BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

[Apotheosis69]

Anyone who can rival or is outrightly superior to the power of 100% cien's gran rey cero or anyone who is completely stronger than the three strongest arrancar saga Espadas.

Interesting

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Who scales to the Low 5-B calc again?

I believe SAFWY's BBS Scans are valid on this wiki. Therefore, Mayuri's statement that Byakuya's Senbonzakura is equivalent to 100 Picarro's destructive power can be used. Since there isn't much difference between SAFWY and the Arrancar saga, I think everyone from Zommari onwards can upscale it. Because Ukitake considers even 4 months of training insufficient for getting stronger, and Byakuya's real major strength gain came from Royal Guard training.

 

[Specterxxxx]

I believe SAFWY's BBS Scans are valid on this wiki. Therefore, Mayuri's statement that Byakuya's Senbonzakura is equivalent to 100 Picarro's destructive power can be used. Since there isn't much difference between SAFWY and the Arrancar saga

This is a supporting argument yes.

, I think everyone from Zommari onwards can upscale it. Because Ukitake considers even 4 months of training insufficient for getting stronger, and Byakuya's real major strength gain came from Royal Guard training.

This is false via so many reasons; the piccaro were espada level even at the time of the arrancar arc but were demoted because of their recklessness and inability to be controlled by aizen and consequently sealed by the sand hollow.

And almost 2 years have passed between safwy and arrancar arc, its closer to the time of the lost agent arc than the arrancar arc saga.

Only 100% Cien, Starkk wolves, barragan's respira and full power yammy are the only hollows who scale aside the picarro themselves.

 

[Apotheosis69]

Not even Lanza del Relampago? F

Also Respira is just Age/Time hax, not AP

 

[Infinite9Luck]

I believe SAFWY's BBS Scans are valid on this wiki. Therefore, Mayuri's statement that Byakuya's Senbonzakura is equivalent to 100 Picarro's destructive power can be used. Since there isn't much difference between SAFWY and the Arrancar saga, I think everyone from Zommari onwards can upscale it. Because Ukitake considers even 4 months of training insufficient for getting stronger, and Byakuya's real major strength gain came from Royal Guard training.

Cien would one shot Zommari with just one tentacle, and it's not even an hyperbole.

 

[AppleLord]

Hell Arc is official.

Yhwach wasn't afraid of Ichigo’s bankai getsuga tensho, he was cautious of the bankai itself, reason being we see him come back after getting sliced in half with ichigo bankai's GT but even with that almighty prior didn't want to face it.

And also the bankai yhwach didn't want to face was a bankai stacked on his merged hollow powers not his regular bankai, seeing as he still dominates bankai ichigo when he comes back till uryu nullifies the almighty.

Mugetsu has a wider range than GT when it's fired. This is expected.

Ginjo uses Getsuga Tensho twice. Tokinada dodges one, takes damage from the other, then takes damage from Bankai Kensei, but is saved from fatal wounds by Hanataro's Zanpakuto. If I remember correctly, the Getsuga Tensho that Tokinada couldn't dodge and took damage from was Ichigo's strongest Getsuga Tensho, said to be as powerful as any of Yhwach's.

Tokinada is nowhere near as strong as any of Yhwach's forms. There's strong evidence in the same novel that he's weaker than Yamamoto and Pre-Hogyoku Aizen. It also mentions that he could easily take a hit from Urahara's Kido. I also seem to recall him implying he could die against Shunsui's Bankai.

Girikko says that Base Grimmjow's GRC is slightly more powerful than Ginjo's GT. In terms of speed, the GT is slightly faster than the GRC, he notes.

Maybe they are talking about Bankai Yamamoto’s full power which we never saw defeated on screen. So far nobody scales to Bankai Yamamoto. Also Hogyoku Aizen scales to Soul King level God because databook says so.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

And almost 2 years have passed between safwy and arrancar arc, its closer to the time of the lost agent arc than the arrancar arc saga.

No, there's a 17-month time difference between the Fullbring arc and the Arrancar arc. I think you don't know that SAFWY is after the Arrancar saga and before the Fullbring arc. The Fullbring arc is the Lost Agent Shinigami arc.

Look closely at the manga panel at the end of Zaraki's fight with Girikko; his eye patch is different, and his hairpins are gone. So SAFWY is before The Lost Agent Shinigami. There's no concrete explanation of how long ago that was. Only a few months were mentioned. It could be assumed to be a few three months. Also, we don't know when Mayuri last saw Byakuya.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Maybe they are talking about Bankai Yamamoto’s full power which we never saw defeated on screen. So far nobody scales to Bankai Yamamoto. Also Hogyoku Aizen scales to Soul King level God because databook says so.

No, the statement refers to the holding back shikai Yamamoto during Rukia's execution. Shunsui is comparing the heat of Tokinada's flames to Yamamoto's flames and says Yamamoto's were hotter.

If a person using Enrakyoten Zanpakuto is weaker than another, they cannot use their Shikai ability as well.

The statement that Aizen is weaker than Tokinada refers to Aizen who doesn't have Hogyoku. Tokinada copied the zanpaktos of the characters in the FKT Arc. At that time, Aizen was pre-Hogyoku Aizen.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Cien would one shot Zommari with just one tentacle, and it's not even an hyperbole.

The exaggerated point would be the characters going from tier 6 to tier 5 in such a short time. It wouldn't be such an exaggeration if it started with Zommari.

Not even Lanza del Relampago? F

Lanza del Relampago is scalable. Because even Vasto Lord Ichigo uses partial resurrection to destroy it. Although it's not very clear in the anime due to lighting, it's more understandable in the manga. Also, Orihime can restore the Soi Fon arm destroyed by Baraggan's Respira, but she can't heal the wound Ulquiorra inflicted on Ichigo's chest with Cero Oscuars. This is a matter of power, because Ulquiorra told her that her power wasn't enough to heal it.

I think Respira should have an AP value because reiatsu is considered power in this wiki. It should be listed as an Age MP that can affect Low 5-B Bleach characters.

 

[Specterxxxx]

No, there's a 17-month time difference between the Fullbring arc and the Arrancar arc. I think you don't know that SAFWY is after the Arrancar saga and before the Fullbring arc. The Fullbring arc is the Lost Agent Shinigami arc.

I meant a year not two years my bad, a year as also passed since the events of the arrancar saga in the novels as well. Also we shouldn't compare hollows AD with Soul reapers AD. Hollows get stronger by devouring other hollows unlike soul reapers and training. The piccaro is even more crazy because the get more numbers becoming stronger and they were trapped with plenty hollows under heuco mondo.

Look closely at the manga panel at the end of Zaraki's fight with Girikko; his eye patch is different, and his hairpins are gone. So SAFWY is before The Lost Agent Shinigami. There's no concrete explanation of how long ago that was. Only a few months were mentioned. It could be assumed to be a few three months. Also, we don't know when Mayuri last saw Byakuya.

Its not a few months, a year has passed, gimme a sec to find a scan

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

I meant a year not two years my bad, a year as also passed since the events of the arrancar saga in the novels as well. Also we shouldn't compare hollows AD with Soul reapers AD. Hollows get stronger by devouring other hollows unlike soul reapers and training. The piccaro is even more crazy because the get more numbers becoming stronger and they were trapped with plenty hollows under heuco mondo.

Wait a minute, were we talking about Picaro's AD? I mentioned that Byakuya's power wouldn't increase that much.

 

[Specterxxxx]

The exaggerated point would be the characters going from tier 6 to tier 5 in such a short time. It wouldn't be such an exaggeration if it started with Zommari.

There are no characters going from tier 6 to tier 5 in a short time, some characters are already tier 5 in the arrancar arc.

Lanza del Relampago is scalable. Because even Vasto Lord Ichigo uses partial resurrection to destroy it. Although it's not very clear in the anime due to lighting, it's more understandable in the manga. Also, Orihime can restore the Soi Fon arm destroyed by Baraggan's Respira, but she can't heal the wound Ulquiorra inflicted on Ichigo's chest with Cero Oscuars. This is a matter of power, because Ulquiorra told her that her power wasn't enough to heal it.

Restoring an arm isn't the same as restoring a hole through where your heart is suppose to be, there is even the possibility of soul reaper organs(forgotten the name) being affected

 

[Specterxxxx]

Wait a minute, were we talking about Picaro's AD? I mentioned that Byakuya's power wouldn't increase that much.

Byakuya was already low 5B in the arrancar arc tho, since he along with Kenpachi kills yammy who would be low 5B as well.

 

[Apotheosis69]

There are no characters going from tier 6 to tier 5 in a short time, some characters are already tier 5 in the arrancar arc.

Restoring an arm isn't the same as restoring a hole through where your heart is suppose to be, there is even the possibility of soul reaper organs(forgotten the name) being affected

I mean she REALLY did want to bring Ichigo back to life, and her power is based on her conviction. Cus who wouldn't want to bring your best friend back. Yet wasn't able to...

 

[Specterxxxx]

I mean she REALLY did want to bring Ichigo back to life, and her power is based on her conviction. Cus who wouldn't want to bring your best friend back. Yet wasn't able to...

I mean yeah, but I don't get your point.

 

[Apotheosis69]

I mean yeah, but I don't get your point.

In that the Spiritual Pressure from Ulquiorra's Lanza is higher than Baraggan's Respira. Though as before Respira is pure hax, so not really much to go off of there.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Restoring an arm isn't the same as restoring a hole through where your heart is suppose to be, there is even the possibility of soul reaper organs(forgotten the name) being affected

It wasn't mentioned that regenerating an arm is more difficult than regenerating a hole in the chest. Also, I recall that when regenerating Menoly's wounds, he was able to repair wounds on a large part of the body, including the chest.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

There are no characters going from tier 6 to tier 5 in a short time, some characters are already tier 5 in the arrancar arc.

But those who are already Tier 5 are characters like Aizen and Yamamoto, at a level that others can't reach.

Byakuya was already low 5B in the arrancar arc tho, since he along with Kenpachi kills yammy who would be low 5B as well.

I think Byakuya's feats with Yammy are outliers, but the bigger problem is that Yammy loses without even being able to fight them when he's in his peak form. As described in the short story "Nestle to Night," he collapses from exhaustion due to rage. So he doesn't directly lose to Zaraki and Byakuya.

 

[Specterxxxx]

In that the Spiritual Pressure from Ulquiorra's Lanza is higher than Baraggan's Respira. Though as before Respira is pure hax, so not really much to go off of there.

Not really, via cien's statements, barragan would age lanza so fast before it reaches him which makes barragan have the higher reaistu in this case.

It wasn't mentioned that regenerating an arm is more difficult than regenerating a hole in the chest. Also, I recall that when regenerating Menoly's wounds, he was able to repair wounds on a large part of the body, including the chest

And why are we using orihime to scale characters, her powers are dependent on her mental state, she nearly went insane seeing ichigo get a hole blown threw his body. We can't use that as a comparison to every other instance where she is at her best.

I think Byakuya's feats with Yammy are outliers, but the bigger problem is that Yammy loses without even being able to fight them when he's in his peak form. As described in the short story "Nestle to Night," he collapses from exhaustion due to rage. So he doesn't directly lose to Zaraki and Byakuya.

How are they outliers exactly? We literally see him injured and seriously beaten. They scale.

 

[Specterxxxx]

But those who are already Tier 5 are characters like Aizen and Yamamoto, at a level that others can't reach.

Shunsui, bankai Bkakuya, Starkk with wolves, 2nd form yammy, Barragan's Respira and kenpachi post yammy fight all scale

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Shunsui, bankai Bkakuya, Starkk with wolves, 2nd form yammy, Barragan's Respira all scale

I’m not even sure all these people would scale, but I’ll wait for your thread.
Because as far as I know, no Espada scales to 100% Cien, since he himself admits he could even take on Full Hollow Ichigo, and only Aizen could beat him.

But maybe that calc you working on, scales to the Picaro right? which are weaker than Cien, so you scale them off Byakuya?

 

[Specterxxxx]

I’m not even sure all these people would scale, but I’ll wait for your thread.
Because as far as I know, no Espada scales to 100% Cien, since he himself admits he could even take on Full Hollow Ichigo, and only Aizen could beat him.

But maybe that calc you working on, scales to the Picaro right? which are weaker than Cien, so you scale them off Byakuya?

You misunderstand, the calc comes from the sawfy piccaro not cien but who scales to it is dependent on cien's own words. He says only starkk wolves, Yammy physicals and Baraggan's Respira can surpass the gran rey cero he unleashes on roka in the entire hueco mondo including the piccaro Black hole. Which means those abilities are stronger and anyone stronger than those abilities are stronger as well.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Also thinking about it well now, I could multiply the picaro black hole statistic value by 10 for the gran rey cero amp (10× the value) and scale the characters from there.

 

[Apotheosis69]

I feel like that Cien statement is boasting.

 

[Specterxxxx]

I feel like that Cien statement is boasting.

How? Cien wouldn't make empty boasting even if he was doing that. He has very high in depth information on every hollow and arrancar in heuco mondo.

 

[Apotheosis69]

Very well, do you have the calc in a blog already?

Edit: NVM found it

 

[Apotheosis69]

So Cien's Gran Rey Cero, Resurrecciόn: Starrk's Wolves & maybe Gran Rey Cero, Resurrecciόn: Baraggan's "Respira" and prob Gran Rey Cero, Maximal Resurrecciόn Yammy, and Eyepatchless SAFWY Kenpachi scale to the calc?

 

[NeonTxme]

Welll I uuhhhhuh (I'd like to see you guys join the discussion, I'll answer every point made tmrw!)

Revaluation of SS Ichigo AP

@WhixGG forced me into this wallahi I'm finished. Happy New Year! I hope everyone is having a wonderful time! Since this is my first CRT, there may be a few mistakes here and there since I'm also writing this on a wonderful school night with the clock striking 3:30AM, anyways now let's cut back...

vsbattles.com

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

And why are we using orihime to scale characters, her powers are dependent on her mental state, she nearly went insane seeing ichigo get a hole blown threw his body. We can't use that as a comparison to every other instance where she is at her best.

Why wouldn't she try to save the man she loves with her best performance when he's dying? Besides, her emotional state increases the strength of the barriers. There's no indication that her ability to heal others' bodies has increased. It was specifically shown that she had a mental amp in the Yhwach fight. And Orihime received a mental amp while Ulquiorra was in base form.

How are they outliers exactly? We literally see him injured and seriously beaten. They scale.

The reason it's considered an outlier isn't actually because of this. Reaching Yammy level from Zommari level in a single day would be an outlier, especially considering he used a 2x amp Senkei to match Bankai Ichigo in the Soul Society arc. There's also not much more than four months between the Soul Society and Arrancar arcs. He also struggles against Tsukishima in the Fullbring arc. Tsukishima is weaker than CFYOW Base Grimmjow, and Grimmjow has never been stronger than Baraggan or, as a dolly, stronger than Yammy.

Shunsui, bankai Bkakuya, Starkk with wolves, 2nd form yammy, Barragan's Respira and kenpachi post yammy fight all scale

How is Shunsui going to scale up? Starrk doesn't use his wolves against Shunsui. He did in the anime, but the anime has a lower canon level than the manga. Also, after using the wolves, Starrk's soul splits, meaning the Starrk Shunsui defeated was an off-guard, nerfed Starrk, and even he was defeated with Hax. Even the non-serious Starrk's Cero took Shunsui out of action. The Databook confirms that Starrk wasn't serious until Baraggan died.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

So Cien's Gran Rey Cero, Resurrecciόn: Starrk's Wolves & maybe Gran Rey Cero, Resurrecciόn: Baraggan's "Respira" and prob Gran Rey Cero, Maximal Resurrecciόn Yammy, and Eyepatchless SAFWY Kenpachi scale to the calc?

Yes, Eye Patch Zaraki <= 60% Cien

Even 60% Cien is physically superior to Respira, Wolves, and Yammy.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Why wouldn't she try to save the man she loves with her best performance when he's dying? Besides, her emotional state increases the strength of the barriers. There's no indication that her ability to heal others' bodies has increased. It was specifically shown that she had a mental amp in the Yhwach fight. And Orihime received a mental amp while Ulquiorra was in base form.

Because her powers depend on her mental state, she wouldn't be at her best performance when she is literally shown to almost loose her mind if ichigo hadn't woken up. She isn't at her peak here.

The reason it's considered an outlier isn't actually because of this. Reaching Yammy level from Zommari level in a single day would be an outlier, especially considering he used a 2x amp Senkei to match Bankai Ichigo in the Soul Society arc. There's also not much more than four months between the Soul Society and Arrancar arcs

So? 4 months is enough time to go from Country to Small planet level, if you are trying to use kisuke as an example. He is going from country to MSS.

. He also struggles against Tsukishima in the Fullbring arc. Tsukishima is weaker than CFYOW Base Grimmjow, and Grimmjow has never been stronger than Baraggan or, as a dolly, stronger than Yammy.

Because tsukishima knows his weaknesses and strengths and can bypass durability lol. Not because he was too strong for byakuya.

How is Shunsui going to scale up? Starrk doesn't use his wolves against Shunsui. He did in the anime, but the anime has a lower canon level than the manga

kubo was involved in the fake karakura town arc scripts in the anime and the databooks says Shunsui in shikai surpasses starkk's power, which is clearly in his profile.

. Also, after using the wolves, Starrk's soul splits, meaning the Starrk Shunsui defeated was an off-guard, nerfed Starrk, and even he was defeated with Hax

doesn't matter, databooks says shunsui is superior.

. Even the non-serious Starrk's Cero took Shunsui out of action. The Databook confirms that Starrk wasn't serious until Baraggan died.

You realise shunsui was PRETENDING right? Thats why Lisa kicks his ass and that shunsui was off-guarded as well.

 

[Apotheosis69]

Yes, Eye Patch Zaraki <= 60% Cien

Even 60% Cien is physically superior to Respira, Wolves, and Yammy.

Is that supposed to be less than or equal to ≤?

So EyepatchLESS Zaraki = 100% Cien? And yet Gran Rey Cero Cien scales 10x even off of that?

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Because her powers depend on her mental state, she wouldn't be at her best performance when she is literally shown to almost loose her mind if ichigo hadn't woken up. She isn't at her peak here.

He's losing his mind because he can't fix Ichigo. It's not that he can't fix him because he's lost his mind.

So? 4 months is enough time to go from Country to Small planet level, if you are trying to use kisuke as an example. He is going from country to MSS.

I disagree that Kisuke scales Aizen in his Zanpakuto Ap, but even if you accept that, you could say Kisuke is regaining his past power because he's rusted. And you mentioned that this could be the case when we discussed it before.

Because tsukishima knows his weaknesses and strengths and can bypass durability lol. Not because he was too strong for byakuya.

I think you forgot how Tsukishima's ability works. For him to enter someone's memories, he first needs to stab the person with his sword. This means he already had enough AP to hit Byakuya even before training with him. So, Byakuya took damage from a weaker character than CFYOW Base Grimmjow.

Also, even if that were the case, knowing how someone's abilities work =/= being able to deal damage even if you don't have enough AP to hit them.

kubo was involved in the fake karakura town arc scripts in the anime and the databooks says Shunsui in shikai surpasses starkk's power, which is clearly in his profile.

doesn't matter, databooks says shunsui is superior.

We've discussed this before. The word "overcome" in this expression doesn't mean becoming stronger. It can also be used if you're defeating someone. This means overcoming an obstacle.

Even if you interpret it in terms of strength, as you suggest, he only surpasses Starrk, who was nerfed because his character's spirit was split. If his spirit is stronger than Starrk's unnerfed spirit, why didn't he defeat him before? Shunsui became serious after Ukitake was pierced, but he still took damage from Starrk's Cero, who wasn't serious. We're only going to scale Starrk's wolves to Low 5-B. Will Shunsui, being Low 5-B, take damage from Cero, which is lower than Low 5-B?

Shunsui's physical stats are also weaker than Nnoitra's. Are we going to scale Nnoitra to Low 5-B wolves as well?

Resurrection Starrk>Resurrection Nnoitra>NF No Eye Patch Zaraki>NF Eye Patch Zaraki>MoN Eye Patch Zaraki>>Mue~~Shikai Ukitake~~Shikai Shunsui

You realise shunsui was PRETENDING right? Thats why Lisa kicks his ass and that shunsui was off-guarded as well.

Why would Shunsui reduce his durability when Ukitake is being pierced by Wonderweiss? You know what off-guard is, right? The character is already aware of being in combat and is attacking Wonderweiss.

Are you saying Tosen doesn't get AP scale just because Shinji attacks Aizen and Tosen intervenes and hits him?

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Is that supposed to be less than or equal to ≤?

So EyepatchLESS Zaraki = 100% Cien? And yet Gran Rey Cero Cien scales 10x even off of that?

Yes, less than or equal to:

60% Cien => Eye Patch Zaraki
100% Cien => No Eye Patch Zaraki. Therefore, I say the old eye patch is 1.67 times (rounded to 2) amp. Of course, this doesn't seem to comply with the site's rules. For the new Eye Patch, Mayuri says it seals 10 times more than the old one. So I say 2x10=20x attenuation. Then I use this to create the following order:

V2 Gerard > Unohana > Grammy > Pernida

 

[Apotheosis69]

Yes, less than or equal to:

60% Cien => Eye Patch Zaraki
100% Cien => No Eye Patch Zaraki. Therefore, I say the old eye patch is 1.67 times (rounded to 2) amp. Of course, this doesn't seem to comply with the site's rules. For the new Eye Patch, Mayuri says it seals 10 times more than the old one. So I say 2x10=20x attenuation. Then I use this to create the following order:

V2 Gerard > Unohana > Grammy > Pernida

Where is Mayuri's statement?

And that 100% Cien is taking into account his Resurreccion right? And 60% being above Starrk's Wolves, Respira and Maximal Yammy being his Resurreccion?

 

[Specterxxxx]

He's losing his mind because he can't fix Ichigo. It's not that he can't fix him because he's lost his mind.

This is not a counter, she was already shown to have a mental argument even before she started healing ichigo. This is false.

I disagree that Kisuke scales Aizen in his Zanpakuto Ap, but even if you accept that, you could say Kisuke is regaining his past power because he's rusted. And you mentioned that this could be the case when we discussed it before.

I am following wiki scaling, its not whether about you agree or not.

I think you forgot how Tsukishima's ability works. For him to enter someone's memories, he first needs to stab the person with his sword. This means he already had enough AP to hit Byakuya even before training with him. So, Byakuya took damage from a weaker character than CFYOW Base Grimmjow.

By this logic tsukishima will scale to true shikai ichigo lol. His sword can bypass durability my guy.

And we are literally told fullbringers are low captain level threats, byakuya isn't a low captain and again there is no evidence of tsukishima being weaker than cyfow grimjoww.

Also, even if that were the case, knowing how someone's abilities work =/= being able to deal damage even if you don't have enough AP to hit them.

Byakuya from the fight was obviously the stronger opponent, the only reason the fight was a tough one was because of his abilities not AP.

We've discussed this before. The word "overcome" in this expression doesn't mean becoming stronger. It can also be used if you're defeating someone. This means overcoming an obstacle.

We haven't discussed that before, the wiki already accepts unless you make a CRT proving your case. Then I will follow with what the wiki says.

Even if you interpret it in terms of strength, as you suggest, he only surpasses Starrk, who was nerfed because his character's spirit was split. If his spirit is stronger than Starrk's unnerfed spirit, why didn't he defeat him before? Shunsui became serious after Ukitake was pierced, but he still took damage from Starrk's Cero, who wasn't serious.

There is nothing about serious or not, not being serious doesn't limit your attack potency. Again shunsui tanked that attack.

We're only going to scale Starrk's wolves to Low 5-B. Will Shunsui, being Low 5-B, take damage from Cero, which is lower than Low 5-B?

He did not take damage and he was off-guarded.

Shunsui's physical stats are also weaker than Nnoitra's. Are we going to scale Nnoitra to Low 5-B wolves as well?

Imma need you to prove this.

Resurrection Starrk>Resurrection Nnoitra>NF No Eye Patch Zaraki>NF Eye Patch Zaraki>MoN Eye Patch Zaraki>>Mue~~Shikai Ukitake~~Shikai Shunsui

This is baseless chain scaling that is soo false as hell. Arrancar arc zaraki until after the fight with nniotara isn't stronger than shunsui.

Why would Shunsui reduce his durability when Ukitake is being pierced by Wonderweiss? You know what off-guard is, right? The character is already aware of being in combat and is attacking Wonderweiss.

Yes attacking wonderweiss, not expecting an attack from another character and he doesn't get hurt by the attack either.

Are you saying Tosen doesn't get AP scale just because Shinji attacks Aizen and Tosen intervenes and hits him?

Huh?

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Where is Mayuri's statement?

It's found towards the end of the novel.

You can check the scan you want on this blog. Mayuri's statement is also here. I only disagree with the Cien > Ulquiorra part on this blog. The rest seems correct.

 

[Specterxxxx]

It's found towards the end of the novel.

You can check the scan you want on this blog. Mayuri's statement is also here. I only disagree with the Cien > Ulquiorra part on this blog. The rest seems correct.

I should make an argument for Kenpachi’s gaining a 50 times amp from removing his post safwy eye patch. Since the previous one in sawfy gave him a bankai level (5) times boost and the new is one is 10 times nerfed.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

This is not a counter, she was already shown to have a mental argument even before she started healing ichigo. This is false.

Can you show me the panel? I can't remember it.

By this logic tsukishima will scale to true shikai ichigo lol. His sword can bypass durability my guy.

Ichigo was off-guard and had already taken a lot of hits from Yhwach. No, Tsukishima doesn't scale up to him in terms of power. At worst, I'd call him an outlier. Besides, Tsukishima's ability to outmaneuver Byakuya throughout the fight isn't something that would qualify as an outlier. Byakuya had to lower his guard to defeat him.

Let me give you an example using Shinji. Does Shinji's ability to hit off-guard Aizen mean we're upscaling him to Aizen's level? No, because he has anti-feats that show he's not at Aizen's level. There are many things that show Tsukishima won't be at the level of True Shikai Ichigo. But there's nothing that shows he won't be at the level of Byakuya, at least not at the level of the Fullbring arc. One is a scene of him hitting an outlier, the other is a long fight. The two can't be compared.

In the Kisuke chapter, you said you were arguing based on what the Wiki accepts. The Wiki accepts that Tsukishima scales to Byakuya. Zommari also scales to Byakuya. You can't upscale from Espada level 7 to Espada level 0 in a few hours without doing anything, especially considering Zommari's speed is enough to react to Senbonzakura Gokei. Yammy, on the other hand, should have even higher reaction and attack speed than Zommari.

And we are literally told fullbringers are low captain level threats, byakuya isn't a low captain and again there is no evidence of tsukishima being weaker than cyfow grimjoww.

On what basis exactly are you saying Byakuya isn't a low-level captain? The evidence used to support Byakuya's claim of strength is:

1) He was able to hit Gerard (This is considered invalid on the wiki because Toshiro froze him. Even if Toshiro hadn't frozen him, we'd still call him an outlier because while V1 couldn't even scratch Gerard, V3 could hit Gerard with Senkei, and Senkei only gives a 2x AP boost).

2) He was able to hit Yammy.

If you're not scaling the character to Yammy and Gerard, you'd already place Byakuya at the very bottom of the captain rankings. In the first arc, he was shown as Ichigo's opponent, using Bankai for the first time... So no, Byakuya is a low-level captain. It was also stated in Nestle to Night that Yammy was defeated in an off-screen fight. Zaraki and Byakuya don't beat Yammy's final form. The scenes where Byakuya is involved in the fight are also outliers due to the anti-feats against Tsukishima and Zommari. For years, this wiki and many communities have scaled Byakuya to Yammy to upscale the characters. If you don't scale him to Yammy, characters like Liltotto, Meninas, and Robert wouldn't have such a high tier.

The novel shows us Base Grimmjow fighting against Tsukishima and Base Ginjo. Girikko tells us that Base Grimmjow's GRC is slightly stronger than Base Ginjo's GT. The same applies to speed, with Ginjo GT being slightly faster than Grimmjow's GRC.

We also see Tsukishima trying to impress Grimmjow with the Book of the End, but Grimmjow is unimpressed (meaning not affected in the way Tsukishima wanted) because Grimmjow is capable of attacking even his own allies. So how can you say such a battle didn't happen?

Base Grimmjow GRC AP => Base Ginjo GT AP > CFYOW Tsukishima's durability > The Lost Agent Shinigami arc Tsukishima's durability.

In the same novel, it is also stated that Grimmjow still cannot surpass Baraggan, which puts him below Yammy.

Final form Yammy>Baraggan>CFYOW Resurrection Grimmjow>CFYOW Base Grimmjow>CFYOW Tsukishima> TLAS Tsukihima>TLAS Byakuya

We haven't discussed that before, the wiki already accepts unless you make a CRT proving your case. Then I will follow with what the wiki says.

We discussed this in the Fullbring Ichigo downgrade CRT. Naeobito also argued that Starrk > Shikai Shunsui. Unlike me, Naeobito ONLY argued that Shikai Shunsui was weaker than Starrk in the FKT arc.

There is nothing about serious or not, not being serious doesn't limit your attack potency. Again shunsui tanked that attack.

We've seen many times in the series that attacks can be weaker when they're not taken seriously.

Imma need you to prove this.

This is baseless chain scaling that is soo false as hell. Arrancar arc zaraki until after the fight with nniotara isn't stronger than shunsui.

Do you watch Shikai Ukitake vs Mue fights? They're relative, and Eye Patch Zaraki easily defeats Mue. Against Nnoitra, the eye patch fell off. While Nnoitra scales into a stronger Zaraki form, Mue gets one-shotted by a weaker Zaraki form. And Mue is Shikai Ukitake level.

In the Arrancar arc, you need to prove Shunsui is stronger.

Yes attacking wonderweiss, not expecting an attack from another character and he doesn't get hurt by the attack either.

Why would my durability decrease when attacking Wonderweiss? You didn't understand the Shinji-Tosen example I gave. You're arguing that durability decreases when you're off-guard. Yes, it does decrease, but characters should guard when attacking someone, even if they don't know someone is attacking them. Attacking Wonderweiss =/= I only have durability that tanks Wonderweiss's attacks; my durability is low against others. This only explains why I don't react to the speed of other attacks. It doesn't answer why I can't withstand them.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

I should make an argument for Kenpachi’s gaining a 50 times amp from removing his post safwy eye patch. Since the previous one in sawfy gave him a bankai level (5) times boost and the new is one is 10 times nerfed.

Where does it say that the previous eye patch weakened its power to Bankai level (5x)?