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Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

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Well, it turns out that Nova’s revision regarding the Hoyoverse was accepted, which downgrades the entire Honkai cosmology to Low 1-C. I am not entirely sure whether that corresponds to 5D or 6D, but Nova will probably clarify that once he is online.

Because of that thread, the 1-A scaling for the Outer Gods is now debatable, since that tier was mainly derived from fully transcending the Imaginary Tree, which was previously Low 1-A.

Quoting the profile:

"Transcends the universe/Imaginary Tree which represents Absolute "Infinity" by her virtue of transcending all things."
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Now, having made it clear throughout the thread that the Taoist and Buddhist references do not establish a clear scale and only serve to emphasize how Yog is a transcendent entity relative to the human world (with different cultures interpreting her existence and the knowledge she grants in different ways, which is one of the reasons why the character is not Tier 0), the only statements that can actually help with scaling are those found in the 5th Kizuna about how Heaven functions, along with a few miscellaneous statements made by Yog herself.

To begin with, we have several statements saying that Heaven exists beyond space and time. In one mention it is said that time is “stopped,” but I do not think that should be taken literally, since the consistency with which it is stated that time simply does not exist there is overwhelming.

Unfortunately, we do not know how big this realm actually is, nor how it relates to the worlds themselves in scope, so due to that ambiguity it should be treated as a plane with Type 1 BDE.

Type 1: Characters who lack spatiotemporal features entirely, while not actually being superior to them in nature. They are simply ontologically different from any dimensional construct, but can ultimately still be comparable to dimension-bound entities in terms of raw power.
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An interesting aspect is that within this white world you can create universes (Imaginary Trees ???), through the power of “definition,” by establishing limits, which in this context refers to material limits such as space and time.

What is this place, you ask?

Oh... how should I put it, this is the kingdom of heaven, the sea of stars, the immortal world, the abode outside of time and space.

It doesn't matter what it's called, because here you have access to everything, through the great divine power.

Then let me demonstrate for you how divine power works.

Now that you're here, tell me, what is the greatest common denominator in the four previous stories, whether it's the World Honored One, the Old Man, the King, the Speaker, about them?

Bubbles? No, no, that's just a representation, a symbolic device, like the sun god riding out in a golden carriage, it doesn't have to be a golden carriage, except that's what the gods like.

-The real greatest common denominator is language, and words.

Language frames the world, words make the rules, and so space and time are framed outside of that.

You, for example, are looking at this line of text, and as I am, I am looking at you through this line of text.

This is how divine power works. Humans grow old, their skin turns gray, but how can the world within the words? This is the divine power of God, "description", or "definition". The only way to define the boundaries is to transcend them, and because we are free from everything, we can create everything, and so everything is born in our hands.

Many people through the ages have expressed their ideas through words, seeing them as tools, but they have not imagined that the real world is born in words all the time, so that just one word may contribute to the rise of a universe from the idea of chaos, and then fixed, never to perish again.

This is the divine power itself that God has given us, but unfortunately the majority of people can only use it in an ignorant way, even ignoring its spirituality.
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I previously thought about using this as evidence for some kind of R>F, but honestly it is not sufficient, and there is also no real evidence that the total composition of planes (magnitude equivalent to the sum of all tiers below 1-A) is being transcended in a way that renders them nonexistent/zero.

And, as I said at the beginning, the Imaginary Tree is now Low 1-C, so you cannot extrapolate a transcendence to a Low 1-A plane from that either.

So, putting all of this together, the conclusion is that Heaven scales to Low 1-C or 1-C (depending on whether the Tree is 5D or 6D), with Type 1 BDE.

That means Yog, in the only key her profile should have, would fall into that tier.
 
Is not that yog has reached transcendent R>F, so there is a qualitative superiority between yog and basic reality, regardless of IT having become l1c, yog should still be able to maintain its tier 1A.

1-A: Outerverse level​

Characters or objects residing in higher states of existence surpassing material composition as a whole, and who are therefore completely unreachable and inaccessible to any and all extensions of the aforementioned structures. Their superiority over such realms, as such, is purely "qualitative"; based entirely on the ontological quality and nature of their existence, rather than any quantitative or numerical principle.

A way to explain their superiority over "physical composition" would be to bring attention to the fact that all of the previous tiers can be expressed as the union of constructs of lower tiers. For example, a 4-dimensional spacetime continuum is at most Low 2-C. However, an inaccessible cardinal's worth of such spacetimes is well into High 1-B+. In spite of the extremely large gap in size between the individuals comprising this totality and the totality itself, the latter is simply the sum of all the former, and as such both ultimately reside in the same state of existence, and have continuity of composition within that state.
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So what I mean is, if a character already has a qualitative superiority over the l2c space-time alone, it should already meet the 1A level, because existence levels below 1A will be considered lower overall.
or example, if a character were to view an entire space-time continuum as fiction, they would be superior to such an extent that it would be viewed not as a small portion or constituent of their reality, but as trivialized into nonexistence by comparison, such that their higher world is wholly irreducible to anything pertaining to the lower world. This complete superceding of the lower world's nature lands all such characters at 1-A.
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Well… the downfall is… a funny plot twist, I guess.

W Nova. The downgrade from L1-A to L1-C is Yogiri level of nuking.
 
Mr._East_Statement said:
Well… the downfall is… a funny plot twist, I guess.

W Nova. The downgrade from L1-A to L1-C is Yogiri level of nuking.
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not at all, yogiri went from 1A to multi solar system with ALL of his hax removed, no one will ever be on yogiri lvls

edit: his still getting debunked to this day its never been so over
 
Maniaunavailable said:
not at all, yogiri went from 1A to multi solar system with ALL of his hax removed, no one will ever be on yogiri lvls

edit: his still getting debunked to this day its never been so over
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Ngl I was there supporting it, just that I didn't do the same when AWLBA almost got the same treatment (AWLBA keeps its 1-A lol). I might upgrade Yogiri though.. The voices in my head are telling me to do so
 
Voidnether said:
Ngl I was there supporting it, just that I didn't do the same when AWLBA almost got the same treatment (AWLBA keeps its 1-A lol). I might upgrade Yogiri though.. The voices in my head are telling me to do so
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its kinda imposible to upgrade yogiri rn, the concept infinity dosnt exist on the verse, it cant be beyond like low 2c
 
Voidnether said:
Not the tiering, I mean like Acausality (Type 5) and so on.. No one would bother with the tiering rn nowadays lol
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that got nuked day 1, the only statment about acasuality was a misstranslation and only stated by UEG (who streets say its not relaibale whatsoever). Also as we speak iirc he got aca 3 removed as well
 
As the creator of the profile, I suggest to delete to the profile as a whole. We don't have GGZ Profile except her anyway lol
 
Maniaunavailable said:
that got nuked day 1, the only statment about acasuality was a misstranslation and only stated by UEG (who streets say its not relaibale whatsoever). Also as we speak iirc he got aca 3 removed as well
Click to expand...
I'm talking about The End here who defines the world by perceiving them (this applies to all the metaphysical aspects that exist on the verse), legit from the evidence I've seen even the ones from SweetDao itself (apparently) had statements about The End transcending cause & effect, it's still plausible when I make the thread with all the feats pertaining to it (20+ scans lol) but yeah the argument is going to be very different, I might do it someday but it's more of like "whenever I feel like it", it's worth arguing from my perspective and that's all what matters if a random chinaman verse gets High 1-A+, then another through transcending the duality of reality and fiction and many more that well, it is what it is
 
Voidnether said:
I'm talking about The End here who defines the world by perceiving them (this applies to all the metaphysical aspects that exist on the verse), legit from the evidence I've seen even the ones from SweetDao itself (apparently) had statements about The End transcending cause & effect, it's still plausible when I make the thread with all the feats pertaining to it (20+ scans lol) but yeah the argument is going to be very different, I might do it someday but it's more of like "whenever I feel like it", it's worth arguing from my perspective and that's all what matters if a random chinaman verse gets High 1-A+, then another through transcending the duality of reality and fiction and many more that well, it is what it is
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Good luck arguing with SweetDao 😞🤙
 
Voidnether said:
I'm talking about The End here who defines the world by perceiving them (this applies to all the metaphysical aspects that exist on the verse), legit from the evidence I've seen even the ones from SweetDao itself (apparently) had statements about The End transcending cause & effect, it's still plausible when I make the thread with all the feats pertaining to it (20+ scans lol) but yeah the argument is going to be very different, I might do it someday but it's more of like "whenever I feel like it", it's worth arguing from my perspective and that's all what matters if a random chinaman verse gets High 1-A+, then another through transcending the duality of reality and fiction and many more that well, it is what it is
Click to expand...
the end is what got it to multi solar system bro, his base form is way lower, metaphisics was also debunked. Also gl with sweerdao he has all of the translations and scans from idk where, his literally reverse flash lvls of commiment
 
Furina003 said:
Is not that yog has reached transcendent R>F, so there is a qualitative superiority between yog and basic reality, regardless of IT having become l1c, yog should still be able to maintain its tier 1A.

So what I mean is, if a character already has a qualitative superiority over the l2c space-time alone, it should already meet the 1A level, because existence levels below 1A will be considered lower overall.
Click to expand...
I just want the staff to consider this, placing yog in l1c or 1c is a low decision in my opinion, yog should still be able to maintain 1A with qualitative superiority to their basic reality, even though IT has been downgraded to l1c
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
There is no qualitative superiority.
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Is that true? I think Yog has qualitative superiority so she was once in tier 0 and was suggested to be in tier 1A, if there is no such thing, it is really confusing how she could have previously reached tier 0 and 1A, if there is no such thing I will not comment anymore, maybe placing her to IT is the best
 
Furina003 said:
Is that true? I think Yog has qualitative superiority so she was once in tier 0 and was suggested to be in tier 1A, if there is no such thing, it is really confusing how she could have previously reached tier 0 and 1A, if there is no such thing I will not comment anymore, maybe placing her to IT is the best
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Placing her to IT wouldn't work since she's superior
 
Weaver261 said:
As the creator of the profile, I suggest to delete to the profile as a whole. We don't have GGZ Profile except her anyway lol
Click to expand...
If you’ve decided not to argue against the nonsense they just brought up, then I’ll also stop arguing about all the nonsense they’ve been claiming about GGZ as well.
So when do we plan to delete the profile?
 
We need to delete this from Yog's profile
Omnipotence, Omniscience & Omnipresence (Specific applications include, other than the powers displayed as an Avatar, such as:)
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Laniaitte said:
If you’ve decided not to argue against the nonsense they just brought up, then I’ll also stop arguing about all the nonsense they’ve been claiming about GGZ as well.
So when do we plan to delete the profile?
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I am just suggesting. If staffs think otherwise, we can handle it accordingly. But personally, I think her profile should be gone since she basically serve no purpose here.
ExcelsisBerny said:
You are just proposing that because the character is getting downgraded. That is not how this works.
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Not really. When I made Yog's profile, we had a plan to make a comp honkai verse page which includes GGZ too. I still have GGZ Godhead Tier 1 sandbox for other profiles. But I got busy and couldn't get around that at all. GGZ Yog having 1-C tier with these justifications just sounds more ridiculous than Tier 0 imo.

But all I am doing here is suggesting. We can bring her back when we revamp the whole verse later with new GGZ characters from academy arc. (Spoiler - highschool girl > otto :3)
 
Weaver261 said:
But all I am doing here is suggesting. We can bring her back when we revamp the whole verse later with new GGZ characters from academy arc. (Spoiler - highschool girl > otto :3)
Click to expand...

Well, I can help with some updated descriptions for the profile. There is no need to delete the profile. You can apply changes through future revisions.

Anyway, I would not mind having the schoolgirls above everything else, but you would need to explain the GGZ cosmology in its entirety first.

Stuff like wonderland, dreamlands, the actual location of Babylon etc.
 
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