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Potential huge LS and AP God tier bleach upgrade (Squad zero level characters)

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Even if the Soul King test were LS—which we have zero confirmation of—it still wouldn’t scale to external lifting strength.
Yeah I sure wonder if carrying the weight of something has anything to do with LS.
Ichibei flat-out states Ichigo is being filled internally with Soul King power, and the visuals show that energy rupturing from inside his body, not pressing against him externally. That’s endurance against internal reiryoku infusion, not resisting an outside gravitational or reiatsu-based force.
Internal spiritual capacity ≠ external force output.
Not how LS works. There's effectively no difference between it pressing against him externally and internally as the effects on you would be essentially identical, especially in Bleach where reiatsu flows through your entire body and can even reinforce internal organs.
Also calling renji a fodder is crazy.
Compared to chapter 1 Ichigo? Sure he's not. But this is people like the SK and Yhwach we're talking about here, Renji is pretty fodder to them.

Lifting the Wandenreich IS supportive, not contradictory

Honestly this entire section is giving very strong AI vibes from formatting down to wording…
The argument that “lifting universes makes lifting the Wandenreich unimpressive” ignores how feats scale in Bleach.

Bleach LS/AP scale is not linear; it is reiatsu-based.

Yhwach lifting the Wandenreich is impressive not because the Wandenreich is heavy, but because:
  • He lifts it with casual ambient reiatsu,
Would a gorilla lifting a grain of sand "casually" be impressive to you? Actually not even that this is a difference of about 40 nonillion times.

This would be like seeing a gorilla enter ssj3 and lift a single atom and be impressed. Hell not just impressed, in disbelief.
  • Across massive distance,
Feat spanning few kilometers done by someone with universal range btw.
  • Without focus, hand gestures, or strain,
Ssj3 gorilla lifting an atom without focus doesn't seem impressive to me and it's still more "impressive" by few dozen times.
By this logic:

…you would have to throw out half of Bleach’s dialogue reactions, including:
  • Ichigo being shocked at Grimmjow’s casual reiatsu,
  • Ulquiorra being impressed by Ichigo’s transformation,
  • Giselle marveling at Kenpachi’s strike,
  • Aizen praising Ichigo’s Mugetsu.
No I wouldn't because those are vastly different scenes involving different characters.
Bleach characters react to control, finesse, and display, not only magnitude.
So the Wandenreich reaction is perfectly normal within the narrative.
Yeah maybe if Yhwach was class Y or maybe pre-stellar and you were justifying reaction to a class Z feat.
I did that because saqphire didn't know that LS also corresponds to non contact force which is why brought a gravity manip LS calc to show that is not the case here not because I needed it to prove the validity of my argument.
Saqphire asked if it was done physically or via telekinesis since those 2 don't automatically cross-scale.

Again the problem is that just because 1 verse (or hell sometimes it's just 1 character in a verse) scales physically to their telekinesis doesn't mean every character and every verse works like that.
It does because Bleach has UES, if we consider aizen to be superior to senna's blanks, then he is also superior to the blanks LS.
First of all, that's not relevant to the topic we are discussing.
Second of all, given we separated Yhwachs class Z telekinesis from Ichigo or SK I really don't think that's how the verse is accepted to work.
That's because Bleach unlike GOH has UES and what do you mean goh demonstrates a link between reaitsu and LS? Is that a mistake?.
You said "the example isn’t irrelevant—it demonstrates that Bleach already has a direct narrative and mechanical link between reiatsu-generated force and a character’s lifting/physical capability".
The example in question was a character from a different verse performing a feat.

I'm pointing out that either you made a mistake in your wording or are just wrong because the actions (or indexing) of a character from a different verse don't demonstrate anything about Bleach mechanics or narrative.
 
I don't think UES should be used as an excuse to scale characters to Lifting Strength values that has no supporting feats whatsoever close to this proposed level.
 
Yeah I sure wonder if carrying the weight of something has anything to do with LS.
Show me where they say Ichigo carries the weight of the three realms that doesn't require insane reaching. That's why I said anything soul king tier related is left for Cour 4 as there is not enough evidences to justify them. You are literally using a vague argument to debate with me right now, the same argument that would be slapped away if it was used in a CRT.
Not how LS works. There's effectively no difference between it pressing against him externally and internally
I didn't say it presses him internally, Ichigo contains the power even if it considers that as LS no one Ichigo fought would scale to that as they externally clash with Ichigo not internally. They would if for instance, Yhwach blows his body from the insides like he did ichibei your argument will then hold merit if that happens but it doesn't.
as the effects on you would be essentially identical, especially in Bleach where reiatsu flows through your entire body and can even reinforce internal organs.
But reaistu is never stated to internally crush your insides because the force is expelled outwards, so the effects are not identical.
Compared to chapter 1 Ichigo? Sure he's not. But this is people like the SK and Yhwach we're talking about here, Renji is pretty fodder to them.
We also talking about other characters like awakened uryu, squad zero and true shikai ichigo who scales of these ratings and renji even while weaker isn't fodder to them. This is false.
Honestly this entire section is giving very strong AI vibes from formatting down to wording…
And thats a problem because? I can't use AI to grammatically correct my responses so that other people can properly understand my point and stance again? It's not that my info is wrong and or what I am saying isn't literally being proven with scans already in the CRT.
Would a gorilla lifting a grain of sand "casually" be impressive to you? Actually not even that this is a difference of about 40 nonillion times.
A gorilla using his aura to lift a grain of sand while being in another continent would in fact be impressive to me. Again by this logic, Aizen's fragor should discredit him having his current rating because his current rating is more than 40 nonilion times higher than the values of the feat. This is wrong way to disprove what I am saying.
This would be like seeing a gorilla enter ssj3 and lift a single atom and be impressed. Hell not just impressed, in disbelief.
No, this would be like a gorilla again from the moon lifting a single atom WITH HIS AURA casually and the feat also comes with extreme matter manipulation and the likes of Ichigo are shocked by that revelation. It is important to consider that NO character that scales to the LS is impressed by the LS of the feat.
Feat spanning few kilometers done by someone with universal range btw.
More like a feat spanning billions of miles done by someone with universal range btw. Another misinformation.
Ssj3 gorilla lifting an atom without focus doesn't seem impressive to me and it's still more "impressive" by few dozen times.
Ssj3 gorrila lifting an atom from the moon with aura alone is definitely impressive. Just say its not impressive to you then we can move on from this argument.
No I wouldn't because those are vastly different scenes involving different characters.

Yeah maybe if Yhwach was class Y or maybe pre-stellar and you were justifying reaction to a class Z feat.
So why was daewi's multi stellar calc accepted when the next feat below it is class Y?

You realise all the awe comes from characters that don't scale and haven't seen anything like this in their entire life. Aizen for one is not impressed because he knows what this Yhwach can do since he is the only one there who can sense Yhwach's power level. Ichigo is shocked at twist of events not the LS (he should be because he is a teenager). Uryu is also not in awe same as renji. So this is argument doesn't even make any sense.
Saqphire asked if it was done physically or via telekinesis since those 2 don't automatically cross-scale.
And I proved why they cross scale lol.
Again the problem is that just because 1 verse (or hell sometimes it's just 1 character in a verse) scales physically to their telekinesis doesn't mean every character and every verse works like that.
It means so in bleach, you are literally appealing to possibilities instead of addressing Bleach UES system and characters consistently showing this to be the case.
First of all, that's not relevant to the topic we are discussing.
It is completely relevant
Second of all, given we separated Yhwachs class Z telekinesis from Ichigo or SK I really don't think that's how the verse is accepted to work.
I specifically debunked this, the reason why they didn't is because people assumed yhwach did it with telekinesis (not reaistu based) but the anime already shows it is a reaistu as a LS feat. if you pay attention to the CRT you would see where I address that in depth to debunk qaw's reasoning.

Post in thread 'Potential huge LS and AP God tier bleach upgrade (Squad zero level characters)' https://vsbattles.com/threads/poten...uad-zero-level-characters.185660/post-7399531
You said "the example isn’t irrelevant—it demonstrates that Bleach already has a direct narrative and mechanical link between reiatsu-generated force and a character’s lifting/physical capability".
The example in question was a character from a different verse performing a feat.
No i said gravity manip and non contact force can scale to LS which I reinforce by using a gravity manip LS calc that's the only relevance of that calc here. Don't strawman my argument.
I'm pointing out that either you made a mistake in your wording or are just wrong because the actions (or indexing) of a character from a different verse don't demonstrate anything about Bleach mechanics or narrative.
I never said it does. What It does is clear things up as non contact force can be counted as LS. If you misunderstood me before I apologize but if you decided to read this clarification and still repeat this. I would just take it as you having no argument.
 
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Yeah I sure wonder if carrying the weight of something has anything to do with LS.
Show me where they say Ichigo carries the weight of the three realms that doesn't require insane reaching. That's why I said anything soul king tier related is left for Cour 4 as there is not enough evidences to justify them. You are literally using a vague argument to debate with me right now, the same argument that would be slapped away if it was used in a CRT.
Not how LS works. There's effectively no difference between it pressing against him externally and internally
I didn't say it presses him internally, Ichigo contains the power even if it considers that as LS no one Ichigo fought would scale to that as they externally clash with Ichigo not internally. They would if for instance, Yhwach blows his body from the insides like he did ichibei your argument will then hold merit if that happens but it doesn't.
as the effects on you would be essentially identical, especially in Bleach where reiatsu flows through your entire body and can even reinforce internal organs.
But reaistu is never stated to internally crush your insides because the force is expelled outwards, so the effects are not identical.
Compared to chapter 1 Ichigo? Sure he's not. But this is people like the SK and Yhwach we're talking about here, Renji is pretty fodder to them.
We also talking about other characters like awakened uryu, squad zero and true shikai ichigo who scales of these ratings and uryu even while weaker isn't fodder to them. This is false.
Honestly this entire section is giving very strong AI vibes from formatting down to wording…
And thats a problem because? I can't use AI to grammatically correct my responses so that other people can properly understand my point and stance again? It's not that my info is wrong and or what I am saying isn't literally being proven with scans already in the CRT.
Would a gorilla lifting a grain of sand "casually" be impressive to you? Actually not even that this is a difference of about 40 nonillion times.
A gorilla using his aura to lift a grain of sand while being in another continent would in fact be impressive to me. Again by this logic, Aizen's fragor should discredit him having his current rating because his current rating is more than 40 nonilion times higher than the values of the feat. This is wrong way to disprove what I am saying.
This would be like seeing a gorilla enter ssj3 and lift a single atom and be impressed. Hell not just impressed, in disbelief.
No, this would be like a gorilla again from the moon lifting a single atom WITH HIS AURA casually and the feat also comes with extreme matter manipulation and the likes of Ichigo are shocked by that revelation. It is important to consider that NO character that scales to the LS is impressed by the LS of the feat.
Feat spanning few kilometers done by someone with universal range btw.
More like a feat spanning billions of miles done by someone with universal range btw. Another misinformation.
Ssj3 gorilla lifting an atom without focus doesn't seem impressive to me and it's still more "impressive" by few dozen times.
Ssj3 gorrila lifting an atom from the moon with aura is alone is definitely impressive. Just its not impressive to you then we can move on from this argument.
No I wouldn't because those are vastly different scenes involving different characters.

Yeah maybe if Yhwach was class Y or maybe pre-stellar and you were justifying reaction to a class Z feat.
So why was daewi's multi stellar calc accepted when the next feat below it is class Y?

You realise all the awe comes from characters that don't scale and haven't seen anything like this in their entire life. Aizen for one is not impressed because he knows what this Yhwach can do since he is the only one there who can sense Yhwach's power level. Ichigo is shocked at twist of events not the LS (he should be because he is a teenager). Uryu is also not in awe same as renji. So this is argument doesn't even make any sense.
Saqphire asked if it was done physically or via telekinesis since those 2 don't automatically cross-scale.
And I proved why they cross scale lol.
Again the problem is that just because 1 verse (or hell sometimes it's just 1 character in a verse) scales physically to their telekinesis doesn't mean every character and every verse works like that.
It means so in bleach, you are literally appealing to possibilities instead of addressing Bleach UES system and characters consistently showing this to be the case.
First of all, that's not relevant to the topic we are discussing.
It is completely relevant
Second of all, given we separated Yhwachs class Z telekinesis from Ichigo or SK I really don't think that's how the verse is accepted to work.
I specifically debunked this, the reason why they didn't is because people assumed yhwach did it with telekinesis (not reaistu based) but the anime already shows it is a reaistu as a LS feat. if you pay attention to the CRT you would see where I address that in depth to debunk qaw's reasoning.

Post in thread 'Potential huge LS and AP God tier bleach upgrade (Squad zero level characters)' https://vsbattles.com/threads/poten...uad-zero-level-characters.185660/post-7399531
You said "the example isn’t irrelevant—it demonstrates that Bleach already has a direct narrative and mechanical link between reiatsu-generated force and a character’s lifting/physical capability".
The example in question was a character from a different verse performing a feat.
No i said gravity manip and non contact force can scale to LS which I reinforce by using a gravity manip LS calc that's the only relevance of that calc here. Don't strawman my argument.
I'm pointing out that either you made a mistake in your wording or are just wrong because the actions (or indexing) of a character from a different verse don't demonstrate anything about Bleach mechanics or narrative.
It doesn't never said it does. What It does is clear things up as non contact force can be counted as LS. If you misunderstood me before I apologize but if you decided to read this clarification and still repeat this. I would just take it as you having no argument.
Show me where they say Ichigo carries the weight of the three realms that doesn't require insane reaching. That's why I said anything soul king tier related is left for Cour 4 as there is not enough evidences to justify them. You are literally using a vague argument to debate with me right now, the same argument that would be slapped away if it was used in a CRT.

I didn't say it presses him internally, Ichigo contains the power even if it considers that as LS no one Ichigo fought would scale to that as they externally clash with Ichigo not internally. They would if for instance, Yhwach blows his body from the insides like he did ichibei your argument will then hold merit if that happens but it doesn't.

But reaistu is never stated to internally crush your insides because the force is expelled outwards, so the effects are not identical.

We also talking about other characters like awakened uryu, squad zero and true shikai ichigo who scales of these ratings and uryu even while weaker isn't fodder to them. This is false.

And thats a problem because? I can't use AI to grammatically correct my responses so that other people can properly understand my point and stance again? It's not that my info is wrong and or what I am saying isn't literally being proven with scans already in the CRT.

A gorilla using his aura to lift a grain of sand while being in another continent would in fact be impressive to me. Again by this logic, Aizen's fragor should discredit him having his current rating because his current rating is more than 40 nonilion times higher than the values of the feat. This is wrong way to disprove what I am saying.

No, this would be like a gorilla again from the moon lifting a single atom WITH HIS AURA casually and the feat also comes with extreme matter manipulation and the likes of Ichigo are shocked by that revelation. It is important to consider that NO character that scales to the LS is impressed by the LS of the feat.

More like a feat spanning billions of miles done by someone with universal range btw. Another misinformation.

Ssj3 gorrila lifting an atom from the moon with aura is alone is definitely impressive. Just its not impressive to you then we can move on from this argument.

So why was daewi's multi stellar calc accepted when the next feat below it is class Y?

You realise all the awe comes from characters that don't scale and haven't seen anything like this in their entire life. Aizen for one is not impressed because he knows what this Yhwach can do since he is the only one there who can sense Yhwach's power level. Ichigo is shocked at twist of events not the LS (he should be because he is a teenager). Uryu is also not in awe same as renji. So this is argument doesn't even make any sense.

And I proved why they cross scale lol.

It means so in bleach, you are literally appealing to possibilities instead of addressing Bleach UES system and characters consistently showing this to be the case.

It is completely relevant

I specifically debunked this, the reason why they didn't is because people assumed yhwach did it with telekinesis (not reaistu based) but the anime already shows it is a reaistu as a LS feat. if you pay attention to the CRT you would see where I address that in depth to debunk qaw's reasoning.

Post in thread 'Potential huge LS and AP God tier bleach upgrade (Squad zero level characters)' https://vsbattles.com/threads/poten...uad-zero-level-characters.185660/post-7399531

No i said gravity manip and non contact force can scale to LS which I reinforce by using a gravity manip LS calc that's the only relevance of that calc here. Don't strawman my argument.

It doesn't never said it does. What It does is clear things up as non contact force can be counted as LS. If you misunderstood me before I apologize but if you decided to read this clarification and still repeat this. I would just take it as you having no argument.
This is me not using AI to correct and remove grammar mistakes to make my arguments more proper. Notice how the write up feels wonky and hard to understand. If using AI to do this is not accepted, I will continue without it. But my arguments will be much harder to comprehend.
 
Further, higher LS higher AP justification: Aizen edition:

The main reason we consider aizen to grow stronger in the muken is based off his LS after releasing an unchanted hado 90.

Urahara doesn't say he becomes stronger from witnessing him expand his reaistu most likely because he can't sense aizen's reaistu. What he can accurately gauge is the resulting force of the hado 90 gravitational force unleashed by Aizen. That Aizen himself TANKS un-phased btw. After the hado 90 collapses, urahara states aizen has become overall more powerful after fighting Ichigo. He makes this statement from an LS perspective and uses it to gauge Aizen's power level currently.

Logically reinforcing UES bleach standards.

I also pointed out how we already in updated ratings scale Ichigo and co's range to Senjumaru’s range despite their shown ranges being more than billions of times thinner but we accept it regardless because of UES system for bleach. If you didn't disprove that there, trying to argue against it now despite all evidences pointing to the contrary is expression of bias and ignorance. This isn't me trying to poison the well, I am just calling that out I mean no offence by it.
 
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New proposal:

I understand that the LS i am proposing is way higher than anything we have seen in bleach. So I am willing to compromise to a "likely" rating for soul king level characters and a "possibly" rating for characters who scale from uryu scaling to Ichigo's LS. I for one do not fully agree with this rating as we have never used outlier arguments for God tier bleach in both AP and Range. Because back in 2023, we agreed with multi solar system upgrade that boosted majority of the God tiers to Galaxy level from the senjumaru 4A calc (now 4B, not that it matters) while reio had an outdated star level calc and the same argument was applied to their range which was accepted. So using outlier argument here by using an outdated casual feat (even far more casual than Senjumaru’s) to disprove the LS is something I hadn't expected to see.

And I believe I have dropped far more than enough evidence for both the feat being a legit LS feat and UES applying to LS in Bleach mechanics. Since these characters are accepted to be superior to senna's AP force that overrides the LS and these characters Unlike senna, have a constant Senna's AP force output should logically supercede the LS via default.

So in spite of this, I am willing to accept a possibly or likely rating attached instead of a full on rating if it isn't easily digested by our staff members.
 
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I don't think UES should be used as an excuse to scale characters to Lifting Strength values that has no supporting feats whatsoever close to this proposed level.
Technically they do but it is still vague for now waiting till Cour 4. Which explains the complications of izurasando (prolly butchered the spelling) to make a CRT on that LS. Tho I guess this might not necessarily count as an argument for now.
 
Wouldn't it be best to wait for Cour 4 then?
 
Wouldn't it be best to wait for Cour 4 then?
No it wouldn't as without cour 4 the feat still stands and is not dependent on Cour 4 scaling nor does it have to do with the actual God tiers of the verse. The only thing Cour 4 can do is support it with other feats (removing a possibly or likely rating).

If we didn't wait for Cour 4 to update Senjumaru’s rating on God tier characters, we shouldn't do the same now. The only thing Cour 4 can do is remove the possibly.
 
Wouldn't it be best to wait for Cour 4 then?
We were able to change the scales in Senjumaru's success. Both feats have already happened , I don't think there's any harm in updating Senna and the characters affected by her, Cour 4 will be a separate issue after all. Won't the new feat's and new information it will bring when it comes out be a completely different topic?
 
We were able to change the scales in Senjumaru's success. Both feats have already happened , I don't think there's any harm in updating Senna and the characters affected by her, Cour 4 will be a separate issue after all. Won't the new feat's and new information it will bring when it comes out be a completely different topic?
I take it you agree with my new proposal?
 
I take it you agree with my new proposal?
You're on a very good topic, but my suggestion for now is to continue by separating the AP and Ls debates from each other, because the LS we'll get from this is really high compared to what we have for the universe. When Cour 4 comes out, Ls feats will be permanently established. I'm all for keeping Senna's AP up-to-date and ensuring that the affected characters get their share of this, but as I said, a separate discussion should be opened for such an innovation the lifting strength in the universe. In short, I still accept AP and don't interfere with Ls. Create an "agree with AP" option and write me there.
 
You're on a very good topic, but my suggestion for now is to continue by separating the AP and Ls debates from each other, because the LS we'll get from this is really high compared to what we have for the universe. When Cour 4 comes out, Ls feats will be permanently established. I'm all for keeping Senna's AP up-to-date and ensuring that the affected characters get their share of this, but as I said, a separate discussion should be opened for such an innovation the lifting strength in the universe. In short, I still accept AP and don't interfere with Ls. Create an "agree with AP" option and write me there.
Okay your input and opinion is much appreciated.
 
You won't be able to draw a conclusion about Ls from here, if we see and learn new things about cosmology like the primordial sea in cour 4 (obviously Kubo has new things in his mind that he wants to tell), we will understand the structure of cosmology better and discuss these issues better in cour 4. take it slow.
 
Agree on AP, not sure about LS but I lean towards agreeing asw. The UES part makes sense and fits both the story and what seems to be narrative intent. Except maybe for characters like Meninas and Jackie, whose abilities most likely just boost their physical stats without boosting reiryoku&reiatsu as well, the direct proportionality of stats should be a solid in-verse rule.
 
You won't be able to draw a conclusion about Ls from here, if we see and learn new things about cosmology like the primordial sea in cour 4 (obviously Kubo has new things in his mind that he wants to tell), we will understand the structure of cosmology better and discuss these issues better in cour 4. take it slow.
I still would because I am using the movie’s internal logic of the size of the realms and collision of the realms not a theoretical cour 4 information.This argument appeals to possibility and not certainty.

I keep on saying this CRT has nothing to do with Cour 4 but I keep seeing Cour 4 related stuff (that hasn't even happened yet) being used to address my argument from a decade old movie.
 
Agree on AP, not sure about LS but I lean towards agreeing asw. The UES part makes sense and fits both the story and what seems to be narrative intent. Except maybe for characters like Meninas and Jackie, whose abilities most likely just boost their physical stats without boosting reiryoku&reiatsu as well, the direct proportionality of stats should be a solid in-verse rule.
Do you agree with a possibly rating or a full on rating?
 
I still would because I am using the movie’s internal logic of the size of the realms and collision of the realms not a theoretical cour 4 information.This argument appeals to possibility and not certainty.

I keep on saying this CRT has nothing to do with Cour 4 but I keep seeing Cour 4 related stuff (that hasn't even happened yet) being used to address my argument from a decade old movie.
I understand you, don't worry, the point I'm making is not contradictory to the universally accepted Ls cosmology scale, even if your Ls arguments is became perfect but it would be wrong to adapt it to the current profile status of the characters whose tiers will increase with Cour 4, As you can see, I am in favor of correcting the feats we already have, but at the same time I advocate that such universally large changes should not be rushed and that the characters should be accepted in direct proportion to their tiers. Of course, I will follow what democracy says.
 
I'll be fr most of this is just pointless fluff that does nothing but make the conversation more difficult to follow and participate in. So I'll write what's probably my last comment to avoid wasting time.
That's why I said anything soul king tier related is left for Cour 4 as there is not enough evidences to justify them. You are literally using a vague argument to debate with me right now, the same argument that would be slapped away if it was used in a CRT.
So you're admitting we need to wait for cour 4 to address a major part of this topic BUT at the same time refuse to wait for cour 4?
I didn't say it presses him internally, Ichigo contains the power even if it considers that as LS no one Ichigo fought would scale to that as they externally clash with Ichigo not internally. They would if for instance, Yhwach blows his body from the insides like he did ichibei your argument will then hold merit if that happens but it doesn't.
It's literally described as Ichigo "feeling the weight" of what he's trying to protect (which is the 3 realms).
And thats a problem because? I can't use AI to grammatically correct my responses so that other people can properly understand my point and stance again? It's not that my info is wrong and or what I am saying isn't literally being proven with scans already in the CRT.
It's not that they seem AI corrected, it's that they seem AI generated. You can of course use AI to fix your grammar (tho it feels completely unnecessary in this case) but if you're going to flood the thread with a massive gish gallop, I'd say using AI to generate it is a pretty shitty thing to do.
A gorilla using his aura to lift a grain of sand while being in another continent would in fact be impressive to me.
That's a false equivalence. Given that Yhwach has universal range this would ve more like a ssj3 gorilla lifting a single atom 0.00000000000000000001cm away.
No, this would be like a gorilla again from the moon lifting a single atom WITH HIS AURA casually
Yhwach with universal range lifting something few kilometers away is as impressive as a gorilla with a 2.5 meter range lifting something 384,400,000 meters away?

And idk why are you pointing out "with aura" as if 99% of Bleach characters didn't have aura.
It is important to consider that NO character that scales to the LS is impressed by the LS of the feat.
It is not important to consider as a lack of evidence that they consider it impressive isn't evidence that they don't.

Meanwhile characters who fought S0 and are teammates with people like Uryu DID consider it impressive even after seeing that Yhwach even absorbed the SK.
More like a feat spanning billions of miles done by someone with universal range btw. Another misinformation.
Wowza insane misinformation!
That makes the distinction only 180 quadrillion times smaller than Yhwachs actual range! Crazy difference.

This means they were definitely impressed by him using 0.0000000000000005% of his range…
So why was daewi's multi stellar calc accepted when the next feat below it is class Y?
What kind of question is that? These aren't even remotely close to being even slightly comparable 💀
You realise all the awe comes from characters that don't scale and haven't seen anything like this in their entire life.
Characters who have followed Yhwach, know about the soul king who's power Yhwach has just absorbed, and have fought S0 who's supposedly scaling to it?
Hell one of their teammates is Uryu who does scale and is actually a crux of you scaling here.

So this entire argument relies on the entire group being completely unaware of SK, S0s, or Yhwachs power and downplaying by nonillions of times.
It means so in bleach,
Again for the last time, Daewi doing something in a different verse means nothing towards what's true in Bleach…
you are literally appealing to possibilities instead of addressing Bleach UES system
No I'm debunking your example from a different verse.
No i said gravity manip and non contact force can scale to LS which I reinforce by using a gravity manip LS calc that's the only relevance of that calc here. Don't strawman my argument.
Yes you said it can scale IN A DIFFERENT VERSE.
It doesn't never said it does. What It does is clear things up as non contact force can be counted as LS. If you misunderstood me before I apologize but if you decided to read this clarification and still repeat this. I would just take it as you having no argument.
Nobody doubted "non contact force can scale to LS" but whether this scales to physicals or whether it was done by some form of telekinesis.

Anyway write me down as disagreeing with LS. Like I said I agree with Qawsedfs reasoning to begin with and what I brought up just strengthens the idea that the LS interpretation is narratively wildly inconsistent
 
I understand you, don't worry, the point I'm making is not contradictory to the universally accepted Ls cosmology scale, even if your Ls arguments is became perfect but it would be wrong to adapt it to the current profile status of the characters whose tiers will increase with Cour 4, As you can see, I am in favor of correcting the feats we already have, but at the same time I advocate that such universally large changes should not be rushed and that the characters should be accepted in direct proportion to their tiers. Of course, I will follow what democracy says.
I agree for the most part. However, that is what we can do for now then wait til Cour 4 to update any rating. This doesn't mean we should do nothing til then tho.
 
I'll be fr most of this is just pointless fluff that does nothing but make the conversation more difficult to follow and participate in. So I'll write what's probably my last comment to avoid wasting time
This is also the last time I reply to you because you essentially have no concrete argument that beats mine and you are strawmaning my arguments so I won't even bother addressing you again.
So you're admitting we need to wait for cour 4 to address a major part of this topic BUT at the same time refuse to wait for cour 4?
Thats not what I said at all, I NEVER said cour 4 is relevant nor addresses anything relating to this topic, that is a lie. What I said is cour 4 can potentially contribute another LS feat of higher scale by truly explaining the mechanics or shedding more light on iruzando because people like you keep talking about cour 4 against my CRT implicitly stating no one should bring cour 4 scaling as the foundations of my argument doesn't address it nor does it need it. As the feat I am proposing is from a decade old movie and not tybw.

So yes, my topic doesn't need cour 4 scaling unless whatever happens in cour 4 addresses blanks feat itself and to use that as an argument is to appeal to unfounded possibilities while my CRT does the opposite of that.
It's literally described as Ichigo "feeling the weight" of what he's trying to protect (which is the 3 realms).
So what about the other realms in bleach that is also stated to be sustained by the soul king? Also where does ichigo start feeling the weight, is at the beginning or at the ending of the trail? because in both sections Because ichigo feels different magnitude of forces acting on him on beginning of the trail and at the end. Note these are rhetorical questions I don't expect you to answer them because nothing you say would be concrete and if you answer them I won't even bother responding to an argument that isn’t CRT worthy.

If you plan to continue this argument then you are unironically asserting Ichigo’s LS to be immeasurable without concrete evidence, using a vague argument that isn't even concrete until cour 4 puts an explanation to the feat itself. Thus the feat is useless and holds no weight to my CRT.

This is still a vague argument that is not blatant enough for a CRT evaluation thus using it as to override a more blatant one is abysmal and if he scales there, there is no argument that would deny the others scaling as well. It only means Ichigo can withstand the weight of the realms far longer than they can still showing superior LS while having relative force to the other characters I am proposing.
It's not that they seem AI corrected, it's that they seem AI generated. You can of course use AI to fix your grammar (tho it feels completely unnecessary in this case) but if you're going to flood the thread with a massive gish gallop, I'd say using AI to generate it is a pretty shitty thing to do.
Thats your business, none of the staff addresses that nor does it change any of the point I made and proved in this CRT. And what does it matter anyway if what I am still saying IS BACKED UP BY MY OWN SCANS.
That's a false equivalence. Given that Yhwach has universal range this would ve more like a ssj3 gorilla lifting a single atom 0.00000000000000000001cm away.
I won't even bother addressing something I have already addressed seeing as its clearly rage bait.
Yhwach with universal range lifting something few kilometers away is as impressive as a gorilla with a 2.5 meter range lifting something 384,400,000 meters away?
Notice how you say few kilometers away, after I corrected you that the range of movement is billions of miles MULTIPLE TIMES already completely cementing your poor unfounded arguments.
And idk why are you pointing out "with aura" as if 99% of Bleach characters didn't have aura.
And no character has used just their aura to lift something or perform a substantial feat. It is consistently shown that physicals amplified by reaitsu is what does any thing substantial not aura only. This is why we consider senjumaru being stronger than gremmy cause hers was just aura while Gremmy’s was his full power output. So like I said your argument isn't concrete.
It is not important to consider as a lack of evidence that they consider it impressive isn't evidence that they don't.
Then the burden of proof would be on you to prove that they were impressed since you are the one who made the original claim.
Meanwhile characters who fought S0 and are teammates with people like Uryu DID consider it impressive even after seeing that Yhwach even absorbed the SK.
Since you want to appeal to possibility I can also do the same, it is also possible uryu considers the matter manipulation (a quincy basic ability taking to extreme levels of island to country sized level warping ) to be impressive. He isn't on the SS where the wandereich is being physically lifted. Your stance doesn't prove uryu being impressed by the lifting strength and even if he was, Uryu as a quincy physically so he can't use his reaistu to do stuff like that so it doesn't even matter.
Wowza insane misinformation!
That makes the distinction only 180 quadrillion times smaller than Yhwachs actual range! Crazy difference.
This argument isn't about the magnitude but the fact that both showings are much lower than the rating they scale to. So you basically are trying to say the difference here is higher so therefore means this shouldn't scale but this one should. This is invalid as both are astronomical value differences and no where in this wiki is outlier difference quantifed. So if you want to disagree with the LS, then AP, Range and SS should be removed as well.
This means they were definitely impressed by him using 0.0000000000000005% of his range…
Still waiting for you to prove they were "impressed" by his LS. Until then I won't humor this poor argument.
What kind of question is that? These aren't even remotely close to being even slightly comparable 💀

Characters who have followed Yhwach, know about the soul king who's power Yhwach has just absorbed, and have fought S0 who's supposedly scaling to it?
Proof of this? How would they fathom a power that only Aizen and ichigo can sense lol.

They didn't even know about the S0 power so how would they fully know about the reio. The only case you can make here who knows what reio is capable off is jugram and even he is not shocked by what yhwach can do.
Hell one of their teammates is Uryu who does scale and is actually a crux of you scaling here.
Yes so?
So this entire argument relies on the entire group being completely unaware of SK, S0s, or Yhwachs power and downplaying by nonillions of times.
.
Exacly and they are unaware, they didn't know about S0 blood oath seal, they didn't even fully understood what yhwach became ONLY jugram. So for you to assert the opposite would be to prove that with scans and not incoherent arguments.
Again for the last time, Daewi doing something in a different verse means nothing towards what's true in Bleach…
Different verses still fall under this wiki rules and as far as I am concerned no verse is given an outlier exception. So yes I can do as I please in this case and use your own verse against you. So answer the question or stop tagging me.
No I'm debunking your example from a different verse.
Which you FAILED to do as different verses have different energy systems which this wiki shows. Bleach notably has UES which is listed under the wiki's UES distribution page GOH doesn't making your analogy fall short. Also notice how wiki seperates UES, LES and other distribution systems but doesn't separate verses when it comes to outlier rules. It's funny how you say GOH is different than bleach when it comes to outlier but its not different when you are the one making the comparisons lol.

What's even funnier is how the wiki support seperate ratings in my case but does the opposite to yours given me liberty for a comparison and doesn't give you that same chance.
Yes you said it can scale IN A DIFFERENT VERSE.
Whatever floats your boat my good sir.
Nobody doubted "non contact force can scale to LS" but whether this scales to physicals or whether it was done by some form of telekinesis.
Well I thought she did, because a lot of people don't know that. Regardless this is an irrelevant argument that you keep dragging out that holds no root to the overall message of my CRT.
Anyway write me down as disagreeing with LS. Like I said I agree with Qawsedfs reasoning to begin with
A reasoning i debunked but I will add your name there regardless.
and what I brought up just strengthens the idea that the LS interpretation is narratively wildly inconsistent
No it doesn't at all LMAO.
 
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My view is mostly unchanged. AP wise I'm fine and I don't agree with LS.
Can you summon some other stuff members that are interested in this? I'd do it myself, but idk any who care about bleach besides you and damage
 
Overall summary CRT conclusion for those new to the thread;

QAWS arguments:

MY REBUTALL TO QAWS arguments;
David's arguments;
MY REBUTALL TO DAVID'S ARGUMENT:
This is my new rating proposal to accommodate outlier complaints;

I won't address any arguments on this reasonings again, anyone who comes to the thread can read through these arguments and form your conclusion on which is more concrete and more consistent with the mechanics and narrative of the verse. I also want to apologise if I intentionally or unintentionally offend anyone. Let's keep this thread clean and civil please.
 
Also, please NO ONE should bring anything related to Cour 4 or even speak about cour 4 Potential scaling AGAIN, doing so will mislead people to think It is relevant here. Let's not derail the thread with that as the feat comes from a decade old movie and I am using the movie's internal coupled with bleach UES logical evidences and showings to justify both feats and applying them since the movie is canon.
 
Also, please NO ONE should bring anything related to Cour 4 or even speak about cour 4 Potential scaling AGAIN, doing so will mislead people to think It is relevant here. Let's not derail the thread with that as the feat comes from a decade old movie and I am using the movie's internal coupled with bleach UES logical evidences and showings to justify both feats and applying them since the movie is canon.
I can't wait for cour 4 to -
 
Thats not what I said at all, I NEVER said cour 4 is relevant nor addresses anything relating to this topic, that is a lie.
You verbatim said
"That's why I said anything soul king tier related is left for Cour 4 as there is not enough evidences to justify them"
So what about the other realms in bleach that is also stated to be sustained by the soul king?
Idc
Also where does ichigo start feeling the weight, is at the beginning or at the ending of the trail? because in both sections Because ichigo feels different magnitude of forces acting on him on beginning of the trail and at the end. Note these are rhetorical questions I don't expect you to answer them because nothing you say would be concrete and if you answer them I won't even bother responding to an argument that isn’t CRT worthy.
There's nothing to answer. Ichigo wants to protect the realms and feels the weight of what he wants to protect.
If you plan to continue this argument then you are unironically asserting Ichigo’s LS to be immeasurable without concrete evidence,
No, you're assuming the "realms" refer to the entire spacetime continuums rather than just the 3D space.
Thats your business, none of the staff addresses that nor does it change any of the point I made and proved in this CRT. And what does it matter anyway if what I am still saying IS BACKED UP BY MY OWN SCANS.
It is my business because using AI like that is strictly against the rules. Especially if you use it to overinflate your responses in order to tire out any potential opposition to discourage them from replying.
Now I'm not saying that's what you're doing but your reaction here looks very much like you're admitting to it…
I won't even bother addressing something I have already addressed seeing as its clearly rage bait.
It's not a ragebait, you can't just call an argument that you can't address ragebait.

The 0.00000whatever005 number I got was actually specifically by comparing the distance Yhwach moved the rubble to his full range and then finding an equivalent of that to a Gorilla assuming it's average 2.5 meter range.

In other words I tried to get an mathematical perfect equivalent to be as fair as possible.
Notice how you say few kilometers away, after I corrected you that the range of movement is billions of miles MULTIPLE TIMES already completely cementing your poor unfounded arguments.
Few is a relative term. And compared to the diameter of 3 universes, billions of kilometers are "few". Literally less than a millionth, I'm pretty sure saying that's "few" in this context is grammatically accurate.
And no character has used just their aura to lift something or perform a substantial feat.
Neither did Yhwach here if his LS is universal. Lifting something 180 nonillion times below your LS is NOT substantial.
Then the burden of proof would be on you to prove that they were impressed since you are the one who made the original claim.
Please don't strawman me. I claimed 2 specific people considered it impressive - one of who was Yhwachs right hand man.

I never said Ichigo said it's impressive.
Since you want to appeal to possibility
I'm not appealing to possibility you're just not understanding my argument.
This argument isn't about the magnitude but the fact that both showings are much lower than the rating they scale to. So you basically are trying to say the difference here is higher so therefore means this shouldn't scale but this one should. This is invalid as both are astronomical value differences and no where in this wiki is outlier difference quantifed. So if you want to disagree with the LS, then AP, Range and SS should be removed as well.
No you're once again just not understanding the argument. Which is weird because it's YOUR argument time.

You said they were impressed by the distance. I debunked it by pointing out the distance is literally over hundred quadrillion times lower than Yhwachs and Senjumarus active ranges meaning they couldn't have been impressed by that.
Proof of this? How would they fathom a power that only Aizen and ichigo can sense lol.
Do you think Yhwachs main henchmen have absolutely 0 knowledge on S0, Yhwach, Soul King, Ichigo, or hell even Uryu and Renji? And by nonillions of times?
They didn't even know about the S0 power so how would they fully know about the reio. The only case you can make here who knows what reio is capable off is jugram and even he is not shocked by what yhwach can do.
Jugram called the feat "truly magnificent".

You're basically saying Jugram was thinking "wow, performing a feat nonillions of times weaker than what not only my colleague but even fodders like Renji can perform after having absorbed the literal soul king is truly magnificent!"
Exacly and they are unaware, they didn't know about S0 blood oath seal, they didn't even fully understood what yhwach became ONLY jugram. So for you to assert the opposite would be to prove that with scans and not incoherent arguments.
Okay so both Yhwach and Jugram purposely left out fundamental information about the enemy's strength and Uryu who was as powerful as that also decided to not say anything?

Yeah they prepared anti-shinigami bankai absorption technology but didn't think it's important to mention the enemy can passively crush them with force decillion times superior to themselves.
Different verses still fall under this wiki rules
Yes but Daewi doesn't scale to his shit because of "wiki rules" but because he's shown to do so.
Which you FAILED to do as different verses have different energy systems which this wiki shows. Bleach notably has UES which is listed under the wiki's UES distribution page GOH doesn't making your analogy fall short. Also notice how wiki seperates UES, LES and other distribution systems but doesn't separate verses when it comes to outlier rules. It's funny how you say GOH is different than bleach when it comes to outlier but its not different when you are the one making the comparisons lol.
Again you don't even understand what we're talking about here.
Well I thought she did, because a lot of people don't know that. Regardless this is an irrelevant argument that you keep dragging out that holds no root to the overall message of my CRT.
Saying this after dropping 3 individual AI generated comments as a response is very ironic.

Also calm down there young man, you've been really unnecessarily aggressive throughout this entire response.
A reasoning i debunked but I will add your name there regardless.

No it doesn't at all LMAO.
Case in point.
 
I will tag the summary to the CRT so any staff who enters will read the proposal and counter arguments and form a conclusion on which argumentation is superior. I will not address any of the existing argument further, as I believe I have already sufficiently addressed and outrightly debunked any existing counters as it is pointless continue and said counters rely on skepticism (some misformed. Granted, not everyone fully recalls the movie and canon source and i have clarified any misinformation i have seen) and I also believe they do not debunk the overall sheer weight of concrete reasonings back with scans and multiple instances of relative scaling in my proposed scaling.

Now I believe due to the outlier concerns (despite this concern not existing in other physical stats CRTs) can cause complications so I am fine with proposing a possibly and likely LS rating as I believe the sheer weight of my argumentation should not be dismissed by skepticism, unfounded possibilities and speculation.

I am greatful to everyone involved in the thread. Thank you all
 
I will tag the summary to the CRT so any staff who enters will read the proposal and counter arguments and form a conclusion on which argumentation is superior. I will not address any of the existing argument further, as I believe I have already sufficiently addressed and outrightly debunked any existing counters as it is pointless continue and said counters rely on skepticism (some misformed. Granted, not everyone fully recalls the movie and canon source and i have clarified any misinformation i have seen) and I also believe they do not debunk the overall sheer weight of concrete reasonings back with scans and multiple instances of relative scaling in my proposed scaling.

Now I believe due to the outlier concerns (despite this concern not existing in other physical stats CRTs) can cause complications so I am fine with proposing a possibly and likely LS rating as I believe the sheer weight of my argumentation should not be dismissed by skepticism, unfounded possibilities and speculation.

I am greatful to everyone involved in the thread. Thank you all
This discussion is getting unnecessarily long, I will reiterate my suggestion, for now wait for more people to vote and be patient until this discussion is over, after this place is closed you can start a separate more organized discussion for Ls, if you do this you will be able to express yourself better.
 
i agree with both AP and LS. Honestly, i was hoping that you‘d mention the blank‘s rather than the shockwave itself as an LS feat.
 
I agree with Ap, but I can't say the same for LS. For example, if we were to measure LS based on Reiatsu, we'd be saying that someone physically weaker than Komamura could lift more weight than Komamura. The reason a character isn't knocked down by someone else's Reiatsu isn't because of their muscular strength, but because they have more Reiatsu within themselves. It's possible that Senjumaru has more Ap than Senna, but doesn't have enough LS to perform Senna's feat. And as far as I understand, Senna doesn't perform the feat with her physical LS.
 
I agree with Ap, but I can't say the same for LS. For example, if we were to measure LS based on Reiatsu, we'd be saying that someone physically weaker than Komamura could lift more weight than Komamura.
yes they can? Unohana was phyically overpowering Kenpachi physically who is as strong if not stronger because she has more reaistu. Kommamura is physically larger than unohana so he doesn't need as much reaistu as she does because reiatsu amplifies existing strength. Further proof is when aizen physically overpowers Kommamura MULTIPLE TIMES.

Note: this isn't me saying Kommamura is physically stronger than her, he isn't.

This doesn't mean everyone without reaitsu have the same strength.
The reason a character isn't knocked down by someone else's Reiatsu isn't because of their muscular strength, but because they have more Reiatsu within themselves. It's possible that Senjumaru has more Ap than Senna, but doesn't have enough LS to perform Senna's feat. And as far as I understand, Senna doesn't perform the feat with her physical LS.
Please read my CRT and read the thread more carefully even others didn't bring this argumentation. I have thoroughly explained my stance and backed it up with scans.
 
i agree with both AP and LS. Honestly, i was hoping that you‘d mention the blank‘s rather than the shockwave itself as an LS feat.
Qaws explained the reasoning of senna's shockwave not being LS to which after much deliberation I agreed with because the feat itself is instantaneous.

However, I am still the off argument that these characters who scales above senna's force overpowering the universal pull AP wise should add consistency for LS superior ratings to the blanks LS feat as well. Since these characters are continually releasing senna level AP force which is superior to the LS force from the blanks. This is me not saying that senna's explosion counts as LS tho just clearing that up.
 
I support the AP part of the feat, it was a big contention back then because there weren’t any feats near that level but now there a couple. That said, I highly disagree with anyone other than God tiers scaling to this since they’re the ones with actual higher feats that would relate to it. Your examples of Uryu and Ichigo make no sense when base Uryu(who you try and use as a basis even though he spent the majority of both with fights in his V2 form) scales to TS Ichigo. When that’s directly disproven by the fact when Ichigo sent one Getsuga his way, he dove out of the way and Ichigo was on top of him right after. Then he immediately used his strongest form to fight an Ichigo who was holding back, while he went all out. This was confirmed by the anime team on the official anime site.

Renji especially doesn’t scale, sure he overpowered base Uryu(who already doesn’t scale to TS Ichigo) failed to do any damage with his second strongest attack. The second Uryu used his first stage VS, Renji was outclassed. He barely deflected an arrow, and got overwhelmed by a barrage from Uryu. The second Uryu used his V2 Vollstandig, Renji got put down immediately. And that’s the only version that remotely scales to Ichigo considering Uryu didn’t feel confident enough in either fights to let it play out while he was in base(as he did against Renji).

The LS is a whole different can of worms. We have Ichigo taking a specific test to see if he can withstand the weight of the 3 realms, and he struggles with it. But what you’re suggesting is people who are far weaker scale to his LS even though we’re shown by the most damning evidence, Renji couldn’t even stand up in Ichibei’s room due to how strong the reishi was. He spent almost a day there and the best he could manage was to stand in one spot and stare at rukia. That’s such a stark contrast to Ichigo who was walking around no problem and never once commented he felt anything pressure from being there
 
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I don't think UES should be used as an excuse to scale characters to Lifting Strength values that has no supporting feats whatsoever close to this proposed level.
Are you of the opinion if LS were to scale it would only scale to the 3 people that actually performed a feat of this level? Because even looking at them base value, Ichigo struggled just walking the path that gives him a universal or higher LS feat.

Thats a far difference imo to clashing with someone and then assuming they use all the strength it took to perform the feat and using that to hit someone
 
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