[STAFF INPUT PLEASE] Changing Pokemon 'Protagonist' pages

[Jinx666]

Masters gives the characters Pokemon from out of their region and doesnt align with the mainline since they tend to split storybeats between the male and female protag (if they aren't interchangeable rivals iirc). Masters also works on a separate battle system with separate moves that dont 100% align with the games. A lot of the time, the trainers catch them on Pasio too.
Thats all ill be saying about Masters EX because it doesn't really have a place in the CRT and to avoid further convo

The 'Player' knows how to make that, not Elio himself. If we're trying to composite an entire RPG base, then it would need to be based on the player itself. Unlike other RPGs that dont have a set non-mute character you customise every aspect of (such as Cloud), Thats who the Pokemon trainers are. Even Smash calls it 'Pokemon Trainer' instead of calling them Red, and included Leaf in Ultimate, so actual experts would also deem them this way when it comes to player insert characters

And is one of the worst moments in the whole verse

Being bad writing =/= not being able to use it. We cant cherrypick.

Its a standard that Trainers can only use 6 caught Pokemon at a time in a battle, and cant swap Pokemon mid battle as per the game rules. Thats been universal since the very first games.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Masters gives the characters Pokemon from out of their region and doesnt align with the mainline since they tend to split storybeats between the male and female protag (if they aren't interchangeable rivals iirc). Masters also works on a separate battle system with separate moves that dont 100% align with the games. A lot of the time, the trainers catch them on Pasio too.

The games themselves give the characters Pokemon from out of their region too. Only difference is that Masters is after a small timeskip. And they don't catch them on Pasio, because there are no wild Pokemon on Pasio (though there are technicalities like Hau's Tapu Koko being from an alt universe), and even if they were that would be all the more reason to include it.

Thats all ill be saying about Masters EX because it doesn't really have a place in the CRT and to avoid further convo

Yes it does, because it's canon now, remember?

The 'Player' knows how to make that, not Elio himself. If we're trying to composite an entire RPG base, then it would need to be based on the player itself. Unlike other RPGs that dont have a set non-mute character you customise every aspect of (such as Cloud), Thats who the Pokemon trainers are. Even Smash calls it 'Pokemon Trainer' instead of calling them Red, and included Leaf in Ultimate, so actual experts would also deem them this way when it comes to player insert characters

Alright, so the Dragonborn doesn't know how to enchant things or make potions.

Being bad writing =/= not being able to use it. We cant cherrypick.

I didn't say it was unusable, I said it was one of the worst moments in the whole verse.

Its a standard that Trainers can only use 6 caught Pokemon at a time in a battle, and cant swap Pokemon mid battle as per the game rules. Thats been universal since the very first games.

Isn't that... the exact opposite of what the scan implies?

 

[Jinx666]

Im not getting into a text wall about it but

• Masters EX is 'secondary canon' (and no one has elaborated which type), and wont take priority over mainline if it contradicts it. All information in regards to it will need to be discussed properly before implementing.
• Pokemon is nothing like Skyrim, theres no comparison needed between a creature collecting JRPG (the creature-collecting being the crucial difference that means we dont automatically use the same rules for Pokemon as other games) and an Open World RPG. Different verses require different standards, and the concept of owning Pokemon itself has far more variables compared to equipping different spells onto one character.
• No, the moment Ash swaps Pokemon inbetween a gym battle by running to a Pokemon center which Elesa so kindly allowed him to do so doesnt take precedence or even support in context the fact trainers cant carry more than 6 officially caught Pokemon, and cant use anything beyond mid battle. The Anime quite obviously is also a vastly different in battle-system to the games.

Not responding further to Sean for now.


Atp i dont think we even need to set standard teams since people clearly wanna composite the entire NatDex (even stuff like legendaries that dont have static encounters and wouldnt make a lick of sense to be canonically 'traded' given their status), so its better off just mentioning off hand stuff like the starter trio, the static encounters and the two box legendaries and then letting people use their imagination.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

• Masters EX is 'secondary canon' (and no one has elaborated which type), and wont take priority over mainline if it contradicts it. All information in regards to it will need to be discussed properly before implementing.

Correct. That means that everything is canon about it except its contradictions... which you have been unable to name.

• Pokemon is nothing like Skyrim, theres no comparison needed between a creature collecting JRPG (the creature-collecting being the crucial difference that means we dont automatically use the same rules for Pokemon as other games) and an Open World RPG. Different verses require different standards, and the concept of owning Pokemon itself has far more variables compared to equipping different spells onto one character.

Ok, but that wasn't the comparison. And casting equipped Spells is wholy different from Enchanting and Alchemy, which is the thing we were talking about.

• No, the moment Ash swaps Pokemon inbetween a gym battle by running to a Pokemon center which Elesa so kindly allowed him to do so doesnt take precedence or even support in context the fact trainers cant carry more than 6 officially caught Pokemon, and cant use anything beyond mid battle. The Anime quite obviously is also a vastly different in battle-system to the games.

...Why even lecture me about supposedly calling something unusable if you don't even think it's usable either??

Atp i dont think we even need to set standard teams since people clearly wanna composite the entire NatDex (even stuff like legendaries that dont have static encounters and wouldnt make a lick of sense to be canonically 'traded' given their status), so its better off just mentioning off hand stuff like the starter trio, the static encounters and the two box legendaries and then letting people use their imagination.

Nobody said that though? And basically the moment they actually use the Poke Balls, Great Balls, Ultra Balls, etc they're all equipped with and catch wild Pokemon because that's what their literal goal is, that whole thing falls apart. To add to the usable parts of the list though, they'd also get the Pokemon they either obtain or are revealed to own in Masters; for example Elio's Eevee Egg canonically evolved into Espeon.

 

[Lou_change]

are the different game versions different universes I am not talking about remakes

 

[Bobsican]

are the different game versions different universes I am not talking about remakes

Yes, they have slightly different content/plots from each other.

 

[Lou_change]

Then how can it be claimed with certainty only one character is canon

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Then how can it be claimed with certainty only one character is canon

Because only one of them happen in the main game timeline.

 

[Jinx666]

Then how can it be claimed with certainty only one character is canon

They're the same but different versions. Neither should be more canon than the other, we just need to outline the differences between those versions when necessary. Like i've made the thread over, theres a lot of variables and unaccounted for differences in the current state of any protagonist profiles that should be properly revamped

When both versions are part of the mainline, then theres no secondary or external canon sources that can properly tell you which is which.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Elio’s profile needs to be updated, but not for the reasons Jinx thinks it does.

It’s very clear that everyone who has contributed to it hasn’t played the damn game, including the person who made the profile, and the people who updated it since are even worse since it’s obvious they didn’t even really know what to add other than the bits and pieces that they did know.

A few highlights from the Powers and Abilities section:

• “Phantasm Manipulation”
• “Expert Flyer”
• Status Effect Inducement for being able to lower defense
• “Power Increases”
• “Regeneration (Unknown)”
• “Opponent Trapping”
• “Rock Manipulation”

On top of just being a bad profile, it’s also nowhere close to comprehensive. The profile doesn’t even list Poké Pelago or the Ride Pager or the Rotom-Dex or Affection or Hyper Training or even ******* Z-Moves.

 

[Jinx666]

Bump

@KLOL506 Can you elaborate then whats exactly dumb about this? It feels like you've only responded to the thing that the CRT isnt trying to amend (Compositing profiles). What about making the Protagonist profiles include both male/female bases, calling them something that reflects how its a player-insert character and separating the standard things every player actually gets vs all the guess-work

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Bump

@KLOL506 Can you elaborate then whats exactly dumb about this? It feels like you've only responded to the thing that the CRT isnt trying to amend (Compositing profiles). What about making the Protagonist profiles include both male/female bases, calling them something that reflects how its a player-insert character and separating the standard things every player actually gets vs all the guess-work

Regular users can't tag people.

 

[Jinx666]

useful ig

 

[Jinx666]

Bump

So do ppl at least agree with including both genders of protags and calling them the Player?

 

[Lou_change]

I think that makes sense

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I don’t, for reasons I’ve already stated.

 

[Jinx666]

Bump

 

[Random-Helper323]

Wouldn't these player pages be separated from the Red, Ethan, Brendan, etcetera pages since they're basically player made characters?

 

[Jinx666]

Wouldn't these player pages be separated from the Red, Ethan, Brendan, etcetera pages since they're basically player made characters?

Maybe the Red one, but for the others they;d have to be replaced because the current profiles are treating them AS the mainline player characters.

They could get their own named profiles if they were Masters EX versions, for example, since theyre actual characters there, but the ones we have only consider one of the two m/f protagonists and the actual character in canon has nothing to say they canonically own EVERYTHING a player you can get in-game.

 

[Lou_change]

actual character in canon has nothing to say they canonically own EVERYTHING a player you can get in-game.

1. Nothing says they don't.
2. We are an indexing wiki why wouldn't we be comprehensive?
3. Wouldn't pretty much everything but key items be optional equipment anyway.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Bro’s trying so hard to make Masters noncanon again

 

[Jinx666]

1. Nothing says they don't.
2. We are an indexing wiki why wouldn't we be comprehensive?
3. Wouldn't pretty much everything but key items be optional equipment anyway.

1. Nothing inversely says they do either. And in the wiki, we obviously dont put thinks on the profile if they arent outright confirmed or treat it. And, yeah, it is very hard to make the claim that characters like Brendan or w/e would have access to their entire leading-up-to National Dex, including creatures like Arceus or other legendaries they cant actually obtain normally as a CANON character.
If anything, Masters EX making them separate canon characters also further proves they dont have access to every possible Pokemonn you can get ingames, and instead has their own interpretation (the chaarcters in themself do not recognise certain pokemon that they should)
2. I...have no idea what you're responding to this with, this is just about making the profiles actually based off the player-insert protagonist instead of assuming that this is canon. You can index what you what, but theres a difference between making something comprehensive, and then trying to push every single possible composite thing whats essentially an OC can have for the sake of filling the page
3. Yeah? Thats...exactly what my OP is suggesting? The current profiles dont say it like that whatsoever

 

[Jinx666]

But yeah overall.

Protagonist pages following the mainline sequences. And then for actual NPC character interpretations of the protagonists from games such as Masters EX, make them separate characters that follow their OWN separate interpretation

Because the character you PLAY as, name, and decide the Pokemon Teams as a reflection of how YOU want to play, isn't then the exact same to the actual canon presence of that character.

As such, we move the current pages we have to blogs, then they get edited to fit this criteria over people simply choosing whose the canon protagonist as their favourite. Actual consistent non-insert characters are fine on this.

 

[Lou_change]

Nothing inversely says they do either. And in the wiki, we obviously dont put thinks on the profile if they arent outright confirmed or treat it. And, yeah, it is very hard to make the claim that characters like Brendan or w/e would have access to their entire leading-up-to National Dex, including creatures like Arceus or other legendaries they cant actually obtain normally as a CANON character.

Diploma

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

 

[Jinx666]

As much as thats a goal for the PLAYER, it doesnt mean the canonical protag has all of that.

Like im afraid as much as this wiki wants to index, it seems to composite a lot of...unconfirmed information that varies towards it.

Now if its a character like Rei/Akari who HAVE to complete their dex before fighting the actual Arceus, thats fair enough. But everyone else is like...optional content. I dont think my playthroughs have ever properly completed a Pokedex other than Legends Arceus.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

As much as thats a goal for the PLAYER, it doesnt mean the canonical protag has all of that.

Like im afraid as much as this wiki wants to index, it seems to composite a lot of...unconfirmed information that varies towards it.

Now if its a character like Rei/Akari who HAVE to complete their dex before fighting the actual Arceus, thats fair enough. But everyone else is like...optional content. I dont think my playthroughs have ever properly completed a Pokedex other than Legends Arceus.

Dude, that's like saying "I have yet to finish a Devil May Cry game, therefore Dante shouldn't be given all his feats from them." In many of these games, filling up the Pokedex is the protag's literal goal and the goal of the adventure that the Professor sends them on. In fact we treat Samus Aran has having the max amount of Missiles, Super MIssiles, Aeon, and most importantly Energy Tanks regardless of how well they are hidden or how hard the puzzle from all her games, so ofc we're going to do the same with Pokemon trainers and the much easier to find items.

 

[Jinx666]

The difference between comparing ACTUAL CHARACTERS like Dante and Samus, to mute player insert characters that need external content MAKING them NPCs to show any form of character should be obvious.
Saying Dante using like, a tool in his arsenal that the player doesnt have to use is the same as we all having to assume that the 10 year old player insert canonically has/uses every single possibility of Pokemon customisation is just overbloated. Thats YOU doing that, not the canon character.

Pokemon functions very different to all these games, and other RPGs. Theres exponentially more customisations and the only things 'set' are the storybeats. So no, i dont think it is IS like the way you're describing or the examples of actual characters.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

The difference between comparing ACTUAL CHARACTERS like Dante and Samus, to mute player insert characters that need external content MAKING them NPCs to show any form of character should be obvious.
Saying Dante using like, a tool in his arsenal that the player doesnt have to use is the same as we all having to assume that the 10 year old player insert canonically has/uses every single possibility of Pokemon customisation is just overbloated.

Pokemon functions very different to all these games, and other RPGs. Theres exponentially more customisations and the only things 'set' are the storybeats. So no, i dont think it is IS like the way you're describing or the examples of actual characters.

I don't recall bringing Pokemon Masters into this. And we also do the same for characters like Frisk from Undertale and Ness from Earthbound.

"Erm well we don't actually KNOW what Pokemon they have!!" How 'bout all of them?

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

.Pokemon functions very different to all these games, and other RPGs. Theres exponentially more customisations and the only things 'set' are the storybeats. So no, i dont think it is IS like the way you're describing or the examples of actual characters.

No it doesn't, we let Megami Tensei characters like Joker have access to every possible Demon/Persona and piece of equipment they can get.

 

[Jinx666]

"Erm well we don't actually KNOW what Pokemon they have!!" How 'bout all of them?

Yeah, but to me, thats just because people are looking to try and make the character look as powerful and versatile as possible when in reality, no, theres no above-all canon interpretation of these characters and what they have.
Feels more like we have an agenda when we dont apply scrutiny, and try to overflow pages with too much irrelevant information. And then composite on top of that.

No it doesn't, we let Megami Tensei characters like Joker have access to every possible Demon/Persona and piece of equipment they can get.

Yeah except Joker
A) IS a character. Hes mute, but being mute doesnt necessarily mean you arent an actual character in the story. Hes named, you dont customise him at all, and he plays an active role/arc in the story compared to the player character who is quite literally...just you at the wheel. Theres little to no things you can properly attribute to that player character doing.
B) Joker is someone who has a canonical ability of being able to use all the accessible Personas. In Pokemon, theres no distinction made.
C) Pokemon is still very separate to SMT/Persona as a creature-capturing game. Theres similarities but if anything, Pokemon should be setting the precedent on this genre and not other series. The way Joker uses his Personas and fights alongside them, compared to the player character being able to use a Team of 6 and have to actively give commands for THEM to do the fighting is different

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Yeah, but to me, thats just because people are looking to try and make the character look as powerful and versatile as possible when in reality, no, theres no above-all canon interpretation of these characters and what they have.
Feels more like we have an agenda when we dont apply scrutiny, and try to overflow pages with too much irrelevant information. And then composite on top of that.

That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be indexed.

Yeah except Joker
A) IS a character. Hes mute, but being mute doesnt necessarily mean you arent an actual character in the story. Hes named, you dont customise him at all, and he plays an active role/arc in the story compared to the player character who is quite literally...just you at the wheel. Theres little to no things you can properly attribute to that player character doing.

Yes there is. You directly help with things and other characters thank you for your help in whatever crisis happened. Also we shouldn’t just not include people’s feats because you can give them new damn clothes.

B) Joker is someone who has a canonical ability of being able to use all the accessible Personas. In Pokemon, theres no distinction made.

The 8th Gym Badge.

C) Pokemon is still very separate to SMT/Persona as a creature-capturing game. Theres similarities but if anything, Pokemon should be setting the precedent on this genre and not other series. The way Joker uses his Personas and fights alongside them, compared to the player character being able to use a Team of 6 and have to actively give commands for THEM to do the fighting is different

Why is it different?

 

[Jinx666]

That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be indexed.

Thats not the point nor what im saying. In fact these changes are what will accomodate being able to index what the PLAYER can access (and not what the protagonist canonically uses in general, ranging from pokemon teams to movesets to whatever items held and other niche things), instead of trying to put one trainers canonicity over another when there clearly isnt one. Someones already listed off the examples of this in Pokemon media, and Masters EX as your main source takes its own interpretation (and can distributecanon mainline events between the male and female protag)

Why 'index' completely optional assets to the extent of 'Oh yeah, we can assume that this character has Arceus because Arceus is in the games files from the NatDex as long as its able to be traded'? If its not trying to ramp up tiers of course...

(the rest of the stuff aren't your points so im not responding)


Anyway yeah. Theres no issue with 'indexing' things, but please do it under the guise of the actual Player as opposed to assuming that the canon Ethan/Lyra or Victor/Gloria for example actually own absolutely everything the player can get. And if people were wanting to Index everything, they should also be included the fact that this character can be the Male or Female counterpart.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Yeah, but to me, thats just because people are looking to try and make the character look as powerful and versatile as possible when in reality, no, theres no above-all canon interpretation of these characters and what they have.

Again, there are things in-canon that indicate the player has captured all Pokemon.

Feels more like we have an agenda when we dont apply scrutiny, and try to overflow pages with too much irrelevant information. And then composite on top of that.

We just try to be thorough.

Yeah except Joker
A) IS a character. Hes mute, but being mute doesnt necessarily mean you arent an actual character in the story. Hes named, you dont customise him at all, and he plays an active role/arc in the story compared to the player character who is quite literally...just you at the wheel. Theres little to no things you can properly attribute to that player character doing.

Joker is a character, but he's not named. You can choose your own name for him, and the only "canon" names he have are found in supplemental material. He's just as customizable as the pre-Gen 6 Pokemon protagonists (as in, not very much besides the name). Of course, both Joker and the Pokemon protagonists' entire movesets and equipment are entirely up to the player's discretion.

The Pokemon protagonists are very active in their stories in that they are the ones who go and defeat the evil teams, the big bads, etcetera. They are just as involved in the plot of their games as Joker is (their games just have less story than Persona 5).

B) Joker is someone who has a canonical ability of being able to use all the accessible Personas. In Pokemon, theres no distinction made.

I used Joker as an example because his profile was the best of the Megami Tensei protagonists, but fine, look at the mainline Shin Megami Tensei protagonists then, who just recruit Demons to their side. Sometimes, the protagonist has the special ability to recruit Demons, sometimes anyone can recruit them.

(Also, I want to point out that we let characters like Joker access New Game+ stuff).

C) Pokemon is still very separate to SMT/Persona as a creature-capturing game.

Please explain how.

Theres similarities but if anything, Pokemon should be setting the precedent on this genre and not other series.

You do know that Megami Tensei as a franchise was around for about a decade before Pokemon even existed, right?

The way Joker uses his Personas and fights alongside them, compared to the player character being able to use a Team of 6 and have to actively give commands for THEM to do the fighting is different

Why does that matter at all?

Thats not the point nor what im saying. In fact these changes are what will accomodate being able to index what the PLAYER can access (and not what the protagonist canonically uses in general, ranging from pokemon teams to movesets to whatever items held and other niche things), instead of trying to put one trainers canonicity over another when there clearly isnt one. Someones already listed off the examples of this in Pokemon media, and Masters EX as your main source takes its own interpretation (and can distributecanon mainline events between the male and female protag)

Why 'index' completely optional assets to the extent of 'Oh yeah, we can assume that this character has Arceus because Arceus is in the games files from the NatDex as long as its able to be traded'? If its not trying to ramp up tiers of course...

(the rest of the stuff aren't your points so im not responding)


Anyway yeah. Theres no issue with 'indexing' things, but please do it under the guise of the actual Player as opposed to assuming that the canon Ethan/Lyra or Victor/Gloria for example actually own absolutely everything the player can get. And if people were wanting to Index everything, they should also be included the fact that this character can be the Male or Female counterpart.

Wait, you're basically agreeing with me then. Why are we arguing about this?

 

[Lou_change]

Why 'index' completely optional assets to the extent of 'Oh yeah, we can assume that this character has Arceus because Arceus is in the games files from the NatDex as long as its able to be traded'? If its not trying to ramp up tiers of course...

I mean I think arceus has literally every power in the verse so technically it probably wouldn't be used because there is no point in the trainer being there given any other Pokemon and item can do exactly nothing to change the outcome because arceus does everything already

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I mean I think arceus has literally every power in the verse so technically it probably wouldn't be used because there is no point in the trainer being there given any other Pokemon and item can do exactly nothing to change the outcome because arceus does everything already

The Original Spirit does.

 

[Lou_change]

don't the plates also do that?

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

don't the plates also do that?

Yes they do.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

The Plates give Types, not every hax in the verse.

 

[Lou_change]

I am pretty sure the profile says what I thought

 

[Jinx666]

Wait, you're basically agreeing with me then. Why are we arguing about this?

Idk? lost in translation

I just dont think 'we need to index everything' means we have to try and make it about the canon character.

And yeah, do i honestly have to describe why Pokemon is not SMT??? Ive literally already explained it multiple times above.