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Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc

A week of research and gathering scans, most likely. The most controversial stuff involving Hypnosis and Telekinesis is already handled, so it'd be more of a matter of compiling everything else for that type's moves.
 
Seems like Horizons might take place in the games universe (either that or the events of the games happened in Hz universe) :

 
Prime2024 said:
Seems like Horizons might take place in the games universe (either that or the events of the games happened in Hz universe) :

Click to expand...

I didn't do the Scarlet and Violet DLC, but it sounds more like some events from the games also existing in the anime which applies to every season lol
 
Hypertornado099 said:
I didn't do the Scarlet and Violet DLC, but it sounds more like some events from the games also existing in the anime which applies to every season lol
Click to expand...
The DLC is a major event done by the protagonist, it's also implied that the main game also happened, it must be the reason why HZ is doing its own story, or why we don't see Miraidon or why Penny, Nemona, Arven are already best friends with Penny working with the pokemon league, because the entire game happened
 
Prime2024 said:
The DLC is a major event done by the protagonist, it's also implied that the main game also happened, it must be the reason why HZ is doing its own story, or why we don't see Miraidon or why Penny, Nemona, Arven are already best friends with Penny working with the pokemon league, because the entire game happened
Click to expand...
... or maybe some events of the game happened in the Horizons anime, not necessarily the entire thing
 
In Z-A’s Mewtwo bonus sidequest, Mable calls Mewtwo an “extremely dangerous Pokémon” and is baffled that the MC wants to try and fight it. This is set after the main story, so sounds like a Mewtwo upscale /j
 
Can someone gimme a quick tl;dr on how Pokémon canon works on this site? I plan on contributing to the verse now (mainly the manga but I may also work on the anime and some of the games as well)
 
Pardon my post being unrelated to the recent topic, please, but....




Psychic Jaclyn appears in Hoenn's Cycling Road.... & there's another Psychic Jaclyn, who appears in Green Path, Sevii Islands in FireRed/LeafGreen.

IDK all of Hoenn Jaclyn's dialogue, but....

Pre-battle, she says:
"...Huh? I was envisioning my house, but this is where I TELEPORT?"
On defeat she says "Big boo-boo!" & post-battle, she says "I need to focus so I can TELEPORT properly to my house!"

Both Jaclyn are named Mariko in Japanese, & Hoenn Jaclyn has a male level 16 Abra while FR/LG Jaclyn has a male level 49 Kadabra as her final Pokemon, & both are of the Psychic trainer class.
It seems like they could be the same person.

So.... It's not clear where Jaclyn was, but there's some stuff suggesting FR/LG & Hoenn take place at the same time, though this would suggest there was some time in-between, since Jaclyn has more Pokemon & the 1 she did have ostensibly levelled up & evolved in FR/LG. (That or game mechanics/game balance stuff.)

This could mean FR/LG takes place SLIGHTLY after Hoenn. (& in how little time Jaclyn upgraded her team could be an indication of how quickly Pokemon teams can improve for non-player characters.)

Perhaps more notably, if Jaclyn's Hoenn self is her earlier self, & there was little time, & she ends up in the middle of the ocean on a remote island, maybe her home is in Hoenn?
Even if she was teleporting from Kanto or another Sevii Island, could this be like, a teleport of hundreds of meters, or even kilometers for humans? (& considering a lot of human Psychics are often outclassed or matched by their Pokemon, an indicator for what Pokemon can do.)



"Imaginym, it's been a month!"
Hardware issues. I want to say more, but there's things I want to figure out first, & until then, I'm not certain I should do VSBW things that are too intense for my computer, nor just allow myself to go trying to go wild & as active as I can be with little to no concern.
 
Quick question, why is magnemite MHS+ exactly? The profile states it can react to other magnemite, but that doesn't tell me anything.
 
Delusionaltx2 said:
Quick question, why is magnemite MHS+ exactly? The profile states it can react to other magnemite, but that doesn't tell me anything.
Click to expand...
In part because multiple-species-wide-stage-based scaling (In part due to it being a large-scale implementable system.) & because dodging electricity-based attacks.

There's probably specific feats (Like in the anime, I bet.) of lower-staged Pokemon evading moves that should grant a speed rating higher than what we grant them, like a first stage dodging a light based move like Power Gem, Flash Cannon, Mirror Shot, Solar Beam, Dazzling Gleam, etc.
 
Imaginym said:
In part because multiple-species-wide-stage-based scaling (In part due to it being a large-scale implementable system.) & because dodging electricity-based attacks.
Click to expand...
Shouldn't electricity be just supersonic+?
Imaginym said:
There's probably specific feats (Like in the anime, I bet.) of lower-staged Pokemon evading moves that should grant a speed rating higher than what we grant them, like a first stage dodging a light based move like Power Gem, Flash Cannon, Mirror Shot, Solar Beam, Dazzling Gleam, etc.
Click to expand...
I was mainly asking because I wanted to start modernizing the profiles for red and also make a profile for blue in the adventures manga

Early reds bulbasaur can restrain machoke who are listed as mhs+
 
Delusionaltx2 said:
Shouldn't electricity be just supersonic+?
Click to expand...
vsbattles.fandom.com

Lightning Feats

Many fictional characters make use of attacks or equipment that produces lightning or electricity. As such it useful to know how to quantify lightning feats. Most electricity in fiction is not real lightning. Often it is supernatural in nature, and is possibly not even electricity. Therefore...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

"What is real lightning?​

Most electricity in fiction is not real lightning. Often it is supernatural in nature, and is possibly not even electricity. Therefore lightning is only accepted as such under certain circumstances.

  • Cloud-to-ground lightning is considered to be real lightning, as long there is nothing suggesting otherwise.
  • Lightning that has demonstrated at a minimum a few properties that real lightning has, and significantly less properties that lightning shouldn't have, can be considered real. Some examples of favourable properties are: making muscles of affected beings contract, having an (electro)magnetic field, being shown to actually move with a speed similar to lightning, flowing through conducting materials, the character being able to manipulate real electricity or electromagnetism in general, generating ozone or causing electrolysis.
Additionally, for calculations that involve lightning speed, one has to consider that the speed of real electricity can change due to a variety of factors, but for practical purposes, concerning attacks that are electricity-based, if they display power comparable to that of natural lightning, they should be considered to move at a comparable speed. It is required to show that the electricity carries an energy of at least 1.6 billion Joules or a voltage of at least 100 million Volts in order to qualify.

Lightning Dodging​

One of the most important speed feats is dodging or reacting to lightning. The following is supposed to provide some short explanations on how fast a character should be ranked through these feats.[1][2][3]

Scientific basis​

The speed of lightning can vary mostly in the range of 1.0-14×10^5 m/s. For the purpose of calculating speed feats, we use the average lightning speed of 4.4×10^5 m/s (Mach 1282.798834), which is suggested by this study. Similar studies have found average speeds within the same order of magnitude, albeit lower.

The clouds that usually cause thunderstorms build about 200m to 4000m above the ground.[4] In this wiki, 2000m is the standard assumption."

The move Thunder has been shown as being cloud-to-ground lightning in at least 1 move animation plus the anime, IIRC, & the "electricity with power equivalent to real lightning's 1.6 billion joules is sufficient basis" to assume it goes at the speed of real lightning.
Baby Pokemon like Cleffa scale to 2,601,500,000 joules, thanks to Cleffa's feat of arriving to the planet via meteor, with Minior, which also arrives by Minior & Cleffa being close, being found at meteor fall sites multiple times & other info indicating they arrived that way.

The approval for the calc:
"AidenBrooks999·10/2/2018

I prefer the low-end

But mostly cause the scaling in the game could be... Off.

You know, given some of the proportion due to Game Mechanics

Antvasima·10/2/2018

Okay. I suppose that this can probably be used then."



Though the calc is a bit old, so maybe it could stand a revisit?
Nonetheless, 2.601,500,000 is more than 1.6 billion, & Pokemon can harm each other, meaning, since to be able to survive an amount of energy without perishing from it, equal & opposite force means they must be able to survive outputting that amount of energy (Because equal & opposite force; When you throw a punch, you exert equivalent force on yourself. If your own punch was too strong, you'd break your arm, & Pokemon don't do that.), that indicates Cleffa can hit with greater energy than a Lightning Bolt's 1.6 billion joules, & if a Pichu or Elekid can tank a Cleffa's Tackle or Pound, then Pichu or Elekid can withstand outputting that. & for others to harm Cleffa, they'd have to be able to withstand the equivalent force of exerting the same force.
So if they are able to harm those like Cleffa, they have to be doing force/energy output that high & withstanding it.

Thus, if I understand the standards right, we can assume Pokemon electricity, in basically all cases, can be assumed to have power & therefore speed higher than lightning bolts.

TL;DR - Baby Pokemon Tackle hits you harder than being struck by lightning.
Delusionaltx2 said:
I was mainly asking because I wanted to start modernizing the profiles for red and also make a profile for blue in the adventures manga
Click to expand...
Interesting, good luck!
Delusionaltx2 said:
Early reds bulbasaur can restrain machoke who are listed as mhs+
Click to expand...
Besides possible Plot-Induced Stupidity, it could also be just Red trained his Pokemon better. Pokemon can become much stronger via training, as is a necessary & established part of Pokemon games like:
In Black/White where the player character's team beats N's Zekrom/Reshiram.
In Ultra Sun/Moon games where they defeat Ultra Necrozma in battle. (Plus Cyrus of Team Rainbow Rocket with at least 1 Creation Trio member, IIRC.).
In Sword/Shield where they can damage & contribute to defeating Eternatamax Eternatus.
In Scarlet/Violet's The Teal Mask (Which can be done before doing S/V's main storyline, "The Way Home", & in fact, right after starting at the academy for the tutorial.) & then yet go out & beat The Loyal 3 that Pecharunt empowered as well as Ogerpon in all 4 of its forms in succession.
In Legends: Arceus where they go & beat Giratina in both of its forms in succession. (& battling Arceus, if we assume that scales to Pokemon. Doesn't it happen in dreams?)
Defeating The Paradox Pokemon due to Area Zero being off-limits to those who aren't Champion Rank, is also notable, & in S/V, there's story dialogue about how dangerous 5 & 6 Star Tera Raids are, so doing those are is probably notable.
As well as Terapagos, which is the source of the Terastal Phenomenon, powering the crystals that lead to Wild Tera Pokemon, yet the players defeat it even with it in its Teraform Zero Stellar Tera Form. & FWIW, Terapagos broke a Master Ball, which is a feat of some sort due to Gen IV dialogue indicating the Red Chain had to be used due to it being concluded by Team Galactic that the CT members (Presumably, the avatars of them rather than the true forms of them, similar to how the Arceus the P:LA player gets to use rather than the real Arceus.) would not be able to use their full power if captured in Master Balls; Either there's a limiting effect to catch sufficiently powerful Pokemon, or the MB can only contain a certain, but very high amount of power, which Terapagos exceeded (Or PIS.), which might put it around CT Avatar.
Plus they don't NEED to defeat the Wild Rogue Megas without Mega Evolving in Z-A, but they can do so.


Point is, our profiles use wild Pokemon (Because behaviour & consistent tiering.) without trainers because a trainer can make their Pokemon WAY stronger than typical for the species.
& under some assumptions, the protagonist might not even catch/obtain non-mandatory Pokemon, so they could be doing this with say, starter of game plus things like G/S/C Togepi, the Sycamore Starter in X/Y, Tutorial Lechonk in S/V, among others, etc.



Sorry if this post was unpleasantly long.
 
Last edited:
Imaginym said:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Lightning Feats

Many fictional characters make use of attacks or equipment that produces lightning or electricity. As such it useful to know how to quantify lightning feats. Most electricity in fiction is not real lightning. Often it is supernatural in nature, and is possibly not even electricity. Therefore...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

"What is real lightning?​

Most electricity in fiction is not real lightning. Often it is supernatural in nature, and is possibly not even electricity. Therefore lightning is only accepted as such under certain circumstances.

  • Cloud-to-ground lightning is considered to be real lightning, as long there is nothing suggesting otherwise.
  • Lightning that has demonstrated at a minimum a few properties that real lightning has, and significantly less properties that lightning shouldn't have, can be considered real. Some examples of favourable properties are: making muscles of affected beings contract, having an (electro)magnetic field, being shown to actually move with a speed similar to lightning, flowing through conducting materials, the character being able to manipulate real electricity or electromagnetism in general, generating ozone or causing electrolysis.
Additionally, for calculations that involve lightning speed, one has to consider that the speed of real electricity can change due to a variety of factors, but for practical purposes, concerning attacks that are electricity-based, if they display power comparable to that of natural lightning, they should be considered to move at a comparable speed. It is required to show that the electricity carries an energy of at least 1.6 billion Joules or a voltage of at least 100 million Volts in order to qualify.

Lightning Dodging​

One of the most important speed feats is dodging or reacting to lightning. The following is supposed to provide some short explanations on how fast a character should be ranked through these feats.[1][2][3]

Scientific basis​

The speed of lightning can vary mostly in the range of 1.0-14×105 m/s. For the purpose of calculating speed feats, we use the average lightning speed of 4.4×105 m/s (Mach 1282.798834), which is suggested by this study. Similar studies have found average speeds within the same order of magnitude, albeit lower.

The clouds that usually cause thunderstorms build about 200m to 4000m above the ground.[4] In this wiki, 2000m is the standard assumption."

The move Thunder has been shown as being cloud-to-ground lightning in at least 1 move animation plus the anime, IIRC, & the "electricity with power equivalent to real lightning's 1.6 billion joules is sufficient basis" to assume it goes at the speed of real lightning.
Baby Pokemon like Cleffa scale to 2,601,500,000 joules, thanks to Cleffa's feat of arriving to the planet via meteor, with Minior, which also arrives by Minior & Cleffa being close, being found at meteor fall sites multiple times & other info indicating they arrived that way.

The approval for the calc:
"AidenBrooks999·10/2/2018

I prefer the low-end

But mostly cause the scaling in the game could be... Off.

You know, given some of the proportion due to Game Mechanics

Antvasima·10/2/2018

Okay. I suppose that this can probably be used then."



Though the calc is a bit old, so maybe it could stand a revisit?
Nonetheless, 2.601,500,000 is more than 1.6 billion, & Pokemon can harm each other, meaning, since to be able to survive an amount of energy without perishing from it, equal & opposite force means they must be able to survive outputting that amount of energy (Because equal & opposite force; When you throw a punch, you exert equivalent force on yourself. If your own punch was too strong, you'd break your arm, & Pokemon don't do that.), that indicates Cleffa can hit with greater energy than a Lightning Bolt's 1.6 billion joules, & if a Pichu or Elekid can tank a Cleffa's Tackle or Pound, then Pichu or Elekid can withstand outputting that. & for others to harm Cleffa, they'd have to be able to withstand the equivalent force of exerting the same force.
So if they are able to harm those like Cleffa, they have to be doing force/energy output that high & withstanding it.

Thus, if I understand the standards right, we can assume Pokemon electricity, in basically all cases, can be assumed to have power & therefore speed higher than lightning bolts.

TL;DR - Baby Pokemon Tackle hits you harder than being struck by lightning.
Click to expand...
So basically, the electricity that Pokémon scale to have more than enough voltage for it to be considered lightning?
Imaginym said:
Interesting, good luck!
Click to expand...
Thank you
Imaginym said:
Besides possible Plot-Induced Stupidity, it could also be just Red trained his Pokemon better. Pokemon can become much stronger via training, as is a necessary & established part of Pokemon games like:
Click to expand...
I'm aware of this. I'm just asking because when I was trying to put in the speed of his Pokémon in my sandbox, I was confused whether or not I should put Supersonic+ with his Pokémon or MHs+ with his Pokémon, but yeah, I assumed since Red at this point is already established to be an experienced trainer that his Bulbasaur is just built different

Actually his bulbasaur comes from prof oak but I believe he was also a trainer so it shouldn't matter
Imaginym said:
Sorry if this post was unpleasantly long.
Click to expand...
No thats fine thank you for the clarification
 
Delusionaltx2 said:
So basically, the electricity that Pokémon scale to have more than enough voltage for it to be considered lightning?
Click to expand...
In terms of speed due to matching or exceeding the power of lightning. The move Thunder is known to depict real/cloud-to-ground lightning on at least 2 canon occasions, IIRC, but not all Electric-type moves necessarily qualify as lightning.
However, not all Pokemon (Like some of low enough evolutionary stages, &/or early stage bug Pokemon, Baby Pokemon & exceptionally weak Pokemon like Magikarp.) may scale to even lower speed values like sound-dodging related values.
Delusionaltx2 said:
Thank you

I'm aware of this. I'm just asking because when I was trying to put in the speed of his Pokémon in my sandbox, I was confused whether or not I should put Supersonic+ with his Pokémon or MHs+ with his Pokémon, but yeah, I assumed since Red at this point is already established to be an experienced trainer that his Bulbasaur is just built different

Actually his bulbasaur comes from prof oak but I believe he was also a trainer so it shouldn't matter

No thats fine thank you for the clarification
Click to expand...
Glad to know it! I like to hope/think/learn that me rambling about how OP the player character trainers especially are in terms of training Pokemon to unseen heights is appreciable & not bothersome to at least some.
The bond of a trainer & Pokemon is truly a phenomenon indeed, lol.
Apologies for any bother, all.
 
Imaginym said:
In terms of speed due to matching or exceeding the power of lightning. The move Thunder is known to depict real/cloud-to-ground lightning on at least 2 canon occasions, IIRC, but not all Electric-type moves necessarily qualify as lightning.
Click to expand...
oh ok

So basically some electric-type moves (thunder) are cloud to ground lightning gocha.
Imaginym said:
Glad to know it! I like to hope/think that me rambling about how OP the player character trainers especially are in terms of training Pokemon to unseen heights is appreciable & not bothersome to at least some.
The bond of a trainer & Pokemon is truly a phenomenon indeed, lol.
Apologies for any bother, all.
Click to expand...
No, this was helpful

As far as consistency goes red at this point is like the best trainer in his town so scaling far above normal pokemon for him makes sense
 
Oh yeah another question

For keys I'm thinking of changing the keys a bit from his old adventures profile into something like this

Early gen 1 (he has single stage pokemon) | Mid gen 1 (At this point all of his pokemon are middle staged) | Late gen 1 (Around the point where he fights the e4) | Gen 2/Gen 3 (I believe he makes a reintroduction around here and fights giovanni)

Would something like this be okay? (I think it makes it much easier to list stuff for him if we format it this way)
 
Delusionaltx2 said:
oh ok

So basically some electric-type moves (thunder) are cloud to ground lightning gocha.

No, this was helpful

As far as consistency goes red at this point is like the best trainer in his town so scaling far above normal pokemon for him makes sense
Click to expand...
Yeah.
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Thunder_(move)#Core_series_games Gen III, Gen IV, HGSS, Gen V, & maybe (Not sure.) Gen VI.
Thunder is often so by animation.
Also, do note the thing I edited in a bit delayedly, please.
Imaginym said:
In terms of speed due to matching or exceeding the power of lightning. The move Thunder is known to depict real/cloud-to-ground lightning on at least 2 canon occasions, IIRC, but not all Electric-type moves necessarily qualify as lightning.
However, not all Pokemon (Like some of low enough evolutionary stages, &/or early stage bug Pokemon, Baby Pokemon & exceptionally weak Pokemon like Magikarp.) may scale to even lower speed values like sound-dodging related values.

Glad to know it! I like to hope/think/learn that me rambling about how OP the player character trainers especially are in terms of training Pokemon to unseen heights is appreciable & not bothersome to at least some.
The bond of a trainer & Pokemon is truly a phenomenon indeed, lol.
Apologies for any bother, all.
Click to expand...

Stage-based scaling & all.

"However, not all Pokemon (Like some of low enough evolutionary stages, &/or early stage bug Pokemon, Baby Pokemon & exceptionally weak Pokemon like Magikarp.) may scale to even lower speed values like sound-dodging related values."

& of course, there are those that scale to light-related speeds because of stuff like Solar Beam, Flash Cannon, Mirror Shot, Power Gem, Dazzling Gleam, etc.

Delusionaltx2 said:
Oh yeah another question

For keys I'm thinking of changing the keys a bit from his old adventures profile into something like this

Early gen 1 (he has single stage pokemon) | Mid gen 1 (At this point all of his pokemon are middle staged) | Late gen 1 (Around the point where he fights the e4) | Gen 2/Gen 3 (I believe he makes a reintroduction around here and fights giovanni)

Would something like this be okay? (I think it makes it much easier to list stuff for him if we format it this way)
Click to expand...
Unsure.
Any opinions, all?


Also, does anyone here have any opinion on the notion of possible intercontintental range teleportation for Pokemon humans & presumably Pokemon themselves as well?
 
Last edited:
Imaginym said:
Yeah.
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Thunder_(move)#Core_series_games Gen III, Gen IV, HGSS, Gen V, & maybe (Not sure.) Gen VI.
Thunder is often so by animation.
Also, due note the thing I edited in a bit delayedly, please.


Stage-based scaling & all.

"However, not all Pokemon (Like some of low enough evolutionary stages, &/or early stage bug Pokemon, Baby Pokemon & exceptionally weak Pokemon like Magikarp.) may scale to even lower speed values like sound-dodging related values."
Click to expand...
oh yeah can't forget about that
Imaginym said:
& of course, there are those that scale to light-related speeds because of stuff like Solar Beam, Flash Cannon, Mirror Shot, Power Gem, Dazzling Gleam, etc.
Click to expand...
Nobody in the manga really scales to any of this stuff as far as early stuff goes

like it was used against Machoke but it kinda just gets blitzed and one-shot by it (Plus I believe Solar Beam in the manga was portrayed to be one of red's strongest moves so it makes more sense for this to be above his normal stuff)

And one more question; are the trainers 9B or 9A physically? Some say they are 9B while others say they're 9A and I looked at the Team rocket calc and it places each of them individually at 9B with the calc itself being 9A. Are the 9A trainer profiles just outdated or am I just missing something?
 
Delusionaltx2 said:
oh yeah can't forget about that
Click to expand...
Sarcasm??
(No offense meant, & I can guess why, just curious.)
Delusionaltx2 said:
Nobody in the manga really scales to any of this stuff as far as early stuff goes

like it was used against Machoke but it kinda just gets blitzed and one-shot by it (Plus I believe Solar Beam in the manga was portrayed to be one of red's strongest moves so it makes more sense for this to be above his normal stuff)

And one more question; are the trainers 9B or 9A physically? Some say they are 9B while others say they're 9A and I looked at the Team rocket calc and it places each of them individually at 9B with the calc itself being 9A. Are the 9A trainer profiles just outdated or am I just missing something?
Click to expand...
Probably incomplete revisions.

Pokemon world humans might have higher to scale to, & some advocate for scaling them to Pokemon, the Team Rocket Trio especially.

9-A could be possible. It probablyh needs discussion.

(Also, this reminds me of mourning G/S/C Chuck's feat.)
 
Imaginym said:
Sarcasm??
(No offense meant, & I can guess why, just curious.)
Click to expand...
No I was genuine (Sorry if it came off that way...)
Imaginym said:
Probably incomplete revisions.

Pokemon world humans might have higher to scale to, & some advocate for scaling them to Pokemon, the Team Rocket Trio especially.

9-A could be possible. It probablyh needs discussion.

(Also, this reminds me of mourning G/S/C Chuck's feat.)
Click to expand...
So should I just make red and blue 9-B?
 
Imaginym said:
No worries. Thanks for clarifying.

Even if I'm not sure which 9-B scaling point would be used, 9-B presumably is more consistent, though, I'd wait for some Knowledgeable Members to weigh in here, at least.
Click to expand...
Ok (i'll just list them as human level the within the sandbox for the time being)
 
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera said:
There's an episode where Bonnie, an 8 year old, falls down an elevator shaft and hits the ground hard enough to cause an explosion... and she just gets up fine.
Click to expand...
Woah, sounds crazy! Source, please?

& here I thought Brendan/Pillar falling down Sky Pillar's huge floors -on bike or not- was wild.

Also, shoutouts to G/S/C Chuck chucking a boulder so hard it shatters. Why did HG/SS do him so dirty by just making him sit under a waterfall?!
 
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