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Kara no Kyoukai - Swirl of the Root Tier 0 (Re-Retake)

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Alright, we have 4 staff agreements, including 2 admins and not a single disagreement in so far

@Antvasima I'm supposing this thread can be passed now?
 
Yeah, alright, no rush.
I'd like Ultima's opinions on it as well.
Assuming there are no staff votes/responses after a long while, what would follow? The thread will be passed or

Also, just in case, I'd request this be moved to the staff thread, if possible.
 
Voidnether said:
would this make Scathach to be High 1-A+ since land of shadows is categorized within outside of the world (Root)?
Click to expand...
Land of Shadows is so obviously not inside the Root.

Likewise with the Ryougi question, just wait for this thread to pass through, and you can open a thread for this topic elsewhere after we're done here.

The Ryougi thing is narratively more significant in relation to the Root than this topic and it will be dealt with later.

But my only response is that being outside the world doesn't make you be 'inside' the Root because "outside the world" is used for the reverse side as well (where the land of shadows actually exists), and the arguments presented already implicitly deny the Root being the reverse side of the world.

They are described differently, one with fewer ontic qualifications than the other (on the basis of via negativa), and it's already stated that the way of emptiness is different from the way of Earth, as stated by Archetype: Earth.

Besides this being against narrative consistency, there's an obvious discrepancy between the experience of the Root and Inner Sea. The Inner Sea permits disparation of subjects and objects. Such that any subject and object can be identifiable, then made determinate by whatever residual multiplicity they possess, even as abstract entities (i.e metaphysical parts), but this is different from the Root, which does not permit disparate and discrete entities within it that can be individuated from one another. It's just the Root as the flow and the flow as the person who experiences it, alongside the dissolution of qualities that would otherwise qualify an individual in the Inner Sea.
 
ShinMaximillion said:
Land of Shadows is so obviously not inside the Root.

Likewise with the Ryougi question, just wait for this thread to pass through, and you can open a thread for this topic elsewhere after we're done here.

The Ryougi thing is narratively more significant in relation to the Root than this topic and it will be dealt with later.

But my only response is that being outside the world doesn't make you be 'inside' the Root because "outside the world" is used for the reverse side as well (where the land of shadows actually exists), and the arguments presented already implicitly deny the Root being the reverse side of the world.

They are described differently, one with fewer ontic qualifications than the other (on the basis of via negativa), and it's already stated that the way of emptiness is different from the way of Earth, as stated by Archetype: Earth.

Besides this being against narrative consistency, there's an obvious discrepancy between the experience of the Root and Inner Sea. The Inner Sea permits disparation of subjects and objects. Such that any subject and object can be identifiable, then made determinate by whatever residual multiplicity they possess, even as abstract entities (i.e metaphysical parts), but this is different from the Root, which does not permit disparate and discrete entities within it that can be individuated from one another. It's just the Root as the flow and the flow as the person who experiences it, alongside the dissolution of qualities that would otherwise qualify an individual in the Inner Sea.
Click to expand...
I'd like to add—

The term 'outside of the world' is polysemous, considering that it refers to the Imaginary number space, Fairy World, Millennium Castle, Land of Shadows, Outer Universes (universe of Outer Gods) and the Throne of Heroes, other than being outside of the world. There is never a time anywhere in the source material where the land of shadows is described in relation to the Root, and all of these realms cannot be equivalently "inside the Root", because they are all separate planes contained by the memories of the world (except the outer universe, which has to do with foreigners) and the World Egg itself is already stated to be inferior metaphysically to the Akashic Records.
 
I took a look at the content revision, I agree.
I also believe the Root can have a High 1-A key too.
But still, I agree with the Tier 0 thingy.
anime-kara-no-kyoukai.gif
 
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As a heads-up, I'm not reading anything aside from the OP, so if there's been any in-between discussion that dispels my doubts below, feel free to point out.

In any case, like I mentioned before, the Root itself is such a blatantly intentional Tier 0-y thing that whether the evidence provided for it fits the rating is really a pointless question to ask. It qualifies pretty straightforwardly, so the only question left is if this characterization is consistent within the verse. It seems that the OP treats the whole business with the Moon Cell apparently scaling to the Root as already resolved, so I'll trust that and not press it further.

Really I think the weirdest thing in here is the position of the Origin / the Akashic Records vis. the Root itself. The OP says several times that there is a sort of priority, asymmetry and derivation between it and the Root proper, but nevertheless it just rates it as Tier 0 allegedly on the basis that it's inseparable from the Root. This has some obvious issues to it, given that if they're just intramentally distinct aspects of the same reality, there shouldn't be any such relation of derivation, or subordination, or asymmetry at all, especially given that the reality in question is Tier 0 (i.e. Doesn't admit of degrees and of "more and less"). In fact the OP even goes as far as interpreting one passage as saying that even a return to the Origin won't be sufficient to reach the Root, and saying that the Origin/the Akashic Records is the "activity" of the Root which the Root itself transcends (which you also try to provide evidence for in the form of the Root transcending the predicates "Origin" and "Zero"). Bit suspicious.

Otherwise the stuff seems fine. The "Root is at the top of dimensional theory and not above it" is so silly it's not really worth bothering with, and it seems there's also this:

If contradiction is their nature, then why, one may ask, have there been those who did reach the Root? The answer is simple. It is not that there exists some method by which the Root may be reached.
It is merely that there exist humans who can reach it. No matter what wisdom one learns, in the end, magecraft is nothing more than something acquired afterward—an appendage, a secondary graft. Talent is what it truly comes down to. Whether you are born with it or not. Whether you are chosen or not. There exist humans who, from the moment of birth, are already connected to the Root. The primates have grown too complex, multiplied into too many kinds, and drifted far from their source, the Root.
Click to expand...

Which looks like it confirms that reaching the Root has nothing to do with whatever method is used to reach it and entirely to do with whether the person doing it has been "blessed" with this special link to the Root. Seems like an adequate enough deterrent for potential anti-feats.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Really I think the weirdest thing in here is the position of the Origin / the Akashic Records vis. the Root itself. The OP says several times that there is a sort of priority, asymmetry and derivation between it and the Root proper, but nevertheless it just rates it as Tier 0 allegedly on the basis that it's inseparable from the Root.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your comment and input, well valued. But this, in particular, I only said that because they are presented as the same thing with just distinctive functions or they answer to the same nameless thing [ ], but the names signify different aspects of the same. The Akashic Records are just part of the Root, which is considered from an immanent perspective, and if the 'Root' is considered a transcendent principle that sets all events in motion, it can be considered to hold more priority over the Akashic Records.

But I don't think that priority itself suggests an ontological difference. Because [ ] only confers a lack of division between the created and the Root. It just seems like a dialectical thing rather than an ontological one; herein [ ] is just meaningless if the Akashic Records are separate from the Root. But then again, I don't necessarily think the Akashic Records not being Tier 0 is that problematic. The Root can just be [ ] as it is, and if the Akashic Records are High 1-A+, then it would be in line with it being the totality of what the Root actualises.

So, without any imposed distinction between it and the Akashic Records (because it contains them), it is properly understood as [ ]
For it is both everything and itself (nothing). Maybe I just got too stuck on 'the perfection' stuff and it being the unity of subject and object. If the totality of what flows from the Root is just the Akashic Records, then it makes sense that you can't return to it but the Origin, because even a 'return' is just part of the flow.

So High 1-A+ Akashic Records and [ ] as Tier 0 is fine as an alternative rating for me, I guess.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Really I think the weirdest thing in here is the position of the Origin / the Akashic Records vis. the Root itself. The OP says several times that there is a sort of priority, asymmetry and derivation between it and the Root proper, but nevertheless it just rates it as Tier 0 allegedly on the basis that it's inseparable from the Root. This has some obvious issues to it, given that if they're just intramentally distinct aspects of the same reality, there shouldn't be any such relation of derivation, or subordination, or asymmetry at all, especially given that the reality in question is Tier 0 (i.e. Doesn't admit of degrees and of "more and less"). In fact the OP even goes as far as interpreting one passage as saying that even a return to the Origin won't be sufficient to reach the Root, and saying that the Origin/the Akashic Records is the "activity" of the Root which the Root itself transcends (which you also try to provide evidence for in the form of the Root transcending the predicates "Origin" and "Zero"). Bit suspicious.
Click to expand...
Basing myself on what the OP has provided if I may share my view of the situation, rather than a direct subordination amongst parts Instead, it's an emanative, self-reflexive activity or function of the Root inseparable as the Root's own self-unfolding, yet asymmetrical because the Root (as ineffable 「 」/ nothingness) transcends even its own expressions. I believe what is framed is a relationship as a non-dual, emanative unity similar to philosophical monads or henads where asymmetry is directional but not hierarchical.
Now specifically for the asymmetry here in our context. It seems rather phenomenological, not ontological; the Records resists reduction to being the sum of all its derivative phenomena, making it analogically equivalent to the Root without degrees. In definitive derivation is internal self-unfolding where from the Swirl of the Root, a current of meaning flows (emanates). This meaning upon which it gains substantiality is a derivative of what is called the origin, or rather, the meaning emerging from the Swirl of the Root is no different from the function called the Origin based on Op own inferences. Terminally the Root has no form, that which will become everything, that which lacks direction," but gains substantiality through the Origin's directional force. This asymmetry is functional (the Root as ground, Origin as impulse), the Origin is the essence of existence possessed by all things indivisibly so, fully sharing the Root's absoluteness.
But at the end of the day, the OP is free to clarify if I misinterpreted his ideas or what he tried to express.
 
Elesia011 said:
Now specifically for the asymmetry here in our context. It seems rather phenomenological, not ontological; the Records resists reduction to being the sum of all its derivative phenomena, making it analogically equivalent to the Root without degrees. In definitive derivation is internal self-unfolding where from the Swirl of the Root, a current of meaning flows (emanates). This meaning upon which it gains substantiality is a derivative of what is called the origin, or rather, the meaning emerging from the Swirl of the Root is no different from the function called the Origin based on Op own inferences. Terminally the Root has no form, that which will become everything, that which lacks direction," but gains substantiality through the Origin's directional force. This asymmetry is functional (the Root as ground, Origin as impulse), the Origin is the essence of existence possessed by all things indivisibly so, fully sharing the Root's absoluteness.
But at the end of the day, the OP is free to clarify if I misinterpreted his ideas or what he tried to express.

But at the end of the day, the OP is free to clarify if I misinterpreted his ideas or what he tried to express.
Click to expand...
I was initially against it before talking with Qawsed, but nah, I think I'm fine with High 1-A+ Akashic Records now, personally. Since U1tima mentioned he didn't check any of the other comments, he likely missed that out, specifically the discussion with Qawsed.

I don't necessarily think it would undercut the non-duality stuff, any more than the Root as encompassing what manifests from it. It seems more parsimonious, given that it is not an explanation that needs over-qualification to make sense of, I think mostly. I feel like if the Akashic Records were considered identical to [ ] in every sense of the word, it would lead to too much reification of what shouldn't be. Otherwise, the [ ]/emptiness/Root still transcends activity (has no direction) and necessity, whilst the Akashic Records are just activity itself.

High 1-A+ (Type 2 if I am recalling that correctly) is also just otherwise defined in relation to Tier 0, as just everything the Tier 0 thing grounds to. So I think it's fine for now, I agreed with Qawsedf234's reasoning on [ ] being Tier 0, not the Akashic Records and the like.

That being said, @Antvasima, is this enough for the thread to pass?
 
ShinMaximillion said:
I was initially against it before talking with Qawsed, but nah, I think I'm fine with High 1-A+ Akashic Records now, personally. Since U1tima mentioned he didn't check any of the other comments, he likely missed that out, specifically the discussion with Qawsed.

I don't necessarily think it would undercut the non-duality stuff, any more than the Root as encompassing what manifests from it. It seems more parsimonious, given that it is not an explanation that needs over-qualification to make sense of, I think mostly. I feel like if the Akashic Records were considered identical to [ ] in every sense of the word, it would lead to too much reification of what shouldn't be. Otherwise, the [ ]/emptiness/Root still transcends activity (has no direction) and necessity, whilst the Akashic Records are just activity itself.

High 1-A+ (Type 2 if I am recalling that correctly) is also just otherwise defined in relation to Tier 0, as just everything the Tier 0 thing grounds to. So I think it's fine for now, I agreed with Qawsedf234's reasoning on [ ] being Tier 0, not the Akashic Records and the like.

That being said, @Antvasima, is this enough for the thread to pass?
Click to expand...
Very well. If that's the case, I have nothing further to add. I'll follow the consensus.
 
Antvasima said:
If Ultima has genuinely accepted this, it should be fine to apply, but it seemed somewhat unclear to me from what I recall. 🙏
Click to expand...
Ultima_Reality said:
In any case, like I mentioned before, the Root itself is such a blatantly intentional Tier 0-y thing that whether the evidence provided for it fits the rating is really a pointless question to ask. It qualifies pretty straightforwardly, so the only question left is if this characterization is consistent within the verse. It seems that the OP treats the whole business with the Moon Cell apparently scaling to the Root as already resolved, so I'll trust that and not press it further.
Click to expand...
Though it seems like Ultima does have a slight issue?
Ultima_Reality said:
Really I think the weirdest thing in here is the position of the Origin / the Akashic Records vis. the Root itself. The OP says several times that there is a sort of priority, asymmetry and derivation between it and the Root proper, but nevertheless it just rates it as Tier 0 allegedly on the basis that it's inseparable from the Root. This has some obvious issues to it, given that if they're just intramentally distinct aspects of the same reality, there shouldn't be any such relation of derivation, or subordination, or asymmetry at all, especially given that the reality in question is Tier 0 (i.e. Doesn't admit of degrees and of "more and less"). In fact the OP even goes as far as interpreting one passage as saying that even a return to the Origin won't be sufficient to reach the Root, and saying that the Origin/the Akashic Records is the "activity" of the Root which the Root itself transcends (which you also try to provide evidence for in the form of the Root transcending the predicates "Origin" and "Zero"). Bit suspicious.
Click to expand...
 
His issues is about Akashic Records' position, which from what OP interpreted, AR < Root. Meanwhile it seems like Akashic Record is just another distinct aspect of Root thus there shouldn't be any derivation or subordinate relationship. As Akashic Records should be the same as Root. So it is likely that Ultima is a bit unsure about Akashic Records, but tier 0 Root is very oke to him
 
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