says who? i don't necessarily disagree, but you can't just affirm arbitraly rules about what can be "canon" or not, show anything about our rules that suggest this
But I'm not making an rules, I'm talking about something that happens in %99 of crossovers, you're not proving something unusual that could led to connecting them.
Tell me the lore reason given for Spongebob to appear... oh wait, we don't have it
So no, you are incorrect... and you do realize that in this both, both characters appeared and interacted with eachother in both their games, right?
Maybe because the game haven't released yet? Are you being honest rn? (Plus we kinda have the reason why)
Sonic never interacted with NiGHTS in the satrun game, and again the second interaction is within a DLC in a game where he also interacts with Yoshi and Link, your point is?
Being silly somehow arbitraraly makes it not valid for some reason?
It just makes the deal less seriously (Like Eggman being a Nightmaren? Really?)
Nightmarens can always come back as long as Darkness exists in humanity, Wizeman said so himself, so this is a no issue
Eggman invading another realm to do stuff in it in pretty normal for him, it doesn't disqualify
Why are you lying? He was talking about himself.
I love it when Eggman changes physiology out of nowhere.
and yeah, there is follow up, with Nights appearing again, in lore, for Sonic Lost World for example, outside of other appearences like in Sonic Runners
What lore? You mean a DLC where it can be unlocked with
1000000 points? Where is the lore in that? Espacially when Sonic left
Lost Hex, and there is no explanation why he has to go way back to Windy hill for just that.
None of this matters for the topic of canonicity, which you still need to prove, as all you said so far fitted the standards you set up yourself
Yes it does, you literally unlocked it in non story mode section where you also unlock easter egg stuff.
Hyper Sonic is equally a bonus, still canon
Knuckles is another mode in a similar fashion in Sonic and Knuckles
again, none of this has any bearing on canonicity whatsoever, i don't know where did the mentality that "bonus = non canon" came from, if you want to affirm it is non canon... prove it
Hyper Sonic isn't equally a bonus, why are you being dishonest?
You literally unlock it in the main game.
No, Knuckles isn't another mode in a similar fashion, it's part of the lore and referenced and actually is the continuation of Sonic's story where you can play it in the same menu, that's literally why the game is literally named Sonic
& Knuckles, that's the point of it.
But you do realize that is justified as being an alternate reality, right? Like, yeah, that's canon as well, it is just another World where Reala takes Nights place, have you read Nights' profile?
No it wasn't, that's fanfiction on your part rn, it's literally
April fools mode, it's suppose
"Random Kids" who directly helped Nights in their journey, yeah... i don'r see the issue? If they know Nights and what they did... then they know the two kids who helped him save the dreams as well, simple as that
Yeah… and that somehow translates to the general public from another universe knowing them, because? That’s a massive leap. even Helen and Will, characters who actually met NiGHTS, don’t know who Claris and Elliot are, why on earth would some random civilians in Sonic’s world recognize them? This isn’t just a stretch, it’s Omental gymnastics. You’re making an extraordinary claim, so back it up with something other than headcanon. Where’s the in-universe explanation that justifies that recognition? Other than being a fictional franchise?
Same reason Sonic had his face on the casinos and several of his friends and Eggman... they are simple famous in this world and people profit of it, it is that simple
The fact that you see no problem in Sonic having the same situation is weird to me
This shit falls apart under basic scrutiny. Sonic, Eggman, and his friends having their faces plastered everywhere makes sense, they’re ******* famous, publicly known figures in their own world.He’s savd the world multiple times. Merchandising his image in casinos or theme parks fits naturally into the setting. But Claris and Elliot? They’re just ordinary kids from another franchise entirely, whose adventures happened in a
dream worlds of a completely different verse. They’re not public heroes. There’s zero indication anyone in Sonic’s world even knows who they are, let alone enough for their faces to be massproduced on playing cards in a pinball machine.
Trying to equate Sonic’s fame to NiGHTS is a false equivalence. One is ******* in-universe celebrity branding. The other? You know the rest. You also Ignored how there are NiGHTS and other Sega IPs marchandises in Shemenue and Yakuza.
Which proves that these characters exist and are known in Sonic's world, proving that they exist canonically
What???????????????????
That logic is completely backwards, That’s like saying a Sonic-themed amusement park in our real world proves Sonic is real. Omega, look, this is straight-up moving the goalposts. The original claim was that this is Nightopia, proving Sonic and NiGHTS share a cosmology. But now that it’s frogging clear the place is artificial with casino walls, a roomssized city, and a themepark vibe, you’ve flipped the arg to, “Well, it’s a tribute, so it still shows they exist.” You can’t just bounce between those. If it’s the real Nightopia, it shouldn’t look like a tacky casino attraction. If it’s a fake, it’s just a nod, not foreshadowing canonicity between two completety different franchises. Switching from “this is literally Nightopia” to “this proves they exist in-universe because people know them” isn’t just inconsistent, it’s a dodge. For the love of Omegamon please pick a lane.
doesn't matter much for canonicty, still proves that it is canon that they exist, else how would they know these characters at all?
Read above
Hmm maybe because referencing a character =/= proving that character exists in-universe. It only proves that Sega loves throwing in Easter eggs and you’re reading too deep into it, or maybe they are fictional characters? In the same way they are in Yakuza (From the arcades to dreams dreams song in a store)
... how does one disprove the other?
How does being a celebration disprove it being a shared canon?
Because being a celebration explicitly means it’s not part of canon, it's literally called SEGA carnival, it’s a crossover made for fun, not a lore-driven integration. The stage and guest characters don’t appear in the main story mode or narrative content. This kind of thing is extremely common in competition or party style games. Link is playable in Mario Kart 8, Pac-Man appears in Mario Kart Arcade GP, Sonic has a costume in Mario Kart 8. Mega Man and Pac-Man are playable in Street Fighter X Tekken. Spongebob is playable in Sonic crossworlds with his stage. These are all guest appearances, they exist purely as cross-promotional fun, not because the characters canonically exist in the same universe.
If your entire argument hinges on a guest character appearing in a non-story mode, then it’s a weak foundation. Cuz it isn’t some rare exceptional case. it’s a well-known trope across the industry(Even within SEGA itself).you’re trying to argue something extraordinary, without extraordinary evidence.
Says you? Give me a reason to adhere to your made standards, i see nothing about this on the crossover page
It’s not just my standard it’s how crossovers have consistently worked across the entire entertainement media industry. And the fact is, the burden of proof is on you to explain why this even matters here, espacially when it's not present on the page. You don’t get to treat “they said they came from X and they had a rough childhood” like some huge revelation unless you’re also ready to call every
Smash Bros, Fortnite, and all crossover games guest appearance canon, and good luck justifying that without sounding absurd.
K... guess they are canon to, your point?
Prove it.
Supporting evidence shouldn't be isolated as if it was main evidence
I'm not doing that, nice try tho.
????? By this you mean? It disproves Sonic and Nights literally meeting exactly like in the past how?
Sonic never met NiGHTS canonically in the past.
Same creators, that't why
seriously, did you read our crossover rules?
It isn't selective at all, it is just adhering for our crossover rules
Yeah, both were developed by Sega, but that’s not a narrative connection. If we go by that logic, then Yakuza, Super Monkey Ball, and Space Channel 5 are all canon to Sonic too, which we both know sounds absurd. The rules clearly state that canon crossovers must “officially take place within
both continuities, and as
such recurrently happen within a shared universe or
feature characters made by the same creators.” But NiGHTS appearances in Sonic games aren’t recurrent story events, they’re cameos, bonus stages, or fun DLC nods. There’s no ongoing story integration, no shared lore, and certainly no consistent world-building to connect the two. You can’t just handwave that away with “same creators,” especially when the rule explicitly demands narrative consistency, which is nowhere to be found here. And yeah, seeing NiGHTS in a racing game alongside other Sega icons or as a pinball table skin is charming fan-service, but that’s all it is. If we start calling every guest cameo with a splash of backstory “canon,” then we might as well throw the entire idea of continuity out the window. What makes it worse is that 95% of the NiGHTS/Sonic crossovers happen on Sonic’s side, usually in celebration type content, while Sonic is completely absent from Journey of Dreams, a core, lore heavy entry in the NiGHTS series. So no, I’m not ignoring the rule, I did read it, I’m just not twisting them to force a connection that isn’t actually there.
.... have you ever read
Night's profile at all?
Nightmarens revive, they always come back, so yeah, it does make sense
Have you actually played the games? Because no, Nightmarens don’t just “always come back,” especially not when they’ve been explicitly erased by their creator. The only one we see return is NiGHTS, and that’s for specific, narrative-driven reasons. First off, NiGHTS is a First-Level Nightmaren, stronger than second-level ones. He’s also unique because he was the first and only one to be born with free will and chose to rebel against Wizeman, living with Nightopia instead of Nightmare. That’s a major plot point. And let’s not forget, NiGHTS wasn’t destroyed randomly, his erasure was the direct result of Wizeman’s death. So when Wizeman returns, it makes perfect sense that NiGHTS comes back too. It mirrors scenarios in fiction where the destruction of a source (like Wizeman) causes everything tied to it to collapse, and when that source reboots, so does everything it’s intrinsically linked to. Much like when the system goes down, everything shuts off. when it reboots, key elements tied to its core come back online. That’s NiGHTS. Or we can assume he came back due to his established free will.
He also has a beef with Sonic, considering he tried to stop him in the past as seen by Sonic into Dreams
aka, more consistency for the already consistent crossovers
Sorry, but that’s just flat-out wrong. Sonic never meets Wizeman in Sonic into Dreams, Wizeman doesn’t even show up. Sonic fights Eggman, plain and simple. Whether it’s a dream projection Eggman, a Nightmaren, or just a reskinned boss, doesn’t change the fact that it’s not Wizeman. There’s no encounter, no dialogue, no interaction, nothing. Claiming they meet and spinning it as “consistency” for some sus narrative is pure bs. If your argument held water, you wouldn’t need to invent interactions or dodge sources. But there’s nothing to cite. Calling this “more consistency for already consistent crossovers” is just fluffing up misinformation with fancy words. It’s a stretch, and it doesn’t hold up. But to make this worse: it took two full games before Wizeman ever went after NiGHTS directly (and that’s someone who not only defeated multiple Nightmarens but literally rebelled against Wizeman face to face). NiGHTS is a first-level Nightmaren who betrayed his own master, yet even then, Wizeman took his time before acting. Now suddenly, we’re supposed to believe he just shows up in a random hedgehog’s dream out of nowhere personally with no buildup and no motivation and even classic Nightmarens come back, but based on what he does in journey of dreams, he explicitly erases for those failing him? it’s wildly out of character. It goes against what the series established about Wizeman’s behavior.
Maybe because it's not a part of the main story mode? It could be canon, but that's not my main concern, espacially in the same mini game you see a
SEGA building.
... Your point? This matters ho
It doesn't matter and that’s exactly the point. You can’t cherry pick cameo appearances and force them as canon unless you're willing to apply that logic universally. NiGHTS showing up flying around in Phantasy Star Online is the same type of Easter egg as in Sonic Battle a fun reference, not narrative relevent, aka something Sega always loves to do.
hence it being supporting evidence
At this point you're just trolling.
If it is non canon... why are you mentioning it at all?
Idk, maybe direct that feedback to Merlight, not me, especially since they mentioned a detail I can’t see in their source. I have every right to point that out
Not sure how this doesn't help? Other franchises being canon as well is problem cuz?
also this is supporting evidence
You’re not addressing the actual point. That’s a deflection
This matters how? They are different franchises much like Street Fighter and Slam Masters... both are still canon to one another
This proves nothing
So funny you brought up Street Fighter and Slam Masters, because you kinda shot yourself in the foot with that example. While sure, they do have some surface-level references, what actually makes them canon to each other is the clear narrative and
lore ties that are part of the actual world-building. And just to top it all off, Takayuki Nakayama, director of Street Fighter V and VI,
literally confirmed they share a universe lmfao. That’s the key difference here, official confirmation and narrative integration, not just cameos or background nods.
It is a separate franchise... Dr. Slump and Dragon Ball also equally are separate frachises
Being different franchises doesn't disqualify from being canon to one another
I love how you're resorting to whataboutisms now when back then you were calling me out for doing the same thing.
And I'm sure that's a different case since
you know,
not sure why is this an analogy in the first place, video games treat cameos differently than anime
The megazine is also wrong, Sonic elements do appear... as you know, Sonic into Dreams is a thing?
The magazine is wrong? Dude that's just the interview page, aka Word of God, what are you talking about? Sonic into Dreams isn't included in this game, but rather another version that was released months later.
But if it isn't enough for you:
SSM Why did you decide not to develop a Sonic the Hedgehog game for the Saturn?
Sonic Team:Basically, with regard to Sonic, we've been involved in the sonic series for nearly four years. five years. We felt that it about time to create something different In addition, we wanted to recharge our ideas, gather them together and evolve beyond Sonic and create something different.
The precioustone is "the very feelings alowing Dreams to exist"
it is never called "the physical manifestation of dreams" at all
It's the crystallization of everyone's dreams.
That is never said, the Ideya light creates Nightopia, not specifically the Red one
Please.
Play.
TheGame
Most of the story revolves around Will and Helen losing their Ideya to the Nightmarens and working to recover them.(But you're half right, they are still important for the stability of nightopias)
Not really? Not only are the dream worlds in Shuffle never said to be Nightopias, so no contradiction to their creation method, but contrary to Nights, the ones in MW are created by the precioustone, Nightopias are made from Visitors using Ideyas
So there is no contradictions, they are simply both showing different kinds of dreamworlds, the ones in Shuffle are general dreams shared by objectives of several people, Nightopias are particular, created by a singular person with their own individual Ideya
You cannot point at two different things being different and say it is a contradiction, cause it isn't
You're actually proving my point without realizing it. You're saying "they're just different kinds of dream worlds"exactly. that's the separation I'm talking about lol. If Shuffle’s dream worlds operate under a totally different cosmology, with dreams being created and maintained by the Precioustone rather than Ideya, that means the fundamental rules of how dreams work are incompatible. You can't just handwave that with "they're different types" and still try to argue they’re in the same universe. That’s like trying to say two games with completely separate magic systems are secretly part of the same canon, it just doesn’t track unless the narrative itself explicitly makes a bridge between the two, which it doesn’t. Also, this concession undermines your own stance, if Nightopia is specifically formed by the Ideya of a single person and the dreams in Shuffle are the collective product of multiple people, then they literally cannot be the same type of space. that
is a contradiction if you’re trying to unify both cosmologies under one canon. You don’t get to say “they’re fundamentally different” and then in the same breath argue “but they totally work together, bro.” Either they follow the same dream rules and can be linked, or they don’t. And by your own admission, they don’t.
Yeah... having multiple lands of dreams is abnormal somehow?
Again, MW is the place dreams are gattered and made real, while the Night Dimension is where people go when they sleep
again, there is no contradiction as they are different things
You can't play the "they're different things" card while both games literally frame their dream world as the
origin and
center of all dreaming. That’s a direct overlap, and unless one acknowledges the other, the contradiction is clear.
The Night Dimension is explicitly where dreams are made real.
That’s the very first thing Owl explains to Will in Journey of Dreams
Nightopias are the dream worlds.
Naka: Well, the very first designs that Oshima drew were very different from where we ended up. He interpreted the theme in a more fantastic way, a fantasy world of dreams. When I saw that, I told him that no one really has dreams like that. Dreams are usually closer to reality, and bear more of a resemblance to one’s inner psyche and subconscious. Everyone dreams, so I said let’s try and create a more natural image, something closer to the dreams we all have. The world of NiGHTS (in this game at least) derives from that way of thinking.
Iizuka: Since this was a world of “dreams” we were depicting—the mysterious world of the unconscious—we had to understand the whole thing before we could begin creating it. Take an island. If it’s a real island, it’s easy enough to create. Once we settled on the “dream” concept, though, it meant we had to design and create every detail of that island ex nihilo.
Have you ever thought about dreams? Dreams are mysterious worlds that are very close to us, but sometimes very distant. So, what are those mysterious worlds we see every night, and who are the people in them who talk to us? Countless scholars have come up with theory after theory to try and answer this simple question. Consider this: What if dreams are real? What if every time we fall asleep, our consciousness travels to an alternate dimension called a dream?
No? They are natives to Nightopias... no "peaceful dreams" in general, you made that one up as the links doesn't says that
As i said, the dreamworlds in Shuffle are never called "Nightopias", so again, they shoulnd't appear there as it isn't where they live
different types of world have differences... yeah, duh
The Night Dimension is composed of two worlds: Nightopia, a world created by projecting what we think of as fun
While it didn't say peaceful dreams, that's a bad interpretation on my end and I apologize about it, but as I said above, that kills your argument even more.
Why are you lying about what is said in the link?
All Owl says is that another Visitor entering another's Nightopia is unusual... and again, the ones in Maginaryworld are NEVER SAID TO BE NIGHTOPIAS, so it is a moot point anyway
Omega, think logically with me, how would a visitor enter another visitor's nightopia?
"Nightmare" is the name of the dimension he created opposing Nightopia, he didn't created the concept of Nightmares, heck, he is even said to merely be a
Visitor, aka a human, that came to the night dimension
which is again, said on the profiles he is NOT the creator of Bad Dreams and nightmares themselves, he made a Dimension oposing Nightopia called "Nightmare", you are twisting what is said in the very scans you are using
Huh????????????????????
This is literally a scan in the profile, also why the **** do you think it's called "Nightmare"?
We see in both games that the nightmarens are the cause of the nightmares (they are even said to create dream worlds, again one of the scans in the profile)
And in addition, the dark and frightening world opposite to Nightopia is Nightmare.We call these two worlds "dreams" and "nightmares", respectively."
This is from another scan in the profile too, "which is again said on the profiles" my chillidog.
And Darkness? You mean the very thing Void is said to be in Sonic Shuffle? yeah, weird how Wizeman is dependent entirely on Darkness to exist... just as Nightmares are said to be in Sonic Shuffle, so it is actually consistent with Sonic Suffle
First, suffle
Second, I’m honestly not sure how that’s supposed to make it consistent with Sonic Shuffle. Just because both Wizeman and Void are associated with “darkness” doesn’t mean they’re equivalent or even compatible. In Sonic Shuffle, the darkness isn't even traditional nightmares, they’re bad desires and selfish goals. Stuff like dreams of greed, lust, domination, things tied to human flaws but not necessarily fear or horror. That’s a completely different thematic tone than NiGHTS.You also run into the issue of having two completely different embodiments of darkness within humans (Void and Wizeman) operating independently in the same universe.
Third, suffle
(Sorry if I sound aggressive)
)
