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Murder Drones CRT: Black Hole Calculation Removal

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sorry, I thought you had read the OP's thread, my bad.
No problem. This summary is much better.

When it seems like a thread has gone back-and-forth for a while I tend to ask for a summary instead of just trying to read the OP (which may be outdated) or the entire thread (which may take way too long).

Anyway, I believe I've been in a debate about this before, and I was already suspect then but all the additional evidence here has definitely convinced me that treating this like a real black hole is going to be incredibly unreliable and probably shouldn't be done.
 
No problem. This summary is much better.

When it seems like a thread has gone back-and-forth for a while I tend to ask for a summary instead of just trying to read the OP (which may be outdated) or the entire thread (which may take way too long).

Anyway, I believe I've been in a debate about this before, and I was already suspect then but all the additional evidence here has definitely convinced me that treating this like a real black hole is going to be incredibly unreliable and probably shouldn't be done.
I would just like to properly understand why, since the Null is a singularity that clearly has a gravitational attraction which can be activated and deactivated. I can even prove it if you want.
 
I would just like to properly understand why, since the Null is a singularity that clearly has a gravitational attraction which can be activated and deactivated. I can even prove it if you want.
I don't doubt that it does, but if it changes so readily then we can't be sure that it acts exactly like a black hole in whatever instance we're calculating for.

It may have some properties but not others, and generally it sort of confirms that it's not really a black hole itself, even if it sometimes emulates some properties of one.

Even in real life, there's theorized to be singularities which are not black holes and have different properties, so it's definitely possible that's the case here too.
 
I don't doubt that it does, but if it changes so readily then we can't be sure that it acts exactly like a black hole in whatever instance we're calculating for.

It may have some properties but not others, and generally it sort of confirms that it's not really a black hole itself, even if it sometimes emulates some properties of one.

Even in real life, there's theorized to be singularities which are not black holes and have different properties, so it's definitely possible that's the case here too.
Basically, if the Null is a singularity that can take whatever form its user wants, then even if the Null that destroyed Earth did not have gravitational attraction at that moment (and I agree that this is undeniable), it could have gravitational attraction if Cyn chose to activate it, since it is something that can be turned on and off.

Therefore, calculating it as if it had gravitational attraction does not actually change the calculation, because the calculation would simply be showing the amount of joules it would produce if gravitational attraction were activated. I’m not sure if I’m being clear.
 
Basically, if the Null is a singularity that can take whatever form its user wants, then even if the Null that destroyed Earth did not have gravitational attraction at that moment (and I agree that this is undeniable), it could have gravitational attraction if Cyn chose to activate it, since it is something that can be turned on and off.

Therefore, calculating it as if it had gravitational attraction does not actually change the calculation, because the calculation would simply be showing the amount of joules it would produce if gravitational attraction were activated. I’m not sure if I’m being clear.
I'm just saying it's not a 'real black hole', I have no idea how exactly that affects the calculation.

You'd need to talk to a Calc Group Member about that.
 
I'm just saying it's not a 'real black hole', I have no idea how exactly that affects the calculation.

You'd need to talk to a Calc Group Member about that.
For me as well, it’s not really a black hole; it’s more of a spacetime anomaly that can take on all the characteristics of a black hole. And which can therefore be calculated as such. But yes, we would need the opinion of a member of the calculation group.

But I’d like to clarify your position: are you in favor of the OP, against the OP, or skeptical meaning neutral?
 
For me as well, it’s not really a black hole; it’s more of a spacetime anomaly that can take on all the characteristics of a black hole.

But I’d like to clarify your position: are you in favor of the OP, against the OP, or skeptical meaning neutral?
I'm against it being assumed to be a real black hole.

If an existing calculation relies on that assumption, then that calculation will most likely become invalid and need to be redone using a different method.

I won't make a blanket statement like the OP that all calculations that treat it as even black hole-adjacent need to be removed because I simply don't know if that's accurate.
 
I'm against it being assumed to be a real black hole.

If an existing calculation relies on that assumption, then that calculation will most likely become invalid and need to be redone using a different method.

I won't make a blanket statement like the OP that all calculations that treat it as even black hole-adjacent need to be removed because I simply don't know if that's accurate.
Basically, you’re against treating it as a black hole, but you’re unsure whether the existing calculations should still be considered, is that correct?

Also, even if you decide to remove it, when I have the time I will make a CRT for my calculation, because I made a completely different calculation based on the shockwaves caused by the Null that we see in the series when the Null is compressed by its user. I then transferred that energy to the Null that destroyed Earth and obtained 2.76 × 10⁵¹ joules, which corresponds to multi–solar system level. I also had this calculation checked by one of my university professors, so even if you invalidate the current calculation, I still have that as backup.
 
Basically, you’re against treating it as a black hole, but you’re unsure whether the existing calculations should still be considered, is that correct?
Correct.

I'd want a CGM to weigh in on that.
 
I'm against it being assumed to be a real black hole.

If an existing calculation relies on that assumption, then that calculation will most likely become invalid and need to be redone using a different method.

I won't make a blanket statement like the OP that all calculations that treat it as even black hole-adjacent need to be removed because I simply don't know if that's accurate.
The assumption comes from black holes equations being mentioned in the show and merch.
 
Those are both way too vague to conclude anything.
These are the equations that describe black holes, made by Albert Einstein, and the other one is a document that clearly states that the Null is a singularity, it can hardly be more precise than that.
 
These are the equations that describe black holes, made by Albert Einstein, and the other one is a document that clearly states that the Null is a singularity, it can hardly be more precise than that.
I mean more the fact they're just kind of randomly in the background.
That could mean a lot of things, they could've been used for a variety of reasons.

Also, how do we know that document is referring to Null specifically there?
 
I mean more the fact they're just kind of randomly in the background.
That could mean a lot of things, they could've been used for a variety of reasons.

Also, how do we know that document is referring to Null specifically there?


Because the equations are hidden in Nori’s research on the Solver, the equations related to the black hole are therefore connected to the Absolute Solver. This follows narrative and semantic logic.

As for the document, it’s something you receive when you buy a JCJanson pen, and as a bonus you get this document. That document is intended for the scientists of Cooper-9, and it explains how to survive certain types of catastrophes. In this case, the catastrophe in question is a singularity, illustrated with an image (which is missing).

This acts as foreshadowing related to the destruction of Earth. That means the Null that destroyed Earth is a singularity. On top of that, at the end of episode 2, there is another hidden document called “Gravitational Wave Detected on Site 48.”

On one of the research sites, they detected gravitational waves, which are phenomena produced by black holes. These waves were detected from Cooper-9 during the destruction of Earth. Once again, this strongly points toward the black hole theory.

There are simply too many elements supporting this interpretation for it not to be intentional. One coincidence is believable but four? That’s very unlikely.
 
I'm fairly sure glitch sees them as black holes (top left text at 0:05 though pause and go slow cuz it disappears fast)

the issue moreso relies on how their behavior is shown, which overall makes me torn and neutral on how they should be calced as I outlined every usage here before:

this is the closest thing to a black hole appearance i found overall along with this and if thats fine then sure but they seem to act differently across its usage

null creating an explosion

null warping space and turning the surrounding area to organic waste

another explosion

explosion

nulls being used as discs that can slice through anything and can just open a hole where it was summoned behind n (it should be noted these are also the ones that glitch considers "black holes")

same as above

probably not a null but likely is the singularity made to destroy the planet which would probably be overall seperate, also being used to create giant tentacles that can tear apart the planet, this one is also overtime.

a null being used as a projectile that can go through a planet

this projectile also caused whatever hit to have an error and literally be frozen in reality

nulls being used as projectiles and they create explosions that disperse clouds

null creates a hole through the planet with a piercing beam of light

not sure how the core should be differentiated but it can stop time and also reduce things hit into organic waste

overall they seem to have some weird dura neg, spatial manip, transmutation or matter manip (for the organic thing idk) and likely information manip with how it can just cause an error with reality which is kinda consistent with how the solver manipulates reality like code for its hax.

for calcs idk personally, evaluaters can decide.
 
Anyway, even if Glitch meant for them to be black holes we can't ignore the fact they often don't act like one.

Stated black holes still can't be treated as black holes for calculations if they don't act somewhat realistically.
While a completely correct depiction can not be expected, some basic laws have to be followed. If that is not the case, we can not be certain about the black hole being an actual black hole and not just a fake black hole, which can not be assumed to have the properties black holes usually have.
 
Anyway, even if Glitch meant for them to be black holes we can't ignore the fact they often don't act like one.

Stated black holes still can't be treated as black holes for calculations if they don't act somewhat realistically.
yeah, thats kinda the side i lean on
 
I'm going to look into this, after some prodding to do so. This thread isn't quite a necro yet, and though it was trending against black hole usage, it was not concluded. This is important, because I have been asked to look at certain black hole calcs that, at least on the surface, don't look much like black holes at all. Will post here my thoughts when I've the time to read the arguments.
 
sorry, I thought you had read the OP's thread, my bad.
The author argues that the Nulls created by the Absolute Solver in Murder Drones are not black holes, making black hole–based calculations invalid.

A Null with a radius of ~27 million meters would have a mass nearly 10,000 times that of the Sun, which should cause catastrophic gravitational effects. However, the Null repels matter, does not affect the Moon or the solar system, and nearby debris moves away from it.

Similarly, a Null with a radius of ~1.29 meters would have more mass than Saturn, yet shows no gravitational influence on its surroundings.

These feats directly contradict black hole behavior, so Nulls should not be treated as black holes in calculations.

---------------------------------------------------

The counter-argument claims that the Null’s gravitational attraction is optional and adjustable. In some scenes, gravitational attraction is shown, sometimes weak and sometimes strong, suggesting it can be controlled.

They also argue that, according to the lore and various easter eggs, the Null is explicitly described as a singularity, meaning a point where spacetime curvature becomes infinite and the known laws of physics break down. Another easter egg directly references Einstein’s general relativity, linking the Null to spacetime anomalies.

Based on this, they claim the Null is a spacetime anomaly capable of taking any form, including that of a black hole if it so chooses. Therefore, the “Big Null” that destroyed Earth could have exhibited black hole-like gravitational attraction if Cyn had wanted it to. Therefore, calculating the Null as a black hole is valid since it can take on all the characteristics of a black hole.

Make your choice.
I'm replying to this, after having gone over the evidence above.

I think it is hard to take easter eggs as hard evidence. The presence of black hole equations could mean a lot of things (like, perhaps someone in-verse thought Nulls were black holes), but they're presented unseriously, so I find them to be lesser in relevance.

I think, then, that there are some pretty generous assumptions taken to get Nulls to black holes. Meanwhile, I find the evidence against their classification as a black hole to be extremely straightforward and satisfactory. They don't act like a black hole at all.

Therefore, I would err on the side of disallowing their use.

Correct.

I'd want a CGM to weigh in on that.
We wouldn't use the black hole calcs if we concluded they are not true black holes.
 
I'm replying to this, after having gone over the evidence above.

I think it is hard to take easter eggs as hard evidence. The presence of black hole equations could mean a lot of things (like, perhaps someone in-verse thought Nulls were black holes), but they're presented unseriously, so I find them to be lesser in relevance.

I think, then, that there are some pretty generous assumptions taken to get Nulls to black holes. Meanwhile, I find the evidence against their classification as a black hole to be extremely straightforward and satisfactory. They don't act like a black hole at all.

Therefore, I would err on the side of disallowing their use.


We wouldn't use the black hole calcs if we concluded they are not true black holes.

Good evening. To start, I want to clarify that I did not say that Null is not a real black hole, but rather that it can be manipulated by its user to behave however they want. I will clarify and provide more evidence in my argument.

Let me give you all the information present in the series and outside of the series.

1) In episode 7 (at 7:52), a poster clearly states:
The singularity is actively consuming everything.

So the Null is indeed a singularity

2) If you buy a JCJanson Pen, there is a note included with a kind of survival tutorial for certain catastrophes, and one of them mentions “singularity”, with the note [not image found] above it a direct reference to the assimilation of Earth.

3) But that’s not all. In episode 2, we can read a document called:
Gravitational waves detected at Site 48.

This means that from Copper-9, they detected the gravitational waves produced by Cyn’s Null, detected from Site 48, most likely one of the laboratories.

So the Null does generate gravitational waves, which is a very important clue.

But what is a gravitational wave?

They are ripples in spacetime, caused by the most violent and energetic events in the universe.
These ripples propagate in all directions from their source.

All Nulls cause this phenomenon. I specify that this is an invisible phenomenon.

Now, we know that the Null produces gravitational waves, and gravitational waves are almost always produced by singularities.

4) And in episode 4 (at 1:23 and 1:25), we see that Nori is using Albert Einstein’s equations, the ones that describe the curvature of spacetime in general relativity. Which is the fourth proof that null is indeed a singularity.

5) On X (formerly twitter), glitch production posted this image which literally contains the formula for a black hole, Schwarzschild radius.

6) Glitch Productions posted a behind-the-scenes footage short on YouTube for Murder Drones, which literally refers to Null as a black hole.

7) In episode 8, when Uzi and Cyn perform a Null clash, the two Nulls start orbiting each other just like black holes would, with one key difference: they don’t merge but instead violently separate, because they were created by different users and don’t have access to one another. That’s why they didn’t merge. However, at first, they were about to merge before being abruptly forced apart.

8) Liam Vickers created several concept arts of the core located inside the Solver admins’ bodies, and in these concepts he explicitly refers to them as black holes. This shows that they are connected to black holes primarily through their physiology itself. We can also see these black holes in episode 2 and episode 8, which once again demonstrates their clear connection to black holes.

9) The Nulls is capable of to Bend space and light after creating it , which is main aspect of this. even further more, absorb matter around it.


Now I will now respond on the only argument that contradicts everything I've just said: the claim that null supposedly has no gravitational attraction what is wrong.

Null does have a gravitational attraction, but it’s controllable by its user, who can reduce it at will.

As proof the small Null thrown by Uzi was able to massively enlarge the hole of Copper-9 because at that moment, Uzi had activated gravitational attraction at 100%. Which means that Null pulled in all that matter, even though it passed through a hole and therefore never physically came into contact with the matter. So how could Null do that without having any gravitational force ?

so in my opinion and conclusion of my argumation is: Null is canonically a black hole and behaves as such, but it can also be freely controlled by its administrator. Which means that even if the Null in episode 5 doesn’t show any attraction, Cyn can change that if she wants, as shown with Uzi. She simply has no reason to activate a gravitational pull on the Null that destroyed Earth. So this calculation just shows the potential of the Null and what it could destroy if Cyn had chosen to do so. And even if my argument didn't convince you, then assume that there is far more evidence showing that it's a black hole than the opposite.
 
Good evening. To start, I want to clarify that I did not say that Null is not a real black hole, but rather that it can be manipulated by its user to behave however they want. I will clarify and provide more evidence in my argument.

Let me give you all the information present in the series and outside of the series.

1) In episode 7 (at 7:52), a poster clearly states:
The singularity is actively consuming everything.

So the Null is indeed a singularity

2) If you buy a JCJanson Pen, there is a note included with a kind of survival tutorial for certain catastrophes, and one of them mentions “singularity”, with the note [not image found] above it a direct reference to the assimilation of Earth.

3) But that’s not all. In episode 2, we can read a document called:
Gravitational waves detected at Site 48.

This means that from Copper-9, they detected the gravitational waves produced by Cyn’s Null, detected from Site 48, most likely one of the laboratories.

So the Null does generate gravitational waves, which is a very important clue.

But what is a gravitational wave?

They are ripples in spacetime, caused by the most violent and energetic events in the universe.
These ripples propagate in all directions from their source.

All Nulls cause this phenomenon. I specify that this is an invisible phenomenon.

Now, we know that the Null produces gravitational waves, and gravitational waves are almost always produced by singularities.

4) And in episode 4 (at 1:23 and 1:25), we see that Nori is using Albert Einstein’s equations, the ones that describe the curvature of spacetime in general relativity. Which is the fourth proof that null is indeed a singularity.

5) On X (formerly twitter), glitch production posted this image which literally contains the formula for a black hole, Schwarzschild radius.

6) Glitch Productions posted a behind-the-scenes footage short on YouTube for Murder Drones, which literally refers to Null as a black hole.

7) In episode 8, when Uzi and Cyn perform a Null clash, the two Nulls start orbiting each other just like black holes would, with one key difference: they don’t merge but instead violently separate, because they were created by different users and don’t have access to one another. That’s why they didn’t merge. However, at first, they were about to merge before being abruptly forced apart.

8) Liam Vickers created several concept arts of the core located inside the Solver admins’ bodies, and in these concepts he explicitly refers to them as black holes. This shows that they are connected to black holes primarily through their physiology itself. We can also see these black holes in episode 2 and episode 8, which once again demonstrates their clear connection to black holes.

9) The Nulls is capable of to Bend space and light after creating it , which is main aspect of this. even further more, absorb matter around it.


Now I will now respond on the only argument that contradicts everything I've just said: the claim that null supposedly has no gravitational attraction what is wrong.

Null does have a gravitational attraction, but it’s controllable by its user, who can reduce it at will.

As proof the small Null thrown by Uzi was able to massively enlarge the hole of Copper-9 because at that moment, Uzi had activated gravitational attraction at 100%. Which means that Null pulled in all that matter, even though it passed through a hole and therefore never physically came into contact with the matter. So how could Null do that without having any gravitational force ?

So here is my conclusion: Null is canonically a black hole and behaves as such, but it can also be freely controlled by its administrator. Which means that even if the Null in episode 5 doesn’t show any attraction, Cyn can change that if she wants, as shown with Uzi. She simply has no reason to activate a gravitational pull on the Null that destroyed Earth. So this calculation just shows the potential of the Null and what it could destroy if Cyn had chosen to do so. And even if my argument didn't convince you, then assume that there is far more evidence showing that it's a black hole than the opposite.
I didn't say you did. I was replying to your post, the summary, with my own end opinions.
 
I mean-
I think @Kirua29 just want to explain why Nulls are black holes in most of their appearances to you.
Sure, but now I get to explain myself again: I was replying to the first line of their new post, which seemed to rebuke the idea that I had been suggesting what they were saying, when that was not my intention. I understand that the purpose of their post is to present the information again.
 
Good evening. To start, I want to clarify that I did not say that Null is not a real black hole, but rather that it can be manipulated by its user to behave however they want. I will clarify and provide more evidence in my argument.

Let me give you all the information present in the series and outside of the series.

1) In episode 7 (at 7:52), a poster clearly states:
The singularity is actively consuming everything.

So the Null is indeed a singularity

2) If you buy a JCJanson Pen, there is a note included with a kind of survival tutorial for certain catastrophes, and one of them mentions “singularity”, with the note [not image found] above it a direct reference to the assimilation of Earth.

3) But that’s not all. In episode 2, we can read a document called:
Gravitational waves detected at Site 48.

This means that from Copper-9, they detected the gravitational waves produced by Cyn’s Null, detected from Site 48, most likely one of the laboratories.

So the Null does generate gravitational waves, which is a very important clue.

But what is a gravitational wave?

They are ripples in spacetime, caused by the most violent and energetic events in the universe.
These ripples propagate in all directions from their source.

All Nulls cause this phenomenon. I specify that this is an invisible phenomenon.

Now, we know that the Null produces gravitational waves, and gravitational waves are almost always produced by singularities.

4) And in episode 4 (at 1:23 and 1:25), we see that Nori is using Albert Einstein’s equations, the ones that describe the curvature of spacetime in general relativity. Which is the fourth proof that null is indeed a singularity.

5) On X (formerly twitter), glitch production posted this image which literally contains the formula for a black hole, Schwarzschild radius.

6) Glitch Productions posted a behind-the-scenes footage short on YouTube for Murder Drones, which literally refers to Null as a black hole.

7) In episode 8, when Uzi and Cyn perform a Null clash, the two Nulls start orbiting each other just like black holes would, with one key difference: they don’t merge but instead violently separate, because they were created by different users and don’t have access to one another. That’s why they didn’t merge. However, at first, they were about to merge before being abruptly forced apart.

8) Liam Vickers created several concept arts of the core located inside the Solver admins’ bodies, and in these concepts he explicitly refers to them as black holes. This shows that they are connected to black holes primarily through their physiology itself. We can also see these black holes in episode 2 and episode 8, which once again demonstrates their clear connection to black holes.

9) The Nulls is capable of to Bend space and light after creating it , which is main aspect of this. even further more, absorb matter around it.


Now I will now respond on the only argument that contradicts everything I've just said: the claim that null supposedly has no gravitational attraction what is wrong.

Null does have a gravitational attraction, but it’s controllable by its user, who can reduce it at will.

As proof the small Null thrown by Uzi was able to massively enlarge the hole of Copper-9 because at that moment, Uzi had activated gravitational attraction at 100%. Which means that Null pulled in all that matter, even though it passed through a hole and therefore never physically came into contact with the matter. So how could Null do that without having any gravitational force ?

so in my opinion and conclusion of my argumation is: Null is canonically a black hole and behaves as such, but it can also be freely controlled by its administrator. Which means that even if the Null in episode 5 doesn’t show any attraction, Cyn can change that if she wants, as shown with Uzi. She simply has no reason to activate a gravitational pull on the Null that destroyed Earth. So this calculation just shows the potential of the Null and what it could destroy if Cyn had chosen to do so. And even if my argument didn't convince you, then assume that there is far more evidence showing that it's a black hole than the opposite.
I don't really want to get into this, to lengthen this discussion unnecessarily. The thread is too long and has been in circles for a long time. So, I will post this one thing, and that will be that. I will then ask us to begin changing the verse to reflect the fact that we wouldn't consider these black holes.

  1. Easter egg, already addressed, non-serious.
  2. Tertiary piece of evidence, "singularity" has other meanings, and the AI singularity could reasonably apply, I believe.
  3. Earth produces gravitational waves, this is just a nothing burger.
  4. Lots of math there, vague evidence. Also not strictly connected to black holes.
  5. Tertiary evidence, presented as an easter egg.
  6. Tertiary evidence, the phrase "black hole" itself is so overused that it borders on irrelevance.
  7. So they don't operate as black holes would. For this to work, it requires a very particular interpretation, which isn't strictly true.
  8. Tertiary evidence, see point 6.
  9. This is a property of sufficient gravity. Again, every trait you've been describing as a black hole having, Earth also has.
The counter evidence has no complications to it. I'm voting that these should be removed. I would like us to discuss what to do with the verse now that these are not regarded to be black holes. I have been told that the next best feats are probably Tier 5, now would be the time to conjure those for use.
 
Then two options lay before you. You can assist in the thread's completion by working on what comes next, or you can stop interacting with it. Thank you.
 
Cyn was stated able to destroy the universe in like 30 days, does that help on gaining higher values?
Dunno. Has that ever been tackled in a CRT? Seems like something that would be, but the profile doesn't have any rating related to it.
 
Dunno. Has that ever been tackled in a CRT? Seems like something that would be, but the profile doesn't have any rating related to it.
its not really battle applicaple and happens over such a long period of time that I dont think it could grant a rating.
 
Easter egg, already addressed, non-serious.
Your easter egg argument is basically ignoring evidence (they aren't easter eggs, they are extra details, the "easter eggs" are the sneaky references like the memes around the actual detail), they're not invalid to the lore.
 
Your easter egg argument is basically ignoring evidence (they aren't easter eggs, they are extra details, the "easter eggs" are the sneaky references like the memes around the actual detail), they're not invalid to the lore.
That's what an easter egg is, for the record.

That aside, I'm obviously not ignoring evidence. The very fact that it is accounted for at all makes this obvious. But the evidence is weaker for the fact that it isn't given any actual credence in the show, and is presented by the showrunners as a joke than some hard-established rule of the verse.
 
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