1-A Bayonetta?!

[Comicgyal]

Hiii, so I am a bit late to making this but with standards changed and my thread here accepted I thought I’d give it a go.

So from the site, to qualify for 1A :

1. Characters or objects residing in higher states of existence surpassing material composition as a whole.
2. Completely unreachable and inaccessible to any and all extensions of the aforementioned structures. Their superiority over such realms, as such, is purely "qualitative"; based entirely on the ontological quality and nature of their existence.

The character we can attribute this to is Aesir, as he resides in a higher state of existence that surpasses the human world. In this existence/domain he resides, he is unable to be reached by any of the beings from the Human realm.

We know Aesir resides in a higher state of existence due to his excerpt;

ラグナ位階論

混沌の神

エーシル

光と闇と混沌。

原初より分かたれた三つの世界のうち、混沌を統べる存在、それがエーシルである。

「歴史の観測者」たる力を持ったエーシルは、我々とは全く違う次元に生き、起こり得る複数の可能性が同時に重なり合った状態の歴史を、時空を超越した視点から観測していたとされる。

「エーシル」という名は、人類の言葉で「神」を表すが、信仰や崇拝、教導や理想の念によるものではなく、単に人類にとって一切の理解が及ばない超自然の存在に対し、他に表現する言葉が見当たらなかったために用いられた、というのが実際のところであろう。

Laguna Hierarchy
God of Chaos
Aesir

Light, Darkness, and Chaos.

Of the three worlds that have been divided since the start of time, Aesir was the ruler of Chaos.

Aesir possessed the power of being an "observer of history", and was said to live in a dimension different from ours, observing history from a perspective that transcends time and space, where multiple possibilities overlap simultaneously.

The name "Aesir" meant "God" in human language, but it was not one of faith, worship, teachings, or ideals. Rather, there wasn't any other word that could describe a supernatural being who was beyond human comprehension.

And yes, this “perspective” is a qualitative one. Aesir sees the human world as flat 2-D images, memorializing them in reality itself. Describing them as “pictures.”

手帳の記憶

日常に突然現れる不思議。

覚えのないフラッシュバック、子供が突然生まれた国以外の言葉で話し出す、頭の中に響く声の言う通り行動して命拾いした、なんて話がある。

それらは昔、神様が残した“記憶の欠片”に触れたせいで起こると言われている。

人間界の神様は、この世の全ての事象を見通せる特別な目を持っていた。その目で見た者の持つ運命･･･現在、過去、未来、全てを見通すことができた。

心やさしく、人の世を愛した神様はやがて朽ちる運命を持った者たちを悲しく思い、その者たちの在りし日の姿をその場に焼き付けたんだ。写真でも撮るように。

あまりにもたくさん残し過ぎたせいか、神様自身もそのことを忘れてしまって、整理されず残ってしまったものが“記憶の欠片”だ。

普通には見ることも触れることもできないのだろうが、あんたが今これを読んでいるその場所も、もしかしたら神様の記憶の中なのかも知れないぜ。

Notebook Memory.

Mysteries has suddenly appeared in everyday life.

There are stories of unrecalled flashbacks, of children abruptly speaking in another language than the one they were born with, of people who saved their life by doing what the voice in their head instructed them to do.

It is said the cause of this was by coming into contact with "pieces of memory" left behind by God.

The God of the Human World had special eyes that could see all events in the world. They could see the fate of those they gaze upon with the eyes--past, present, future. All of it.

The benevolent, loving God felt sorrow for those who were destined to decay, and he burned them in their place as they were just like taking a picture.

Perhaps because they left too much behind, God himself forgot about them, and what remained unorganized are the "pieces of memory".

Though you may not see or touch them, the place from which you are reading this may have been from God's memory.

This is already accepted information, just restating it for convenience. I’m not sure if this is 100% but I believe it could qualify as 1A. Aesir is a being who exists beyond all of space and time, viewing it as snapshots of itself. Existing in a dimension that replicates these same qualities.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

This is nowhere near enough for 1-A

 

[Comicgyal]

Just wanted to see. I was told qualitative r>f is what’s needed for 1A, and since we have that I thought i’d make a thread. If the tier is still gatekept by layers of infinities and flowery words it’s no issue to me.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Just wanted to see. I was told qualitative r>f is what’s needed for 1A, and since we have that I thought i’d make a thread. If the tier is still gatekept by layers of infinities and flowery words it’s no issue to me.

It's not gatekept behind any flowery words. The point here is that "transcends time and space" and existing on a higher plane essentially means nothing without elaboration on how time and space (in a general or categorical sense too not just referring to like lets say a timeline) is in relation to this higher plane. All it seems here is he resides in a sort of higher plane where he can view all of space and time/history from. Viewing something as a picture isn't even a difference of reality over fiction, as you wont get R>F from viewing something as just a certain medium like a book, comic, movie whatever. You specifically need something that'd necessitate reality is insubstantial in comparison.

 

[Comicgyal]

It's not gatekept behind any flowery words. The point here is that "transcends time and space" and existing on a higher plane essentially means nothing without elaboration on how time and space (in a general or categorical sense too not just referring to like lets say a timeline) is in relation to this higher plane. All it seems here is he resides in a sort of higher plane where he can view all of space and time/history from. Viewing something as a picture isn't even a difference of reality over fiction, as you wont get R>F from viewing something as just a certain medium like a book, comic, movie whatever. You specifically need something that'd necessitate reality is insubstantial in comparison.

A bit confused there, if you’re stated to be a being who resides in a higher dimension, and you view the space time beneath you as 2-D how does that necessitate reality being insubstantial? It’s not as if i’d look at a comic book and say i’m superior to it because it’s 2D, we are referring to a 2A multiverse encompassed by a Low 1-C structure which he is said to transcend and view as 2D.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

A bit confused there, if you’re stated to be a being who resides in a higher dimension, and you view the space time beneath you as 2-D how does that necessitate reality being insubstantial? It’s not as if i’d look at a comic book and say i’m superior to it because it’s 2D, we are referring to a 2A multiverse encompassed by a Low 1-C structure which he is said to transcend and view as 2D.

You're pretty much answering yourself on why it's not 1-A here though

 

[Comicgyal]

You're pretty much answering yourself on why it's not 1-A here though

How so? Im disagreeing with you on the basis that Aesirs viewpoint isn’t r>f to begin with.

 

[EvoltOz]

I think you should ping knowledgeable staff for 1-A sh

 

[I'm_here_to_teach]

A bit confused there, if you’re stated to be a being who resides in a higher dimension, and you view the space time beneath you as 2-D how does that necessitate reality being insubstantial? It’s not as if i’d look at a comic book and say i’m superior to it because it’s 2D, we are referring to a 2A multiverse encompassed by a Low 1-C structure which he is said to transcend and view as 2D.

Cause that isnt enough sadly by the definition of ontological superiority
(for r>f void of nothingness is what im going off of)

you need to lack the properties of reality in this case this wiki considers it as time space and physical composition of reality(dimensionality) as insignificant and surpassing the very composition of the lower reality to a point of innaccessibility and viewing it as insignificant like a needle(reality) in a desert (the void)

So it leaves nothing behind except a complete difference in ontological value.
This would apply to the idea of like r>f if the r>f is treated as like what I had described
The reality would view the entire composition of the lower reality as insigificant.
(imma go back to reading. And give my opinion after)

 

[I'm_here_to_teach]

Hiii, so I am a bit late to making this but with standards changed and my thread here accepted I thought I’d give it a go.

" A place only accessible when he regains his original power and displayed in the end fight. It is once again we see the snapshots of his memory floating all around in his dimension.

This doesnt really help you as the fiction should never be able to interact with the reality cause even if they get infinitely upon infinitely greater obviously their are exceptions like if this is a avatar but this doesnt seem to be the case to me

obviously if it still fits all the points even with this contridiction it can still reach 1a but I dont see that personally.

If you have a comment like the concept of reality is viewed as such it'll probably work

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Executor_N0 @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Everything12 @IdiosyncraticLawyer @FinePoint Was asked to ping staff who are experts on 1-A stuff.

Though so far, Teach1121 is making good points.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Is there anything to suggest Aesir views reality as completely and totally insignificant to the degree where it would just be unreality? The nature of this transcendence needs to be explicitly defined to the degree where the higher reality in totality is completely irreducible.

 

[BoastJr]

 

[Unqver]

Being a dimension that just transcend a 4d universe isn't 1-A. There are no statements of it being above all worlds.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Being a dimension that just transcend a 4d universe isn't 1-A. There are no statements of it being above all worlds.

Its not just a singular 4-D universe, the Human Worlds is an infinite multiverse

Theres also a whole thing where Aesir can view the individual layers that make up the dimensional matrix of space-time that make up reality

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Its not just a singular 4-D universe, the Human Worlds is an infinite multiverse

Theres also a whole thing where Aesir can view the individual layers that make up the dimensional matrix of space-time that make up reality

Still irrelevant for 1-A

 

[Comicgyal]

Is there anything to suggest Aesir views reality as completely and totally insignificant to the degree where it would just be unreality? The nature of this transcendence needs to be explicitly defined to the degree where the higher reality in totality is completely irreducible.

There is Lukas dialogue about how they view reality in contrast to Aesir.

Where we only see reality and make it match our rules of the world, Aesir saw through reality, and those visions became our world.

Now this in my opinion, could maybe demonstrate how Aesir sees their reality as insignificant im comparison to himself. In conjunction with everything else i mentioned above..

If you have a comment like the concept of reality is viewed as such it'll probably work

We do know that Aesir created the concepts of their world and everything else that goes into it, and still lives in a dimension above those things. If that matters. He can also easily create and destroy these concepts as he chooses.

 

[I'm_here_to_teach]

We do know that Aesir created the concepts of their world and everything else that goes into it, and still lives in a dimension above those things. If that matters. He can also easily create and destroy these concepts as he chooses.

its probably fine then . But him destroying the concepts wouldnt matter lol.

You would just have to have him above said concepts of reality that makes up the composition of the lower one which should in theory given whats said should be the case obviously i dont know the full context behind it.

But it sounds like how a typical god would exist in a higher realm and make up the lower reality and forms himself into the lower one.

 

[Unqver]

Its not just a singular 4-D universe, the Human Worlds is an infinite multiverse

Theres also a whole thing where Aesir can view the individual layers that make up the dimensional matrix of space-time that make up reality

That would only be 5d, and low 1-c requires infinite 5d

 

[Comicgyal]

its probably fine then . But him destroying the concepts wouldnt matter lol.

You would just have to have him above said concepts of reality that makes up the composition of the lower one which should in theory given whats said should be the case obviously i dont know the full context behind it.

But it sounds like how a typical god would exist in a higher realm and make up the lower reality and forms himself into the lower one.

Yes that is the case, the concepts of the lower world were only created for the sake of the humans, and are not things he are bound by.

Aesir gave his power, the 'Eyes of the World' to mankind, and with it, they obtained the concept of "choice". At the same time, however, this too gave birth to concepts of 'victory' and 'defeat', 'truth' and "deception'

Hatred, betrayal, jealousy, and mockery. The concept of "choice" was quickly consumed by mankind like a drug, and eventually, Aesir himself, who had given this power to mankind, reawakened a strong desire for that power."

The power it’s referring to are his eyes btw that he split and gave to humanity.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I disagree with the 1-A as well.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Aesir possessed the power of being an "observer of history", and was said to live in a dimension different from ours, observing history from a perspective that transcends time and space, where multiple possibilities overlap simultaneously.

Per the FAQ, this does not qualify for 1-A:

Q: What tier is transcending space and time?​

A: As said above, "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. For example: It is perfectly possible for a statement like transcending space and time to mean that a character is simply "untied" from the universe's spacetime, and is thus unaffected by alterations in the timeline and similar meddlings. Likewise, It's not exactly uncommon for time travel (Or any action / process that affects something through different points in time) to be described as "transcending time and space."

Moreover, it should also be noted that simply existing in some alternate state of existence that lacks time and/or space is not really grounds for any tier in particular, as predating or lacking such things does not translate to being superior to them, and would most often overlap with abilities like Acausality or Nonexistent Physiology. A good example of a case like this is Dormammu (Marvel Cinematic Universe), who is stated to exist in a realm "far beyond time," yet never actually displays any superiority over it, and is in fact vulnerable to time-based abilities due to his timeless nature.

If the statement does specifically refer to superiority, however, then this opens up a wider range of possibilities that requires underlying context to properly tier. If the realm in question is "superior" to spacetime by a matter of physical size, then see here for more detailed information on the matter.

And yes, this “perspective” is a qualitative one. Aesir sees the human world as flat 2-D images, memorializing them in reality itself. Describing them as “pictures.”

This is actually evidence against 1-A. If they view the world as 2-D and they're just superior to it, that means they're working in the same framework of creation at a higher level of existence.

There's no realness difference present with the evidence presented, just them being on a higher plane of existence.

 

[Comicgyal]

I see, fair enough then. Unless any other supporters want to comment i’ll concede.

Per the FAQ, this does not qualify for 1-A:


This is actually evidence against 1-A. If they view the world as 2-D and they're just superior to it, that means they're working in the same framework of creation at a higher level of existence.

There's no realness difference present with the evidence presented, just them being on a higher plane of existence.

 

[Senzulean]

...that means they're working in the same framework of creation at a higher level of existence.

There's no realness difference present with the evidence presented, just them being on a higher plane of existence.

Just to clarify, what exactly what do you mean by "they're working in the same framework of creation at a higher level of existence"? Is this not the same case for literally any other verse? Either way, their state of existence on that level is still ultimately within the framework of the series' creation/logic because, like in any other franchise, they're working within the groundwork of a logic that has been cemented within their own series, just on such a higher level to the point where it reduces any reality lower than it as being "less real" in comparison. But it's not as if they're just, not apart of the same franchise anymore or something. I could just be misunderstanding this altogether, in which case I'd greatly appreciate some further explanation, because that's not making too much sense to me at the moment.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Just to clarify, what exactly what do you mean by "they're working in the same framework of creation at a higher level of existence"? Is this not the same case for literally any other verse?

1-A requires a separation of framework, usually accepted as a realness difference. It means that no matter how large framework A gets, it can never reach framework B, even with infinitely dense set of infinites. Being on a higher level is not enough for 1-A, you'd have to show that even an transinfinite increase on the lower realm could not bridge the gap.

This is not shown by the OP. They're higher in scope but not in a way to suggest there's a framework or realness difference.

 

[FinePoint]

Was asked to ping staff who are experts on 1-A stuff.

I'm still currently on vacation in Norway and don't have the proper time to fairly evaluate this until I return, my apologies.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm still currently on vacation in Norway and don't have the proper time to fairly evaluate this until I return, my apologies.

I forgot about that for a moment, my apologies. But enjoy it.

 

[Vietthai96]

I have the same opinion as Qaw

Just to clarify, what exactly what do you mean by "they're working in the same framework of creation at a higher level of existence"? Is this not the same case for literally any other verse? Either way, their state of existence on that level is still ultimately within the framework of the series' creation/logic because, like in any other franchise, they're working within the groundwork of a logic that has been cemented within their own series, just on such a higher level to the point where it reduces any reality lower than it as being "less real" in comparison. But it's not as if they're just, not apart of the same franchise anymore or something. I could just be misunderstanding this altogether, in which case I'd greatly appreciate some further explanation, because that's not making too much sense to me at the moment.

because if they the lower world as 2-D, it means the 2-D world is still as real as those who view it as 2-D; this means same level of existence

 

[Mgebrat282]

I agree with this

 

[JPTheGamer]

No

 

[Grand_Alter]

Hiii, so I am a bit late to making this but with standards changed and my thread here accepted I thought I’d give it a go.

So from the site, to qualify for 1A :

1. Characters or objects residing in higher states of existence surpassing material composition as a whole.
2. Completely unreachable and inaccessible to any and all extensions of the aforementioned structures. Their superiority over such realms, as such, is purely "qualitative"; based entirely on the ontological quality and nature of their existence.

The character we can attribute this to is Aesir, as he resides in a higher state of existence that surpasses the human world. In this existence/domain he resides, he is unable to be reached by any of the beings from the Human realm.

We know Aesir resides in a higher state of existence due to his excerpt;



And yes, this “perspective” is a qualitative one. Aesir sees the human world as flat 2-D images, memorializing them in reality itself. Describing them as “pictures.”



This is already accepted information, just restating it for convenience. I’m not sure if this is 100% but I believe it could qualify as 1A. Aesir is a being who exists beyond all of space and time, viewing it as snapshots of itself. Existing in a dimension that replicates these same qualities.

This may annoy a lot of people, but the guys at G1 were right. The Bayonetta games are plagued with mistranslations, so it would be better to discuss the Japanese journal entries, enemy profiles, dev interviews, and cutscenes whenever possible. The use of the word 次元 needs careful analysis whenever the Japanese bring it up. 次元 (じげん-jigen) can broadly refer to dimensions, but when the Japanese use it in conjunction with the word 並行 (へいこう-heikou), they usually refer to a parallel world or universe. And in Aesir's enemy profile, 違う次元 is an everyday, figurative speech used for someone who operates on a whole different level, so incomparable and incomprehensible that common sense no longer applies. This complements the latter phrase in his enemy profile "単に人類にとって一切の理解が及ばない超自然の存在に対し (a supernatural being beyond humanity's comprehension)" better. In this case, 次元 is not literally referring to a physical or mathematical dimension, as the English translation suggests.

「次元が違う」の言い換えや類語・同義語-Weblio類語辞典

次元が違うの言い換えや別の言い方。・甚だしく程度が異なっており、一般的な考え方が通用しないさま別次元の別世界の桁違いの世界が違う住んでいる世界が違う雲の上の次元が違う桁が違う住む世界が違う段違いの格が違う異次元の異世界の物事の主旨や意図...

thesaurus.weblio.jp

I tried to make sense out of the Bayonetta cosmology by focusing on mistranslations in anything that involved the highest-ranked and most powerful entities in the games, and I found that First Sphere residents of Paradiso and Aesir do transcend physical dimensions altogether. They are constantly described as merely metaphysical, truly spiritual, beyond spacetime or physical/material concepts, presiding over virtues, or being straight up the great intentions/wills of abstract concepts. This would explain why Rodin, a former first-ranked angel, doesn't have counterparts across the chaotic multiverse and all of human history. The highest-ranked gods, angels, and demons exist separately from physical reality, alternate timelines included.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Grand_Alter/Metaphysics_and_Mistranslations_in_Bayonetta

I've seen people trying to force physical dimensionality on Aesir and high-ranked angels. Saying that one exists at 5D or 6-D, another one at 11-D, and weird takes like these. But nothing in the Japanese things I've read and re-translated suggests that this is the case. Everything so far states the opposite. The high and top-tier characters of this cosmology are truly metaphysical, or so spiritually powerful that they can fight (Bayonetta) or summon (Balder) the great intentions of Platonic concepts (cardinal virtues).

 

[Grand_Alter]

Its not just a singular 4-D universe, the Human Worlds is an infinite multiverse

Theres also a whole thing where Aesir can view the individual layers that make up the dimensional matrix of space-time that make up reality

You informed me there's a team trying to upgrade Bayonetta's verse. My advice for anyone who wants to understand and tackle this cosmology is to work with Japanese sources as much as possible. The cosmology is sadly harder for non-Japanese speakers to analyze because the English mistranslations made something that should've been complex, but coherent and cohesive between all the games, a true mess. Valiance's enemy profile alone has multiple mistranslations. While doing my research, I also dug up a tweet in which Kamiya clarified that the first screen of the second game's story mode was mistranslated all along. They already fixed that one, but I doubt they will fix the rest of the mistranslations.


G1 also discovered that the diamonds in Aesir's emblem never represented dimensional layers in the matrix of the Bayonetta universe, which makes sense because one cannot apply layers of space and time to metaphysical realms where virtues and other Platonic concepts reside.

それは菱形を組み合わせたような形で、重なりあった菱形の一つ一つが、それぞれの時代や宇宙の成り.
Translation: It resembles a pattern of overlapping rhombuses, each rhombus representing a distinct era or the formation of the universe.
It's hard to be sure if by 宇宙 (uchuu) the Japanese journal entry means universe or space in this context, but 時代 (jidai) definitely refers to era or epoch.

時代 - Jisho.org

jisho.org

「時代」の言い換えや類語・同義語-Weblio類語辞典

時代の言い換えや別の言い方。・極度に古いこと時代時間の量ピリオド年代会期スパン時期ピリオッド期間時間期紀の下位区分で、それ自体は期に分割される、地質年代の単位世紀世劃期顕著な特徴または固定された時点または出来事で認められる時代世紀...

thesaurus.weblio.jp

I think the key is that Bayonetta 3 confirmed that Paradiso/Inferno residents, like Father/Devil Rodin, don't have variants or counterparts spread across the chaotic multiverse. Powerful metaphysical angels, demons, and gods exist separately from the spacetime continuum in which human history and its physical, alternate universes are located. It's the same good ol' Rodin for all the multiverse within the Chaos Realm, no matter how many alternate worlds and timelines humanity forges. Considering everything I've gathered and re-translated, I don't think it's outlandish to propose that Bayonetta's high and top-tier characters should be upgraded to tier 1-A.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

You informed me there's a team trying to upgrade Bayonetta's verse. My advice for anyone who wants to understand and tackle this cosmology is to work with Japanese sources as much as possible. The cosmology is sadly harder for non-Japanese speakers to analyze because the English mistranslations made something that should've been complex, but coherent and cohesive between all the games, a true mess. Valiance's enemy profile alone has multiple mistranslations. While doing my research, I also dug up a tweet in which Kamiya clarified that the first screen of the second game's story mode was mistranslated all along. They already fixed that one, but I doubt they will fix the rest of the mistranslations.


G1 also discovered that the diamonds in Aesir's emblem never represented dimensional layers in the matrix of the Bayonetta universe, which makes sense because one cannot apply layers of space and time to metaphysical realms where virtues and other Platonic concepts reside.

それは菱形を組み合わせたような形で、重なりあった菱形の一つ一つが、それぞれの時代や宇宙の成り.
Translation: It resembles a pattern of overlapping rhombuses, each rhombus representing a distinct era or the formation of the universe.
It's hard to tell if by 宇宙 (uchuu) the Japanese journal entry means universe or space in this context, but 時代 (jidai) definitely refers to era or epoch.

時代 - Jisho.org

jisho.org

「時代」の言い換えや類語・同義語-Weblio類語辞典

時代の言い換えや別の言い方。・極度に古いこと時代時間の量ピリオド年代会期スパン時期ピリオッド期間時間期紀の下位区分で、それ自体は期に分割される、地質年代の単位世紀世劃期顕著な特徴または固定された時点または出来事で認められる時代世紀...

thesaurus.weblio.jp

I think the key is that Bayonetta 3 confirmed that Paradiso/Inferno residents, like Father/Devil Rodin, don't have variants or counterparts spread across the chaotic multiverse. Powerful metaphysical angels, demons, and gods exist separately from the spacetime continuum in which human history and its physical, alternate universes are located. It's the same good ol' Rodin for all the multiverse within the Chaos Realm, no matter how many alternate worlds and timelines humanity forges. Considering everything I've gathered and re-translated, I don't think it's outlandish to propose that Bayonetta's high and top-tier characters should be upgraded to tier 1-A.

This may annoy a lot of people, but the guys at G1 were right. The Bayonetta games are plagued with mistranslations, so it would be better to discuss the Japanese journal entries, enemy profiles, dev interviews, and cutscenes whenever possible. The use of the word 次元 needs careful analysis whenever the Japanese bring it up. 次元 (じげん-jigen) can broadly refer to dimensions, but when the Japanese use it in conjunction with the word 並行 (へいこう-heikou), they usually refer to a parallel world or universe. And in Aesir's enemy profile, 違う次元 is an everyday, figurative speech used for someone who operates on a whole different level, so incomparable and incomprehensible that common sense no longer applies. This complements the latter phrase in his enemy profile "単に人類にとって一切の理解が及ばない超自然の存在に対し (a supernatural being beyond humanity's comprehension)" better. In this case, 次元 is not literally referring to a physical or mathematical dimension, as the English translation suggests.

「次元が違う」の言い換えや類語・同義語-Weblio類語辞典

次元が違うの言い換えや別の言い方。・甚だしく程度が異なっており、一般的な考え方が通用しないさま別次元の別世界の桁違いの世界が違う住んでいる世界が違う雲の上の次元が違う桁が違う住む世界が違う段違いの格が違う異次元の異世界の物事の主旨や意図...

thesaurus.weblio.jp

I tried to make sense out of the Bayonetta cosmology by focusing on mistranslations in anything that involved the highest-ranked and most powerful entities in the games, and I found that First Sphere residents of Paradiso and Aesir do transcend physical dimensions altogether. They are constantly described as merely metaphysical, truly spiritual, beyond spacetime or physical/material concepts, presiding over virtues, or being straight up the great intentions/wills of abstract concepts. This would explain why Rodin, a former first-ranked angel, doesn't have counterparts across the chaotic multiverse and all of human history. The highest-ranked gods, angels, and demons exist separately from physical reality, alternate timelines included.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Grand_Alter/Metaphysics_and_Mistranslations_in_Bayonetta

I've seen people trying to force physical dimensionality on Aesir and high-ranked angels. Saying that one exists at 5D or 6-D, another one at 11-D, and weird takes like these. But nothing in the Japanese things I've read and re-translated suggests that this is the case. Everything so far states the opposite. The high and top-tier characters of this cosmology are truly metaphysical, or so spiritually powerful that they can fight (Bayonetta) or summon (Balder) the great intentions of Platonic concepts (cardinal virtues).

Yes im aware, i sent them all the stuff you posted on my wall

 

[Grand_Alter]

Discussing Bayonetta without investing lots of time analyzing its games, developer commentaries, and books in Japanese might as well be considered headcanon. After every mistranslation I've found so far, no doubt every powerscaler or battle-boarding community out there needs to revise their Bayonetta-related pages or videos. Even G1's take on this verse has aged poorly in some departments, and theirs came out just last November. I've further updated my research to explain better how the Hierarchy of Laguna works and how Infernal Magic surpasses defense systems that rely on extra-dimensional technology. Plus, I added a few mistranslations from Bayonetta 3.

Aesir is a special mess to analyze because of everything lost in translation. How his "spatial and temporal transcendence" and "observer" powers worked in unison wasn't explained properly in the English version of the game. Basically, he was the one who created not just the Material World (Multiverse) in the Chaos Realm but also space and time in this cosmology through his observations. In Japanese, it's also easier to understand how the word "World" works, the difference in "qualitative superiority" between angelic orders, and that Inferno and Paradiso aren't physical realities. Seriously, I've seen people saying Ginnungagap encompasses the whole Trinity of Realities, not just the physical Multiverse.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Grand_Alter/Angels,_Demons,_Gods,_and_More_Mistranslations_in_Bayonetta

 

[KirbyFan03]

Hiii, so I am a bit late to making this but with standards changed and my thread here accepted I thought I’d give it a go.

So from the site, to qualify for 1A :

1. Characters or objects residing in higher states of existence surpassing material composition as a whole.
2. Completely unreachable and inaccessible to any and all extensions of the aforementioned structures. Their superiority over such realms, as such, is purely "qualitative"; based entirely on the ontological quality and nature of their existence.

The character we can attribute this to is Aesir, as he resides in a higher state of existence that surpasses the human world. In this existence/domain he resides, he is unable to be reached by any of the beings from the Human realm.

We know Aesir resides in a higher state of existence due to his excerpt;



And yes, this “perspective” is a qualitative one. Aesir sees the human world as flat 2-D images, memorializing them in reality itself. Describing them as “pictures.”



This is already accepted information, just restating it for convenience. I’m not sure if this is 100% but I believe it could qualify as 1A. Aesir is a being who exists beyond all of space and time, viewing it as snapshots of itself. Existing in a dimension that replicates these same qualities.

This would describe a higher dimensional plane at best not an outer one

 

[Grand_Alter]

This would describe a higher dimensional plane at best not an outer one

I already discussed that with Comicgyal. That Aesir exists in a "different dimension" is very likely one of the many mistranslations in the games. It was probably meant to be "level", since 次元 can also mean that and other things. If one wants to translate it as "dimension", good luck confirming the type of dimension it refers to. It cannot be a spatial or temporal dimension because Aesir transcends space and time in Japanese. And if it were a spatial, temporal, mathematical, or physical dimension, 次元 would be combined with one of these kanji: 時, 時間, 時空, 空間, 物理, 数学, which isn't the case in the original character description.

 

[KirbyFan03]

I already discussed that with Comicgyal. That Aesir exists in a "different dimension" is very likely one of the many mistranslations in the games. It was probably meant to be "level", since 次元 can also mean that and other things. If one wants to translate it as "dimension", good luck confirming the type of dimension it refers to. It cannot be a spatial or temporal dimension because Aesir transcends space and time in Japanese. And if it were a spatial, temporal, mathematical, or physical dimension, 次元 would be combined with one of these kanji: 時, 時間, 時空, 空間, 物理, 数学, which isn't the case in the original character description.

So 5D either way

 

[Grand_Alter]

So 5D either way

次元 can be translated as “level”, “point of reference”, “dimension”, “degree”, “rank”, and in some special cases, even as “universe” and “world”, yet you chose to endorse the one option that creates a worldbuilding mystery. If you are going to support that one, you need to explain what type of dimension Aesir/Loptr’s description is talking about, because it cannot be a spatial or temporal one. The Japanese cutscenes and character descriptions make it clear that he has “time and space transcendence”.

On the other hand, if you translate it as “level”, you get a Japanese figure of speech that does not contradict the latter half of the same sentence but even complements the next one in this character’s description.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Grand_Alter/Angels,_Demons,_Gods,_and_More_Mistranslations_in_Bayonetta#Literally_or_figuratively?

Also, for those unaware, Bayonetta 2 is arguably the game filled with the most mistranslations.
First screen of the story mode? Mistranslated.
Aesir’s Legend? Multiple times mistranslated.
Valiance’s entry? At least 3 mistranslations in that one alone.
Journal entry about Aesir’s crest? Mistranslated.
Loptr/Aesir’s description? At least 2 important mistranslations.
The cutscene when Loptr transforms into Aesir? Mistranslated.

Posts that argue about Bayonetta's cosmology and power levels, relying just on English information, should be considered "qualitatively inferior" at this point.

 

[Grand_Alter]

@Comicgyal @Senzulean I’m also going to leave this here because I can tell my research will either fly over people’s heads or be brushed off by people outside of the Bayonetta community.

There isn’t just a qualitative leap between angels in the First and Third Spheres of the Hierarchy of Laguna (merely metaphysical existence >>> standard spiritual existence). There’s one between the Chaos Realm vs Inferno and Paradiso, and another one between humans vs angels and demons.

Humans are considered inferior existences to angels and demons because they are material beings, lack Magic, and have unrefined Spirit Energy. The Chaos Realm is considered fragile and inferior to Paradiso and Inferno due to its fragmentation into many physical worlds and its Chaos Energy being filled with impurities.

To overcome the difference in quality in the first case, Umbra Witches and Lumen Sages refine their Spirit Energy to match that of angels and demons and then make pacts with them to be granted celestial or infernal magic. Fight fire with fire. To overcome the difference in quality in the second case, Singularity attained Magic by absorbing Ginnungagap and Umbra Witches, concentrating all the energy of the Chaos Realm at one point (himself), and then purifying it.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

I’m also going to leave this here because I can tell my research will either fly over people’s heads or be brushed off by people outside of the Bayonetta community.

I read your blog and thought it was interesting, particularly because translation is a curious topic to me. But as far as your mission itself goes, there's no use in expressing frustration at anyone's reading comprehension when you've gotten hardly any eyes on it to assess to begin with so far. Especially since the blog itself could use some bullet-point recaps to make foolproofly obvious exactly what you propose, something among the lines of the summary you just commented. "ABC Realm = XYZ Tier" and so on. For better or worse, staff and other often-busy consultants are gonna want to know exactly what they'd be signing up for instead of having to work it all out from a huge block of material themselves, even before they dig into it so as to zero in on the most relevant specifics.

Accessibility and a general good attitude are essential to get you through the eternity of waiting for any input at all -- moreso than even dealing with actual skeptical input; you can hide a body on T1 threads for topics that active staff aren't familiar with since many don't want to weigh in on what they aren't 100% sure about -- that a CRT like this will entail. I dunno from just a single look-over if the material itself is enough to go on for the qualia here, but if I were you I'd give it a shot (if maybe after timing for activity and supporters) or at least not declare defeat over it.