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Sans (Undertale) vs Lyn (Fire Emblem) | (3-7-0) Grace

Ok, one more thing

I understand that Sans is downscaling, but by rules, like when a high 8-C+ with 10 tons AP who has a massive chains is just "upscaling", it can't never even beat a 8-B baseline guy in ap, Sans then is at least 2 tons

Or what is the consesus here? That he is secretly 8-C?
 
I feel like the dura neg is too contextual to take as a broad resistance to Karma. Correct me if I'm wrong, but magic breaking past dura in FE seems more like an indication of how elements get past armor. Sans does hit the Soul, which, while Lyndis does have Soul Hax resistance, so does Frisk, but Frisk was still vulnerable to the effects of KARMA.
In Fire Emblem there is poison magic and Lyndis can resist that, works like Karma if you ask me, could be wrong though
 
I'm too busy to read the thread but what was the conclusion
Sans' KR is fully dura negging because its entire gimmick is to inflict always 1 damage per frame no matter what thanks to it bypassing INV Frames and dealing the exact same damage regardless of the increases to the DEF stats, which would fit the theme of Sans just breaking the laws of the game and being able to bend them to his advantage.

The KR is also accepted as being a poison-like status effect that corrodes both SOUL and Body too.
 
That sounds like it's not applicable to the resistances Fire Emblem characters have to their own magic then imo. Not batting for Sans but I do think y'all are being a little presumptuous and jumping the gun on having Magic resist to Fire Emblem spells be applicable to Sans' attacks
 
I feel like the dura neg is too contextual to take as a broad resistance to Karma. Correct me if I'm wrong, but magic breaking past dura in FE seems more like an indication of how elements get past armor.
That's only half true. Magic in FE negates physical defenses including armor AND hides, which, within the context of the scan, refers to the thick hides of monsters, or in other words, skin. So, it bypasses both armor and skin.

Also, I was referring to the inherent durability ignoring aspect of Sans' attacks, where he will always deal 1 damage KARMA or not. So, Lyn would be taking those hits as normal hits, which she could easily heal off.

Sans does hit the Soul, which, while Lyndis does have Soul Hax resistance, so does Frisk, but Frisk was still vulnerable to the effects of KARMA.
Difference between Frisk and Lyn is that the latter can survive without a soul.

Also, unrelated to the match at hand, but Lyn's "optional equipment" should just be standard equipment tbh, given it's standard equipment for all other sword users, which includes swords that make attacks land directly on the target, like the Light Brand and Runesword. Actually think ima make that CRT rn
 
I mean, Flowey has no SOUL, and Sans defeated him, so his attacks must have had some effect or worked
Yea, because Flowey only resists Monster Magic's Limited Durability Negation (which is still impacted by conventional durability), and not sans' straight up Durability Negation. Lyn resists the latter.
 
Sans' KR is fully dura negging because its entire gimmick is to inflict always 1 damage per frame no matter what thanks to it bypassing INV Frames and dealing the exact same damage regardless of the increases to the DEF stats, which would fit the theme of Sans just breaking the laws of the game and being able to bend them to his advantage.

The KR is also accepted as being a poison-like status effect that corrodes both SOUL and Body too.
Small correction: sans' KR is unrelated to his ability to always inflict 1 damage no matter the opponent's defense, it only has to do with the poison-like effect, which is proven through the flavor-text for KR corresponding to the amount of KR applied to the player's SOUL.

So, yes, KR can affect Lyn, but she resists the other aspect of sans' durability negation, which, frankly, is responsible for making it as effective as it is. So, it's nothing she can't just heal off.
 
Also, unrelated to the match at hand, but Lyn's "optional equipment" should just be standard equipment tbh, given it's standard equipment for all other sword users, which includes swords that make attacks land directly on the target, like the Light Brand and Runesword. Actually think ima make that CRT rn
I added the others as optional equipement because she doesn't start with them on her, you have to give them to her so she doesn't necessarly have them.
 
I started adding the vote in the op tell me if i forgot anyone. I only counted explicit vote that's why i haven't counted Strym for Sans yet.
I haven't counted your vote for now as you voted without any reasoning and before the debate even truly began. Do you keep your vote and why ?
 
I mean, there's still Telekinesis. Even if Lyn can recover from Karma, what's stopping Sans from just being able to ragdoll her and prevent her from being able to recover?
 
I started adding the vote in the op tell me if i forgot anyone. I only counted explicit vote that's why i haven't counted Strym for Sans yet.

I haven't counted your vote for now as you voted without any reasoning and before the debate even truly began. Do you keep your vote and why ?
geez I forgot about cthis

what r args rn?
 
I mean, there's still Telekinesis. Even if Lyn can recover from Karma, what's stopping Sans from just being able to ragdoll her and prevent her from being able to recover?
The fact that he doesn't use it to restrain people, and only uses it offensively in brief instances to slam people. Hell, it doesn't even hurt the target until his final desperation attack.
 
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geez I forgot about cthis

what r args rn?
The majority of the debate so far has been about whether Lyn resist dura neg and if Sans can damage her without it.

For other arguments it's Sans overwhelming Lyn with Tk and danmaku to wittle her down and Lyn either tiring Sans or landing a critical to cut him before he can react.
 
The majority of the debate so far has been about whether Lyn resist dura neg and if Sans can damage her without it.

For other arguments it's Sans overwhelming Lyn with Tk and danmaku to wittle her down and Lyn either tiring Sans or landing a critical to cut him before he can react.
Considering she can live without her soul, has resistance to magic that can be amplified, can read Sans' thoughts, can throw off his aim with afterimages, and has a chance to just blitz Sans who notoriously cannot tank anything, I retain my vote for Lyn.
 
We already went over it in this thread and not this one only.
We fr need a giant ass disclaimer in huge letters on top of Sans' profile: HIS DURABILITY NEGATION IS NOT DEPENDENT ON SOUL. It's getting annoying going over it not only in every thread, but even multiple times in a single thread like here.
Already addressed here above. Magic in Lyn's verse =/= Sans' Dura Neg.
Why is it Analytical Prediction and not Telepathy lmao. Anyways, how does it work? Does she passively read every attack?
TK pretty much hard-counters this.
They are in the same tier, we already talked about it above and concluded there is no one-shot.

Idk man, 3/5 of your arguments are something we discussed and concluded in this thread and even on this page. I'd recommend reading the thing next time. Like, it's just two pages.
 
I'm a JJK fan I can't read
4oc94i.jpg
 
We already went over it in this thread and not this one only.
We fr need a giant ass disclaimer in huge letters on top of Sans' profile: HIS DURABILITY NEGATION IS NOT DEPENDENT ON SOUL. It's getting annoying going over it not only in every thread, but even multiple times in a single thread like here.
I'll address this later in this reply.

Already addressed here above. Magic in Lyn's verse =/= Sans' Dura Neg.
I also addressed this above here. Fire Emblem magic is literally just sans's dura neg in the sense that it ignores all defensive stats. Lyn has resistance to this magic, allowing her to take them as she would any normal physical attack.

So, she would be taking sans' hits as regular hits, which isn't good for sans, given that he scales WAY below his rating, and Lyn scales above her rating, which is above what sans scales way below. I'll go over more details regarding this later in the reply.

To reiterate, even if she doesn't resist the KR status, she resist the other aspect of sans' dura neg (ie, sans' ability to deal 1 damage regardless of the opponents HP making it stack up overtime), which is what makes it so effective in the first place. So, really, in this match, KR is the only way sans can deal lasting damage against Lyn, making KR more or less a glorified poison status, relegating him to draining Lyn's health overtime, rather than it being a nigh-insta win con. Effectively, this is not much different than being hit by a poisoned weapon, which is by no means something Lyn hasn't dealt with before, and not something she can't heal.

(Yes, I'm aware that KR =/= poison, no need to point it out, I'm just saying that effectively, they both have the same effect against Lyn here)

Why is it Analytical Prediction and not Telepathy lmao.
¯\(ツ)/¯ maybe its because the latter would imply that Lyn can telepathically communicate with others, but other than that idk

Anyways, how does it work? Does she passively read every attack?
More or less a form of mind-reading.

TK pretty much hard-counters this.
  1. sans has never used his TK defensively.
  2. Even if he did, how would he even be able to TK a target moving too fast for him to see? There is nothing (that I can remember) that suggests he can do so.
  3. Lyn also creates 4 other copies of herself, so there's a 4/5 chance that sans would target the wrong Lyn regardless.

That's also not to mention the fact that Lyn being able to survive without her soul, but not actually resisting soul manip actually works in her favor here, because if her soul is destroyed prior, it means sans can't even TK her. And unlike his durability negation, his TK does seem dependent on the soul.

They are in the same tier, we already talked about it above and concluded there is no one-shot.
Where exactly? The topic about the AP gap was brought up a few times, but it was never agreed one way or the other. Moreover, you yourself said that the AP gap was significant enough that sans' attacks wouldn't do much:


But anyways, given that:
  1. Sans scales WAY below his rating. Like, the dude has 1 ATK compared to Mettaton's 47 ATK (ie, the dude that actually performed the feat)
  2. Lyn scales above a rating greater than what sans scales WAY below.
  3. Lyn can crit for triple damage.
While I won't go as far as to say that she is GUARANTEED to one-shot sans (even though imo she probably does, given sans piss poor ability to sustain damage, but meh), it really doesn't matter that much, given that she isn't only going to make one attack within the same attack interval. So if the first hit doesn't take him down, the second attack onwards sure would.
 
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This is true HOWEVER he has used his TP defensively before, keeping Frisk locked in place.
Only for his special attack, which he doesn't use until the very end. If it ever gets to that point, it's just forcing an incon, since neither party will do anything to each other.
 
I'll address this later in this reply.


I also addressed this above here. Fire Emblem magic is literally just sans's dura neg in the sense that it ignores all defensive stats. Lyn has resistance to this magic, allowing her to take them as she would any normal physical attack.

So, she would be taking sans' hits as regular hits, which isn't good for sans, given that he scales WAY below his rating, and Lyn scales above her rating, which is above what sans scales way below. I'll go over more details regarding this later in the reply.

To reiterate, even if she doesn't resist the KR status, she resist the other aspect of sans' dura neg (ie, sans' ability to deal 1 damage regardless of the opponents HP making it stack up overtime), which is what makes it so effective in the first place. So, really, in this match, KR is the only way sans can deal lasting damage against Lyn, making KR more or less a glorified poison status, relegating him to draining Lyn's health overtime, rather than it being a nigh-insta win con. Effectively, this is not much different than being hit by a poisoned weapon, which is by no means something Lyn hasn't dealt with before, and not something she can't heal.

(Yes, I'm aware that KR =/= poison, no need to point it out, I'm just saying that effectively, they both have the same effect against Lyn here)


¯\(ツ)/¯ maybe its because the latter would imply that Lyn can telepathically communicate with others, but other than that idk


More or less a form of mind-reading.


  1. sans has never used his TK defensively.
  2. Even if he did, how would he even be able to TK a target moving too fast for him to see? There is nothing (that I can remember) that suggests he can do so.
  3. Lyn also creates 4 other copies of herself, so there's a 4/5 chance that sans would target the wrong Lyn regardless.

That's also not to mention the fact that Lyn being able to survive without her soul, but not actually resisting soul manip actually works in her favor here, because if her soul is destroyed prior, it means sans can't even TK her. And unlike his durability negation, his TK does seem dependent on the soul.


Where exactly? The topic about the AP gap was brought up a few times, but it was never agreed one way or the other. Moreover, you yourself said that the AP gap was significant enough that sans' attacks wouldn't do much:




But anyways, given that:
  1. Sans scales WAY below his rating. Like, the dude has 1 ATK compared to Mettaton's 47 ATK (ie, the dude that actually performed the feat)
  2. Lyn scales above a rating greater than what sans scales WAY below.
  3. Lyn can crit for triple damage.
While I won't go as far as to say that she is GUARANTEED to one-shot sans (even though imo she probably does, given sans piss poor ability to sustain damage, but meh), it really doesn't matter that much, given that she isn't only going to make one attack within the same attack interval. So if the first hit doesn't take him down, the second attack onwards sure would.
Lyn FRA
 
Why are we adding this lol, if Lyn the no name resists durability negation they kinda stomp FOR NOW. If they DON'T resist it then Sans seemingly just kicks their ahh. Its a mismatch
Because she can still be damaged via KR. And, she can technically still take damage from Sans' attacks, they just won't deal nearly as much damage w/o the dura-neg advantage. It's not a stomp, just a decisive victory in Lyn's favor.

And I'd hardly call Lyn of all FE characters a no name, but sure
 
Because she can still be damaged via KR. And, she can technically still take damage from Sans' attacks, they just won't deal nearly as much damage w/o the dura-neg advantage. It's not a stomp, just a decisive victory in Lyn's favor.
If she can ignore the 1 DMG then no Sans would barely hurt her since he is insanely below his rating thats below her scaling. If she can’t ignore the 1 DMG power then Sans just wins ngl.
And I'd hardly call Lyn of all FE characters a no name, but sure
If I dont know them they are no names
 
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