Beast Boy (Teen Titans) vs Ditto

[Kiryu2012]

Beast Boy vs Ditto

Arena: Isla Nublar

Both start 100 meters away out of sight

Ditto has already transformed, and will only turn into opponents/objects it sees in the arena

Speed equal

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Can ditto immediately transform after already transforming?

If not then wouldn't ditto just transform into BB while he's human? What happens when BB turns into a dinosaur and bites chews them up?

 

[Imaginym]

Can ditto immediately transform after already transforming?

If not then wouldn't ditto just transform into BB while he's human? What happens when BB turns into a dinosaur and bites chews them up?

Typically, Ditto copies the moves of Transform's target.

If the opposing Pokemon is something like a Mew (Learns Transform via level up, & so can know it.) or Smeargle (Can know Transform by learning it through Sketch.), Transform will learn it. Ditto will have the Transform target's moves at 5 PP (Or less, in the case of moves with less than 5 Max PP, like Sketch, which only has 1 PP maximum.) out of the move's normal maximum (Stuff like Leppa Berries, Lunar Dance & maybe other stuff can restore the PP, but those almost certainly wouldn't come up here.), & Ditto's HP remains the same; Its max & current HP do not change as a result of the move's use.

As such, it also seems evident Ditto doesn't copy Stamina.
So Ditto would be able to copy Beast Boy's Transformation abilities & other techniques, though, it's not certain if it copies Intelligence, even if it can copy skills involved in using copied moves, presumably.

Here are some Pokedex entries with info about Ditto's behaviour & intelligence:

Gold "It can transform into anything. When it sleeps, it changes into a stone to avoid being attacked."
Silver "Its transformation ability is perfect. However, if made to laugh, it can't maintain its disguise."
Sun "It can reorganize its cells to make itself into a duplicate of anything it sees. The quality of the duplicate depends on the individual."
Moon "With its astonishing capacity for metamorphosis, it can get along with anything. It does not get along well with its fellow Ditto."
Ultra Sun "While it can transform into anything, each Ditto apparently has its own strengths and weaknesses when it comes to transformations."
Ultra Moon "It transforms into whatever it sees. If the thing it's transforming into isn't right in front of it, Ditto relies on its memory—so sometimes it fails."
Sword "It can reconstitute its entire cellular structure to change into what it sees, but it returns to normal when it relaxes."

How is TTTAS BB's Intelligence, Skill & Stamina?

Stamina: Superhuman

Range: Tens of Meters

Standard Equipment: None notable

Intelligence: Above Average (Has demonstrated great combat prowess and is naturally knowledgeable on a majority of the animal kingdom as well as some supernatural species such as aliens and Werebeasts. He has also shown leadership skills when the situation calls for it)

Weaknesses: Can be impatient and generally immature at times, is highly susceptible to hypnosis, transforming ability can be negated if forced to wear a very tight suit or in a small area, is just a regular boy without his shapeshifting powers if this happens (as was the case when Mother Mae Eye made him wear a bunny suit)



Also, there's a funny couple of note on Ditto's profile that's pertinent here:

• While inside the game it can transform into any Pokémon and copy exactly the stats, powers, attacks and appearance except the HP of the opponent, it is argued that Ditto rarely transforms into an opponent weaker than itself in combat. It is suggested that thread starters state the starting level/tier of Ditto. For reference, the current tier of Pikachu (one of the most notable starter Pokémon) is at most Low 7-B. If the thread starter wishes to set the floor tier of Ditto, the thread starter should state that in the starting thread and Pikachu will be the floor tier. However, the ceiling tier of Ditto should limit to the tier of Mew is 5-B.
• While it is stated in the Pokédex that a Pokémon can transform into any Pokémon according to its memories, it is also stated that "if it tries to transform itself into something by relying on its memory, this Pokémon manages to get details wrong". Unless the starter stated in the versus thread that it can transform into any Pokémon according to its memories, it should only be able to transform to any opponent or objects it can see in the battlefield.

The first note boils down to that Ditto won't transform into something weaker if it realizes that thing is weaker.
The second boils down to that Ditto can turn into other Pokemon base on memories, but it gets details wrong, so OP should specify if it can do so, or just "any opponent or objects it can see in the battlefield.".

Relevant Pokedex entry:

Sapphire
Ruby	Ditto rearranges its cell structure to transform itself into other shapes. However, if it tries to transform itself into something by relying on its memory, this Pokémon manages to get details wrong.

Also, Ditto has a small chance of holding an item, as listed by its Standard Equipment:

Standard Equipment: Quick Powder (Doubles its speed), Metal Powder (Raises its defense by 1.5x)

(Though it may be more like Optional Equipment.)

Quick Powder is 50% to be held, Metal Powder is 5% to be held, with the exception of Metal Powder being held 100% of the time in the arguable game mechanics case of Ditto transferred from R/B/Y (& maybe also Green?) to a future game where Held Items exist.
The other caveat besides their not-guaranteed presence is that they only affect Ditto while it isn't Transformed.



So yeah. How does Garfield match up in terms of Stamina, Intelligence & Skill?
Heck, is it enough to overcome the stat gap, in case Ditto is indeed stronger untransformed & Ditto realizes BB is weaker & so shouldn't Transform into him?

Also, as mentioned above, Ditto has flaws like having trouble "maintaining its disguise" should it be "if made to laugh". Garfield might not know about this to begin with, but if it came up & he noticed it, it might be relevant, & it's not like it's unheard of for Garfield to make others laugh. Not sure if as much so in a 1vs1 fight, though.

 

[Nonynho]

VERY hardly Gar can do something here. The transforms into animals, but i can't see any of them being 7-B or something like it.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut
There's a line where Ditto transforms into base Gar, because yeah, it should be stronger than its jelly self, therefore locking him into Gar's transformations, which Gar can use better, as i see it.
None of them are dummies, but if they're locked to the same transformations which Gar can use better, specially considering that they're only animals that Ditto never saw before
With that slight edge, i think Gar takes it

 

[Imaginym]

VERY hardly Gar can do something here. The transforms into animals, but i can't see any of them being 7-B or something like it.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut
There's a line where Ditto transforms into base Gar, because yeah, it should be stronger than its jelly self,

Should Garfield be stronger, considering the profile note? As mentioned, Pokemon like Pikachu & Bellsprout are Low 7-B (Bellsprout's says At most Low 7-B, FWIW. Unsure why.) to Garfield's
Tier: Low 7-C, higher as a Werebeast.

That said, Ditto would lead with transforming into him, especially if making use of Impostor ability which makes it Transform as soon as it enters battle. (Unsure if its passive or automatic, or some kind of skill, like it's just locked in, no waiting for order to do so or some kind of awareness while in Poke Ball???)

therefore locking him into Gar's transformations, which Gar can use better, as i see it.
None of them are dummies, but if they're locked to the same transformations which Gar can use better, specially considering that they're only animals that Ditto never saw before
With that slight edge, i think Gar takes it

What about the Stamina matchup, since Ditto's Stamina remains its own even while Transformed?

Garfield has an unjustified Superhuman* rating for his Stamina.

* Nothing against you noninho, you're a great user in this community but why oh why is such a great series possessing of such a bare-bones profile?!

Ditto has this, FWIW:

Stamina: Superhuman (The average Pokemon is hardwired for battle and can go on fighting for a long time despite being injured. Capable of spending a day on foot while fighting hordes of enemies in mystery dungeons with little to no breaks. Can swim between islands and continents with no breaks)



Also, the "animals Ditto hasn't seen before" angle may not hold up well even ignoring the possibility Ditto has seen similar Pokemon, because Ditto has multiple entries about how it can transform into a perfect copy of anything it sees, but it messes up when it ISN'T looking at it, such as when relying on memory &/or when "If the thing it's transforming into isn't right in front of it".

This would suggest, in-universe noted individualistic variation aside, unfamiliar species aren't hard for it to copy, just as long as it sees them.
Though yes, it might not know how to use them as well as BB does, especially with their likely differences against their Pokemon analogues.

 

[Nonynho]

Should Garfield be stronger, considering the profile note? As mentioned, Pokemon like Pikachu & Bellsprout are Low 7-B (Bellsprout's says At most Low 7-B, FWIW. Unsure why.) to Garfield's
Tier: Low 7-C, higher as a Werebeast.

That said, Ditto would lead with transforming into him, especially if making use of Impostor ability which makes it Transform as soon as it enters battle. (Unsure if its passive or automatic, or some kind of skill, like it's just locked in, no waiting for order to do so or some kind of awareness while in Poke Ball???)

Well, AFAIK it's automatic whenever he enters battle, so he should transform into base gar

Garfield has an unjustified Superhuman* rating for his Stamina.

* Nothing against you noninho, you're a great user in this community but why oh why is such a great series possessing of such a bare-bones profile?!

Because i'm veeeeeeeeery busy and focused on helping Ordem Paranormal to get a revamp first, cuz i'm not alone while doing it lol
But yeah, it's a project of mine to rewatch the entire series and reform the verse

What about the Stamina matchup, since Ditto's Stamina remains its own even while Transformed?

Great question. Since, IMO, he can get outperfored by Gar knowing his transformations better, in comparison to Ditto who'll also be locked up to him, i don't think it should matter much, cuz Gar focuses on incapping and, again, is better at doing it due to knowing the animals better than Ditto.

Also, the "animals Ditto hasn't seen before" angle may not hold up well even ignoring the possibility Ditto has seen similar Pokemon, because Ditto has multiple entries about how it can transform into a perfect copy of anything it sees, but it messes up when it ISN'T looking at it, such as when relying on memory &/or when "If the thing it's transforming into isn't right in front of it".

And that's exactly what is happening. Ditto will have the possibility to turn into a Dino, Gorilla and etc because Gar can do it and he copied Gar
He won't be able to transform into "whatever Gar is rn" because he wouldn't have the move Transform anymore
He'd be relying into Gar's ability and not on it's own, making his dominance over the copy very limited, and even if he copies good enough, he won't be able to use it as properly as Gar

 

[Arkansalter2]

I doubt that Ditto has the experience BB has however.

 

[Nonynho]

I doubt that Ditto has the experience BB has however.

Yep
Specially whilst being locked to transform into animals that he's never seen before vs. Gar who's 18 iirc and trains to use each under specific circunstamces.
Not like he's the best fighter that ever lived, but for sure better than poor ditto being all the sudden locked into the animals

i now cast my vote on BB high-low-diff'ing, FRA.

 

[Imaginym]

Well, AFAIK it's automatic whenever he enters battle, so he should transform into base gar

Yeah, but we don't know why, diegetically, it happens automatically. Is it because it's really fast? Did it watch the battle from the Poke Ball (In concealment in the wild?) & Transform in advance of entering battle? Is it some weird reaction some Ditto have to Transform without thinking?

FWIW, Impostor's official flavour text is:

Generation V
It transforms itself into the Pokémon it is facing.

Generation VI
The Pokémon transforms itself into the Pokémon it's facing.

Generation VII
The Pokémon transforms itself into the Pokémon it's facing.

Generation VIII
The Pokémon transforms itself into the Pokémon it's facing.

Generation IX
The Pokémon transforms itself into the Pokémon it's facing.

So maybe it's voluntary???

Because i'm veeeeeeeeery busy and focused on helping Ordem Paranormal to get a revamp first, cuz i'm not alone while doing it lol
But yeah, it's a project of mine to rewatch the entire series and reform the verse

Ahhh. Thanks for the answer, good luck!

Great question. Since, IMO, he can get outperfored by Gar knowing his transformations better, in comparison to Ditto who'll also be locked up to him, i don't think it should matter much, cuz Gar focuses on incapping and, again, is better at doing it due to knowing the animals better than Ditto.

I disagree that it'll be locked. I'm pretty sure Ditto have de-transformed in the anime.
Also, entries:

Silver	Its transformation ability is perfect. However, if made to laugh, it can't maintain its disguise.

Sword	It can reconstitute its entire cellular structure to change into what it sees, but it returns to normal when it relaxes.

Voluntary reversion seems very possible for Ditto.

And that's exactly what is happening. Ditto will have the possibility to turn into a Dino, Gorilla and etc because Gar can do it and he copied Gar
He won't be able to transform into "whatever Gar is rn" because he wouldn't have the move Transform anymore
He'd be relying into Gar's ability and not on it's own, making his dominance over the copy very limited, and even if he copies good enough, he won't be able to use it as properly as Gar

....I maybe should have put some of my post above in response to this. No offense meant. Just lamenting my lack of my own post organization here.

But yeah, Garfield probably is very skilled, even if it is TTTAS Garf.
Likely has experience, too. (How long was he active?)

Do we know of any Stamina feats for that BB?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

What Pokémon does this Ditto have in its memory? That's a pretty serious question considering depending on what it is, that could royally screw over Beast Boy's chances of winning.

 

[Imaginym]

What Pokémon does this Ditto have in its memory? That's a pretty serious question considering depending on what it is, that could royally screw over Beast Boy's chances of winning.

Based on the profiles notes I posted earlier, which I'm reposting here in case they're helpful.)....:

• While inside the game it can transform into any Pokémon and copy exactly the stats, powers, attacks and appearance except the HP of the opponent, it is argued that Ditto rarely transforms into an opponent weaker than itself in combat. It is suggested that thread starters state the starting level/tier of Ditto. For reference, the current tier of Pikachu (one of the most notable starter Pokémon) is at most Low 7-B. If the thread starter wishes to set the floor tier of Ditto, the thread starter should state that in the starting thread and Pikachu will be the floor tier. However, the ceiling tier of Ditto should limit to the tier of Mew is 5-B.
• While it is stated in the Pokédex that a Pokémon can transform into any Pokémon according to its memories, it is also stated that "if it tries to transform itself into something by relying on its memory, this Pokémon manages to get details wrong". Unless the starter stated in the versus thread that it can transform into any Pokémon according to its memories, it should only be able to transform to any opponent or objects it can see in the battlefield.

So yeah.

Beast Boy vs Ditto

Arena: Isla Nublar

Both start 100 meters away out of sight

Ditto has already transformed

Do you have something you wish to say regarding the matter of "Unless the starter stated in the versus thread that it can transform into any Pokémon according to its memories, it should only be able to transform to any opponent or objects it can see in the battlefield."?

(Yes, you specified already transformed, but as previously argued, there's evidence indicating Ditto can un-Transform.)

 

[Nonynho]

Voluntary reversion seems very possible for Ditto.

I think your interpretation is quite wrong here
The dex entries are stating quite clearly that the un-transforming happens whenever he fells either relaxed or laughing, but i don't think Gar could make ditto feel any of those on our typical fighting scene.
Also, nothing indicates that the reversions those dex entries speak about are voluntary.

So maybe it's voluntary???

I think it's just what he typically does whenever he finds himself in a fighting scene, cuz we don't typically see a ditto not transform instantly. If it's not automatic/passive, it's what he'd do cuz...he always does it

Do we know of any Stamina feats for that BB?

We know of fights that lasted a great time and that he gets injured from time to time, but none specific, no.

....I maybe should have put some of my post above in response to this. No offense meant. Just lamenting my lack of my own post organization here.

Nah, it's not a problem at all
Thing is, we still need to take a grasp on ditto voluntarily untransforming to see that argument get invalidated

 

[Imaginym]

I think your interpretation is quite wrong here
The dex entries are stating quite clearly that the un-transforming happens whenever he fells either relaxed or laughing, but i don't think Gar could make ditto feel any of those on our typical fighting scene.
Also, nothing indicates that the reversions those dex entries speak about are voluntary.

Relaxing your own self doesn't seem like a thing it can do?
Also, IIRC, in the Alola games, there was a Ditto that impersonated a human officer, which reveals itself, reverts & flees when interacted with.

& doing some quick checking, there's an anime episode where a Ditto gets loose in the Aether Foundation & transforms & un-transforms to hide while Ash & co. try to find it:

Deceiving Appearances!

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

Ditto is 1 of the "7" Exeggcute "eggs" (Actually seeds/nuts.) here; Exeggcute usually only has 6.

Said Ditto un-Transforming.

The same Ditto, shortly after, impersonating a Jigglypuff.

Shortly after, un-Transforming.

It later turns into a Psyduck, Quagsire, as well as an Alolan Vulpix. I'm not sure how much it laughed or relaxed, but it didn't go into a ball nor get fainted.

& in an earlier episode, a trainer's partner Ditto:

Here, it's a Castform.

Reverted.

We know of fights that lasted a great time and that he gets injured from time to time, but none specific, no.

A long time? How about the majority of a day, considering the Stamina justification Ditto has?

Nah, it's not a problem at all
Thing is, we still need to take a grasp on ditto voluntarily untransforming to see that argument get invalidated

Agreed.
Didn't go over all the eps with Ditto, mostly because haste ("Haste makes waste", they say, though....), but I hope what I posted is helpful in this matter.

 

[Arkansalter2]

We know of fights that lasted a great time and that he gets injured from time to time, but none specific, no.

I mean he did get back up and shitslam adonis as a werebeast but WB is only for when gar is bloodlusted. Looking at youtube, I don't see much of anything substantial.

 

[Nonynho]

Reverted.

Seems enough, yes. TY for the effort
Then now we're facing another difficulty: What is ditto going to do when he un-transforms after becoming base gar?
If he becomes another pokémon by memory, he's screwed
If he becomes any animal Gar currently is, we're basically back into what we were speaking, about this being Gar's territory and being a big difficulty for ditto

Agreed.
Didn't go over all the eps with Ditto, mostly because haste ("Haste makes waste", they say, though....), but I hope what I posted is helpful in this matter.

Oh yes it is helpful and more than enough. Once again thank you for the effort

A long time?

Looking at youtube, I don't see much of anything substantial.

I'll only have a proper answer for his stamina whenever i get through all the series, sorry y'all

 

[Imaginym]

Seems enough, yes. TY for the effort
Then now we're facing another difficulty: What is ditto going to do when he un-transforms after becoming base gar?
If he becomes another pokémon by memory, he's screwed
If he becomes any animal Gar currently is, we're basically back into what we were speaking, about this being Gar's territory and being a big difficulty for ditto

Yeah, we'll want OP ( @Kiryu2012 ) to weigh in as the earlier twice-quoted profiles notes recommend doing, to see about how able to turn into other Pokemon Ditto is here.
& that assumes Ditto can't just use Struggle.
Also, base Ditto could have either double Speed (Quick Powder, 50% to be held.), or 1.5x Defenses (Metal Powder, 5% to be held, 100% if it's a Ditto from an original Gen 1 game transferred to a future game.) while in base form.
....Assuming base Ditto isn't Unknown.

Oh yes it is helpful and more than enough. Once again thank you for the effort

Yay! Glad to know it! Thanks!

I'll only have a proper answer for his stamina whenever i get through all the series, sorry y'all

No worries.

Guess there's some waiting to do, in part because research & because OP clarifications here, lol.

 

[Nonynho]

Yeah, we'll want OP ( @Kiryu2012 ) to weigh in as the earlier twice-quoted profiles notes recommend doing, to see about how able to turn into other Pokemon Ditto is here.

If it's an ability of his, won't the principle that it cannot be restricted be activated here? Therefore being any pokémon between the range you proposed?
i mean, he'll do it by memory, so it is very likely that not even a mewtwo is helping him today

& that assumes Ditto can't just use Struggle.

If we're using struggle here, he'd have to transform 10 times before, no?
He'd also not deal a lot, with 48 base ATK and a 50 base power-move
And considering the newest generation, he could only use it 4 times before fainting

Also, base Ditto could have either double Speed (Quick Powder, 50% to be held.), or 1.5x Defenses (Metal Powder, 5% to be held, 100% if it's a Ditto from an original Gen 1 game transferred to a future game.) while in base form.

Quick Powder is more probable so let's go with it (since they can only hold one item)

 

[Imaginym]

If it's an ability of his, won't the principle that it cannot be restricted be activated here? Therefore being any pokémon between the range you proposed?
i mean, he'll do it by memory, so it is very likely that not even a mewtwo is helping him today

The notes say:

• While inside the game it can transform into any Pokémon and copy exactly the stats, powers, attacks and appearance except the HP of the opponent, it is argued that Ditto rarely transforms into an opponent weaker than itself in combat. It is suggested that thread starters state the starting level/tier of Ditto. For reference, the current tier of Pikachu (one of the most notable starter Pokémon) is at most Low 7-B. If the thread starter wishes to set the floor tier of Ditto, the thread starter should state that in the starting thread and Pikachu will be the floor tier. However, the ceiling tier of Ditto should limit to the tier of Mew is 5-B.
• While it is stated in the Pokédex that a Pokémon can transform into any Pokémon according to its memories, it is also stated that "if it tries to transform itself into something by relying on its memory, this Pokémon manages to get details wrong". Unless the starter stated in the versus thread that it can transform into any Pokémon according to its memories, it should only be able to transform to any opponent or objects it can see in the battlefield.

& Struggle is just a vain struggle. Just approach & flop-slap. I'm not 100% sure what it looks like, but there's probably footage of it in an official game; Ditto would just have to do what it does in the attack animation used for Struggle.
(There's also the "Regular Attack" from Mystery Dungeon, which any Pokemon can use without a move, but unsure we give Pokemon that outside MD.)

He'd also not deal a lot, with 48 base ATK and a 50 base power-move

Base stats are not a reliable metric. Base power is barely better, since unlike base stats, BP is shown to players, whereas base stats are hidden from them.

For example:

Teddiursa (Pokémon)

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

Bagon (Pokémon)

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Whiscash_(Pokémon)

Bagon, the first stage of a pseudolegendary line, smashes boulders to pieces with its head & has base 75 ATK. Whiscash, a fully evolved 2nd stage Pokemon, makes "tremor-like quakes" that can go over around 3 miles (I forget the original metric values.) & can learn Magnitude & Earthquake by level up, & has 78 ATK. Teddiursa has no such feats & is stronger than both of them, at 80 base attack.

Rhyhorn & its 85 ATK can destroy tall buildings, & its mountain-busting feat/statement is a big part of first-stage scaling:

Legends: Arceus	Ludicrously strong—when it butts heads with a mountain, it is the mountain that shatters. But its short legs struggle with turns, and it is incapable of stopping unless it collides with something.

Meanwhile, Swampert with its base ATK of 110 can "only", noted as doing so "while swimming" (Whether that makes it easier because Water-type or a flex to show it can do a strenuous activity like swimming at the same time of the feat without issue, as some other Water-types have their swimming stamina boasted.), has it stated that it [Swampert] can, swim, while "towing a large ship".

At 120, we have Arceus, the creator & God-tier of the verse, if ATK even matters for it.

At 125, we have Cranidos, a not-fully-evolved fossil Pokemon only found in present day because human-made science revives it (through its fossil.) from the (effectively) dead, & which was known for headbutting, with its best feat being breaking down trees & that it "used its skillful headbutts to combat Aerodactyl".

At 120 again, there's Grimmsnarl, which says, in its first Pokedex entry...:

Sword	With the hair wrapped around its body helping to enhance its muscles, this Pokémon can overwhelm even Machamp.

& Machamp? 130 base ATK.

Yellow	One arm alone can move mountains. Using all four arms, this Pokémon fires off awesome punches.

& yet, check out THIS feat of Crabominable, with its base 132 ATK!

Ultra Sun	It stores coldness in its pincers and pummels its foes. It can even smash thick walls of ice to bits!

TOTALLY makes mountain-busting look like nothing, right?

Not even the highest base ATK Pokemon that isn't a Mega, Legendary or Legendary adjacent.

I'm sure there's examples for the other stats. Like Linoone & Dodrio having different speed feats while both having base 100 speed, but then Dodrio got a base stat buff to 110 Speed in Gen 7 without its feat changing. (& Dodrio's was the slower feat, for that matter.)

Base stats are NOT a reliable metric.

Apologies if you minded me going into so much detail on this.

Quick Powder is more probable so let's go with it (since they can only hold one item)

Well, it's 50% it has Quick Powder. IDK if the chances stack, so 55% (50% for Quick Powder, 5% for Metal Powder.), or if they're like, part of the same percentage.
But no item is also possible.

 

[Nonynho]

The notes say:

And by reading them that i think what i pointed out
-OP can't dictate which pokémon ditto can remember about nor restrict it by any means
-it won't help much cuz his memory is straight up a weakness of his

Base stats are NOT a reliable metric.

Apologies if you minded me going into so much detail on this.

It was pretty clear to me; You being clear on this specific way just made me think that this is likely a good blog to be added to the pokémon verse

& Struggle is just a vain struggle. Just approach & flop-slap. I'm not 100% sure what it looks like, but there's probably footage of it in an official game; Ditto would just have to do what it does in the attack animation used for Struggle.
(There's also the "Regular Attack" from Mystery Dungeon, which any Pokemon can use without a move, but unsure we give Pokemon that outside MD.)

i also dunno about MD stuff, so let's consider he can only use Struggle.
It is remarkably bad on purpose and damages the user in such way that he gets 1/4 of its HP lost, on the current generation. And i don't think base ditto can get Gar defeated in 4 hits before knocking himself out

Well, it's 50% it has Quick Powder

Standard equipment, but he can only hold one
50% > 5% > 100% if transferred from gen 1
That's why i think it's ok to consider he has a Quick Powder as standard equip

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

This is why I don't like using Ditto in Versus Threads, its entire shtick is entirely down to the personal headcanon of whoever is making the thread essentially because of its extremely arbitrary rules.

 

[Imaginym]

And by reading them that i think what i pointed out
-OP can't dictate which pokémon ditto can remember about nor restrict it by any means
-it won't help much cuz his memory is straight up a weakness of his

Yeah, though the wording is "gets details wrong". We don't know if it's power level, though it could be. Ditto has another entry saying (Not specifically in regards to the transform by memory thing.) that "The quality of the duplicate depends on the individual.".
Maybe metamorphosis-by-memory Ditto gets a bunch of polka dots on its back, or there's a bullseye on its rear end, or it grows a finger & a thumb in the shape of an "L", on its forehead....
It's not clear what details it'd get wrong.

It was pretty clear to me; You being clear on this specific way just made me think that this is likely a good blog to be added to the pokémon verse

Thanks! It could be a neat project.

i also dunno about MD stuff, so let's consider he can only use Struggle.

FWIW, Struggle wasn't always 25% of max HP recoil.
In Gen 1, its recoil was half of damage dealt, in Gens 2 & 3 it was 25% of damage dealt, & Gen 4 onwards, it was 25% of user's max HP.
But odds are, I'd assume the recoil is dubiously diegetic. It's a "vain struggle", but why should it hurt one's self to struggle THAT much? Not to mention, the recoil was likely upped from the then 25% of max HP recoil because of Wobbuffet Leftovers, where the healing far outpaced the Struggle damage & two Wobbuffet would trap each other with Shadow Tag & a lack of direct attacking moves.

It is remarkably bad on purpose and damages the user in such way that he gets 1/4 of its HP lost, on the current generation. And i don't think base ditto can get Gar defeated in 4 hits before knocking himself out

Yeah, but I'd assume it's that way for Game Mechanics. To avoid stalemates, Struggle is also typeless, ignores accuracy & hits through Wonder Guard, yet not Protect.

Standard equipment, but he can only hold one
50% > 5% > 100% if transferred from gen 1
That's why i think it's ok to consider he has a Quick Powder as standard equip

Fair enough.

So what are the statistics values of the combatants' scaling points?

 

[Nonynho]

FWIW, Struggle wasn't always 25% of max HP recoil.

I know, been playing since 2015 :>
I even had to open bulbapedia to know what the current gen uses for the move (25% is SO MUCH)

It's not clear what details it'd get wrong.

That's a pretty nice-sized problem
But i can still use this argument to get something palpable to this discussion: Whatever the failure is, it's a show that ditto still won't transform into something cool and that he knows how to use better than whatever Gar's using

Yeah, but I'd assume it's that way for Game Mechanics.

Me too, but since recoil moves are a thing, then i don't think struggle can be regarded as a game mechanic more than it can be as a recoil move

So what are the statistics values of the combatants' scaling points?

We have no reliable metric to estimate a value for ditto in basically anything

Speed feat BB scales to
AP feat basically the entire TT verse scales to as of now

 

[Imaginym]

I know, been playing since 2015 :>
I even had to open bulbapedia to know what the current gen uses for the move (25% is SO MUCH)


That's a pretty nice-sized problem
But i can still use this argument to get something palpable to this discussion: Whatever the failure is, it's a show that ditto still won't transform into something cool and that he knows how to use better than whatever Gar's using

My point is, how do we know it'll be what it gets wrong that's influential to the match?
Ditto copies cells, for all we know, it gives its transformed state a cellular issue that wouldn't manifest until years later in that form's life span, no?

Also, I'm not sure what you mean "a show that ditto still won't transform into something cool and that he knows how to use better than whatever Gar's using"?
You mean that transforming into a remembered Pokemon would indicate to Garfield that it knows that Pokemon form better &/or is confident that species is stronger than Garfield's form?
Won't transform into something cool?

Me too, but since recoil moves are a thing, then i don't think struggle can be regarded as a game mechanic more than it can be as a recoil move

I would argue its recoil is a game mechanic, or at least it being so extreme is. You probably don't knock yourself out with 5 "attempts" (Whatever 1 use is.) of a futile struggle. The recoil is so high specifically to end stalemates, it's not a life-risking tackle, an extreme headbutt, covering yourself in fire/electricity & ramming or flying at super high speeds to bravely slam into the foe.

We have no reliable metric to estimate a value for ditto in basically anything

Fair.

Speed feat BB scales to

Oh yeah, Speed isn't equalized. Which end was accepted, though?
(Also, lol, Ditto's at double unknown speed.)

AP feat basically the entire TT verse scales to as of now

Thanks!

• While inside the game it can transform into any Pokémon and copy exactly the stats, powers, attacks and appearance except the HP of the opponent, it is argued that Ditto rarely transforms into an opponent weaker than itself in combat. It is suggested that thread starters state the starting level/tier of Ditto. For reference, the current tier of Pikachu (one of the most notable starter Pokémon) is at most Low 7-B. If the thread starter wishes to set the floor tier of Ditto, the thread starter should state that in the starting thread and Pikachu will be the floor tier. However, the ceiling tier of Ditto should limit to the tier of Mew is 5-B.

We could interpret the note as saying that "weaker than itself" means Ditto is Low 7-B in base, though IDK if that's correct.

 

[Kiryu2012]

Do you have something you wish to say regarding the matter of "Unless the starter stated in the versus thread that it can transform into any Pokémon according to its memories, it should only be able to transform to any opponent or objects it can see in the battlefield."?

(Yes, you specified already transformed, but as previously argued, there's evidence indicating Ditto can un-Transform.)

Main intent was the latter.

 

[Imaginym]

Main intent was the latter.

Thank you very much for your response!
Please clarify: Would you like for yourself, &/or me or neither to edit the Opening Post to account for that newly clarified stipulation?

 

[Kiryu2012]

Thank you very much for your response!
Please clarify: Would you like for yourself, &/or me or neither to edit the Opening Post to account for that newly clarified stipulation?

Already edited it in.

 

[Imaginym]

Already edited it in.

Thank you very much!

I guess that means I'm waiting to find out BB's Stamina matchup & whatnot for this.

BTW, thank you for arranging this, & @noninho for being such an engaging fellow debater!

 

[Nonynho]

My point is, how do we know it'll be what it gets wrong that's influential to the match?

Mine is: even if we suppose what's wrong is not influential directly in the match
the fact that he basically always gets something wrong whenever doing the transform by memory, signalizes that he ain't as talented in the usage of said transform as Gar is with his
That was my entire point before

I would argue its recoil is a game mechanic, or at least it being so extreme is.

I can understand it, because PP is the regular usage, so using Struggle is by using all of your energy left to try and beat the enemy, an energy you shouldn't regularly be using. By using this concept or something like it, it's pretty understandable that you're passing out after around 5 attempts of doing it lol

Oh yeah, Speed isn't equalized. Which end was accepted, though?

With everyone in the verse scaling to Relativistic and no response given, just accepting the calc, high-end can be assumed, therefore 262.905.894,1 m/s lol

anyway, Ditto is not scaling to that by himself so speed should be equalized, forgor to say

 

[Nonynho]

I guess that means I'm waiting to find out BB's Stamina matchup & whatnot for this.

we can agree that it'll be a problem for ditto, due to struggle being a part of our conversation

 

[Kiryu2012]

Bump. Speed has been equalized.

 

[Kiryu2012]

Bump.

 

[Bobsican]

Can ditto immediately transform after already transforming?

Yes

I do have an entire WIP blog about moves and abilities, but I bring that up as Transform is already covered in-depth, which seems relevant here.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump

 

[Nonynho]

tbf i still think this is a w for BB