Kara no Kyoukai - Swirl of the Root Tier 0 (Re-Retake)

[Vietthai96]

What does this mean? Can there be two tier 0 ?

No, currently speaking from the standard

 

[ShinMaximillion]

What does this mean? Can there be two tier 0 ?

「　」 [Others]
If you really wished to pronounce this term, call it "Kara".
Its meaning varied depending on each individual's understanding. To put it in simple terms, it was the Spiral of Origin.
However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer ' '.
To properly express this term was a source of headache during the production of the drama CDs.

The Akashic Records and the Root are different aspects of the same thing「 」

The Root is where all phenomena flow; the Akashic Records are a totality of that self-manifestation. Self-manifestation is just the Root's omnipresence; the Root is transcendent (nothing) because it is where everything is prepared. The Root's transcendence is indicative in its omnipresence, and vice versa,「 」just means both the Root's transcendence and omnipresence defer to the same point of no reference.

Ultimately, this is the realisation that transcendence and immanence are merely two equivalent expressions of a singular Absolute One.

Infinity is not 「 」. For infinity to remain infinite, the finite has to be defined. Without the finite there cannot exist infinity. Because things have an end, we can observe the thing called infinity. Ryougi Shiki had been cast into infinity, she saw the impossible finite and cut through it. Of course, there is no finite inside of the infinite. You can’t slash through what doesn’t exist, so escape from such a cage is impossible. But, if there is no finite then there is no infinite. Whether finite walls exist or not, an endless world holds no meaning before Ryougi Shiki. If there really is no finite, then it’s not infinite but 「 」.
17/ - Paradox Spiral

Which is why「 」cannot be identified as infinity. Because infinity has to be defined by relation of opposition to finite things, in that sense infinity is 'determinate' because it is defined by the imposition of finitude. Likewise, just saying the Root is a transcendent cause of all things, misses the mark because what the Root causes is inseparable from the Root — because the Root is undivided (hence necessarily immanent as well)

It is its self-manifestation as well. Hence neither neatly fits into the dual category of infinity and the finite, but if it truly has no such limitation of determination then it is not infinity but 「 」

Which is why Shiki, who after experiencing the Root correctly notes:

Where is the boundary between the two? The boundary is uncertain. It is you who determines the boundary, but it is the other side that determines the boundary. Then there are no boundaries from the beginning. The world is all bounded by absolute, empty boundaries. There is no wall in society that separates the abnormal from the normal. - We are the ones who create the boundaries.

/5 - Remaining sense of Pain (Kara No Kyoukai - Novel 1)

That boundaries are determined and measured by the 'other side', such that there are no boundaries in the world to begin with. The world is filled with divisions/boundaries that are fundamentally empty. She makes an intimate example by society defining the boundaries, such that it divides between what it considers the abnormal and normal.

But it is ultimately the finite that creates boundaries that don't exist. The same intuition applies when something finite feels inclined to treat what is transcendent as an isolated phenomenon of the sky. When in reality what is transcendent is only considered as such, because its influence is fundamentally all-encompassing as well.

Even if the Root is not present spatially in all things, because it is formless, it is still causally present in all things.

 

[Mythic381]

What does this mean? Can there be two tier 0 ?

technically yes but no

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

What does this mean? Can there be two tier 0 ?

In any case, the Root/「 」 would be Tier 0 and the Akashic Records alongside would be Tier 0 as well, since in-themselves they are inseparable from the Root.

 

[Tdjwo]

So pretty much like;
Tier: 0 | 0

 

[ShinMaximillion]

So pretty much like;
Tier: 0 | 0

Just a quick thing, but I don't think two keys are necessary, if「 」is treated as a separate key from the Akashic Records. Then we'd be forced to have speed look like something like: Omnipresent (for the Akashic Records) and Inapplicable (for 「 」). All of the aspects are interdependent, and「 」is just qualified by the dualities imposed by agents.

I probably should've added scans for it being Amala-Vijnana (Pure Consciousness) to contrast it from Alaya-Vijnana, but I think the scans and arguments are enough to get a general grasp of the Root for the populace.

 

[Hjdjdhf]

So, how will Shiki Ryougi be modified later? （Her power is that of the Swirl Of The Root, the origin and recorder of everything in existence which she manipulates and bends to act as an omnipotent wish-granting device）

 

[ShinMaximillion]

So, how will Shiki Ryougi be modified later? （Her power is that of the Swirl Of The Root, the origin and recorder of everything in existence which she manipulates and bends to act as an omnipotent wish-granting device）

This can come later, alongside specifics on the MEoDP, it'll be a conversation for another worthwhile thread. I don't want to make the thread any harder for people to get into. We need staff to evaluate this thread first, too, any more and things would get too big/messy and potentially deviate from the original intention of the CRT as could be seen from the previous two threads, hence.

 

[SuperNova55555]

No, currently speaking from the standard

Erm… so do you have an opinion on this or…?

 

[Vietthai96]

Erm… so do you have an opinion on this or…?

Well, i can't escape my fate being the first to vote in CRTs, I guess.

Anyway, Tier 0 Root is fine; it was pretty much accepted to be Apophatic Theology back in the day when it was accepted to be 1-A before the new tiering system. Most issues against it back then was either anti-feat or people don't know about the usage of the term "root" in the verse, thus argue against it due to this term appears in character's skills

 

[SuperNova55555]

Well, i can't escape my fate being the first to vote in CRTs, I guess.

Anyway, Tier 0 Root is fine; it was pretty much accepted to be Apophatic Theology back in the day when it was accepted to be 1-A before the new tiering system. Most issues against it back then was either anti-feat or people don't know about the usage of the term "root" in the verse, thus argue against it due to this term appears in character's skills

Aight Can you check HSR CM1 now

 

[Vietthai96]

Aight Can you check HSR CM1 now

In about 25 years from now

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Well, i can't escape my fate being the first to vote in CRTs, I guess.

Anyway, Tier 0 Root is fine; it was pretty much accepted to be Apophatic Theology back in the day when it was accepted to be 1-A before the new tiering system. Most issues against it back then was either anti-feat or people don't know about the usage of the term "root" in the verse, thus argue against it due to this term appears in character's skills

Thank you.

Can you ask other mods to comment here?

 

[Vietthai96]

Thank you.

Can you ask other mods to comment here?

@Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @ActuallySpaceMan42 @FinePoint

I doubt other thread mods are interested in evaluating tier 0; some are busy with real-life stuff. All admins was pinged by KLOL

 

[Bahaha]

What about those connected to the Root but have a self(e.g. Manaka Sajyou or void shiki)? There can be root-born beings, so what tier will they be given and how do they fit here. Manaka's personal connection allows her to be nigh-omnipotent, and I think there are statements about her controlling "all of creation" from her connection. I don't think she can be any tier below 1-A.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

What about those connected to the Root but have a self(e.g. Manaka Sajyou or void shiki)? There can be root-born beings, so what tier will they be given and how do they fit here. Manaka's personal connection allows her to be nigh-omnipotent, and I think there are statements about her controlling "all of creation" from her connection. I don't think she can be any tier below 1-A.

Scaling will be taken care of in another thread. This thread is just focused on upgrading the Root.

 

[Deadlock-333]

Don't know if my vote counts but I agree

 

[Mythic381]

Don't know if my vote counts but I agree

Your vote gets added but it doesn't actually count, only mods are.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Your input here would be appreciated

Dang

Can there be two tier 0 ?

As seperate things, no.

To use IRL religion as an example (I know cringe), God from Christianity would be Tier 0 as the Father, Son, Holy Spirit are different expression of the same Godhead/Monad. They're not seperate in the true sense and all are the same being.

What isn't Tier 0 would be something like Zoroastrianism with Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu. Where they are seperate and ultimately different fundamental forces. What it comes down to is that a Tier 0 should never be able to be sub-divided into different parts. It has to be all of something. The expression of that something can be argued as different like with YHWH but they cannot be different beings.

, how will Shiki Ryougi be modified later? （Her power is that of the Swirl Of The Root, the origin and recorder of everything in existence which she manipulates and bends to act as an omnipotent wish-granting device）

If a character can tap into a Tier 0 source fully Then source is per the rules not Tier 0. If she draws upon eminations of the Tier 0 being then they can be all the up to High 1-A+ like with World of Darkness.

Looking at the thread, my view is that the Records and Swirl of Root aren't Tier 0, but the [ ] that is the true source of creation seems Tier 0.

 

[Mythic381]

To use IRL religion as an example (I know cringe), God from Christianity would be Tier 0 as the Father, Son, Holy Spirit are different expression of the same Godhead/Monad. They're not seperate in the true sense and all are the same being.

Almost like that's the framework this wiki uses for tier 0

 

[Firestorm808]

Can someone summarize the examples of the 1-A qualitative superiority wall being met?

 

[SuperNova55555]

Can someone summarize the examples of the 1-A qualitative superiority wall being met?

Uh. This is a Tier 0 thread. What does 1-A even gotta do with this…?

 

[Firestorm808]

Uh. This is a Tier 0 thread. What does 1-A even gotta do with this…?

Part of being Tier 0 means being qualitatively superior to the physical world.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Part of being Tier 0 means being qualitatively superior to the physical world.

Freed from the constraints of a physical vessel, my spirit and soul had begun to stretch beyond their limits, amplifying my true abilities. Perhaps that was why— At this moment, I could see it. Inside the vortex. A space where mind, body, time, and space bled into one another like tangled, dissolving threads. And within it—an incomprehensible record, spreading outward. The Adventures of Lord El-Melloi II Volume 8: Fem's Casa (Lower) - Chapter 5

I mean, they sent this earlier. Which was a characters [phenomenological] experience of the Root, in a near death situation. It talks about the dissolution of space, time, mind and a liberation from physical constraints. But, I think this should also be implicit by the very nature of the Root.

 

[Youngstargrade]

In my opinion, root/akashic record is another name for [ ]..[ ] is called akashic record because [ ] records everything..[ ] is called root because [ ] is the origin of everything..

So, root/akashic record/[ ] are the same thing.. they are just different names..

By the way, I agree with Thread..

 

[Re5yh]

So, how many staff agree with the proposal?

 

[Luckyfun]

Part of being Tier 0 means being qualitatively superior to the physical world.

I don't think there is one？

 

[HigashikataJobin]

So, how many staff agree with the proposal?

One, up until now.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

If a character can tap into a Tier 0 source fully Then source is per the rules not Tier 0. If she draws upon eminations of the Tier 0 being then they can be all the up to High 1-A+ like with World of Darkness.

Looking at the thread, my view is that the Records and Swirl of Root aren't Tier 0, but the [ ] that is the true source of creation seems Tier 0.

Hello there, good day Qawsed!

I'll just begin by addressing how the Root is actually presented inverse. The interpretation is flattering, though, but to begin with「 」is never; is impossible to qualify as the "true source of everything", because, as per Reines, it is supposed to directly negate predication that implies cause to effect relation:

Hmph, saying it out loud like this really proves how inadequate words are [こうして口にしてみると言葉は本当によくないな]. Even terms like 'zero' or 'origin' come with unnecessary colors [ゼロも根源にも余分な色がついていて] that obscure the true meaning they’re meant to convey [せっかくの意味を閉ざしてしまう]."

She adamantly denies the idea of「 」being treated as a reference to the Root as the source of all phenomena; the reason is made clear even earlier here:

"Ah, yes. It is referred to as the Vortex of Origin [根源の渦], simply the Origin [根源], or even as something so ineffable that it’s merely called ' ' [「 」]. It is the cause of everything [すべての原因であり], the zero [ゼロ] that set all phenomena and events [現象・事象] into motion.

Wherein she defers the idea of it merely just being ineffable to「 」and with it as the cause as just the 'Origin', Zero or 'the Vortex of Origin'.

Again, just earlier, I did present the explanation for why the Root and「 」would be the same, on account that the imposition of dualities when referring to the Root is just created by finite beings as they understand the Root from beneath it but it becomes apparent that both the Root, Akashic Records and「 」are treated equivalently, except with respect to how humans think of the Root.

Point 1:

“The thing called the Swirl of the Root, it is probably the birthplace of everything. All phenomena flow out from it. If you know the origin, the results are naturally produced. To describe it as it is, you could say that it’s the ‘perfect knowledge’. By creating a standard like perfection or the like, we are ultimately limiting the concept, so even that description is incorrect. But since that’s the easiest way of defining it, the name stuck.** /6 (Spiral Paradox, 2)

Touko presents the 'Root' as a place where all phenomena flow out of. She then calls it "ultimate knowledge", but later relinquishes that designation, because she understands that it delimits the Root. So the case of ineffability is present again, through the designation of the ground called "the Root".

Point 2:

I was floating in a sea with no light or sound. Naked, without anything to cover her, the human being called Ryougi Shiki was sinking into the depths. There was no light here. No, I suspect I had never fallen in the first place. Since there was nothing here. It wasn’t just that there was no light, there wasn’t even any darkness. Since there was nothing here, nothing was visible. There was no meaning to the concept of falling. Inside the 「 」 within which even form was meaningless, just my body kept sinking. The naked me; I’m a poisonous shade which made me want to turn my eyes away. Because everything 「here」 bore such a poisonous aura.Garan-no-dou - /1

Here, in her near-death experience, Ryougi Shiki experiences the Root. And here, the term Root is used interchangeably with「 」, as will be observed later in the epilogue:

My origin is nihil. From nihil I originated, the flesh that I am, the corpse in the womb to which life was somehow given. That is why Shiki can perceive death. For two years, in her comatose state, she was unable to view the outside world, and could do nothing but gaze into the nihil that Ryougi Shiki "is." More than simply seeing, she felt death.

Here, she presents Ryougi Shiki (at the level of the Root) to be identical to the Root itself. Such that in experiencing the Root, she experiences herself self-reflexively (important for reference later).

All that time she was floating there in that ocean which others call the "swirl of the Root." Shipwrecked all alone in the midst of " ".

Here,「Ryougi Shiki」who is「Omniscience」just outright makes「 」synonymous with the Root. And suggests the 'Root' is just what others「 」

Point 3:

Yet, my feet did not stop. Not even the will to stop arose. The flow itself was me, and I was the flow. Why should I fear returning to the place I was born?

Similarly, Gray has a similar experience to the Root, wherein a return to the flow was just recognition that "I" is not dual with the ground. And that she herself is the ground (flow) and the ground is her. Just as Shiki was stated to be staring at herself, when she was experiencing「 」

Inside the vortex......And within it—an incomprehensible record, spreading outward.

And within that same sphere of reality, the Akashic Records subsisted as an incomprehensible record that spreads outward.

The Vortex of Radix.Yes. Supposedly the goal of every mage. Then again, the phrase “the Vortex of Radix” is just a convenient name. Putting it as a phrase is wrong in the first place, so sometimes, it’s just referred to as [ ] (emptiness, 空, kara).The Case Files of Lord El-Melloi II Vol. 6 - Atlas' Contract (Upper) ~Part 2~

Here, they shed light on the interlink between「 」and the Root. And they just say "Vortex of Radix/Swirl of the Root" is just a convenient name, because putting it in a phrase is wrong. Again, it's really just about non-dual recognition. What separates the names of the Root is the difference in signifier, which designates different aspects of the Root, but the signified is always the same. It is always「 」

The Akashic Records are the totality of the manifestations that flowed from the Root, that is, already contained in its perfection within the Root. And the Root/zero, as implicit in its name, represents the Root viewed as the ultimate ground of everything.「 」is regarded as an indication of terms like 'zero' and 'origin' being inadequate, which signifies non-dual fundamentalism.

It is necessary not to refer to it as the cause, because what is 'caused' is undivided from the cause. As seen from the portions that explain Ryougi and Gray's experience of it, you can't really separate anything between them without dualising the Root. Which is the philosophical subtext of type moon, relating to the Root in particular, rejects:

According to the Dharma, shinkū (the complete/absolute void in the Mahayana tradition) is a state of absolute freedom. In this realm, all dualities simply vanish. The mind, in its intrinsic clarity, grasps the universal Dharma and penetrates the pure essence of existence, exactly as it is. The sky reveals itself as vast, colors blend into delicate shades. Standing at the misty boundary, your noble figure gazes upon the eternal wandering of the Stars.

True Emptiness is just the [contemplative] truth of reality as free from dualities. Such that the mind grasps in its intrinsic clarity the Dharma and penetrates the pure essence of existence as it is. To view the world as it is and as it ought to be, is the Buddhist notion of Tathagata, which propagates the idea that reality just is and no more than that, which again relates to the earlier statements I sent of Ryougi saying "the world is confined by empty boundaries" and such boundaries are "created by us".

This was after she experienced the Root and gained recognition of the intrinsic emptiness beneath the impermanence of all things. Also, you agree with「 」being Tier 0?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Also, you agree with「 」being Tier 0?

I agree with [ ] being Tier 0, but the Root and Records, which seem to me as lesser sub-emitations of a more overarching concept.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

I agree with [ ] being Tier 0

That's cool.

but the Root and Records, which seem to me as lesser sub-emitations of a more overarching concept.

This is where we gotta talk.

The Root and Records would otherwise be untierable, is it that? Or is it just gonna be that when we talk about「 」as including both the Records and the Root? Because that seems to be the intention in the verse, at least. If that's so, then that's fine, but otherwise if they get delimited to High 1-A+. It'll definitely look weird, at least in that「 」becomes effectively meaningless.

The non-dual implications of「 」 are only meaningful through expressing the Akashic Records and the Root. Since the question of why altogether is the Root "transcendent" is intimated as related to the Root being all-encompassing (which has to do with the Akashic Records) and in actuality, the Root is supposed to be the "transcendent" facets, the 'nothingness' (Root) that is considered that, specifically because from it, everything (function of the Akashic Records) was prepared and predetermined.

I had「 」as just expressing the unity of immanence and transcendence here, which would mean it is just the Root as everything and nothing, intrinsically. Not just either nothing nor just mere everything. Not that it is transcendent, since metaphysically a first cause as transcendent is interrelated to its being self-sufficient and causally prior to all things as their ground, but since 'ground' and 'grounded' create the illusion of separation between "everything" and "nothingness", which doesn't exist to begin with. Because the ultimate reality is just both "everything" and "nothing/itself altogether. So neither strictly transcendent nor immanent, fit the bill for a description of the Root's fullness.

All of this assumes all three functions are interlinked, since the final non-dual recognition just presupposes all facets of the Root. If so, then「 」would be Tier 0, yeah.
But at that point, we will just agree to not tier the Root and Akashic Records, by just assuming they are both included in「 」

 

[Qawsedf234]

The Root and Records would otherwise be untierable, is it that?

It would be like the current page of Anu from Elder Scrolls in my mind. Since giving a name to both concepts only reflect a improper understanding of those concepts, I don't think the Root or Records are Tier 0 when they're being named, only the blank name would be Tier 0.

It wouldn't affect most scaling, since most things wouldn't reach the [ ] anyways.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

It would be like the current page of Anu from Elder Scrolls in my mind. Since giving a name to both concepts only reflect a improper understanding of those concepts, I don't think the Root or Records are Tier 0 when they're being named, only the blank name would be Tier 0.

It wouldn't affect most scaling, since most things wouldn't reach the [ ] anyways.

I think this is closer to what I intend to say, although admittedly it is phrased a little weird. It makes it sound like when the Root is named, it ontologically becomes what it is not, but if you just mean its fullness exhausts language completely, then sure, I guess.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Planck69 @Everything12 @Ovy7 @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @RatherClueless @GrathOfLux @Udlmaster @FinePoint @SamanPatou @ActuallySpaceMan42

What do you all think about this tier 0 revision thread?

 

[FinePoint]

What do you all think about this tier 0 revision thread?

I think this is something I probably can't fairly evaluate with limited time abroad, and so would likely have to wait until after my vacation, my apologies.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

I think this is something I probably can't fairly evaluate with limited time abroad, and so would likely have to wait until after my vacation, my apologies.

That's ok.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

I think this is something I probably can't fairly evaluate with limited time abroad, and so would likely have to wait until after my vacation, my apologies.

All good, have a nice and safe vacation up there. Happy holidays.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. No problem.

 

[Tzimtzumim]

Agree with the thread, been a long time coming.

 

[Hayato5652]

I agree with this CRT