attack.

Also, just resisting something like that isn't immeasurable speed lol. LS would already cover it, if that was accepted.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll follow for now, going to take a while to read all this.

 

[StrymULTRA]

But it is an unavoidable attack.

Why are our HPs fine?

You begin inside of the attack that's sucking in the timeline and you're resisting it pull the timeline to pieces.

Something you physically react to with speed.

But your speed interpretation requires you to act as though Frisk dodging the white diamonds is him "physically outrunning the destruction of space-time" when that's not the case at all? He's just not getting pulled in by the attack.

While they also move around left and right too.

Edit: It came out to me that physically reacting to attacks that absorb space-time itself alongside you qualifies for Immeasurable speed as well, and this makes sense given you're not infinitely slower than an attack that absorbs all of time at once. Meaning we do have precedence on this.

Also, just resisting something like that isn't immeasurable speed lol. LS would already cover it, if that was accepted.

Good thing they're not just resisting it.

I'll follow for now, going to take a while to read all this.

Take your time man.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Wouldn't Limited Immunity be better, since he still can't feel those very specific emotions?

I thought of that too tbh

Oh also this affects Chara too

IIRC Chara’s statement was kinda more general about human emotions so I can see it fully, especially since Chara barely shows any emotion, but eh maybe too iffy.

 

[StrymULTRA]

IIRC Chara’s statement was kinda more general about human emotions so I can see it fully, especially since Chara barely shows any emotion, but eh maybe too iffy.

If we wanna be fair Chara didn't lose a monster SOUL, as only these are made from emotions, but their justification for resistance are different so I don't think it applies much here.

 

[SnakesCity]

Never seen something so peak in all my days. I obviously agree with everything here

 

[Qurbonboev]

Obviously I agree

 

[Re5yh]

Looks Good, I agree

 

[Homie890]

Jesus Christ.
1-C Undertale... Never in my rarest dreams.
Agree

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The OP looks good to me after giving it a good read.

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

Never seen so much peak in my life, easy agree

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

my only question is that, would Asriel still have EE due to DT scaling to chara or being above Omega flowery, who also has a form of EE "debatably"?

 

[Poketmonsrs]

This looks good so I agree

 

[StrymULTRA]

my only question is that, would Asriel still have EE due to DT scaling to chara or being above Omega flowery, who also has a form of EE "debatably"?

Both ye.

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

Both ye.

Understood, thanks for clarifying

 

[LittleGuy99]

Hell yeah, obviously I agree!

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I would agree if there were any mention that the game worlds of Undertale and Deltarune come from or participate in some kind of branching, but that statement doesn’t exist.

The argument about SAVE doesn’t seem sufficient to me. There are several other ways to explain what happens, with the most normal being that SAVE is simply a way to store the data of the current timeline and then "update/actualize" it every time a LOAD is done, which aligns with the part of the blog that argues that in the Undertale world, game mechanics are part of the canon. I agree with that.

I’m on board with seeing the total cosmology of the Tobyverse as a small megaverse consisting of (for now) 2 multiverses (UT and DT), but that doesn’t necessarily require a scalable or significant higher dimension for it to be possible. As I said before, if there were a mention that UT and DT come from a branching process similar to MWI, that would show that a higher temporal axis exists. But the current evidence seems equivalent to picking pieces from different plates and trying to glue them together to form a single composition.

Everything else seems fine, but I disagree with the Low 1-C.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I would agree if there were any mention that the game worlds of Undertale and Deltarune come from or participate in some kind of branching, but that statement doesn’t exist.

Occam's Razor. You do not need information to be spoonfed, both games share a similat cosmological works and are even called "worlds" by Toby. I think it's simple enough to argue both being the same dimensionally.

The argument about SAVE doesn’t seem sufficient to me. There are several other ways to explain what happens, with the most normal being that SAVE is simply a way to store the data of the current timeline and then "update" it every time a LOAD is done

You literally did not address the arguments on it actually behaving as a higher temporal dimension like the Hyper Goner stuff, though.

I’m on board with seeing the total cosmology of the Tobyverse as a small megaverse consisting of (for now) 2 multiverses (UT and DT), but that doesn’t necessarily require a scalable or significant higher dimension for it to be possible.

No one said this.

But the current evidence seems equivalent to picking pieces from different plates and trying to glue them together to form a single composition.

Explain, then? Like you can't just say "doesn't look sufficient to me coz I say so" then not really go into details lol.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I would agree if there were any mention that the game worlds of Undertale and Deltarune come from or participate in some kind of branching, but that statement doesn’t exist.

They are literally AUs. They should not branch from one another.

The argument about SAVE doesn’t seem sufficient to me. There are several other ways to explain what happens, with the most normal being that SAVE is simply a way to store the data of the current timeline and then "update/actualize" it every time a LOAD is done, which aligns with the part of the blog that argues that in the Undertale world, game mechanics are part of the canon. I agree with that.

I don’t really get how this explains SAVE file counting time that is otherwise nonexistent. Also, it is tied to time stuff overall, so Frisk using it during the moment where time is currently destroyed wouldn’t make much sense.

 

[Gooldiddy]

I'm a bit curious why we assume Frisk outran the Hyper Goner instead of just surviving it.

Idk, maybe because they outran it?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Occam's Razor. You do not need information to be spoonfed, both games share a similat cosmological works and are even called "worlds" by Toby. I think it's simple enough to argue both being the same dimensionally.

Let’s avoid trying to use things at random that we don’t know how they work, please.

Occam’s Razor is not a way to establish that your interpretation is correct; it’s simply a logical method through which we typically prefer to go with explanations that have fewer elements, because complexity makes it statistically less likely that the explanation is correct. However, we are in a powerscaling wiki, where upgrades like these must be substantiated with sufficient evidence to be considered.

And at no point have I said that you necessarily need the author to tell you everything directly. What I’m conveying is that there are various ways to interpret this that don’t require the existence of any "higher temporal dimension", so I don’t see the reason to upgrade the verse based on an appeal to possibility that doesn’t even have solid evidence to begin with

That both are called “worlds” is completely irrelevant. You can have several "game worlds" that coexist without the need for any kind of "superior timeline" of the sort.

The burden of proof is on you, as you’re trying to assert that your interpretation is necessarily the most accurate. I’m questioning your assertion.

You literally did not address the arguments on it actually behaving as a higher temporal dimension like the Hyper Goner stuff, though.

The fact that Frisk can access their Save File despite Asriel deleting the timeline doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with a higher dimension. This is something I mentioned in my previous message.

The argument about SAVE doesn’t seem sufficient to me. There are several other ways to explain what happens, with the most normal being that SAVE is simply a way to store the data of the current timeline and then "update/actualize" it every time a LOAD is done, which aligns with the part of the blog that argues that in the Undertale world, game mechanics are part of the canon. I agree with that.

You’re using a vague correlation to establish a total equivalence, which is a composition fallacy.

No one said this.

????? You are literally considering UT and Deltarune as separate multiverses that reside in the same cosmological framework.

Explain, then? Like you can't just say "doesn't look sufficient to me coz I say so" then not really go into details lol.

I literally already did lmfao.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

They are literally AUs. They should not branch from one another.

Alright. I completely disagree with the Low 1-C then.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

CRT looks good

 

[StrymULTRA]

Let’s avoid trying to use things at random that we don’t know how they work, please.

Nah I'd fallacy.

And at no point have I said that you necessarily need the author to tell you everything directly. What I’m conveying is that there are various ways to interpret this that don’t require the existence of any "higher temporal dimension", so I don’t see the reason to upgrade the verse based on an appeal to possibility that doesn’t even have solid evidence to begin with

Again, you gotta point the contradictions or why it's not valid. You didn't really give a valid interpretation here.

The fact that Frisk can access their Save File despite Asriel deleting the timeline doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with a higher dimension. This is something I mentioned in my previous message.

You’re using a vague correlation to establish a total equivalence, which is a composition fallacy.

Actually no, it's something called understanding the narrative and connecting the dots. Your assumption is literally unsubstained, heck the idea of the SAVE File merely recording the progress is something that is refuted here.

(Also how can you record the time of a nonexistent timeline)

????? You are literally considering UT and Deltarune as separate multiverses that reside in the same cosmological framework.

Yeah but they're completely separated realities with no physical correlation with each other. Only reason why they're connected is the Player playing both they're outside both realities anyways so.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Nah I'd fallacy.

Again, you gotta point the contradictions or why it's not valid. You didn't really give a valid interpretation here.


Actually no, it's something called understanding the narrative and connecting the dots. Your assumption is literally unsubstained, heck the idea of the SAVE File merely recording the progress is something that is refuted here.

(Also how can you record the time of a nonexistent timeline)

Yeah but they're completely separated realities with no physical correlation with each other. Only reason why they're connected is the Player playing both they're outside both realities anyways so.

This doesn't respond actually anything I said so we can conclude here. I already established my reasons. The staff can vote whatever they want.