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Dragon Ball: Mister Satan Upgrades

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So up to now, we’ve been scaling Mr. Satan (and by extension his daughter Videl) to transonic based on this feat, which was never actually calculated. But if someone actually sat down and ran the numbers, they’d find it’s way more impressive than it looks at first glance.

New Speed: Mach Mach 5.64 (Hypersonic)
Agree:
Neutral
Disagree:
 
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So up to now, we’ve been scaling Mr. Satan (and by extension his daughter Videl) to transonic based on this feat, which was never actually calculated. But if someone actually sat down and ran the numbers, they’d find it’s way more impressive than it looks at first glance.

New Speed: Mach 10.86 (Hypersonic+)
Shouldn't Spopovich be included?
 
This seems a little odd to me as a feat. The distance between the characters firing the rockets and Mr. Satan seems quite large, at least 35 meters roughly going by some angsizing estimates.

Mr. Satan had full view of the rockets being shot, but didn't start moving out of the way until the rocket had crossed 34.2 meters and was only 0.8 meters away from him?
 
This seems a little odd to me as a feat. The distance between the characters firing the rockets and Mr. Satan seems quite large, at least 35 meters roughly going by some angsizing estimates.

Mr. Satan had full view of the rockets being shot, but didn't start moving out of the way until the rocket had crossed 34.2 meters and was only 0.8 meters away from him?
The rockets appear so close because the fins are measured to be tiny, so using them to angsize results in a small distance. And the reason the fins are tiny is because they assume that they had to fit inside the muzzle.

However, RPG Fins are actually folded up when inside the launcher, and flip out to full length mid flight. Only the neck of the rocket needs to be narrow enough to fit inside the launcher. The fins are bigger, meaning the rocket is further away from Mr. Satan when he moves, meaning he has more time, meaning the feat is slower.

(Also, Mr. Satan moving 10 meters based on RPG lethality seems too high considering how durable he is.)
 
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This seems a little odd to me as a feat. The distance between the characters firing the rockets and Mr. Satan seems quite large, at least 35 meters roughly going by some angsizing estimates.
Prove it.
Mr. Satan had full view of the rockets being shot, but didn't start moving out of the way until the rocket had crossed 34.2 meters and was only 0.8 meters away from him?
Mr. Satan should get a bit of leniency. Dude literally saw a dog die that he knew Buu was very emotionally invested in and was shocked that anyone could be stupid to piss him of, especially since he just got Buu to stop going full genocide.
The rockets appear so close because the fins are measured to be tiny, so using them to angsize results in a small distance. And the reason the fins are tiny is because they assume that they had to fit inside the muzzle.

However, RPG Fins are actually folded up when inside the launcher, and flip out to full length mid flight. Only the neck of the rocket needs to be narrow enough to fit inside the launcher. The fins are bigger, meaning the rocket is further away from Mr. Satan when he moves, meaning he
So there are several issues with this argument:
  1. Appeal to Reality. How something works in the real world isn't how something works in fiction. You have to prove that it does
  2. That isn't how the RPG works in Dragon Ball. In the manga you can see the fins are deployed far before the halfway mark. The anime makes this even more clear
  3. That isn't even the same kind of RPG. Different RPGs work differently
(Also, Mr. Satan moving 10 meters based on RPG lethality seems a bit generous considering how durable he is)
Perhaps I should have phrased it better in my original calc. When I said, " as we see him again, and he is completely unharmed." I meant to say that he no burn marks or dust on him indicating that he somehow got caught up in the explosion.
 
Prove it.
Well, if you use this panel, with a panel height of 369 pixels, Mr. Satan's 1.88 meter height being 14 pixels, then with this angsizing formula you used (1.88 * 369 / [14 *2*tan(70deg/2) ]) you get roughly 35 meters.

Perhaps I should have phrased it better in my original calc. When I said, " as we see him again, and he is completely unharmed." I meant to say that he no burn marks or dust on him indicating that he somehow got caught up in the explosion.

How fast would the explosion itself be? (As in, how quickly would it reach that 10 meter lethality range once it explodes)
 
Well, if you use this panel, with a panel height of 369 pixels, Mr. Satan's 1.88 meter height being 14 pixels, then with this angsizing formula you used (1.88 * 369 / [14 *2*tan(70deg/2) ]) you get roughly 35 meters.
Fair Enough
How fast would the explosion itself be? (As in, how quickly would it reach that 10 meter lethality range once it explodes)
Assuming it is a TBG-7V Warhead (due to the size of the explosion), it will be made up of 95% hexogen (or RDX as it is known in the west) which has a detonation velocity of 8750 m/s.
 
Mr. Satan should get a bit of leniency. Dude literally saw a dog die that he knew Buu was very emotionally invested in and was shocked that anyone could be stupid to piss him of, especially since he just got Buu to stop going full genocide.
Bee didn't die, he was just traumatically injured until Buu healed him.

Anyway, I was about to mention Damage having good points, but Anime as secondary canon does help clarify some context and I agree with this.
 
I think this overestimates the feat by assuming that Mr. Satan reached the 10 meter point before the explosion went off. It would take time for the explosion to reach a radius of ten meters and blast wave speed drops off sharply with distance.
 
I think this overestimates the feat by assuming that Mr. Satan reached the 10 meter point before the explosion went off. It would take time for the explosion to reach a radius of ten meters and blast wave speed drops off sharply with distance.
So the explosion wouldn't be traveling the same speed as the initial detonation velocity?
 
I think this overestimates the feat by assuming that Mr. Satan reached the 10 meter point before the explosion went off. It would take time for the explosion to reach a radius of ten meters and blast wave speed drops off sharply with distance.
The manga doesn't show that Mr. Satan was hit by the explosion, and when we later see him again, he shows no burn marks, dust, or really anything that would indicate he would have been caught in such an explosion. Unless you have a statement that proves otherwise, I believe my estimate for the calculation is reasonable especially when the anime shows the missile is closer and the blast is far larger.
 
The manga doesn't show that Mr. Satan was hit by the explosion, and when we later see him again, he shows no burn marks, dust, or really anything that would indicate he would have been caught in such an explosion. Unless you have a statement that proves otherwise, I believe my estimate for the calculation is reasonable especially when the anime shows the missile is closer and the blast is far larger.

I didn't say that he was hit by the explosion in my above post. Just that he doesn't need to be 10 meters away from the explosion before the explosion goes off, in order not to be hit by it.
 
So up to now, we’ve been scaling Mr. Satan (and by extension his daughter Videl) to transonic based on this feat, which was never actually calculated. But if someone actually sat down and ran the numbers, they’d find it’s way more impressive than it looks at first glance.

New Speed: Mach 10.86 (Hypersonic+)
Agree: @DarkDragonMedeus
Neutral
Disagree: @Damage3245
Don't bother just guessing 10m.


You can easily get the actual blast radius off the following page given it destroyed the house and left a crater in which the smoke rises from. It probably is about 10m ironically enough but better to be precise.

All that needs to be done is to scale the house off Buu (we get a bunch of shots), or maybe even just pick the last panel there and scale the concaved ground off Buu (it's a bit small of a panel but it should be good enough).
 
All that needs to be done is to scale the house off Buu (we get a bunch of shots), or maybe even just pick the last panel there and scale the concaved ground off Buu (it's a bit small of a panel but it should be good enough).
I think this should be fine, but I can already predict people are going to say that the blast radius is overestimated since the goons shot three rockets instead of one.
 
I think this should be fine, but I can already predict people are going to say that the blast radius is overestimated since the goons shot three rockets instead of one.
Maybe we can account for any delay by factoring in the speed of the explosion over the distance Satan would have to clear? Add that to the timeframe to better account for Satan's speed?
 
So I did some quick and dirty math:
08e2b6f10daef51f9b509337c6e8f42fb104e77b.png


Majin Boo: 7 Feet 4 inches = 2.2352 meters
158 Pixels * 2.2352 Meters / 26 Pixels = 13.5831384615 Meters
Divide by two, because this is the diameter not radius
13.5831384615 / 2 = 6.7915692308

That mean Mr. Satan moved 6.7915692308 * 300 / 0.8050075139 = 2530.9959647074 m/s or Mach 7.37 (Hypersonic)
Not as impressive but still leagues above Transonic
Maybe we can account for any delay by factoring in the speed of the explosion over the distance Satan would have to clear? Add that to the timeframe to better account for Satan's speed?
So we are going to calculate the Blast Radius, which is what I am already include in my calc?
Rex, I am just going to appeal to Occam's razor - which is the simplest explanation is the most likely.
Mr. Satan saw the rocket and ran away. When we see him again, there is nothing to indicated that he was caught in the blast radius - no burn marks, injuries, dust marks, destroyed clothing, his Afro being f*cked up, nothing. Ergo, the simplest explanation is that he moved far enough to escape the blast radius.
 
Mr. Satan saw the rocket and ran away. When we see him again, there is nothing to indicated that he was caught in the blast radius - no burn marks, injuries, dust marks, destroyed clothing, his Afro being f*cked up, nothing. Ergo, the simplest explanation is that he moved far enough to escape the blast radius.

Rex didn't say anything about Mr. Satan being caught in the blast radius. That isn't what we mean when we say take the time of the explosion itself into account.
 
So we are going to calculate the Blast Radius, which is what I am already include in my calc?
Rex, I am just going to appeal to Occam's razor - which is the simplest explanation is the most likely.
Mr. Satan saw the rocket and ran away. When we see him again, there is nothing to indicated that he was caught in the blast radius - no burn marks, injuries, dust marks, destroyed clothing, his Afro being f*cked up, nothing. Ergo, the simplest explanation is that he moved far enough to escape the blast radius.
Think they want you to add ~0.0007s to the current 0.0026s to account for the chance that Mr. Satan was on the edge of its radius when it detonated and just barely dodged it.
 
Rex didn't say anything about Mr. Satan being caught in the blast radius. That isn't what we mean when we say take the time of the explosion itself into account.
If Mr. Satan was running faster than the explosion instead of just the missile, why don’t we see him anywhere in the bottom panel after the explosion happens?
19175ff5e559d5d980a0d0357c592180fb696a24.png
 
If Mr. Satan was running faster than the explosion instead of just the missile, why don’t we see him anywhere in the bottom panel after the explosion happens?
19175ff5e559d5d980a0d0357c592180fb696a24.png
That’s not what I was saying, I’m saying the total timeframe for Mr Satan to move needs to account both for the time it takes for the rocket to hit its mark AND the time it takes for the explosion to travel it’s radius.
 
That’s not what I was saying, I’m saying the total timeframe for Mr Satan to move needs to account both for the time it takes for the rocket to hit its mark AND the time it takes for the explosion to travel it’s radius.
Yes, but your statement presupposes that Mr. Satan didn’t cover the distance until after both the rocket hit and the explosion went off. If that were the case, wouldn’t he at least be somewhere near the blast? Yet, in the panel I provided - which is literally the explosion - we don't see Mr. Satan anywhere.
 
Yes, but your statement presupposes that Mr. Satan didn’t cover the distance until after both the rocket hit and the explosion went off. If that were the case, wouldn’t he at least be somewhere near the blast? Yet, in the panel I provided - which is literally the explosion - we don't see Mr. Satan anywhere.
Not necessarily. The thing is that all we know is Satan was in the missile's trajectory, he then started running, we see the missile make it's mark followed by a couple more, next time we see Satan is when he's punching the hunters. All I'm saying is to add the timeframe of the explosion's expansion so we have an accurate maximum for the timeframe Satan moved.
 
Eh just tack the timeframe of the blast on, we don't actually know where he was when it detonated, eh could've been 10m away, 5m, 3m, who knows, we just know he was cleared by it by the time it fully expanded. It honestly won't change the result much, those things have an extremely fast detonation velocity, and even with decay at the very tip of the edges, it's still mach speed.
 
Eh just tack the timeframe of the blast on, we don't actually know where he was when it detonated, eh could've been 10m away, 5m, 3m, who knows, we just know he was cleared by it by the time it fully expanded. It honestly won't change the result much, those things have an extremely fast detonation velocity, and even with decay at the very tip of the edges, it's still mach speed.

Distance from Rocket to Mr. Satan: 0.8050075139
Speed of Rocket: 300 m/s
Blast Radius: 6.7915692308
AIX1 Detonation Velocity: 8238 m/s

Time = Distance/Speed
Rocket Time = 0.8050075139 /300 = 0.0026833584 seconds
Blast Time = 6.7915692308/8238 = 0.0008244197 seconds

Distance Satan Moved: 6.7915692308 Meters
Satan Revised Speed: 6.7915692308/(0.0026833584 + 0.0008244197) = 1936.1456275698 m/s = Mach 5.64 (Hypersonic)
 
Tbh that should be fine now, like I can't think of any other issue other people might have beyond "it's not a literal RPG7", which if anything is a low end given DB is sci fi af.
 
Idk I'm fine with it now, anything else is just splitting hairs.
which i do a lot but like gotta be fair here
 
Idk I'm fine with it now, anything else is just splitting hairs.
which i do a lot but like gotta be fair here
Well, to split hairs just a teensy bit more:

On our Explosion Speed Calculations page, we have a section for figuring out the timeframe here.

So if we use this calculator from that section, with a radius of 6.7915692308 meters, an explosive weight of 0.21 kg, an explosive type of RDX (since A-IX-1 is mostly RDX), then we get a timeframe of 14.81 ms, or 0.01481 seconds.

This is because we don't want to be using the detonation velocity which is how fast the shock wave travels through the explosive material itself, but the blast wave speed which slows down significantly with distance as the explosion spreads outward, even to a distance as low a 6.79 meters.

Based on that, I would say the corrected result would be: 6.7915692308/(0.0026833584 + 0.01481) = 388.237 m/s (Supersonic)

Still an upgrade for the characters, it turns out.
 
Well, to split hairs just a teensy bit more:

On our Explosion Speed Calculations page, we have a section for figuring out the timeframe here.

So if we use this calculator from that section, with a radius of 6.7915692308 meters, an explosive weight of 0.21 kg, an explosive type of RDX (since A-IX-1 is mostly RDX), then we get a timeframe of 14.81 ms, or 0.01481 seconds.

This is because we don't want to be using the detonation velocity which is how fast the shock wave travels through the explosive material itself, but the blast wave speed which slows down significantly with distance as the explosion spreads outward, even to a distance as low a 6.79 meters.

Based on that, I would say the corrected result would be: 6.7915692308/(0.0026833584 + 0.01481) = 388.237 m/s (Supersonic)

Still an upgrade for the characters, it turns out.
Yeah I really wouldn't say that's fair use here, it very much isn't RDX, the blast yield itself is like 8-C or close to it, which makes your use of 0.21kg extremely misleading and not applicable for this feat.

Obviously this is because the energy of the explosive far eclipses an actual RPG, thus treating it as a low grade and small amount of RDX downplays it a tad arbitrarily when we can see visually it's detonation speed decay would be far slower as a by product of its energy being far higher with the same mass.
And because of that, the speed decay doesn't quite work 1:1, it isn't losing anywhere near as much energy expanding through the air, and thus losing as much speed, as a standard rocket blast would. Hell using the fact it was able to blow apart his house at the edge, you could work backward and actually find the detonation decay via some ISL slop, and I can assure you it'd be quick a lot higher than what you're suggesting, and also very much not calc stacking given it's all the same feat and panel.

Which is to say. The warhead is like 8-C in terms of total yield. Legendarium can easily calc this, he already has the crater diameter, it should be around there, or close, might be 9-A, but all the same.
The explosion visibly blows apart an entire house and fills a multi-meter radius with destructive overpressure, which is way beyond what a real RPG charge could do.

If we're scaling the time via the blast radius, we can't just ignore the destruction it causes, then by definition the explosive is not behaving like a normal 0.21kg RDX. Thus plugging 0.21 kg RDX into a real-world blast calculator while also accepting a 6.8m destructive radius is inconsistent and drags the result down. It's wrong because it's objectively neither RDX or is similar enough yield to translate directly.

If you really wanna drag it down further, you kind of need to:
  • Either treat it as a realistic RPG (much lower yield, much smaller effective radius)
  • Or back-solve an equivalent TNT mass / yield from that and use that in the speed decay formula.
Using the same panel (blast radius + house destruction) to fix the yield and timeframe is not calc stacking either as mentioned, it’s just solving one event with multiple observable quantities in the same scene. What is arbitrary is forcing in a tiny real-world warhead mass that obviously can’t reproduce what’s on screen, and then treating the big boy blast's speed decay as 1:1 with the much less powerful explosion.

As said, anything else is just splitting hairs, it can't really drop much lower (I mean it can) without extensive extra work and it'd be negligible difference tbh.
 
Yeah I really wouldn't say that's fair use here, it very much isn't RDX, the blast yield itself is like 8-C or close to it, which makes your use of 0.21kg extremely misleading and not applicable for this feat.
I only used the explosive weight from the wikipedia link that the OP provided, under the assumption that we're treating this like an RPG which is why we use the velocity of an RPG.

And the OP was using the detonation velocity of A-IX-1 anyway, which is mostly RDX as I said. I'm not why you didn't criticize their assumed speed to the same level that you've done for mine.

We can figure out the blast yield of the explosion sure, and use that instead.
 
I only used the explosive weight from the wikipedia link that the OP provided, under the assumption that we're treating this like an RPG which is why we use the velocity of an RPG.

And the OP was using the detonation velocity of A-IX-1 anyway, which is mostly RDX as I said. I'm not why you didn't criticize their assumed speed to the same level that you've done for mine.

We can figure out the blast yield of the explosion sure, and use that instead.
Mostly fine with his because it's already a low end, the actual speed would be higher, not lower.
Also I did criticize it, if they didn't factor in the blast at all I would have argued, they complied and did so and used a place holder that acts as a minimum due to the actual showings of it so shrug close enough.

And I did mention here off-hand anyway.
Tbh that should be fine now, like I can't think of any other issue other people might have beyond "it's not a literal RPG7", which if anything is a low end given DB is sci fi af.
Didn't elaborate much because I didn't think it was needed or not self-evident, but the current set up is already a low end as it is, based on what it actually does.

If we wanna calc it to get even more precise that's fine, a tad excessive, but fine, nothing wrong with a lil excessivity, just treating it as a 0.21kg charge is very much not what we see tho.
 
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