Sonic the Hedgehog (Canon Movies, NiGHTS and Cosmology page updates)

[Starsprite53]

Holy mucho texto

It took me over two weeks btw, and I'm already dead from the inside.

 

[Mephistus]

Going to try and respond to the primary evidence stuff for NiGHTS (not going to get into too much secondary stuff I tried to compile, since its a waste of time, was honestly expecting star to post sooner) since this thread seems to be at a standstill with the lengthy responses. I assume we can say the Movieverse has no contention?

-

For the Christmas NiD, the Official Sega Saturn Magazine Uk as a source shouldn't be definitively used as airtight evidence for the crossover having a plot. Prior issues state that they have direct correspondence with Sega (Issue 9 is linked quote being "In true SSM tradition we've got hold of tonnes more pictures, along with more information wrenched straight from the clenched mouth of Sega of Japan."), but the follow up issue 15 its more just introspection for the showcase written by the Editor regarding the lore behind Sonic's appearance there.

Page 4 here of Issue 15 states the disclaimer here (which comes along with the discussed issues): Sega Saturn Magazine is an official license, however the views expressed in this magazine are not necessarily those of the publisher or of Sega. Although we take great care in ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this magazine, the publishers cannot be held responsible for omissions and erros that may occur particularly if it involves Toys R Us."

So now I don't feel comfortable in saying it was a lore fact that he showed up in Christmas NiGHTS by dreaming rather than just a straight cameo or game mode. The other info on the official website says you just play in the dream as Sonic.

Unless there's some other evidence other than that someone wants to push forward though, it shouldn't be used here; it really doesn't contradict anything if Sonic has a zany dream. Wizeman couldve easily came back to life as he said to and made the Nightmaren to frighten Sonic on its own, or the Nightmaren couldve decided to take on that form since some can change their shape to things that look uncanny that visitors to the dream realm are aware of, like in Journey of Dreams a Nightmaren scares Helen with showing her Helen's mom with normal eyes that shift to red eyes.

The april fools mode should completely be struck from the profiles for NiGHTS, there's not an adjacent plot point to it happening and it only was brought up on the profile because it only serves to prove that reala and nights have the same equal abilities, something that is already directly stated in both the japanese christmas nights into dreams manual and the official website. I wholeheartedly don't mind that being removed if that's causing confusion on it being something that actually happens. Also, looking at the official sega website, there is also a statement on the official website that this is just NiGHTS disguised as Reala, so its not even an actual switcheroo to begin with nor a plot centric occurence.

-

For Sonic Adventure's showing, I disagree to say that the entire thing is a fabrication and artificial, ultimately this interpretation came about because I myself was going off some media sources floating the idea you go to the actual place "in NiGHTS last level in his game", but I am in agreement with certain parts being a 'tribute' like the walls showing actual limitations. Graphical limitations aside for how it could be interpreted for the Twin Seeds section since you aren't supposed to be able to collide with the environment's edge there and you go into a building space that shouldn't fit the whole pinball section; you have NiGHTS / Ideya Capture literally spin, floating along there, without any reason of propulsion and staying in the air, and there's no real reason why that's not justifiable evidence of integration of actual magical elements of NiD verse into the Sonic verse, rather than it being mechanical constructs made by humans. The thing about it being optional as a place to visit and run to from the main map doesn't circumvent its just a building that they have in their world, and you see other references to the in-universe Sega company that exists in Sonic's world throughout the series, this isn't completely outlandish to just exist.
-

Sega Carnival setting again just seems to take place on a small island on Sonic's planet and just is an in-universe reference to the company that exists only within their universe. The homages make sense if there's actual in-universe media of Sega games and merchandise. There are obviously real looking Nightopians there.

-

Out of universe reference we have the crossover between Sonic Lost World and NiGHTS as being referenced by real life Sega as the actual NiGHTS series, as again noted in the collab screenshot on the official sega website. The quote is as follows: "Sonic Lost World Website: Nightmare A collaborative stage with NIGHTS (the series), set in a dream world. Nightmaren and the Six Demons appear in Sonic's dream! Rescue the dream world deprived of colour!"

The main difference between the NIGHTS DLC and the other two is you actually see Sonic interact to get there, unlike the Yoshi DLC and Zelda DLC being a straight up dropped into the stage without any pretext after going there on the map.

Sonic is animated to lay down and literally sleep while on the Lost Hex to get to the dream world, so other relations of the dream world(s) in prior games are connected at least in the same methodology of needing to sleep to get there. The whole "based on" part is being warped in interpretation to mean its completely different in origin from the series rather than how the interview states on their variation; the Nightmarens aren't 1:1 in their appearances since Gillwing has a red orb as a new part of their body, Jackle is much, much bigger than normal, etc, even though they are from the series as stated. Also, you don't need to finish the game (with the cutscene showing Sonic leaving the Lost Hex on Tails' plane) to access the level. The level is available almost from the start in another version; with it being conceivable its something that occurs while Sonic explores and does stages on the Lost Hex before defeating Eggman and the Deadly Six. I do rather think that this is more than a brief 'cameo' if its of an entire world. And the plot relation has Wizeman actually crafting these worlds to torment Sonic, so there is a bit of background happening.

-

For the dream mechanics stuff to work; there's Sonic Dream Team showing a base property of dreams as well that are apparently operating with Maginaryworld's mechanics, so its not like they contradicting established lore on how dreams work when they already have apparently shown elements beyond how deep dream elements can go and what constitutes a dream in the cosmology. Magination being the liquid essence that dreams boil down (JP raws translate to origin(?) as well as essence) to is different than the Precioustone maintaining a construct out of people's dreams. Now, could the Nights Dimension exist as a variant dream dimension, since we have a multiverse confirmed in Sonic? Probably yeah. Ian Flynn seems to think it operates the same as NiGHTS, and he's done quite a lot of thinking on the subject with them apparently being able to operate fine within the same verse; answer being "probably". I know we treat him badly as a he who shall not be named, but he has done some real thinking on a NiGHTS crossover working in the context of the verse past the Lost World crossover and having an actual pitch he's saving for Sega (can't find the twitter link) and I don't think they are incongruent, this question being a fairly non-powerscaler oriented question. I don't really know what to expect from Crossworlds. Part of me sees them contradicting my outlook on them sharing a universe with the whole 'IP worlds' interviews that they recently had with sega devs, maybe that game releasing will give a better reason to divide them even if my argument holds up here.
-

 

[Starsprite53]

Going to try and respond to the primary evidence stuff for NiGHTS (not going to get into too much secondary stuff I tried to compile, since its a waste of time, was honestly expecting star to post sooner) since this thread seems to be at a standstill with the lengthy responses. I assume we can say the Movieverse has no contention?

-

For the Christmas NiD, the Official Sega Saturn Magazine Uk as a source shouldn't be definitively used as airtight evidence for the crossover having a plot. Prior issues state that they have direct correspondence with Sega (Issue 9 is linked quote being "In true SSM tradition we've got hold of tonnes more pictures, along with more information wrenched straight from the clenched mouth of Sega of Japan."), but the follow up issue 15 its more just introspection for the showcase written by the Editor regarding the lore behind Sonic's appearance there.

Page 4 here of Issue 15 states the disclaimer here (which comes along with the discussed issues): Sega Saturn Magazine is an official license, however the views expressed in this magazine are not necessarily those of the publisher or of Sega. Although we take great care in ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this magazine, the publishers cannot be held responsible for omissions and erros that may occur particularly if it involves Toys R Us."

So now I don't feel comfortable in saying it was a lore fact that he showed up in Christmas NiGHTS by dreaming rather than just a straight cameo or game mode. The other info on the official website says you just play in the dream as Sonic.

Unless there's some other evidence other than that someone wants to push forward though, it shouldn't be used here; it really doesn't contradict anything if Sonic has a zany dream. Wizeman couldve easily came back to life as he said to and made the Nightmaren to frighten Sonic on its own, or the Nightmaren couldve decided to take on that form since some can change their shape to things that look uncanny that visitors to the dream realm are aware of, like in Journey of Dreams a Nightmaren scares Helen with showing her Helen's mom with normal eyes that shift to red eyes.

The april fools mode should completely be struck from the profiles for NiGHTS, there's not an adjacent plot point to it happening and it only was brought up on the profile because it only serves to prove that reala and nights have the same equal abilities, something that is already directly stated in both the japanese christmas nights into dreams manual and the official website. I wholeheartedly don't mind that being removed if that's causing confusion on it being something that actually happens. Also, looking at the official sega website, there is also a statement on the official website that this is just NiGHTS disguised as Reala, so its not even an actual switcheroo to begin with nor a plot centric occurence.

-

For Sonic Adventure's showing, I disagree to say that the entire thing is a fabrication and artificial, ultimately this interpretation came about because I myself was going off some media sources floating the idea you go to the actual place "in NiGHTS last level in his game", but I am in agreement with certain parts being a 'tribute' like the walls showing actual limitations. Graphical limitations aside for how it could be interpreted for the Twin Seeds section since you aren't supposed to be able to collide with the environment's edge there and you go into a building space that shouldn't fit the whole pinball section; you have NiGHTS / Ideya Capture literally spin, floating along there, without any reason of propulsion and staying in the air, and there's no real reason why that's not justifiable evidence of integration of actual magical elements of NiD verse into the Sonic verse, rather than it being mechanical constructs made by humans. The thing about it being optional as a place to visit and run to from the main map doesn't circumvent its just a building that they have in their world, and you see other references to the in-universe Sega company that exists in Sonic's world throughout the series, this isn't completely outlandish to just exist.
-

Sega Carnival setting again just seems to take place on a small island on Sonic's planet and just is an in-universe reference to the company that exists only within their universe. The homages make sense if there's actual in-universe media of Sega games and merchandise. There are obviously real looking Nightopians there.

-

Out of universe reference we have the crossover between Sonic Lost World and NiGHTS as being referenced by real life Sega as the actual NiGHTS series, as again noted in the collab screenshot on the official sega website. The quote is as follows: "Sonic Lost World Website: Nightmare A collaborative stage with NIGHTS (the series), set in a dream world. Nightmaren and the Six Demons appear in Sonic's dream! Rescue the dream world deprived of colour!"

The main difference between the NIGHTS DLC and the other two is you actually see Sonic interact to get there, unlike the Yoshi DLC and Zelda DLC being a straight up dropped into the stage without any pretext after going there on the map.

Sonic is animated to lay down and literally sleep while on the Lost Hex to get to the dream world, so other relations of the dream world(s) in prior games are connected at least in the same methodology of needing to sleep to get there. The whole "based on" part is being warped in interpretation to mean its completely different in origin from the series rather than how the interview states on their variation; the Nightmarens aren't 1:1 in their appearances since Gillwing has a red orb as a new part of their body, Jackle is much, much bigger than normal, etc, even though they are from the series as stated. Also, you don't need to finish the game (with the cutscene showing Sonic leaving the Lost Hex on Tails' plane) to access the level. The level is available almost from the start in another version; with it being conceivable its something that occurs while Sonic explores and does stages on the Lost Hex before defeating Eggman and the Deadly Six. I do rather think that this is more than a brief 'cameo' if its of an entire world. And the plot relation has Wizeman actually crafting these worlds to torment Sonic, so there is a bit of background happening.

-

For the dream mechanics stuff to work; there's Sonic Dream Team showing a base property of dreams as well that are apparently operating with Maginaryworld's mechanics, so its not like they contradicting established lore on how dreams work when they already have apparently shown elements beyond how deep dream elements can go and what constitutes a dream in the cosmology. Magination being the liquid essence that dreams boil down (JP raws translate to origin(?) as well as essence) to is different than the Precioustone maintaining a construct out of people's dreams. Now, could the Nights Dimension exist as a variant dream dimension, since we have a multiverse confirmed in Sonic? Probably yeah. Ian Flynn seems to think it operates the same as NiGHTS, and he's done quite a lot of thinking on the subject with them apparently being able to operate fine within the same verse; answer being "probably". I know we treat him badly as a he who shall not be named, but he has done some real thinking on a NiGHTS crossover working in the context of the verse past the Lost World crossover and having an actual pitch he's saving for Sega (can't find the twitter link) and I don't think they are incongruent, this question being a fairly non-powerscaler oriented question. I don't really know what to expect from Crossworlds. Part of me sees them contradicting my outlook on them sharing a universe with the whole 'IP worlds' interviews that they recently had with sega devs, maybe that game releasing will give a better reason to divide them even if my argument holds up here.
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Ok I'm impressed while reading this, going to reply to it tommorow tho (Good Job regardless).

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

i agree

 

[ShakeResounding]

Bump.

I still overall agree with Merlight over Starsprite, there is nothing inherently contradictory between Sonic's dream cosmology and NiGHTS' dream cosmology. Not every detail needs to be shared between them or be exactly the same, especially when their adventures are stemming from fundamentally differing objectives.

 

[LukeChaosBlobz]

I agree with NiGHTS being added due to Merlight’s points

 

[Omegabronic]

bump

 

[Starsprite53]

I legit forgor about this!
I will reply today (Edit:Or tommorow I'm so sorry it's just I'm busy with University stuff ) hopefully (At least Merlight agreeing on some of my points will make my rebuttal shorter espacially when most of the points are debunked).

 

[Mephistus]

Haven't really bothered to update the blog till most of this is hashed out. I do think crosswords provides some additional evidence for Nights since there's stuff out side gameplay but bump.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Minor Bump.

 

[Zenith_Enigma]

Seems good.

 

[Omegabronic]

Bump

 

[Omegabronic]

bump

 

[Omegabronic]

Bump

 

[Omegabronic]

bump

 

[Omegabronic]

bump

 

[Omegabronic]

bump

 

[Omegabronic]

bump

 

[Mephistus]

According to an obscure as fork magazine which had a developer interview with Yuji Naka in japanese (old); sonic did indeed dream in the official lore to go to NiGHTS' world in Christmas NiGHTS. So now I am fine with the addition since we had trouble with two sided crossover connections.



"Present 6 Sonic
Sonic who had a nightmare has wandered into the Nights World?!
Sonic made by the Sonic Team themselves finally makes his Saturn debut! You can play Nights's dream with Sonic.

Nights Point 3
Run through the world of dreams with Sonic!!
Sonic, who ended up making a special appearance as "Surely even Sonic would dream (Naka)". He can't fly through the sky like Nights, but in exchange, he can run through Christmas Spring Valley without a time limit. Go run around!

Magazine: The big draw of it is Sonic appearing, but is that with a new one?
Naka: Sonic's model itelf is something I made at the time of Nights, thinking I'd put it in as a secret. But at the time, we didn't have the spare time to put in bonuses like that, so it's like we've added in the part that was left undone. Since surely even Sonic would dream (laughs)."

I can update the blog if this is accepted

 

[Omegabronic]

bump

 

[Omegabronic]

bump

 

[Hypercyber37]

"Everything is canon" real

Agree

 

[Omegabronic]

bump

.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Agree with the proposals.

 

[Omegabronic]

bump

 

[Omegabronic]

Going to wait until Star replies to OP's most recent arguments.

Did you decide on a stance by any chance?

 

[Omegabronic]

bump

 

[Starsprite53]

Unless there's some other evidence other than that someone wants to push forward though, it shouldn't be used here; it really doesn't contradict anything if Sonic has a zany dream. Wizeman couldve easily came back to life as he said to and made the Nightmaren to frighten Sonic on its own, or the Nightmaren couldve decided to take on that form since some can change their shape to things that look uncanny that visitors to the dream realm are aware of, like in Journey of Dreams a Nightmaren scares Helen with showing her Helen's mom with normal eyes that shift to red eyes.

But wasn't it outright stated to be Eggman? Correct me if I'm wrong.

For Sonic Adventure's showing, I disagree to say that the entire thing is a fabrication and artificial, ultimately this interpretation came about because I myself was going off some media sources floating the idea you go to the actual place "in NiGHTS last level in his game", but I am in agreement with certain parts being a 'tribute' like the walls showing actual limitations. Graphical limitations aside for how it could be interpreted for the Twin Seeds section since you aren't supposed to be able to collide with the environment's edge there and you go into a building space that shouldn't fit the whole pinball section; you have NiGHTS / Ideya Capture literally spin, floating along there, without any reason of propulsion and staying in the air, and there's no real reason why that's not justifiable evidence of integration of actual magical elements of NiD verse into the Sonic verse, rather than it being mechanical constructs made by humans. The thing about it being optional as a place to visit and run to from the main map doesn't circumvent its just a building that they have in their world, and you see other references to the in-universe Sega company that exists in Sonic's world throughout the series, this isn't completely outlandish to just exist.

Excuuuse me, but I still don’t really agree with that reading. I’m glad we’re on the same page about parts of it being a tribute, but that’s kind of where it stops for me. The Twin Seeds section is very clearly a miniaturized representation inside a beeeeg pinball (Mind you it shows the warp tunnels as artificial as well), and the entire thing is framed as being physically inside a casino the walls and ceiling are plainly visible. That strongly signals themed attraction TBH. That and the design and building choices are very suspicious and alluding to something that's intended to not be the actual thing (It's not even a graphical limitation when the sky is a literal polygone wall that consumes more resources than a usual background)
Pointing to NiGHTS or Ideya Capture floating around isn’t much of a gotcha either, because at that point we’re already dealing with a stylized representation. Sonic’s world is full of absurdly advanced tech and visual theatrics, so floating figures or effects don’t suddenly imply genuine Night Dimension magic leaking into a random casino in a random city. The cards with Claris and Elliot on them honestly make this clearer, they’re treated like products or merch, like come on dude.
And if anything, bringing up in-universe SEGA references actually weakens the case. Sonic games (and other sega games, God knows how much I brought that) constantly acknowledge a fictionalized SEGA and other Sega IPs through ads, billboards, and themed spaces. That’s something Sega has always loved doing, and it’s almost always fanservice rather than serious lore integration. So when you put all of this together, it looks far more like a celebration and aesthetic homage than evidence that the actual NiGHTS world is canonically embedded into Sonic’s world .

seems to take place on a small island on Sonic's planet and just is an in-universe reference to the company that exists only within their universe. The homages make sense if there's actual in-universe media of Sega games and merchandise. There are obviously real looking Nightopians there.

Your point is?

The main difference between the NIGHTS DLC and the other two is you actually see Sonic interact to get there, unlike the Yoshi DLC and Zelda DLC being a straight up dropped into the stage without any pretext after going there on the map.

I'm sorry but I feel like this is kinda a strectch because this happens in a hub select stage. If anything Sonic also interact to get to these places, as we see the stages (or portals idk) floating and Sonic goes to them by his feet. Plus NiGHTS's stage is a dream world, so of course Sonic had to dream to get to there, while the other places are physically within the same space as Sonic. Pointing that having to dream to go to a dream world is like stating the obvious. It's not like all DLCs are unlocked at the same time in the same way.

Sonic is animated to lay down and literally sleep while on the Lost Hex to get to the dream world, so other relations of the dream world(s) in prior games are connected at least in the same methodology of needing to sleep to get there. The whole "based on" part is being warped in interpretation to mean its completely different in origin from the series rather than how the interview states on their variation; the Nightmarens aren't 1:1 in their appearances since Gillwing has a red orb as a new part of their body, Jackle is much, much bigger than normal, etc, even though they are from the series as stated. Also, you don't need to finish the game (with the cutscene showing Sonic leaving the Lost Hex on Tails' plane) to access the level. The level is available almost from the start in another version; with it being conceivable its something that occurs while Sonic explores and does stages on the Lost Hex before defeating Eggman and the Deadly Six. I do rather think that this is more than a brief 'cameo' if its of an entire world. And the plot relation has Wizeman actually crafting these worlds to torment Sonic, so there is a bit of background happening.

Thanks for pointing that out, because for me it actually reinforces the opposite conclusion. The fact that the NiGHTS DLC can be unlocked and played at any point in the game is a big red flag for canonicity. If you can access it from the sstart, it makes no sense narratively because Sonic and the entire Deadly six would be meeting with zero setup and zero acknowledgement, while anywhere else in the story their meeting should be different. If you play it mid-game, it’s just as odd for Sonic to suddenly backtrack to the first area and take a nap while the story is moving. And if you play it after the ending, that also creates its own problems too, as I mentioned in past messages. No matter where you place it, it doesn’t fit cleanly into the timeline, which is usually a pretty strong indicator that we’re dealing with optional bonus content rather than a real story event. This is common in many games.
Mind you that ties into the bigger issue: Zero relevence, there are no cutscenes, no dialogue changes, no character reactions, and no callbacks at all. Sonic never references Wizeman elsewhere, the Deadly Six never react to a dream god suddenly popping up and summoning them, and nothing about the DLC feeds back into the main plot. That’s not how canon story content is usually treated (mayhaps).
As for other stuff, again, Sonic sleeping to enter the stage doesn’t really solve that either, “dream access” is a common framing device, and a method doesn’t forcibly imply sharing the same cosmology.

For the dream mechanics stuff to work; there's Sonic Dream Team showing a base property of dreams as well that are apparently operating with Maginaryworld's mechanics, so its not like they contradicting established lore on how dreams work when they already have apparently shown elements beyond how deep dream elements can go and what constitutes a dream in the cosmology. Magination being the liquid essence that dreams boil down (JP raws translate to origin(?) as well as essence) to is different than the Precioustone maintaining a construct out of people's dreams. Now, could the Nights Dimension exist as a variant dream dimension, since we have a multiverse confirmed in Sonic? Probably yeah. Ian Flynn seems to think it operates the same as NiGHTS, and he's done quite a lot of thinking on the subject with them apparently being able to operate fine within the same verse; answer being "probably". I know we treat him badly as a he who shall not be named, but he has done some real thinking on a NiGHTS crossover working in the context of the verse past the Lost World crossover and having an actual pitch he's saving for Sega (can't find the twitter link) and I don't think they are incongruent, this question being a fairly non-powerscaler oriented question. I don't really know what to expect from Crossworlds. Part of me sees them contradicting my outlook on them sharing a universe with the whole 'IP worlds' interviews that they recently had with sega devs, maybe that game releasing will give a better reason to divide them even if my argument holds up here.

I already knew you would talk about that (Idk why I said this when I already told you that on Discord, perhaps for a dramatic effect)
Anyways, I don’t think this really holds up once you look at what this example actually is though. The Reverie in Sonic Dream Team is explicitly framed as a very specific, artificial construct, an artifact created by someone within Sonic’s world, with its own rules, proportions, and limitations. It even has a Dormancy Protocol that prevents dreams from becoming reality for a thousand years, which already sets it apart. In other words, Dream Team isn’t establishing some universal rule for how all dreams work across the cosmology, it’s showing an isolated system with its own mechanics, like what you said, just for the dreams of who came in contact with the Reverie .
Saying “there’s a multiverse, so the NiGHTS Dimension could exist as a variant dream world” is technically possible and I want to entertain it, but that’s not the same thing as being supported (I explained that in a message in the other page). Possibility isn’t evidence, plus using Le Multiverse as an excuse while smart, openminded and understandable, isn't a proof. And Ian Flynn’s thoughts, while interesting, are still just that ideas and pitches smh. He himself tends to frame these things as hypothetical or conceptual and not definitive statements about the setting. So while it’s fun to imagine how NiGHTS could be integrated someday, none of this retroactively makes earlier cameos canon-compatible by default. At best, it shows Sega is open to playing with that sort of stuff. I think it’s important to be careful not to smooth over differences just because the ideas sound similar on the surface.

According to an obscure as fork magazine which had a developer interview with Yuji Naka in japanese (old); sonic did indeed dream in the official lore to go to NiGHTS' world in Christmas NiGHTS. So now I am fine with the addition since we had trouble with two sided crossover connections.



"Present 6 Sonic
Sonic who had a nightmare has wandered into the Nights World?!
Sonic made by the Sonic Team themselves finally makes his Saturn debut! You can play Nights's dream with Sonic.

Nights Point 3
Run through the world of dreams with Sonic!!
Sonic, who ended up making a special appearance as "Surely even Sonic would dream (Naka)". He can't fly through the sky like Nights, but in exchange, he can run through Christmas Spring Valley without a time limit. Go run around!

Magazine: The big draw of it is Sonic appearing, but is that with a new one?
Naka: Sonic's model itelf is something I made at the time of Nights, thinking I'd put it in as a secret. But at the time, we didn't have the spare time to put in bonuses like that, so it's like we've added in the part that was left undone. Since surely even Sonic would dream (laughs)."

I can update the blog if this is accepted

This looks like they're talking about the crossover, which is cool I guess? Mind explaining how this is about canonicity?


Also, I'm sooooooooooooooo Sorry for sending this late, I wrote this in different days (You might notice some incoherence) and I was so busy that I got a little bit of help from my friend. Thanks for waiting all this long btw.

 

[Omegabronic]

bump

 

[Omegabronic]

bump

 

[Omegabronic]

bump

 

[Reiner04]

Proposal seems fine.

 

[Omegabronic]

pages affected are... already in the OP; The Cosmology page and the Navibox, as well as notes in the Sonic Movie Continuity page and NITD verse page

 

[Armorchompy]

I find Starsprite's points fairly compelling, most of these crossovers don't seem all that well-justified as canonical events. At the very least I'd like an answer to them before the thread is concluded.

 

[Sparkive]

bump

 

[Sparkive]

Bump?

 

[MysticMania]

I just came across this. It won't affect anything to say I agree with keeping NiGHTS and SONIC united in canon and also the movie stuff being in the multiverse. CrossWorlds does treat the characters as canonically being present from what I can see, and today's TailsTube gives context that post-launch racers are here to partake in a new Grand Prix.
Bump, as well.

 

[Starsprite53]

I just came across this. It won't affect anything to say I agree with keeping NiGHTS and SONIC united in canon and also the movie stuff being in the multiverse. CrossWorlds does treat the characters as canonically being present from what I can see, and today's TailsTube gives context that post-launch racers are here to partake in a new Grand Prix.
Bump, as well.

Does it, though? I don’t see any explicit mention of crossover characters there. Even if CrossWorlds treats guest racers as present for the event, that applies to characters like SpongeBob or Hatsune Miku not specifically NiGHTS. I’ve already addressed the arguments presented in the thread and how it's problamatic; it’s more consistent with Sega (and other companies) doing standard IP cross-promotion, not serious canon Integration or something

 

[Mephistus]

But wasn't it outright stated to be Eggman? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Double checking on the website they do yes ("エッグマン" is "Eggman" in Japanese), this would be a nominal fallacy if they are just sharing a name; he doesn't have legs, I'm not sure why it consequential to prove he's a parody and not an in actuality a nightmaren if its something very much in nightmaren behavior to shapeshift into known things/people in the real world.

Excuuuse me, but I still don’t really agree with that reading. I’m glad we’re on the same page about parts of it being a tribute, but that’s kind of where it stops for me. The Twin Seeds section is very clearly a miniaturized representation inside a beeeeg pinball (Mind you it shows the warp tunnels as artificial as well), and the entire thing is framed as being physically inside a casino the walls and ceiling are plainly visible. That strongly signals themed attraction TBH. That and the design and building choices are very suspicious and alluding to something that's intended to not be the actual thing (It's not even a graphical limitation when the sky is a literal polygone wall that consumes more resources than a usual background)
Pointing to NiGHTS or Ideya Capture floating around isn’t much of a gotcha either, because at that point we’re already dealing with a stylized representation. Sonic’s world is full of absurdly advanced tech and visual theatrics, so floating figures or effects don’t suddenly imply genuine Night Dimension magic leaking into a random casino in a random city. The cards with Claris and Elliot on them honestly make this clearer, they’re treated like products or merch, like come on dude.
And if anything, bringing up in-universe SEGA references actually weakens the case. Sonic games (and other sega games, God knows how much I brought that) constantly acknowledge a fictionalized SEGA and other Sega IPs through ads, billboards, and themed spaces. That’s something Sega has always loved doing, and it’s almost always fanservice rather than serious lore integration. So when you put all of this together, it looks far more like a celebration and aesthetic homage than evidence that the actual NiGHTS world is canonically embedded into Sonic’s world .

I don't mind conceding to most of this given the tech part being a factor (floating on its own suddenly isn't so special but Tails hyping up extreme gears is something talked like its beyond current modern tech so that still sounds horrible to use as an argument, ignoring that you teleport back and forth to the pinball stage with tech and station square isn't a futuristic ?), but according to here (Today is the 26th anniversary of the release of #Sonic's sister title, NiGHTS into Dreams... Actually, since Sonic Adventure, NiGHTS has made cameo appearances in the Sonic series multiple times Are there any cameo appearances that surprised you all? Whether NiGHTS or Sonic ) & especially here ("Over the years, NiGHTS made appearances in several Sega titles...", while showing the game "Sonic Adventure"), they reference its the NiGHTS in the flesh showing up there, not like a robot/hologram NiGHTS, at least in that respect.

Your point is?

Like Sonic having a video game(s) of his own of himself by the Sega company in his universe, doesn't mean he's not a real character in the verse. I don't think I have to entertain other characters series being canon here with two-sided content, but homages are made by their in-universe SEGA aren't antithetical to them just being a thing in their universe, especially now that the multiverse is properly already introduced via possibilities in TailsTube, non-canonical knockoff versions of those characters. This stage in particular indicates that this other series referencing stuff by Sega's Series is really in rampant but the stage does tie into the plot post-game with the black hole.

I'm sorry but I feel like this is kinda a strectch because this happens in a hub select stage. If anything Sonic also interact to get to these places, as we see the stages (or portals idk) floating and Sonic goes to them by his feet. Plus NiGHTS's stage is a dream world, so of course Sonic had to dream to get to there, while the other places are physically within the same space as Sonic. Pointing that having to dream to go to a dream world is like stating the obvious. It's not like all DLCs are unlocked at the same time in the same way.

Kind of a stonewall, given how there's already Sonic walking into a portal to get to Maginaryworld and Eggman following them to get there, and that in the sense that the dream worlds in Sonic are literal real dimensions rather than a non-physical plane; its not like dimensional travel isn't very much a thing in Sonic's verse from everything to getting to Special Stages. They could've pulled out the Chaos Emeralds to warp there; teleportation machinery, Warp Rings etc. If its just a cutesy collab stage, then the character interaction to get there would just be inconsequential to just straight jumping to the stage and forgoing any sort of necessary plot segment, ergo the LoZ stage.

The developer interview statement (also ig the translation of the official transcript here says he got there in his sleep (NoE: What can you tell the fans about the Dreadful Six edition on Wii U? DC: The Dreadful Six Edition contains exclusive downloadable content, called the Nightmare DLC, and has its own exclusive case. In short, Sonic's worst nightmares come to life. The Dreadful Six appear as large monsters in his sleep, and he must fight them.) , indicating it was an actual canon event action outside the hub representing Sonic's actions)

In the literal sense, they wouldn't be portals on the hub select stage. Sonic in the promo ad jumps into a blue pipe from Windy Hill, showing at least something other than a straight transition. LoZ he's switching outfits and all that jazz without carrying back his outfit when completing the stage and its just a straight up transition.

Also someone took this to heart and made a youtube video outlining this canonicity and having fun. Hahaha.

Thanks for pointing that out, because for me it actually reinforces the opposite conclusion. The fact that the NiGHTS DLC can be unlocked and played at any point in the game is a big red flag for canonicity. If you can access it from the sstart, it makes no sense narratively because Sonic and the entire Deadly six would be meeting with zero setup and zero acknowledgement, while anywhere else in the story their meeting should be different. If you play it mid-game, it’s just as odd for Sonic to suddenly backtrack to the first area and take a nap while the story is moving. And if you play it after the ending, that also creates its own problems too, as I mentioned in past messages. No matter where you place it, it doesn’t fit cleanly into the timeline, which is usually a pretty strong indicator that we’re dealing with optional bonus content rather than a real story event. This is common in many games.
Mind you that ties into the bigger issue: Zero relevence, there are no cutscenes, no dialogue changes, no character reactions, and no callbacks at all. Sonic never references Wizeman elsewhere, the Deadly Six never react to a dream god suddenly popping up and summoning them, and nothing about the DLC feeds back into the main plot. That’s not how canon story content is usually treated (mayhaps).
As for other stuff, again, Sonic sleeping to enter the stage doesn’t really solve that either, “dream access” is a common framing device, and a method doesn’t forcibly imply sharing the same cosmology.

I'm not sure if the Wii U version usurps the Deadly Six Edition/Steam version here in terms of "canon", checking the official timeline on Sega's website and the Flynn Encyclopedia.

For the sake of both sides;

On the argument with it being accessible from the get go, for as long as the Zeti have been around for prior to Sonic being born and having nightmares of their own that Wizeman could've observed, Wizeman could've noticed Sonic was dreaming about the Lost Hex prior to him getting spirited away to Nightmare and decided to have fun making clones of the scary "demon" residents that live there even though Sonic had yet to meet them. The deadly six knockoff creations by Wizeman making sense in context of more relies on Wizeman's knowledge of the Deadly Six's relationship to Sonic and what would best scare him, rather than Sonic absolutely having to know about the Deadly Six to dream them up organically.

With it being unlocked in the post-game, Tails very pointedly states that he had tested himself before in Hidden World, in Crossworlds, so there was post-game exploration of the Lost Hex in a non-meta sense to reach that area past the Lava Mountain area and certain levels can be skipped to be visited later iirc, besides stuff like the Circus post Tails being saved.

It is messy to try fit together the two series, but I think its not being really argued strongly against by what's been provided. We already have Archie Sonic nonsense with Worlds Unite series having a Maginaryworld and a Night Dimension with both being dream realms not being subcontainers of each other; with there being like a bubble multiverse deal where the multiverses bubbles are not overlapping with the infinitum
possibilities of each other and staying on their branches. The Reverie being an example of such a closed system where it can perfectly operate without Maginaryworld sucking the dreams from there.

The magazine point is supposed to matter since Naka worked on Sonic and has (had) authorial power in worldbuilding. Its screened/official/professional interview WoG indicating the mainstream Sonic was actually doing something to get there plotwise and its not just an unexplained "bonus mode section" as you've pointed out before.

I don't think you get a clarified answer on this from Sega short of Crossworlds promotional comics / Tailstube showing and exposition a connected knockoff sega multiverse/universes, so ig this is me exhausting my interest on this topic with this post. There's some notes on the youtube video here indicating those extra characters exists in some outside context of their universe?: Sonic Racing: CrossWorlds offers the series' biggest roster to date, featuring 23 characters from the Sonic series! Racers from beyond the Sonic universe—Hatsune Miku, Joker (Persona 5 Royal), and Ichiban Kasuga (Like a Dragon)—will arrive via a free update! Expect more to come in future free updates.

Anyways, hopefully this helps steer the thread at least a bit.

 

[MysticMania]

To my understanding, NiGHTS is from the Night Dimension which is cosmologically outside of the multiverse ( in some way at least. ). So in terms of "are they from the same world", this question more so asks of Sonic and Claris more than Sonic and NiGHTS. This isn't an issue though, since they can just as easily be from different universes within the same multiverse in my eyes. NiGHTS and Sonic are already world jumpers in many games, and the plot of NiTD and Journey of Dreams is already technically about NiGHTS interacting with a world that isn't their own, being Claris' and then the british children.
Nightmare a space inside of Night Dimension, and like its dream counterpart of Fourth Dimension Space from Sonic Shuffle, it should contain all nightmares across the multiverse. So Sonic's nightmare leading him to Nightmare in Christmas NiGHTS and Sonic Lost World does work.