Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

[ExcelsisBerny]

Could you expand on your argument regarding Yog’s ‘true form’?
Because as far as I know, Aforgomon is merely one of Yog’s avatars, according to this scan
尤格索托斯的阴暗面,名为“亚弗戈蒙”的化身 ,拥有打破时空规则的禁忌之力。

The dark side of Yog-Sothoth, the incarnation of "Aforgomon", has the forbidden power to break the rules of time and space.

There is no “true form” of Yog Sothoth understood as a transcendent form that is superior to all the others. It is never stated anywhere.

Yog is an entity with different manifestations, three in particular: Aforgomon, the white abyss, and another one that, if I remember correctly, does not even have a name, the basic one.

At first people started thinking Yog had a true form because of a mention in Aforgomon’s profile, but that mention is out of context, as I already explained several messages ago.

This is completely taken out of context. The statement is not talking about a “true form” in the sense of something transcendent above everything. It is simply referring to how Yog, in her Aforgomon form, kills everyone who reaches her domain so quickly that nobody is able to actually see her Aforgomon form as such, which is easy to understand if you take the context of the description into account.

It is the equivalent of saying that character X eradicates all visitors to their plane so fast that nobody can make out their form. That is all.

And regarding the argument involving Yog and Nyarlathotep—what does that have to do with downgrading Yog to Level 0?
Just because she talks to Yog without fear doesn’t prove anything. Even ordinary humans don’t show fear either, lol
Scan
干嘛用这种垂涎欲滴的眼神盯着我——莫非是对我产生食欲了, 还是说,是另一种“食欲”呢?

That is problematic because Yog resides in the White Void, which, if we take the Sutras into account, should be akin to Nirvana or the Tao. But it clearly is not, because the self does not dissolve in that place and multiple deities can exist there simultaneously without losing their own identity, which is precisely why I mentioned that the fact Nyarlathotep can exist in the White Void is a direct problem for Tier 0.

The White Void is simply a plane that transcends space and time, where deities create worlds through the power of definition. I have no issue scaling that above the Aeons and other characters, so the maximum reasonable scale would be baseline 1-A. Even that is debatable, but that would be a topic for another thread, if one ever gets made.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

The best way is to not downgrade yog sothoth, but to remove the second key to make it more sense

I agree with the proposal of deleting her second key.

 

[SweetDao]

That is problematic because Yog resides in the White Void, which, if we take the Sutras into account, should be akin to Nirvana or the Tao. But it clearly is not, because the self does not dissolve in that place and multiple deities can exist there simultaneously without losing their own identity, which is precisely why I mentioned that the fact Nyarlathotep can exist in the White Void is a direct problem for Tier 0.

The White Void is simply a plane that transcends space and time, where deities create worlds through the power of definition. I have no issue scaling that above the Aeons and other characters, so the maximum reasonable scale would be baseline 1-A. Even that is debatable, but that would be a topic for another thread, if one ever gets made.

By that logic, wouldn't the fact a "reader" reaches that place a problem in the first place? or is it fine because "lol he got permission"?

Hello.

Congratulations on arriving here.

What is this place, you ask?

Oh... how should I put it, this is the kingdom of heaven, the sea of stars, the immortal world, the abode outside of time and space.

It doesn't matter what it's called, because here you have access to everything, through the great divine power.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

By that logic, wouldn't the fact a "reader" reaches that place a problem in the first place? or is it fine because "lol he got permission"?

A problem for the Tier 0? Absolutely. That is not a Tier 0 realm at all.

For 1-A, I do not think so, since Yog is the one who allows humans to reach her and obtain knowledge.

1-A should be fine (for now).

 

[SweetDao]

A problem for the Tier 0? Absolutely. That is not a Tier 0 realm at all.

Oh yeah, I meant the realm, the rest wasn't in question.

 

[Breakdown]

By that logic, wouldn't the fact a "reader" reaches that place a problem in the first place? or is it fine because "lol he got permission"?

A problem for the Tier 0? Absolutely. That is not a Tier 0 realm at all.

For 1-A, I do not think so, since Yog is the one who allows humans to reach her and obtain knowledge.

1-A should be fine (for now).

Yog is quite literally breaking the fourth wall here, not addressing in universe characters. That doesn’t disqualify Tier 0.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Doesn't the entire Babylon Academy and its godhead themselves only exist within Schicksal archives lol.

 

[Ascka23]

Does it translate as “avatar of Aforgomon” or “avatar Aforgomon”

The correct translation should be "avatar named Aforogomon", so Aforogomon is indeed just an avatar.

 

[henryzx900ruly]

the big henryzx900ruly thinks that the theological notation within yogs scaling is accurate and any disagreements handled or explained.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

The correct translation should be "avatar named Aforogomon", so Aforogomon is indeed just an avatar.

No problem with that. It doesn't change anything. We agree on Aforgomon being one of the 3 manifestations of Yog.

There is no “true form” of Yog Sothoth understood as a transcendent form that is superior to all the others. It is never stated anywhere.

Yog is an entity with different manifestations, three in particular: Aforgomon, the white abyss, and another one that, if I remember correctly, does not even have a name, the basic one.

 

[KingOfDarknessBelow]

No problem with that. It doesn't change anything. We agree on Aforgomon being one of the 3 manifestations of Yog.

I mean avatar would imply a true form or body

 

[Weaver261]

Doesn't the entire Babylon Academy and its godhead themselves only exist within Schicksal archives lol.

It's just weapon artifacts. Babylon exists in wonderland.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I mean avatar would imply a true form or body

I think this should be obvious, but powerscaling brainrot is extremely strong.

A “true form” does not need to be transcendent over the other forms. You can have a character who has a real form that they usually hide behind other appearances.

Yog Sothoth’s “real” form is the primary one we see when her profile is first unlocked, with Aforgomon simply being a derivative of that real form (her dark side).

The dark side of Yog-Sothoth, an incarnation known as 'Aforgomon,' wields the forbidden power to shatter the laws of time and space.

 

[henryzx900ruly]

I mean avatar would imply a true form or body

Yes that is true, I think that the dao itself is the tier 0 in question, the OP's argument relies on the tao just being a simply bubble or fragment of yog. I have scans somewhere that say otherwise.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Yes that is true, I think that the dao itself is the tier 0 in question, the OP's argument relies on the tao just being a simply bubble or fragment of yog. I have scans somewhere that say otherwise.

We already went over this on the thread. Read the entire discussion if you are gonna argue against the thread instead of bringing up points already addressed. Thank you.

 

[Nissa_Ushiromiya]

I'm honestly shocked that you want to bring down Yog-Sothoth and even demand evidence to prove her Tier 0. She's a transcendent being an above all else, and the little evidence we have is more than enough to grant her Tier 0. What more do you want ? An omnipotent being is inherently ineffable and meaningless. It's impossible to explain looking at other Tier 0 on this Wiki they have tiny scales and even less evidence, and they still Scale to Tier 0. (Example: Maleldil, TWL, etc.) Trying to explain a Tier 0 is impossible because it's beyond comprehension, and i repeat, the little evidence we have about Yog is more than enough to grant her Tier 0. I honestly don't understand all this pointless hatred towards her.

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

I mean avatar would imply a true form or body

That would max makes us to make a different key for each, and to imply a true form necessarily means Tier-0 falls under False Dichotomy (aside from many issues of such a claim), specially after everything that been said within 5 pages.

Yes that is true, I think that the dao itself is the tier 0 in question, the OP's argument relies on the tao just being a simply bubble or fragment of yog. I have scans somewhere that say otherwise.

Sigh here, a summarization, you can read that and then argue.

Please everyone, do not drill the thread, the fifth page was about to be the final.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I'm honestly shocked that you want to bring down Yog-Sothoth and even demand evidence to prove her Tier 0. She's a transcendent being an above all else, and the little evidence we have is more than enough to grant her Tier 0. What more do you want ? An omnipotent being is inherently ineffable and meaningless. It's impossible to explain looking at other Tier 0 on this Wiki they have tiny scales and even less evidence, and they still Scale to Tier 0. (Example: Maleldil, TWL, etc.) Trying to explain a Tier 0 is impossible because it's beyond comprehension, and i repeat, the little evidence we have about Yog is more than enough to grant her Tier 0. I honestly don't understand all this pointless hatred towards her.

If after reading the entire thread your conclusion is that I hate the verse, then I honestly do not know what to tell you. I guess you can keep living in that delusion.

 

[Nissa_Ushiromiya]

If after reading the entire thread your conclusion is that I hate the verse, then I honestly do not know what to tell you. I guess you can keep living in that delusion.

But i wasn't talking about you, i was speaking in general.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I'm honestly shocked that you want to bring down Yog-Sothoth and even demand evidence to prove her Tier 0. She's a transcendent being an above all else, and the little evidence we have is more than enough to grant her Tier 0. What more do you want ? An omnipotent being is inherently ineffable and meaningless. It's impossible to explain looking at other Tier 0 on this Wiki they have tiny scales and even less evidence, and they still Scale to Tier 0. (Example: Maleldil, TWL, etc.) Trying to explain a Tier 0 is impossible because it's beyond comprehension, and i repeat, the little evidence we have about Yog is more than enough to grant her Tier 0. I honestly don't understand all this pointless hatred towards her.

"tiny scales and less evidence"

maleldil
The WHITE LIGHT

 

[KingOfDarknessBelow]

Btw have we had any mod check this, BC I feel like it's just going in loops now

 

[Maniaunavailable]

Btw have we had any mod check this, BC I feel like it's just going in loops now

just one, he didnt reply tho

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

Btw have we had any mod check this, BC I feel like it's just going in loops now

In short: Vietthai96 (Thread Moderator) and DarkDragonMedeus (Administrator), they need to clarify their stance (which based on the last comments DDM said he's leaning toward agreement and Veit already going for PP Type 1 proposal), and one more mod is needed.

Please let this be the final comment and we don't reach a seventh page, this sixth page is irrelevant already

 

[Laniaitte]

There is no “true form” of Yog Sothoth understood as a transcendent form that is superior to all the others. It is never stated anywhere.

So are you telling me that even though Aforgomon is clearly identified as an avatar of Yog, she is still being interpreted as being as strong as Yog himself, just because there is no explicit statement saying that the true body is stronger?
What kind of insane logic is this?
We all know, don’t we, that a true body should naturally be superior to an avatar, unless you have scans that actually support this claim, instead of relying on random interpretations

At first people started thinking Yog had a true form because of a mention in Aforgomon’s profile, but that mention is out of context, as I already explained several messages ago.

It seems that someone didn’t read my argument at all, and on top of that, they’re also drawing incorrect interpretations from a faulty translation

That is problematic because Yog resides in the White Void, which, if we take the Sutras into account, should be akin to Nirvana or the Tao. But it clearly is not, because the self does not dissolve in that place and multiple deities can exist there simultaneously without losing their own identity, which is precisely why I mentioned that the fact Nyarlathotep can exist in the White Void is a direct problem for Tier 0.

Do you even realize that the White Abyss of Yog-Sothoth is not the place where her true body exists, and that Yog-Sothoth–White Abyss and Yog-Sothoth are separate entities?

Why do I feel like I’m arguing with someone who knows nothing about this topic at all, and on top of that, keeps misinterpreting everything?

 

[Laniaitte]

Doesn't the entire Babylon Academy and its godhead themselves only exist within Schicksal archives lol.

That information was deleted since the early patches and should not be used as a reference at all

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

From page 5 onwards reminded me of why Gari once message me for why there can’t be a tier 0 loli lol

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

So are you telling me that even though Aforgomon is clearly identified as an avatar of Yog, she is still being interpreted as being as strong as Yog himself, just because there is no explicit statement saying that the true body is stronger?
What kind of insane logic is this?
We all know, don’t we, that a true body should naturally be superior to an avatar, unless you have scans that actually support this claim, instead of relying on random interpretations

I already addressed this.

I think this should be obvious, but powerscaling brainrot is extremely strong.

A “true form” does not need to be transcendent over the other forms. You can have a character who has a real form that they usually hide behind other appearances.

Yog Sothoth’s “real” form is the primary one we see when her profile is first unlocked, with Aforgomon simply being a derivative of that real form (her dark side).

I couldn't care less if the Aforgomon manifestation is weaker than her main body or not, because both entities resides in the same exact existential level. There isn't a Yog Sothoth form transcendental to the others.

It seems that someone didn’t read my argument at all, and on top of that, they’re also drawing incorrect interpretations from a faulty translation

I read your argument and it does not address anything I have said at all.

Prove that the translation I used is wrong instead of wasting my time with baseless assertions.

Do you even realize that the White Abyss of Yog-Sothoth is not the place where her true body exists, and that Yog-Sothoth–White Abyss and Yog-Sothoth are separate entities?

Heaven is the place where Yog Sothoth’s main body resides, explicitly stated by Yog herself, unlike your headcanon about a Tier 0 “true form".

A deity dwelling beyond the universe’s space-time, possessing boundless wisdom—and, because of it, experiencing an infinite loneliness. Here, you can attain everything you desire, although in doing so… you may perhaps lose your sense of purpose.

The deity Yog Sothoth exists beyond space and time, in a place where you can obtain anything you desire, which is Heaven, as explicitly mentioned in Kizuna 5 and shown in the background of her illustration.

This is the world on the other side of the door. Here, time and space have come to a standstill, and only wisdom remains.

Just like Yog Sothoth in the original myth, she is the gate, and her true being resides beyond the gate. And what lies beyond the gate? Heaven, a place that, once again, is described as lacking space and time. The description is the same.

This completely disproves the existence of a separate “true form” of Yog and shows that the entity’s true body simply resides in that plane, a plane that can also be reached by other deities and by humans whom Yog allows to ascend.

Hello.

Congratulations on arriving here.

What is this place, you ask?

Oh... how should I put it, this is the kingdom of heaven, the sea of stars, the immortal world, the abode outside of time and space.

It doesn't matter what it's called, because here you have access to everything, through the great divine power.

Then let me demonstrate for you how divine power works.

This is how divine power works. Humans grow old, their skin turns gray, but how can the world within the words? This is the divine power of God, "description", or "definition". The only way to define the boundaries is to transcend them, and because we are free from everything, we can create everything, and so everything is born in our hands.

Many people through the ages have expressed their ideas through words, seeing them as tools, but they have not imagined that the real world is born in words all the time, so that just one word may contribute to the rise of a universe from the idea of chaos, and then fixed, never to perish again.

-This is the divine power itself that God has given us, but unfortunately the majority of people can only use it in an ignorant way, even ignoring its spirituality.

Now, use it and create your world, unconstrained by time and space, eternally independent.

By the way, if you have time, praise my Lord, Yog-Sothoth.

To use Yog Sothoth’s divine power, you need to access that white world, because the deity resides precisely in that white world. It is a world where material beings are freed and become relatively omnipotent, unbound by space and time, and capable of creating worlds through the power of definition.

So yes, the “Nirvana” and the “Tao” are the White Void. And there is nothing above the White Void.

All of this is 1-A being EXTREMELY generous.

Why do I feel like I’m arguing with someone who knows nothing about this topic at all, and on top of that, keeps misinterpreting everything?

Womp womp

 

[Laniaitte]

I already addressed this.

I don’t see any scans that further explain this after my argument at all

I couldn't care less if the Aforgomon manifestation is weaker than her main body or not, because both entities resides in the same exact existential level. There isn't a Yog Sothoth form transcendental to the others.

Please show scans that explicitly state that Aforgomon and Yog truly exist on the same level of existence. I don’t want to see your interpretations alone without any supporting evidence

I read your argument and it does not address anything I have said at all.

Prove that the translation I used is wrong instead of wasting my time with baseless assertions.

If you’re still using the English text from Miraheze, then that’s already incorrect—and this issue has been explained before.

Heaven is the place where Yog Sothoth’s main body resides, explicitly stated by Yog herself, unlike your headcanon about a Tier 0 “true form".

The deity Yog Sothoth exists beyond space and time, in a place where you can obtain anything you desire, which is Heaven, as explicitly mentioned in Kizuna 5 and shown in the background of her illustration.

Just like Yog Sothoth in the original myth, she is the gate, and her true being resides beyond the gate. And what lies beyond the gate? Heaven, a place that, once again, is described as lacking space and time. The description is the same.

This completely disproves the existence of a separate “true form” of Yog and shows that the entity’s true body simply resides in that plane, a plane that can also be reached by other deities and by humans whom Yog allows to ascend.

To use Yog Sothoth’s divine power, you need to access that white world, because the deity resides precisely in that white world. It is a world where material beings are freed and become relatively omnipotent, unbound by space and time, and capable of creating worlds through the power of definition.

Wasn’t that dimension created by that follower himself? And wasn’t the reason he invited those people in to speak there to demonstrate the authority he received from Yog, implying that you yourself could do the same if you were granted Yog’s power?

Scan: the statement saying that he can create a dimension not bound by time and space
今こそそれを活用し、世界を造り、時空に縛られない永遠の独立した世界を造るのだ。
それと同時に、もし時間があれば我らが神―――ヨグ・ ソトースをほめたたえるのだ。

Scan: the statement comparing that he can obtain anything he wants simply by using Yog’s power
まあ、ここがどういう名称なのかは関係ない。いずれにしてもここでおまえは偉大なる神の力によって欲しいものをすべて手に入れられるのだから。

And what scans are there that state other beings can access Yog’s true body or its location? Because as we all know, Aforgomon’s domain and the White Abyss are completely different places from the location of Yog’s true body

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Wasn’t that dimension created by that follower himself?

We can stop the discussion here. You are effectively making me lose my time.

Let's wait for the staff members.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

It's just weapon artifacts. Babylon exists in wonderland.

You mean the Servant world???

 

[Laniaitte]

We can stop the discussion here. You are effectively making me lose my time.

Let's wait for the staff members.

Please read my argument all the way through
But if you still don’t understand, I’ll explain it in a simple way myself.
The follower invited the speakers into his own dimension, which he created using Yog’s power. He explained and compared things by saying that the speakers could obtain anything they wanted simply by using Yog’s power, and he told them to praise and worship Yog

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Anyway, for all staff members:

This link is the message summary of the discussion in the thread.

Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

Mind that they are replica of Cthulu mythos. Both Azathoth and Yog Sothoth are described pretty much the same in GGZ too with Yog Sothoth being the wisdom and the gate. Azathoth maintaining reality by sleeping and the reality being the thoughts of Azathoth and being the nuclear chaos. Azathoth...

vsbattles.com

and this is a little bit of clarification regarding miscellaneous questions.

Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

Could you expand on your argument regarding Yog’s ‘true form’? Because as far as I know, Aforgomon is merely one of Yog’s avatars, according to this scan 尤格索托斯的阴暗面,名为“亚弗戈蒙”的化身 ,拥有打破时空规则的禁忌之力。 The dark side of Yog-Sothoth, the incarnation of "Aforgomon", has the forbidden power to break the...

vsbattles.com

Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

Could you expand on your argument regarding Yog’s ‘true form’? Because as far as I know, Aforgomon is merely one of Yog’s avatars, according to this scan 尤格索托斯的阴暗面,名为“亚弗戈蒙”的化身 ,拥有打破时空规则的禁忌之力。 The dark side of Yog-Sothoth, the incarnation of "Aforgomon", has the forbidden power to break the...

vsbattles.com

Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

Could you expand on your argument regarding Yog’s ‘true form’? Because as far as I know, Aforgomon is merely one of Yog’s avatars, according to this scan 尤格索托斯的阴暗面,名为“亚弗戈蒙”的化身 ,拥有打破时空规则的禁忌之力。 The dark side of Yog-Sothoth, the incarnation of "Aforgomon", has the forbidden power to break the...

vsbattles.com

In summary, the final conclusion that the side supporting the thread is defending is:

1. The “true form” key for Yog should be removed, since that true form does not exist (explanation in the links above)

2. The 1-B key (the only one left on the profile after removing the other) should be upgraded to 1-A because it scales to Heaven, a plane that is ontologically fully transcendent to the Imaginary Tree, which is currently Low 1-A.

That's it.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I'm leaning towards agreeing with the downgrade for now.

No, i just based on current standard

The discussion is already concluded, so you can read the messages above and state your vote.

 

[Vietthai96]

The discussion is already concluded, so you can read the messages above and state your vote.

So where is the opposition's summary?

 

[Laniaitte]

It seems that some people aren’t paying any attention to my argument and are ignoring important things—such as the scans I’m asking for—while trying to end this thread as quickly as possible even though many points are still unclear
If you’re going to rely on interpretations without any scan-based evidence, then please just end this thread

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

So where is the opposition's summary?

Weaver told us that he already left the information regarding his position earlier, so I guess they just did not bother. Although the summary East made already contains the flow of responses from both sides in condensed form, so you can read that and reach your own conclusion.

 

[Voidnether]

Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

You're misunderstanding. It's not tier 0 because "lol taoism", so diverging a bit from taoism doesn't mean tier 0 is suddenly invalid. Also lmao you're claiming something not in line with taoism while the wikipedia thing you sent literally says the same thing at the end. "Lol Taoism". That got...

vsbattles.com

Don't forget this one

 

[Robo432343]

It seems that some people aren’t paying any attention to my argument and are ignoring important things—such as the scans I’m asking for—while trying to end this thread as quickly as possible even though many points are still unclear
If you’re going to rely on interpretations without any scan-based evidence, then please just end this thread

why are you asking for scans?? you're the one who should be providing scans because you agree with tier 0. It's on you to provide evidence, not the other side

 

[Weaver261]

My summary

Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

They should be stronger than all gods, because they originate from a higher level of reality (We can even speculate that the form we see at the school is merely an avatar that has descended, since Nyarlathotep once stated that the form we see is not her true body) I do not care about your...

vsbattles.com

Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

They should be stronger than all gods, because they originate from a higher level of reality (We can even speculate that the form we see at the school is merely an avatar that has descended, since Nyarlathotep once stated that the form we see is not her true body) I do not care about your...

vsbattles.com

Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

They should be stronger than all gods, because they originate from a higher level of reality (We can even speculate that the form we see at the school is merely an avatar that has descended, since Nyarlathotep once stated that the form we see is not her true body) I do not care about your...

vsbattles.com

 

[Laniaitte]

why are you asking for scans?? you're the one who should be providing scans because you agree with tier 0. It's on you to provide evidence, not the other side

Because many of his explanations are not based on scan evidence but are just his own interpretations, and when I ask for scans, he ignores my questions completely