[STAFF INPUT PLEASE] Changing Pokemon 'Protagonist' pages

[Jinx666]

Okay, so? That's kind of just how it has to be then, especially since almost every time other gen legendaries get involved is usually post-game shit anyways so the scaling doesn't get quite as ***** as it sounds. Besides that, sometimes the Creation Trio unironically do get involved with the actual story stuff like Rainbow Rocket Cyrus having them as part of his battle team and then still being inferior to Rainbow Rocket Giovanni.

No, it doesnt lol. Its this form of thinking that has led Pokemon to its current state. We should be applying a lot more scrutiny to things and not using absolute every possible player choice liike extralinking ever.

If the Creation Trio get 'involved' in the actual game and story, fair enough. But otherwise, no. It reaches to the point of fanon and we shouldnt be doing that just because you can technically get 'any pokemon' through trading.
What does this mean for Protags post-Galar too? When you cant even obtain EVERY Pokemon for a gameplay-reason and not anything in literal lore preventing them from having it

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

You're making these profiles for the basis of them being characters in a story. They're a blank slate character insert that the player gets to customize how they see fit.

Ergo, yeah sure, its fine to list every potential Pokemon they can logically obtain in their region/dex (and anything in post game wilds ig?). However it becomes massively convoluted and farfetchd if you then try to say they get access to every Pokemon you have to use extralinking from other games to give them, as thats literally a mechanic made for players to get to use any Pokemon they want. It also forces them into tiers that they dont realistically scale to.

You cant use this sort of logic either because technically someone can get an Arceus and whatnot before like, the 2nd gym badge if they use this trading. Trying to account for all these possibilities that do not fit the story as opposed to making each protag represent the REGION theyre in is just unnecessarily convoluted and causes more issues than its worth. The only incentive to do it is upscaling

I'm not saying give them everything right from the get go, I'm saying trying to restrict their arsenal in general is super dumb. I don't care if it gets labeled as optional equipment or not or whatever, but having standard equipment only be Pokémon that the story forces you to catch or obtain would limit almost all of them to not even having a full team of six and that's also clearly bullshit.

 

[Jinx666]

I'm not saying give them everything right from the get go, I'm saying trying to restrict their arsenal in general is super dumb. I don't care if it gets labeled as optional equipment or not or whatever, but having standard equipment only be Pokémon that the story forces you to catch or obtain would limit almost all of them to not even having a full team of six and that's also clearly bullshit.

'Restricting their arsenal' when the arsenal in question is trying to say these characters all have every legendary known to them just because of extra linking and Nat Dex isnt as bad as iy seems.

If you'd read OP again too, i'm trying to make all unconfirmed variables the 'Optional', not the Standard. Theres no canon 'full team of six', these are Protag players who do nothing but be a player insert so their kit will be optional and variable just on that basis

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

'Restricting their arsenal' when the arsenal in question is trying to say these characters all have every legendary known to them just because of extra linking and Nat Dex isnt as bad as iy seems.

The Nat Dex is still part of the story, its a piece of equipment that's forced upon you after clearing the main game so you can't just say it doesn't make any sense, especially since you get an actual in-game achievement for completing it.

If you'd read OP again too, i'm trying to make all unconfirmed variables the 'Optional', not the Standard. Theres no canon 'full team of six', these are Protag players who do nothing but be a player insert so their kit will be optional and variable just on that basis

And literally everyone who's played a Pokémon game will tell you that's really dumb.

 

[Jinx666]

At the same time dex completion is a core aspect of completion in the series, and is even directly noticed whenever it happens in every game.

Yeah, main dex that is
Technically completing the entire Nat Dex isnt even legal because a lot of Mythicals/Legendaries cant even legally be obtained. Trying to link characters to Pokemon they wouldnt realistically own and then saying 'lol yeah so they have the ENTIRE NAT DEX' isnt the best way to put it.

The setting goes out of its way to enable this in a natural manner as explained before, so this seems more like an argument from incredulity than a proper way to address the further inconsistencies that this approach would do (such as making double standards relative to the current way the series is treated, given that the canon split was debunked as you may recall, as well as pretending that stuff like the Sinjoh Ruins event in HGSS isn't canon out of requiring an Arceus obtained from DPPt). We do already scale several trainers after Gen 4 to tier 2, so it isn't really that groundbreaking by the standards of the series at this point.

I dont recall canon split being 'debunked', and i still dont agree with it whatsoever. There are very obviously differences in continuity for things such as the games, anime and manga but theres a lot of mental gymnastics that goes on to try and convince theyre all the same?

Its not a natural manner, you can say they have a Nat Dex for whatever mons they can obtain, but people arent scrutinising the implications of trying to give every Protag EVERY POKEMON. Sure, it makes your characters look super powerful and haxxed but it doesnt make sense to put in when the game doesnt even give you a way to obtain them outside of trading (which in lore, isnt always anything to do with the 'multiverse'. you're just trading with the same player inserts)

 

[KLOL506]

This thread feels awfully familiar to this one...

Also, "Optional Equipment" is usually reserved ONLY for equipment that is used scarcely and then discarded afterwards. This is not how you should be using that, especially with a mechanic that has such a deep connection to the story overall.

I'm sorry but this thread is just dumb, and the stonewalling isn't changing shit here, and the "Optional Equipment" arguments just don't fly.

@Planck69 @DarkDragonMedeus @Maverick_Zero_X @Qawsedf234 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Elizhaa @Starter_Pack @Reiner04 @ActuallySpaceMan42 @KingTempest @Catzlaflame @UchihaSlayer96 @Emirp sumitpo @Nierre @Dalesean027 @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Vietthai96 @Imaginym @Godernet Please handle this.

 

[Jinx666]

The Nat Dex is still part of the story, its a piece of equipment that's forced upon you after clearing the main game so you can't just say it doesn't make any sense, especially since you get an actual in-game achievement for completing it.

It isnt necessarily. Its post-game content. Its done so that players can actually use and trade in Pokemon from other games you cant access. This is a matter of the PLAYER (the person playing the game) and not the actual in-verse character.

your in-game achievment is never anything relevant itself either. Most players i guarantee you dont ever complete the NatDex (which you cant legally do as i mentioned above)

And literally everyone who's played a Pokémon game will tell you that's really dumb.

Well its not? And you dont seem to be arguing why.

Giving a player-insert character with no personality of their own everything 'standardised' is eliminating all the variables in themself. There is little to no canon indications of how the character really is or what they use, so as such, when it comes to protags in versus threads for example, things like their Pokemon Teams need to be highlighted. You can only confirm the progression of the actual game (such as 'they beat all 8 gym leaders and the champion' or 'They caught/fought this legendary').

 

[Jinx666]

Also, "Optional Equipment" is usually reserved ONLY for equipment that is used scarcely and then discarded afterwards. This is not how you should be using that, especially with a mechanic that has such a deep connection to the story overall.

No, you can also use Optional Equipment in this context. Just like you are given the option to make your own Pokemon team.

Theres little-to-no canon confirmation on who these protags are or the Pokemon use, and thus their kit is highly variable and optional instead of assuming they just own the strongest of every pokemon ever at a time because you can implausibly do that technically.

There is no 'Standard' and their Kit is completely down to interpretation. All we can do is list what those variables are.

This is also why making Protag profiles is a nightmare in itself and should have been discussed LONG before this. They're essentially 'build your own Pokemon character' OCs who are only confirmed held to the game progression. The way we composite them liike whats being proposed invites nothing but inverse scaling

 

[Bobsican]

Yeah, main dex that is
Technically completing the entire Nat Dex isnt even legal because a lot of Mythicals/Legendaries cant even legally be obtained. Trying to link characters to Pokemon they wouldnt realistically own and then saying 'lol yeah so they have the ENTIRE NAT DEX' isnt the best way to put it.

Such as? There's no game where this is not possible if transfers and trades are fair game, the only things that are unobtainable legally are certain shiny Pokemon, but those are purely cosmetic by nature and don't affect scaling at all.

I dont recall canon split being 'debunked', and i still dont agree with it whatsoever. There are very obviously differences in continuity for things such as the games, anime and manga but theres a lot of mental gymnastics that goes on to try and convince theyre all the same?

Then I'm afraid that this isn't a point to begin with, the debunk is the status quo right now and would require another thread to reverse it.

Its not a natural manner, you can say they have a Nat Dex for whatever mons they can obtain, but people arent scrutinising the implications of trying to give every Protag EVERY POKEMON. Sure, it makes your characters look super powerful and haxxed but it doesnt make sense to put in when the game doesnt even give you a way to obtain them outside of trading (which in lore, isnt always anything to do with the 'multiverse'. you're just trading with the same player inserts)

The implications may raise the power level and whatever, but it's the way the series is, to put it blunt, I'm already fine with this stuff being its own separate key, so it wouldn't affect directly anything involving what's just obtainable in a vacuum per player.

 

[Jinx666]

Such as? There's no game where this is not possible if transfers and trades are fair game, the only things that are unobtainable legally are certain shiny Pokemon, but those are purely cosmetic by nature and don't affect scaling at all.

Arceus before Legends Arceus?

You gotta pokegene it cause otherwise there was like, 1 ToysRUs event or something? This doesnt impossibly stop you from completing the NatDex, but its not like its even legally possible (implausible) from an actual game-design end. So i dont see why we're pushing to give trainers these rando pokemon they dont associate with unless its to make them stronger

Then I'm afraid that this isn't a point to begin with, the debunk is the status quo right now and would require another thread to reverse it.

Then dont mention it. This CRT works completely independently to that, and theres 0 chance anyone is changing their minds on it (it is obvious and self-explanatory why Pokemon has different continuities, even if they belong to the same 'multiverse') so i wont be wasting the energy. Let that be the end of it

The implications may raise the power level and whatever, but it's the way the series is, to put it blunt, I'm already fine with this stuff being its own separate key, so it wouldn't affect directly anything involving what's just obtainable in a vacuum per player.

It isnt, its how people are choosing to make it and it doesnt make sense in the actual context of the series.

The actual mandatory story elements should be the standard. Anything the player can do by personal-choice (realistically) is all the optional stuff that will be down to the person who wants to discuss to interpret. However there should definitely be limits when trying to imply this character canonically owns Pokemon they...shouldn't have because meta-game explanations of someone trading their own pokemon between games exists. We're also ignoring the fact that Dexit (the current standard) is retconning this notion of needing to complete the 'NatDex'

This also just makes every Pokemon protagonist the same 'character', except the following protag will be 'stronger' by proxy. Its much better in essence to make them a representation of their actual region so they arent just clone profiles.

 

[Jinx666]

What happens when, because its possible to trade a Level 100 Giratina before the 2nd Gym of another game or smthn, becomes a reason to try and scale every Gym Leader or random route trainer to Tier 2-standards. Technically you can Those silly situations shouldnt be applied to the in-verse represntation of the player

There needs to be a lot better scrutiny and in-verse context being applied here as opposed to letting every random game mechanic and possibility get away with making everything scale to everything.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

What happens when, because its possible to trade a Level 100 Giratina before the 2nd Gym of another game or smthn, becomes a reason to try and scale every Gym Leader or random route trainer to Tier 2-standards. Technically you can

There needs to be a lot better scrutiny and in-verse context being applied here as opposed to letting every random game mechanic and possibility get away with making everything scale to everything.

Why do you keep using this example? It's so utterly disingenuous that it hurts your position more than it helps it. Obviously we're not gonna scale everything that early to the ******* Creation Trio, but these characters objectively CAN get these Pokémon eventually because the very series itself is built for them to do so, especially games where they show up naturally without trading between entirely different generations like the 3rd Gen Remakes where you can naturally fight and catch all of the Legendaries barring Arceus.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

My take is that regardless of whether we include NatDex stuff, it shouldn’t have any effect on any scaling outside of the MCs so it wouldn’t change much outside of a “NatDex” key or something. I understand the notion of modern games not having a NatDex anymore making it weird for only earlier MCs to have this super OP key, but if it doesn’t affect anything outside of a isolated portion that no real characters scale to then what’s the problem? This is an indexing site, and these Pokémon are something the MCs can potentially have.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

My take is that regardless of whether we include NatDex stuff, it shouldn’t have any effect on any scaling outside of the MCs so it wouldn’t change much outside of a “NatDex” key or something. I understand the notion of modern games not having a NatDex anymore making it weird for only earlier MCs to have this super OP key, but if it doesn’t affect anything outside of a isolated portion that no real characters scale to then what’s the problem? This is an indexing site, and these Pokémon are something the MCs can potentially have.

This. Thank you.

 

[Jinx666]

Why do you keep using this example? It's so utterly disingenuous that it hurts your position more than it helps it. Obviously we're not gonna scale everything that early to the ******* Creation Trio, but these characters objectively CAN get these Pokémon eventually because the very series itself is built for them to do so, especially games where they show up naturally without trading between entirely different generations like the 3rd Gen Remakes where you can naturally fight and catch all of the Legendaries barring Arceus.

This is my first time saying this example? And why even bother limiting the logic thats being put forward then if theres a point it gets ridiculous (like making everyone be able to scale to Tier 2 solely through game mechanics)? Obv i dont agree with it, but im wondering why theres this limit now when people are prior claiming that 'this is just how the verse works'

Objectively is the wrong word when it has nothing to do with the game, and there are tons of pokemon you cant obtain without using Extralink stuff.

ORAS Protag is completely fair game to give the accessible legendaries too. Most other games, not so much, because you cant obtain them naturally.

 

[Bobsican]

Arceus before Legends Arceus?

You gotta pokegene it cause otherwise there was like, 1 ToysRUs event or something?

We rate works based on stuff officially released, rather than currently supported stuff, otherwise by the same line of logic you'd end up with stuff like DLC being non-canon for any game as soon it's no longer officially sold, let alone entire works once they go out of print.

Then dont mention it. This works completely independently to that, and theres 0 chance anyone is changing their minds on it (it is obvious and self-explanatory why Pokemon has different continuities, even if they belong to the same 'multiverse') so i wont be wasting the energy. Let that be the end of it

I mean, part of the skepticism shown here is related to the inflated ratings that this approach would imply, if the canon split wasn't debunked here then we'd require feats for every Pokemon per game, rather than just defaulting stats for Pokemon (including legendaries) based on general portrayal across the Pokemon multimedia, which isn't the case, thus requiring the canon split being valid for this kind of point to hold any weight.

It isnt, its how people are choosing to make it and it doesnt make sense in the actual context of the series.

The actual mandatory story elements should be the standard. Anything the player can do by personal-choice (realistically) is all the optional stuff that will be down to the person who wants to discuss to interpret. However there should definitely be limits when trying to imply this character canonically owns Pokemon they...shouldn't have because meta-game explanations of someone trading their own pokemon between games exists. We're also ignoring the fact that Dexit (the current standard) is retconning this notion of needing to complete the 'NatDex'

1: This only applies from LGPE onwards
2: Even then, Home still supports the entire National Dex (notably even still having a National Dex order list for Gen 8+ Pokemon over just leaving them in limbo), showing that there's still intent for continuity with the inclusion of new Pokemon over it being a full reboot of the existent pool of Pokemon and the setting like with Ben 10
3: If we want to play it safe for those we can just limit to what's obtainable in-game without hacking, still leaving transfers and trades where applicable

This also just makes every Pokemon protagonist the same 'character', except the following protag will be 'stronger' by proxy. Its much better in essence to make them a representation of their actual region so they arent just clone profiles.

I mean, this is a common trope in general, if anything it eases indexing for our purposes and I don't see the issue beyond mere skepticism, we're not the originality police to demand that a series has to be more original with each entry or stuff like that, we just index things the way they are.

 

[Jinx666]

My take is that regardless of whether we include NatDex stuff, it shouldn’t have any effect on any scaling outside of the MCs so it wouldn’t change much outside of a “NatDex” key or something. I understand the notion of modern games not having a NatDex anymore making it weird for only earlier MCs to have this super OP key, but if it doesn’t affect anything outside of a isolated portion that no real characters scale to then what’s the problem? This is an indexing site, and these Pokémon are something the MCs can potentially have.

They cant 'potentially' have them in the context of the actual story just because of extralinking to other games. This is for players, but the actual CHARACTER of the protag has no real reason to include using legendaries they arent able to catch in the main game, and using that to justify giving them a large tier. It gets ridiculous to a point

Everything can scale to everything with this very same logic. You can make the exact same argument for Tier 2 Route 1 Pokemon (they can technically injure the creation trio) if people take game mechanics so literally, thats why its a pretty dangerous pipeline

If we're gonna make profiles for the actual PLAYER character who is representing us in the main journey, then it should stick faithful to that instead of trying to composite every single possibility. This is the issue making the profiles in general

 

[KLOL506]

What happens when, because its possible to trade a Level 100 Giratina before the 2nd Gym of another game or smthn, becomes a reason to try and scale every Gym Leader or random route trainer to Tier 2-standards. Technically you can Those silly situations shouldnt be applied to the in-verse represntation of the player

There needs to be a lot better scrutiny and in-verse context being applied here as opposed to letting every random game mechanic and possibility get away with making everything scale to everything.

If it's canon, it's canon. We are in no position to override actual developers of the game who dictate how the lore goes. Tough luck, but that's how things roll.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

There's a difference between a game mechanic that's just part of a game snd a game mechanic that gets a several minute long cutscene/conversation bashed over your head in every generation to bludgeon you to death with the fact that its a canon thing that exists. Trading Pokémon is the latter and you can't ignore that because you  think it makes scaling messy when it really doesn't beyond an obviously extreme example that wouldn't even work properly at that point in the game because the damn Pokémon wouldn't even listen to you without the proper badges.

 

[KLOL506]

No, you can also use Optional Equipment in this context. Just like you are given the option to make your own Pokemon team.

Theres little-to-no canon confirmation on who these protags are or the Pokemon use, and thus their kit is highly variable and optional instead of assuming they just own the strongest of every pokemon ever at a time because you can implausibly do that technically.

There is no 'Standard' and their Kit is completely down to interpretation. All we can do is list what those variables are.

This is also why making Protag profiles is a nightmare in itself and should have been discussed LONG before this. They're essentially 'build your own Pokemon character' OCs who are only confirmed held to the game progression. The way we composite them liike whats being proposed invites nothing but inverse scaling

So basically, every RPG character ever. You're not bringing anything new here and I'm not convinced by one single line of your arguments.

 

[KLOL506]

We rate works based on stuff officially released, rather than currently supported stuff, otherwise by the same line of logic you'd end up with stuff like DLC being non-canon for any game as soon it's no longer officially sold, let alone entire works once they go out of print.

Straight up. I also don't have to state why that is a stupid as f-u-c-k decision to take as it would override the established canon that authors set as their vision. What, no longer canon just because it got delisted from the store?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Straight up. I also don't have to state why that is a stupid as f-u-c-k decision to take as it would override the established canon that authors set as their vision. What, no longer canon just because it got delisted from the store?

Agreed.

 

[Jinx666]

We rate works based on stuff officially released, rather than currently supported stuff, otherwise by the same line of logic you'd end up with stuff like DLC being non-canon for any game as soon it's no longer officially sold, let alone entire works once they go out of print.

Not really? DLC is completely fair game, those are typically canonical additions to the actual story, compared to trying to compare that to being able to give an Arceus to a trainer with 1 gym badge

I mean, part of the skepticism shown here is related to the inflated ratings that this approach would imply, if the canon split wasn't debunked here then we'd require feats for every Pokemon per game, rather than just defaulting stats for Pokemon (including legendaries) based on general portrayal across the Pokemon multimedia, which isn't the case, thus requiring the canon split being valid for this kind of point to hold any weight.

This has nothing to do with the tierings. The CRT in itself is asking to deal with how we do protag profiles (if they truly need to exist), but trying to scale them to every unnaturally obtained pokemon they could own is way too much

1: This only applies from LGPE onwards
2: Even then, Home still supports the entire National Dex (notably even still having a National Dex order list for Gen 8+ Pokemon over just leaving them in limbo), showing that there's still intent for continuity with the inclusion of new Pokemon over it being a full reboot of the existent pool of Pokemon and the setting like with Ben 10
3: If we want to play it safe for those we can just limit to what's obtainable in-game without hacking, still leaving transfers and trades where applicable

1. yeah, and thats now the norm. Dexit will be a permanent addition to mainline games fro the forseeable future, so its clear that the writers' intention, if we take game mechanics/development reasonings as literally as this, is that these pokemon are impossible to obtain for that said player. And that doesnt make sense in-verse
2. Thats Pokemon Home. Theres no 'protag' or even feats to be talked about with it honestly, idk why its being talked about
3. If we want to play it safe, we just use what the player can naturally obtain. And then you dont have to make up random stats like saying they scale to thhe Creation Trio when theres nothing in most of the games to imply that.

I mean, this is a common trope in general, if anything it eases indexing for our purposes and I don't see the issue beyond mere skepticism, we're not the originality police to demand that a series has to be more original with each entry or stuff like that, we just index things the way they are.

Adding more and more composited variables doesnt help the indexing, and instead makes the page confusing. The only incentive to be doing this honestly is to make profiles stronger, but otherwise protags should be held to mandatory events with everything else being optional.
Its a profile about the PROTAG player character, not the irl player itself. So in-verse context should apply

 

[Jinx666]

Straight up. I also don't have to state why that is a stupid as f-u-c-k decision to take as it would override the established canon that authors set as their vision. What, no longer canon just because it got delisted from the store?

No ones saying this honestly.

If you're talking about removed content, then yeah, it depends on the why. At the same time, if the NatDex is legally impossible to complete then i dont think its this ironclad reasoning to say why we should give every protag scaling to legendaries they dont fight/use in the context of the game.

 

[Jinx666]

If it's canon, it's canon. We are in no position to override actual developers of the game who dictate how the lore goes. Tough luck, but that's how things roll.

Its not canon though?

The developers dont dictate this whatsoever? The developers themself think Pokemon 'destroying buildings' is an impressive feat and wouldnt at all apply the current stat (doesnt help it mixes in anime, manga etc so its not just down to them.) This is just the nature of the game mechanics that people here take way too literally.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Its not canon though?

The developers dont dictate this whatsoever? This is just the nature of the game mechanics that people here take way too literally.

There's a difference between a game mechanic that's just part of a game snd a game mechanic that gets a several minute long cutscene/conversation bashed over your head in every generation to bludgeon you to death with the fact that its a canon thing that exists. Trading Pokémon is the latter and you can't ignore that because you  think it makes scaling messy when it really doesn't beyond an obviously extreme example that wouldn't even work properly at that point in the game because the damn Pokémon wouldn't even listen to you without the proper badges.

 

[Jinx666]

So basically, every RPG character ever.

No? Pokemon is obviously different contextually. We shouldnt treat every single case of this form of player-insert character the same?

You're not bringing anything new here and I'm not convinced by one single line of your arguments.

Thats...fine? I never made it my goal to convince you about anything here, The thread is about changing how Protag profiles currently are which you haven't commented on, I don't know who you are honestly.

 

[KLOL506]

Its not canon though?

I can't believe this is a serious response. If a game bashes into your head with explicit and verbatim details as to how the mechanic works in-verse including several cutscenes to show for it, that is the literal definition of canon. I'm sorry if you don't find this answer convincing, but that's how our standards roll for EVERY SINGLE VERSE out here.

You are free to change it in a Staff-Only thread but be warned, you will promptly be shown the door.

 

[Jinx666]

Trading Pokemon from other games via extralinking isnt in that same category whatsoever.

The developers dont think of this at all, they dont gaf about the powerscaling applications of it so i dont know why we're acting like this is there will. Its obvious WHY you can trade Pokemon from other games, and its not because the developers are trying to communicate 'Oh yeah so um, this trainer canonically uses Arceus' and whatnot.

Im genuinely so confused what the line of thinking is here

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Trading Pokemon from other games via extralinking isnt in that same category whatsoever.

The developers dont think of this at all, they dont gaf about the powerscaling applications of it so i dont know why we're acting like this is there will. Its obvious WHY you can trade Pokemon from other games, and its not because the developers are trying to communicate 'Oh yeah so um, this trainer canonically uses Arceus' and whatnot.

Im genuinely so confused what the line of thinking is here

What the **** are you talking about? That's not what we said at all.

 

[Jinx666]

I can't believe this is a serious response. If a game bashes into your head with explicit and verbatim details as to how the mechanic works in-verse including several cutscenes to show for it, that is the literal definition of canon. I'm sorry if you don't find this answer convincing, but that's how our standards roll for EVERY SINGLE VERSE out here.

I dont even know what you're talking about here? There is nothing confirmed canon about these protags getting legendaries they cant get in the base game.

The game isnt trying to portray this whatsoever just because it lets you move Pokemon from other games. In fact, it actively discourages you from doing this (the whole 'Pokemon that are too high-level wont listen to you). What other example from another verse is this about?

You are free to change it in a Staff-Only thread but be warned, you will promptly be shown the door.

What???
Why would i do that? This is a verse CRT, nothing to do with needing to restrict to staff?
The OP isnt even about all this.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

We made Masters Ex canon, no? Lo and behold, the protags don't all have copies of the Creation Trio lol

 

[Jinx666]

What the **** are you talking about? That's not what we said at all.

Yeah, dont start swearing and getting aggressive about this please, this isnt that srs.

Idk whats even the basis between all this anymore, but im not denying that 'Trading' or 'Extralinking' isnt a part of the world.
But like, realistically in context, who is 'canonically' transferring the avatar of God itself to give to the player? As opposed to from a game mechanics perspective, its the same dude transferring their pixels from one game to another.

 

[Jinx666]

We made Masters Ex canon, no? Lo and behold, the protags don't have the Creation Trio in it lol

I mean we didn't necessarily as opposed to 'secondary canon'? but this is another example of the roundabout standards of scaling with this verse that completely contradict one another you're right.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I mean we didn't necessarily as opposed to 'secondary canon'?

There's nothing in-canon saying they do have them either, so if my understanding of secondary canon is correct, we'd go with them not having every Pokemon ever.

 

[Jinx666]

There's nothing in-canon saying they do have them either, so if my understanding of secondary canon is correct, we'd go with them not having every Pokemon ever.

Exactly tbf

Theres genuinely nothing "canon" that says the player from like, Gen 5 games has an Arceus. Just because you, as a player, have the choice to use an Arceus by trading a cheated version to another game,just should not mean the protagonist canonically has access to that pokemon.

The box legendary, the regions legendary trio , any other legit static encounter: Fair enough. But not really the Pokemon that the devs didn't even bother to make accessible in the game itself.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

They cant 'potentially' have them in the context of the actual story just because of extralinking to other games. This is for players, but the actual CHARACTER of the protag has no real reason to include using legendaries they arent able to catch in the main game, and using that to justify giving them a large tier. It gets ridiculous to a point

It’s not to “justify” anything, it’s just for the sale of indexing. IMO using trading shouldn’t be ignored for being “an optional thing for players” when it’s an established part of the lore.

A better argument against letting MCs have traded stuff is that since Red doesn’t take advantage of this, no MC should. However the other MCs don’t have anything contradicting it like Red so it’s still 50/50.

Everything can scale to everything with this very same logic. You can make the exact same argument for Tier 2 Route 1 Pokemon (they can technically injure the creation trio) if people take game mechanics so literally, thats why its a pretty dangerous pipeline

Well no because no other character should be scaling evenly to the player anyway, especially involving optional stuff. You’re right that there should be some scrutiny, but the scrutiny should be on how other characters scale to the MCs. Optional content (not just talking trading here, I’m also talking about in-game things like ORAS’ bonus legendaries) shouldn’t affect the scaling of the other characters.

 

[Jinx666]

Trying to index every single implausible possibility that a player-insert character can have through means outside of the actual game in question is kinda insanity tbh. It should stick to whats actually available in the region instead of outward sourcing which will actively affect their tier (and then make the craziest pipeline takes like 'Route 1 Pokemon all scale to creation trio cause Bidoof's hyper fang can directly take out a ton of Gods HP')
Keep it simpler. The best lines of reasoning are the ones that dont allow for its very same logic to be used against them.

Why not? Its technically possible to let the player 'black out', and its possible by game mechanics for one character to hurt the protag as one of these many many possibilities. You're right, its silly, but theres nothing physically blocking this line of reasoning other than 'okay theres a limit!'. People from outside the wiki we 'index for' will chew that apart immediately (likewise VSBW Pokemon's reputation outside of this forum...)
The protags should all scale to what they directly face in the game. Not based on the pokegened arceus little timmy trades to his newest pokemon game as a reason for saying this protag now canonically owns Arceus. This falls flat on its face in context of the verse too.

But nonetheless, this thread was less about scaling and more about how we organise these protag profiles. Because evidently we aren't doing the four we have right.

Even now we dont do this? Like the protags are all different tiers and dont scale unless they've directly come into contact with the Creation Trio (thats fine by the scaling logic of this verse.)

 

[Bobsican]

Not really? DLC is completely fair game, those are typically canonical additions to the actual story, compared to trying to compare that to being able to give an Arceus to a trainer with 1 gym badge

Funny that you say this, a incident indeed happens in BW2 that allows to get the Creation Trio before even the first badge (or trading/transfers) thanks to Dream Radar, so this isn't outside of the expectations of the developers. Add to that several other users agreeing with my previous point and thus I think this should suffice as a debunk.

This has nothing to do with the tierings. The CRT in itself is asking to deal with how we do protag profiles (if they truly need to exist), but trying to scale them to every unnaturally obtained pokemon they could own is way too much

The canon split wasn't just out of tiering stuff, but canonicity in general, which has way more ramifications than just stats, namely the validity of a lot of claims for either side of the spectrum, but given that the canon split is debunked either way this still remains as a non-argument.

1. yeah, and thats now the norm. Dexit will be a permanent addition to mainline games fro the forseeable future, so its clear that the writers' intention, if we take game mechanics/development reasonings as literally as this, is that these pokemon are impossible to obtain for that said player. And that doesnt make sense in-verse

Dexit is not a narrative aspect of the series, but ironically enough a game mechanic, ultimately it's too much work for the developers to support a raising amount of Pokemon per generation, and the plug had to be limited at some point, the leaks show that this has been a concern since Gen 5 but was delayed out of concerns of the exact sort of controversy that ultimately happened when they did do that in Gen 8. Either way non-game media doesn't act like this is the case at all, so this'd be pushing a gameplay limitation as part of the lore, which is hard to justify to say the least.

2. Thats Pokemon Home. Theres no 'protag' or even feats to be talked about with it honestly, idk why its being talked about

Home is still a provided service in-universe by Grand Oak, and given that as said before Brigette bothers introducing it when transfering from Bank to it, it neatly fits into the canon, in fact as far feats go it features Pokedex entries that can't be found elsewhere.

3. If we want to play it safe, we just use what the player can naturally obtain. And then you dont have to make up random stats like saying they scale to thhe Creation Trio when theres nothing in most of the games to imply that.

Eh, the Creation Trio still plays an active role in BDSP, PLA, and to a lesser degree SwSh and SV, the only ones that'd stand out are LGPE (which is quite isolated in the first place either way) and ZA (which can't be exactly indexed right now out of still having incoming DLC, notably featuring Mega Darkrai).

Adding more and more composited variables doesnt help the indexing, and instead makes the page confusing. The only incentive to be doing this honestly is to make profiles stronger, but otherwise protags should be held to mandatory events with everything else being optional.
Its a profile about the PROTAG player character, not the irl player itself. So in-verse context should apply

If formatting is a issue this can just be made a whole explanation page of its own so that other pages can just link to it.

 

[Lou_change]

I have a feeling most cases people are using these profiles they primarily just want be able to use any team of six or so Pokemon you can get in a game and with any TMs, held items, and battle items like potions.