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Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

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ExcelsisBerny said:
Well, I can help with some updated descriptions for the profile. There is no need to delete the profile. You can apply changes through future revisions.
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To be honest, looking from discussions around power scaling communities, I feel like most of them more or less agree to at least 1-A if not T0. Have you asked OP about 1-C tier and what they think of it?
 
Weaver261 said:
To be honest, looking from discussions around power scaling communities, I feel like most of them more or less agree to at least 1-A if not T0. Have you asked OP about 1-C tier and what they think of it?
Click to expand...

I mean, there isn't anything 1-A as for now. Maybe there is extra information that could help with that tier, but as I explained above, the scans are Low 1-C/1-C at max considering the downgrade of the Honkai cosmology in general.
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
I mean, there isn't anything 1-A as for now. Maybe there is extra information that could help with that tier, but as I explained above, the scans are Low 1-C/1-C at max considering the downgrade of the Honkai cosmology in general.
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I am not tier 1 expert but her existence transcending space and time as a whole (by definition of space time) should grant her at least 1-A since she has qualitative superiority over space time as a definition.
 
Weaver261 said:
I am not tier 1 expert but her existence transcending space and time as a whole (by definition of space time) should grant her at least 1-A since she has qualitative superiority over space time as a definition.
Click to expand...

No. Read again what I wrote above. That's BDE type 1 in this context.

ExcelsisBerny said:
Well, it turns out that Nova’s revision regarding the Hoyoverse was accepted, which downgrades the entire Honkai cosmology to Low 1-C. I am not entirely sure whether that corresponds to 5D or 6D, but Nova will probably clarify that once he is online.

Because of that thread, the 1-A scaling for the Outer Gods is now debatable, since that tier was mainly derived from fully transcending the Imaginary Tree, which was previously Low 1-A.

Quoting the profile:



Now, having made it clear throughout the thread that the Taoist and Buddhist references do not establish a clear scale and only serve to emphasize how Yog is a transcendent entity relative to the human world (with different cultures interpreting her existence and the knowledge she grants in different ways, which is one of the reasons why the character is not Tier 0), the only statements that can actually help with scaling are those found in the 5th Kizuna about how Heaven functions, along with a few miscellaneous statements made by Yog herself.

To begin with, we have several statements saying that Heaven exists beyond space and time. In one mention it is said that time is “stopped,” but I do not think that should be taken literally, since the consistency with which it is stated that time simply does not exist there is overwhelming.

Unfortunately, we do not know how big this realm actually is, nor how it relates to the worlds themselves in scope, so due to that ambiguity it should be treated as a plane with Type 1 BDE.



An interesting aspect is that within this white world you can create universes (Imaginary Trees ???), through the power of “definition,” by establishing limits, which in this context refers to material limits such as space and time.



I previously thought about using this as evidence for some kind of R>F, but honestly it is not sufficient, and there is also no real evidence that the total composition of planes (magnitude equivalent to the sum of all tiers below 1-A) is being transcended in a way that renders them nonexistent/zero.

And, as I said at the beginning, the Imaginary Tree is now Low 1-C, so you cannot extrapolate a transcendence to a Low 1-A plane from that either.

So, putting all of this together, the conclusion is that Heaven scales to Low 1-C or 1-C (depending on whether the Tree is 5D or 6D), with Type 1 BDE.

That means Yog, in the only key her profile should have, would fall into that tier.
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Vietthai96 said:
Can Gods give definition to space and time?
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I mean, I am not really sure what you mean by “giving definition” in this context, but what the gods actually do is create worlds, space time continuums, from an eternal and atemporal white realm.

We have almost no concrete information about the White Void. 1-A is a tier that necessitate really good evidence.
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
No. Read again what I wrote above. That's BDE type 1 in this context.
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The whole point of her kizuna story 5 is about creating worlds through texts and words which is exactly R>F. If that's not 1-A, i don't know what is.
Many people through the ages have expressed their ideas through words, seeing them as tools, but they had not imagined that the real world is born from words, so just one word may contribute to the rise of a universe from the concept of chaos, and then fixate it, so it never perishes again.
Click to expand...
—The truly biggest common denominator is language, and words.
Language frames the world, words make the rules, and so space and time are framed beyond this.
Click to expand...
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
I mean, I am not really sure what you mean by “giving definition” in this context, but what the gods actually do is create worlds, space time continuums, from an eternal and atemporal white realm.

We have almost no concrete information about the White Void. 1-A is a tier that necessitate really good evidence.
Click to expand...
I mean, you guys have been saying Gods have power of definition or something?
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
R>F is 1-A only if you can demonstrate that the realm trascends our definition or material composition. Something impossible here.
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We should at least get Ultima input here since they are the one who said T0 is cut and dry in the first place. We also need Tier 1 Experts here since we are dealing with T0 profile. Also, the staff vote should be higher than average crt. That's all I can say
 
Vietthai96 said:
I mean, you guys have been saying Gods have power of definition or something?
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Not really. The only one with that power is Yog Sothoth. But by reaching to her realm, mortal can make use of her divine power of definition to create worlds that aren't constrained by space and time.
 
Weaver261 said:
But all I am doing here is suggesting. We can bring her back when we revamp the whole verse later with new GGZ characters from academy arc. (Spoiler - highschool girl > otto :3)
Click to expand...
Oh, so you already have a plan to do it, huh? In that case, I guess I don’t need to invest time digging up all the feats again to make their profile after all, hahaha.
(I was also planning to make profiles for other GGZ characters besides Yog, but probably not anytime soon)
I can’t wait
 
Laniaitte said:
Oh, so you already have a plan to do it, huh? In that case, I guess I don’t need to invest time digging up all the feats again to make their profile after all, hahaha.
(I was also planning to make profiles for other GGZ characters besides Yog, but probably not anytime soon)
I can’t wait
Click to expand...
I mean if you got valuable informations and scans, it's always welcomed since I am bad at profile creation xD Doesn't hurt to have more people helping out. No?
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
Yeah. The power of establishing boundaries and limits. That's how they create worlds.
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Hmm, you can actually argue Low 1-A to 1-A with these things

Weaver261 said:
Not really. The only one with that power is Yog Sothoth. But by reaching to her realm, mortal can make use of her divine power of definition to create worlds that aren't constrained by space and time.
Click to expand...
Sound like Low 1-A to 1-A stuff

Anyway with tier 0, Berny argument makes more sense to me, so just remove that stuff
 
Vietthai96 said:
Anyway with tier 0, Berny argument makes more sense to me, so just remove that stuff
Click to expand...
But still I suggest we wait Ultima's input since they are the one behind T0 big changes and yog sothoth T0 confirmation. If they are okay with downgrade, why not. We can beat each other over 1-A and 1-C after that
 
Vietthai96 said:
Hmm, you can actually argue Low 1-A to 1-A with these things


Sound like Low 1-A to 1-A stuff

Anyway with tier 0, Berny argument makes more sense to me, so just remove that stuff
Click to expand...

Can you ping some admins please? DDM completely disappeared, so I am not sure if he or she is going to clarify their position.

Technically, they said they were leaning toward agreeing with the downgrade, but some supporters started questioning the semantics of that message. So yeah.

I really doubt the current information is enough for Low 1-A, but I'm gonna let it pass because I want to conclude the main topic first. I can make a thread later for other things.
 
Vietthai96 said:
@Ultima_Reality come here Tiering System Supergenius
Click to expand...

Summary of why Loli Yog is not tier 0:

ExcelsisBerny said:
Anyway, for all staff members:

This link is the message summary of the discussion in the thread.

vsbattles.com

Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

Mind that they are replica of Cthulu mythos. Both Azathoth and Yog Sothoth are described pretty much the same in GGZ too with Yog Sothoth being the wisdom and the gate. Azathoth maintaining reality by sleeping and the reality being the thoughts of Azathoth and being the nuclear chaos. Azathoth...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

and this is a little bit of clarification regarding miscellaneous questions.

vsbattles.com

Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

Could you expand on your argument regarding Yog’s ‘true form’? Because as far as I know, Aforgomon is merely one of Yog’s avatars, according to this scan 尤格索托斯的阴暗面,名为“亚弗戈蒙”的化身 ,拥有打破时空规则的禁忌之力。 The dark side of Yog-Sothoth, the incarnation of "Aforgomon", has the forbidden power to break the...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

vsbattles.com

Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

Could you expand on your argument regarding Yog’s ‘true form’? Because as far as I know, Aforgomon is merely one of Yog’s avatars, according to this scan 尤格索托斯的阴暗面,名为“亚弗戈蒙”的化身 ,拥有打破时空规则的禁忌之力。 The dark side of Yog-Sothoth, the incarnation of "Aforgomon", has the forbidden power to break the...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

vsbattles.com

Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

Could you expand on your argument regarding Yog’s ‘true form’? Because as far as I know, Aforgomon is merely one of Yog’s avatars, according to this scan 尤格索托斯的阴暗面,名为“亚弗戈蒙”的化身 ,拥有打破时空规则的禁忌之力。 The dark side of Yog-Sothoth, the incarnation of "Aforgomon", has the forbidden power to break the...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

In summary, the final conclusion that the side supporting the thread is defending is:

1. The “true form” key for Yog should be removed, since that true form does not exist (explanation in the links above)

2. The 1-B key (the only one left on the profile after removing the other) should be upgraded to 1-A because it scales to Heaven, a plane that is ontologically fully transcendent to the Imaginary Tree, which is currently Low 1-A.

That's it.
Click to expand...
 
I'm still not convinced. But if most people agree with the downgrading based on the evidence presented, i think i'll accept it. I'm sincerely sorry.
 
Mr._East_Statement said:
Hello everyone, East here back with another attempt to downgrade another character and this CRT we are going to focus on Yog-Sothoth of Gun Girl Z… okay it sounds cringe alright. This is her profile and this is when first it was brought up, this is the CRT in which it was accepted.

The topic of today is… indeed, controversial, as we are going straight for a supposedly Tier-0 character downgrade.

So if you are knowledgeable about Tier-0 and have read the profile, you probably have understood the problem there, and maybe the CRT in which it was accepted didn't answer the questions. And that's why we are coming with this downgrade within this CRT.

It would be a short and straightforward CRT since the problems are clear and blatant.

Without much delay, let us start.
​



The Eternal Nameless Tao… merely a bubble of Yog-Sothoth?

So if you had read the profile itself, you see this as the justification for Tier-0 in the Attack Potency section.

Why it is the problem?

Just read this,

RAW:


TL:


Co-dependent property with the bubbles? At first one thought this was referring to a lesser property and going by the way of "negation of divine properties" explanation (Apophatic theology). But is this justification truly enough?

Through the CRT, it accepted “because Nameless Tao”, yet as we see here the “Eternal Nameless Tao/Dao” is not so eternal after all and is merely another of Yog-Sothoth's bubbles, despite it also being the essence of existence. It shows that trying to justify the state of Tier-0 for Yog-Sothoth via the Tao/Dao philosophy is nothing but Nominal and Association Fallacy as the “Tao” in the verse doesn't share the same properties as the one from Philosophy.

Tao is the one in Taoism that is the ineffable, indivisible and eternal Tao that grounds everything. GGZ Yog being beyond it, pretty much defeats Tao's Primacy.



Which Yog-Sothoth's bubble defeats this metaphysical ground (which also was not properly established within the verse from start). Yog-Sothoth, with its description, negates the divine properties of Tao itself in a flawed way.


​


Beyond Definition & Description: Is it enough?


To continue, the very next link is this, it is when the narrator speaks directly to us, the reader, and breaks the fourth wall actually, within the story of Praise My Lord.


When you read it, you see the line about Yog-Sothoth being beyond definition and description which confirms its ineffable essence, yet it also further confirms that the whole bubble description and the concept of Nameless Tao within was what it is, a description and a metaphor. So all that remains here is the fact that Yog-Sothoth is “beyond definition and description”, but is it enough for Tier-0? I do not think so, unless we give any character with any form of Apophatic Theology or Ineffable essence.



That can be said the only thing GGZ Yog-Sothoth has, and Transduality too due to transcending Yin and Yang and we know it exists in Babylon too due to Mother's description.
​



So you might wonder why we are not reaching out to anything new within CRT, and I agree with you. Because based on the profile and CRT, that's it. That was literally the entire Tier-0 justification for GGZ Yog-Sothoth, Ineffable essence, and of course “Tao” while as we see is merely a bubble of Yog-Sothoth and metamorphosis.

Generally, these are the whole argument.

So I propose this:

1-A: True Form (via TD3 and Primacy).
L1-A: Avatar (scaling to cosmology).

After Nova's downgrade thread: L1-C

Unless more context is presented, I see the arguments for Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth insufficient, and nothing but a very charitable scale to the highest possible interpretation based on a false equivalence and misconception about Tao inverse.​
Click to expand...
While i disagree with the downgrade of the verse i wholeheartedly agree with the loli yog downgrade weather rhe verse was low 1A or not. Agree
 
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