Timeline destruction should not grant hax

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Permission granted by @Qawsedf234.

Hello. The point of this thread is that abilities/hax should not be granted for destroying all of cosmology, or a similar feat.

The main problem with the former is that Causality Manipulation, Space-Time Manipulation, Non-Physical Interaction with Laws, etc. are given to characters like these for mere destruction of all cosmology, because the cosmology was stated to consist of these things. The problem is, all of universes by default should have its own causality, laws, space and time, and similar things, just like they do in real life, and thus any character who can perform destruction on Low 2-C or greater scale should technically have these: he would destroy all laws, space, time, history, causality tied to the universe by destroying the very thing they are tied to. These characters would also have to resist these said abilities (just like characters on the page do) and have some form of Acausality. But authors usually overlook the implications of timeline destruction, and rarely ever explain how the character survived the destruction despite having killed his past-self which would cause his current-self to vanish (see Consistency Paradox). Thus I propose that cosmology destruction will not grant any of the aforemntioned abilties, even if the aspects were mentioned to exist, because they should logically exist anyways. This is similar how we don’t grant lots of implied abilities for creating universe that contain them. I think this should be a note of the hax page, as well as Acausality.

Something like:

Destruction of the universe, which would consequently lead to the destruction of all causality, space, time, laws, and other things contained by this universe would not grant any hax, even if these aspects are mentioned to exist in said universe, because they already would exist there by default. This is because fiction usually overlooks the implications of such destruction, for example a character destroying the universe he came from would cause a temporal paradox, but fiction rarely addresses that.

And

Surviving the destruction of the space-time, which would consequently lead to death of the past versions of the survivor, should not grant Acausality, as fiction usually overlooks such implication and rarely ever addresses this paradox.

Agree: @Firestorm808, @Vietthai96 (Doesn't mind a rule if others want to), @Antvasima (Agrees with Vietthai), @Reiner04, @FinePoint
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[KLOL506]

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Everything12 @GrathOfLux @Agnaa @Ultima_Reality @Firestorm808 Input here would be appreciated.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Bump

 

[Firestorm808]

I agree that just "destruction" of something shouldn't give you full "manipulation" of that thing. At best, you get "limited" manipulation.

 

[Vietthai96]

Causality Manipulation, Space-Time Manipulation, Non-Physical Interaction with Laws, etc.

Yeah no, we never grants these abilities from simply destroying space-time universe. NPI could be granted though, since if you can destroy space-time, mean you can interact with it, and space-time while possesses physical quality and quantity, is intangible, you can't grab space or time so interact with them do grant you NPI

Other abilities you mentioned? No, probably could be granted via some additional contexts supported by the verse, but generally, no we don't and there are actually a lot of verse have space-time universal to multiversal destruction but we didn't grant these ability, at best is character who have hax to erase space-time can have space-time erasure.

So i all and all, after reading this part from the OP, and the mentioned characters, this isn't standard issue, but evaluation issue, standard is all but a guideline to follow, what matter is how we applies this guideline when evaluating a CRT, thus, the issue lies in the CRT thread that was accepted, and staffs who evaluated the thread allowed these abilities to pass, of course, no offense to any staffs, made some mistakes, missed some tiny but crucial evidences can happen

So i don't think we really need to debating about standard for these thing. Unless these kind of thing being the norm, then yeah a staff discussion to address the issue is guaranteed. But currently, look like only some characters have these abilities due to reasons so this could be fixed by making a CRT to address this problem

I agree that just "destruction" of something shouldn't give you full "manipulation" of that thing. At best, you get "limited" manipulation.

Yeah no, there wouldn't even be limited, by default a universe already have its causality and law of physics, however they are tied to the universe, when the universe was destroyed, its causality and law of physics goes away too, it is indirect, chain reaction feat, you get no abilities from this aside from AP, if you are the one who destroyed the universe of course. This is similar to how we don't grant anyone who alter reality CM2 because concept type 2 is tied to physical reality, alter reality will alter the concept due to the relationship between the concept and the reality. This actually applies to mostly everything else, unless you have explicit proofs that you can directly do something to these causality, laws, etc.......you will not get the abilities simply via destroying thing

Secondly, I would also want for the said code-universe like relationship, that is required for Information Manipulation Type 2, be for the structures in general, rather than a specific universe. For example, we grant Information Manipulation for this, which is basically destroying the special universe which is actually a game for the other universes. I believe this should really fall under Data Manipulation, since it's just a special universe designed as a game, not really what we want by saying "comprises all of reality". I think a small note on Information Manipulation to solve this would suffice.

If the suppose code, data actually made up physical world, reality, universe, etc... then it is information type 2 because data or code can be used interchangeably with information (actually data carry information) so if that suppose specific universe is an actual physical universe then it is qualified as IM2, being saw or designed as game universe is irrelevant, as long as that specific actually and physically exist as a part of physical reality then it is qualified. Unless the universe you mentioned didn't truly exist physically and simply just a game, a program, simulation or something equipvalent then yeah, it isn't qualified as IM2 and simply Data Manipulation

Though again, this is another situation that depend on the verse itself and its contexts, evidences; this isn't an issue which we can generalized into a specific thing and put it into the standard, which as i have said, standard is simply a general guideline, we can't just change, edit standard everytime when something wrong was accepted and put on the profile

Though again i appreciate the effort of the OP who made this thread, there is some issues indeed, just not standard issue, at least from what i see

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Yeah no, we never grants these abilities from simply destroying space-time universe. NPI could be granted though, since if you can destroy space-time, mean you can interact with it, and space-time while possesses physical quality and quantity, is intangible, you can't grab space or time so interact with them do grant you NPI

So, would you want to make it a rule that any destruction on Tier 2 scale and higher (if it includes time) is automatically NPI? Also NPI with space and time specifically as I understand?

Other abilities you mentioned? No, probably could be granted via some additional contexts supported by the verse, but generally, no we don't and there are actually a lot of verse have space-time universal to multiversal destruction but we didn't grant these ability, at best is character who have hax to erase space-time can have space-time erasure.

Yes, exactly, so I wanted to standardize it because it is not explicitly mentioned in the rules, although destruction of timeline does imply that you manipulated causality, law, history, etc., and should get acausality if survived.

So i all and all, after reading this part from the OP, and the mentioned characters, this isn't standard issue, but evaluation issue, standard is all but a guideline to follow, what matter is how we applies this guideline when evaluating a CRT, thus, the issue lies in the CRT thread that was accepted, and staffs who evaluated the thread allowed these abilities to pass, of course, no offense to any staffs, made some mistakes, missed some tiny but crucial evidences can happen

So i don't think we really need to debating about standard for these thing. Unless these kind of thing being the norm, then yeah a staff discussion to address the issue is guaranteed. But currently, look like only some characters have these abilities due to reasons so this could be fixed by making a CRT to address this problem

Well, you are right that this issue is rather limited, but imo we should apply it at least because it is basically same as Creation page rules (creating universe wouldn’t grant black hole creation despite it technically being correct). The lack of such rule is likely what allowed these characters to get this in the first place.

If the suppose code, data actually made up physical world, reality, universe, etc... then it is information type 2 because data or code can be used interchangeably with information (actually data carry information) so if that suppose specific universe is an actual physical universe then it is qualified as IM2, being saw or designed as game universe is irrelevant, as long as that specific actually and physically exist as a part of physical reality then it is qualified. Unless the universe you mentioned didn't truly exist physically and simply just a game, a program, simulation or something equipvalent then yeah, it isn't qualified as IM2 and simply Data Manipulation

Valid. Although I’ll say that view stemmed moreso from the fact that Information has to be a a fundamental block for reality in general rather than specific places.

Though again, this is another situation that depend on the verse itself and its contexts, evidences; this isn't an issue which we can generalized into a specific thing and put it into the standard, which as i have said, standard is simply a general guideline, we can't just change, edit standard everytime when something wrong was accepted and put on the profile

Well, to be fair the case mentioned in the OP isn’t wrong if we go by your proposal. My proposal came more from the fact that I wanted to specify that “reality” should be in general, universal, hence why specific universe are not ok.

Though again i appreciate the effort of the OP who made this thread, there is some issues indeed, just not standard issue, at least from what i see

Thank you.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Bump

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Bump

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Bump?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Bump ig

 

[Aolphl]

Bump?

 

[Reiner04]

We have similar Note in 'Implied Powers' section of Creation Page. Maybe we can just add "Destruction feats shall be treated in a similar manner unless more context is given towards the nature of destruction" with it?

Creation

Creation is the ability to create something from nothing, without manipulating existing things. The user can create organic or inorganic matter from nothing either as finished objects or simply unfinished elements. As long as it can be defined as object, the user has the power to make it...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

This reviving was not on my bingo card.

We have similar Note in 'Implied Powers' section of Creation Page. Maybe we can just add "Destruction feats shall be treated in a similar manner unless more context is given towards the nature of destruction" with it?

Creation

Creation is the ability to create something from nothing, without manipulating existing things. The user can create organic or inorganic matter from nothing either as finished objects or simply unfinished elements. As long as it can be defined as object, the user has the power to make it...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Aye-aye, sounds good to me. I think it should be on hax page?

 

[Reiner04]

Aye-aye, sounds good to me. I think it should be on hax page?

Sounds good to me.

@Antvasima what you think about this thread?

 

[Vietthai96]

Forgot about this thread lol

So, would you want to make it a rule that any destruction on Tier 2 scale and higher (if it includes time) is automatically NPI? Also NPI with space and time specifically as I understand?

I don't really think we need a rule, but if anyone likes a rule, then okay, I guess. Also, tier 2 structure is strictly spatial & temporal dimensions, not destroying random structure that have tier 2 stats

although destruction of timeline does imply that you manipulated causality, law, history, etc.,

No, you don't manipulate anything, just the destruction of the timeline could lead to a indirect destruction of those that tied to the timeline, such as causality, fate or law, etc....

So what ability can be granted via surviving timeline destruction is heavility depends on contexts, We can't really generalize into a standard

Well, you are right that this issue is rather limited, but imo we should apply it at least because it is basically same as Creation page rules (creating universe wouldn’t grant black hole creation despite it technically being correct). The lack of such rule is likely what allowed these characters to get this in the first place.

I don't really think we need a rule, but if others wants a rule then i'm not really against it

Valid. Although I’ll say that view stemmed moreso from the fact that Information has to be a a fundamental block for reality in general rather than specific places.

"Reality" is a very broad term; it could be a small space or a big dimension. They are just range/scale stuff; it doesn't really impact whether information qualifies as fundamental or not, like concept. What's important when evaluating information is type 2 or not, based on how it acts

Well, to be fair the case mentioned in the OP isn’t wrong if we go by your proposal. My proposal came more from the fact that I wanted to specify that “reality” should be in general, universal, hence why specific universe are not ok.

Again, we can't; it really depends on the verses themselves; we can't force everything to go according to what we want. Standard should be a guideline, not a prison

 

[Antvasima]

Sounds good to me.

@Antvasima what you think about this thread?

Vietthai seems to make sense here.

 

[FinePoint]

No strong thoughts on the exact wording right now, but I definitely agree with the OP.

Assuming otherwise may be a fallacy of composition, actually, or at the very least a slippery slope for granting way more abilities than are actually ever demonstrated.

 

[Antvasima]

Do we have sufficient approvals here to apply this now?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Do we have sufficient approvals here to apply this now?

As I reflected in the OP, we have three "supporting" and two "not minding".

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

As I reflected in the OP, we have three "supporting" and two "not minding".

Okay, and which staff members think what here currently?

 

[Vietthai96]

Oke, since most people asking for a note, i will try to make a rough draft and everyone can based on this to improvise, since my wording isn't the best thing lol

It should be noted that aspects such as laws, causality, fate, etc.....are often tied to physical reality (space-time continuum/timeline); thus the creation, alteration and destruction of physical reality itself by default also includes these aspects as well. Unless there's additional context that proves the direct manipulation of aspects such as causality, law, fate & etc.....creating, altering and/or destroying the space-time continuum/timeline shouldn't grant abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, Law Manipulation & among others, except for a degree of Space-Time Manipulation; as the creation, alteration and destruction of these aspects via space-time continuum/timeline manipulation would be a form of indirect manipulation

 

[KLOL506]

Wasn't a similar thread like this done before

 

[Antvasima]

@Firestorm808 @FinePoint @Reiner04

What do you think about this?

Timeline destruction should not grant hax

Permission granted by @Qawsedf234. Hello. The point of this thread is that abilities/hax should not be granted for destroying all of cosmology, or a similar feat. The main problem with the former is that Causality Manipulation, Space-Time Manipulation, Non-Physical Interaction with Laws, etc...

vsbattles.com

 

[Reiner04]

@Firestorm808 @FinePoint @Reiner04

What do you think about this?

Timeline destruction should not grant hax

Permission granted by @Qawsedf234. Hello. The point of this thread is that abilities/hax should not be granted for destroying all of cosmology, or a similar feat. The main problem with the former is that Causality Manipulation, Space-Time Manipulation, Non-Physical Interaction with Laws, etc...

vsbattles.com

No issue with characters having indirect manipulation limited to physical things (such as black holes or space-time) via the destruction of the spacetime, provided these effects are unusable in combat. However, I believe Metaphysical aspects should be considered irrelevant to the physical destruction of a universe on its own without having to mention it, unless explicitly specified otherwise within fiction. Depending on what is accepted here, I believe corresponding changes should be made to the Implied Powers section of the Creation Page.

 

[Vietthai96]

A reminder that my note was made with intention of being a soft standard that encompasses not only creation but also other forms of manipulation such as alteration and destruction. So update note on Creation page only is not enough

 

[Antvasima]

What do you have in mind, more specifically?

 

[Vietthai96]

Tbh, idk, only Creation page have a section for Implied Powers which we can put note in, i tried to find a proper page that can put my note in but to no avail, the last place i could see is FAQ but the only FAQ page is for Tiering System, hmmm

 

[Reiner04]

This reviving was not on my bingo card.

Aye-aye, sounds good to me. I think it should be on hax page?

Tbh, idk, only Creation page have a section for Implied Powers which we can put note in, i tried to find a proper page that can put my note in but to no avail, the last place i could see is FAQ but the only FAQ page is for Tiering System, hmmm

We can also add a note to the Hax page as it is for regarding hax related specifics, as suggested by @TheOrangeGuy09

 

[Vietthai96]

We can add a note to the Hax section as it is for regarding hax related specifics, as suggested by @TheOrangeGuy09

oke, that is a good idea

 

[FinePoint]

@Firestorm808 @FinePoint @Reiner04

What do you think about this?

Timeline destruction should not grant hax

Permission granted by @Qawsedf234. Hello. The point of this thread is that abilities/hax should not be granted for destroying all of cosmology, or a similar feat. The main problem with the former is that Causality Manipulation, Space-Time Manipulation, Non-Physical Interaction with Laws, etc...

vsbattles.com

It buries the lede a little.

It should lead with the fact that destroying a timeline doesn't automatically imply manipulation of various aspects of it, then elaborate as to why.

 

[Agnaa]

Wasn't a similar thread like this done before

Yeah, we already had a thread on this where it was agreed to do nothing, because we don't actually have any standards saying that destroying a thing grants the abilities of everything within that thing.

 

[Vietthai96]

Yeah, we already had a thread on this where it was agreed to do nothing, because we don't actually have any standards saying that destroying a thing grants the abilities of everything within that thing.

Yeah, originally i already said we don't really need a standard or a rule over this cause this issue is more of an evaluation issue rather than rule issue, but since most people in the thread ask for a note, so i complied

 

[Antvasima]

Yeah, we already had a thread on this where it was agreed to do nothing, because we don't actually have any standards saying that destroying a thing grants the abilities of everything within that thing.

Thank you. Should we close this thread then, or can any constructive revisions be made based on it?

 

[Agnaa]

Since it's come up so much, it might be worthwhile chucking a reminder somewhere. It's just that there isn't really a great place for it.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Since it's come up so much, it might be worthwhile chucking a reminder somewhere. It's just that there isn't really a great place for it.

I think it should be on hax page?

What do you think of my suggestion?

 

[Agnaa]

That's not a great place, since Hax is for abilities that bypass durability, and NPI doesn't fit into that (even though the others arguably do).

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

That's not a great place, since Hax is for abilities that bypass durability, and NPI doesn't fit into that (even though the others arguably do).

Tbf my thread was more about direct Info/Causality/etc. hax, @Vietthai96 just added that NPI can be granted too for destruction.

 

[Agnaa]

Hm, maybe we could chuck it in Celestial Body Feats? Not a great place since people don't tend to argue that characters get radiation manipulation for destroying a star, but it's close-ish.

 

[KLOL506]

What about the Universe page?