[STAFF INPUT PLEASE] Changing Pokemon 'Protagonist' pages

[Jinx666]

Funny that you say this, a incident indeed happens in BW2 that allows to get the Creation Trio before even the first badge (or trading/transfers) thanks to Dream Radar, so this isn't outside of the expectations of the developers. Add to that several other users agreeing with my previous point and thus I think this should suffice as a debunk.

Well by the roundabout logic used by this verse and the current state its in, then i don't really take that to heart personally. If your argument here is that the Protagonist is Tier 2 before getting the first badge then i'm consciously sound disagreeing with that notion. It tells me everything.

I dont know why we're assuming every rando game decision ever, especially to put event mons like what you're linking to with special circumstances', is the 'expectations of the developer'. They dont gaf about the powerscaling implications, and if they wanted the Gen 4 legends in Pokemon BW2, then they'd put it in the base game. but they didnt. This creates a headache in itself.

The canon split wasn't just out of tiering stuff, but canonicity in general, which has way more ramifications than just stats, namely the validity of a lot of claims for either side of the spectrum, but given that the canon split is debunked either way this still remains as a non-argument.

Yeah and i wasn't talking about that regardless. You brought that up, this thread is about how we treat Protag pages

I already know why the canon split happened, despite the fact the anime and games are very clearly separate continuities, and sadly its impossible to change on this site. So again, i dont wanna talk about it, my proposed changes dont relate to it whatsoever.

Dexit is not a narrative aspect of the series, but ironically enough a game mechanic, ultimately it's too much work for the developers to support a raising amount of Pokemon per generation, and the plug had to be limited at some point, the leaks show that this has been a concern since Gen 5 but was delayed out of concerns of the exact sort of controversy that ultimately happened when they did do that in Gen 8. Either way non-game media doesn't act like this is the case at all, so this'd be pushing a gameplay limitation as part of the lore, which is hard to justify to say the least.

Pokemon Home, the platform that people desperately want to convince is a canon reasoning as to why you can transfer yourselves legendaries actively say you cant trade these pokemon to that save file. Theyre directly not in the game.

So no, for the likes of LGPE onwards, theres 0 possibility to give them pokemon they cant physically get in the game even with your line of reasoning. And then that just completely shatters the narrative cause this is how its gonna be for the forseeable future.

Home is still a provided service in-universe by Grand Oak, and given that as said before Brigette bothers introducing it when transfering from Bank to it, it neatly fits into the canon, in fact as far feats go it features Pokedex entries that can't be found elsewhere.

'neatly fits' is a stretch. Its a glorified transfer system that works for the outsideofverse concept of trading your own pokemon to yourself. Then using it to justify what a canon character to own

At this point, why dont you just make one big 'Protagonist (Pokemon)' page that puts ALL the player inserts to exist into one? They're technically the same people right if we're actively going to use the concept of 'an irl person is playing these games' as an argument to give canon characters a composite of everything.

Eh, the Creation Trio still plays an active role in BDSP, PLA, and to a lesser degree SwSh and SV, the only ones that'd stand out are LGPE (which is quite isolated in the first place either way) and ZA (which can't be exactly indexed right now out of still having incoming DLC, notably featuring Mega Darkrai).

They dont play an active role in the last two just cause theyre obtainable. The others, fair game idc honestly. It just gets ridiculous to a point, especially when the Creation Trio/Arceus are confirmed to not be at their full power when actively used in a Pokeball and required the Red Chain and whatnot.

But this isnt abt the scaling issues

If formatting is a issue this can just be made a whole explanation page of its own so that other pages can just link to it.

The explanation pages of this verse arent even used anyway. Ths verse needs to fix its entire formatting and standards before trying to add more profiles like this imo.

If you genuinely wanna type out every possible pokemon that can be owned for a protag, and try and legtimately put Arceus as an owned pokemon of like, Lyra or smthn then be my guest atp. I just want our Protagonist standards sorted.

 

[Jinx666]

I have a feeling most cases people are using these profiles they primarily just want be able to use any team of six or so Pokemon you can get in a game and with any TMs, held items, and battle items like potions.

Well exactly tbf. They're gonna be mostly glorified OC insert pages if ppl use them for actual threads. Still, they should be allowed to be made if people really wants, they just shouldnt be making them as they currently are.

 

[Jinx666]

Right well aside from the delve into Pokemon canon and whatnot, can we get properly back on topic with the points made in OP.

Any of these 'variables' we are assuming like Nate/Rosa owning an Arceus would still be considered Optional over Standard. Because unfortunately no, its not confirmed canon, and will instead in VS threads be up to whoever makes them.

 

[Zyurtunder13]

Dexit is not a narrative aspect of the series, but ironically enough a game mechanic, ultimately it's too much work for the developers to support a raising amount of Pokemon per generation, and the plug had to be limited at some point, the leaks show that this has been a concern since Gen 5 but was delayed out of concerns of the exact sort of controversy that ultimately happened when they did do that in Gen 8. Either way non-game media doesn't act like this is the case at all, so this'd be pushing a gameplay limitation as part of the lore, which is hard to justify to say the least.

Yeah sorry, but this take is atrocious and ultimately hypocrite in so many levels, I was agreeing with a lot of your points, but this one is simply no, especially when the real point of ignoring the Dexit from the recent games is just to have "BIG NUMBER" in the profiles, and that's pathetic childish.

 

[Bobsican]

Yeah sorry, but this take is atrocious and ultimately hypocrite in so many levels, I was agreeing with a lot of your points, but this one is simply no, especially when the only point to ignore the Dexit from the recent games is just to have "BIG NUMBER" in the profiles, and that's pathetic.

Care to explain? If it's that flawed it'd be trivial for you to do so.

Also please don't apply ad hominem, it makes you look bad ironically.

 

[Jinx666]

Or can we just get back to the OP topics please?

I've kinda realised that if i dont really care/believe in the values people are trying to push for this verse via scaling, and im not gonna be making Protagonist profiles, then it honestly doesn't concern me overall. I'd just like to set the simple standards of how the page should be formatted when it comes to protagonists.

 

[Zyurtunder13]

Care to explain? If it's that flawed it'd be trivial for you to do so.

Basically I was agreeing with the idea of acknowledging all the Pokémon that are available in the Natdex of respective games as canon and valid for the profiles of the MCs, but your idea of ignoring the Dexit situation of the recent games is simply dumb in my opinion, those games have a limited Dex, and ignoring the Dexit problem is just childish and comes across as just you wanting "BIG NUMBER" in those profiles, and trying to pass it as just a "game mechanic" is simply hypocrite of your part.

 

[Bobsican]

Basically I was agreeing with the idea of acknowledging all the Pokémon that are available in the Natdex of respective games as canon and valid for the profiles of the MCs, but your idea of ignoring the Dexit situation of the recent games is simply dumb in my opinion, those games have a limited Dex, and ignoring the Dexit problem is just childish and comes across as just you wanting "BIG NUMBER" in those profiles, and trying to pass it as just a "game mechanic" is simply hypocrite of your part

Meh, I don't particularly care about numbers, in fact this CRT doesn't have tiering as a main priority in the first place. As far the "dexit" era goes all Pokemon (including dexit'd ones) still exist somewhere in-universe, but simply aren't obtainable, I already leaned on the compromise of just limiting dexit-era main characters to just what's obtainable without hacking (aka, what can be obtained by trading or transfering), which lines up with the limitations enforced by Home.

 

[Zyurtunder13]

Meh, I don't particularly care about numbers, in fact this CRT doesn't have tiering as a main priority in the first place. As far the "dexit" era goes all Pokemon (including dexit'd ones) still exist somewhere in-universe, but simply aren't obtainable, I already leaned on the compromise of just limiting dexit-era main characters to just what's obtainable without hacking (aka, what can be obtained by trading or transfering), which lines up with the limitations enforced by Home.

Huh, then I can agree with that, as long as it's just what can actually be obtained or transferred into those games only.

 

[Jinx666]

Well i mean, make your own CRTs regarding that cause even right now the current stats on the profiles dont align with this line of scaling

 

[Bobsican]

Well i mean, make your own CRTs regarding that cause even right now the current stats on the profiles dont align with this line of scaling

Well, every proposal so far demands changes to the formatting either way, so it'd still be pertinent here on that regard.

 

[Jinx666]

Well, every proposal so far demands changes to the formatting either way, so it'd still be pertinent here on that regard.

No this is for Profile format changes in regards to making Protagonist profiles, not about changing their stats to accomodate for them having Arceus. Thats on you

 

[Bobsican]

Okay, but how to address a ND section was a part of the issue, no? We can just leave that section's idea as being fine and focus on the rest of the matter so this goes somewhere, keeping any scaling/implementation for another CRT.

 

[Jinx666]

ND section?

I mean if you're talking abt the list of Pokemon, and you want to add the entire nat dex then put it in a collapsible ig? When this goes through, it'll just be converting the four pages we have into blogs for whomever wants to change them to the standards.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I hard disagree with everything.

Thus far we have four as far as i know: Elio, Calem, Gloria and Rei

We also have Red and Ethan.

A) Protagonist pages including both the Male and Female Protagonists.

Right now, only one of these two characters are being made into a profile, and pretended like they hold a precedence over the other. This is due to Pokemon Masters EX, but this has not been officially decided

• Masters EX is 'secondary canon' at most, and does not hold power over anything mainline. This would include the option of male or female player character
• Masters EX's versions of the characters are actually...the characters, as opposed to player inserts like in the mainline. They make up relations, let the male and female protag coexist in made-up cases, and even split the story lines between the male and female in some cases.
• There is no confirmation that Masters EX is the canon way that mainline events go.

No, it's not due to Masters.

Project Snorlax confirms the protags, Pokemon Generations does the same.

Masters may confirm a couple, but none that these haven't done already.

B) Calling them 'Player (Pokemon insertgamenamehere)' (or something of the like)

Once again this is related to trying to choose one protagonist over the other, when theres no canon. While the characters have official names, we as the player choose our own name and go on our own separate adventure, with many many other variables that we cant possibly call canon unless they are storylocked. As such, we are similar to other customisable JRPG characters and should make them.

...What? Why? Why not just call them "Ethan/Lyra" or "Gloria/Victor" or "Calem/Serena"? We shouldn't add the opposite gender anyway since they'll get their own profile eventually, but we're not going to damn each and every Pokemon protag to the hell that is the "The Player" disambiguation page.

A lot of sections such as Intelligence, Stamina and even the Physical Stats ones are also brought into question. Theres so much gameplay mechanics involved in beating characters (Like bringing a FEAR team to a champion battle and winning, you wouldnt scale those realistically)

This excludes Red obviously, since he has also appeared as an NPC that plays a role in the story.

Why would this matter, you think feats wouldn't count if they're a girl, or a boy? And you would actually, considering they would have come up with the FEAR tactic on their own, to the point of beating a Champion with it.

C) Making Composited information (such as collectable items and Pokemon teams) 'Optional' and sticking to confirmed storybeats for Standard.

This is probably the most debatable aspect, but if we are to make these player inserts, i dont think we should be including long lists of absolutely EVERY item obtainable, or giving them confirmed full complete access to the entire pokedex. Or just generally giving them every optional aspects of the game (especially when Pokemon doesnt have a '100% completion' like other games.)

As such, unless the Pokemon are GIVEN/Forced to be caught to them as part of the story (or other similar scenarios such as catching the box legendary), then their moveset of Pokemon or the items they possess shouldnt be assumed too. The whole game we are essentially playing by the players' choices and our character is a non-speaking insert role that just is sorta...made to win at everything. There are too many variables in Pokemon that trying to make out that the player works a specific way outside of mandatory story beats just ends up looking bloated or OC.

A lot of the info would go under 'Optional Equipment' regardless. If people REALLY wanna include this, it should be in a collapsible textbox so that it isn't making the page look longer than it needs to. Quality > Quantity and User-friendly interface is key.

Why not? Besides that's not how we treat RPG items at all, look at any Final Fantasy profile. We actually give them what they would reasonably have without cheats. We shouldn't punish people for being comprehensive.

Solution

• Change the current Protagonists pages into WIP blog posts until someone is willing to incorporate both player characters into one page, and to any accepted standards.
• Adding these rules to one of the Pokemon pages, such as on the Verse page for future reference

You're not deleting my profiles. Sorry. This is what, your third attempt at getting my protag profiles taken down? It's so obvious what you're trying to do considering how easy of a fix it would be to do even what you're proposing.

 

[Jinx666]

Well to abridge it

A) I dont think 'Project Snorlax' should have any bearing over the mainline whatsoever. This is NOT strong enough to demerit the existence of either gender of protagonist, or dictate anything?

B) We cant call it that cause its a player-insert character. They're canonically Gloria/Victor but the player in themself changes the name and they're based around what the person playing the game is like. They're not really their own characters to profile. I havent seen a profile named similarly to this either. If they're Masters EX versions, that actually give them personality and Pokemon they own, outside of the mainline, then go for it.

C) Its got nothing to do with being a boy or a girl, but the protagonists should have equal bearing instead of trying to take one thats canon over the other. FEAR isnt an actual thing in the Pokemon verse either, Thats literally just a battle tactic players came up with. Its not means to try and scale a Rattata or smthn to a legendary because they can beat it.

D) No ones punishing anyone? and Final Fantasy works differently to Pokemon. We realy cant say every single RPG works the same, and theres nothing in Final Fantasy like 'extralink trading' to compare. One is a creature capture RPG, one is the standard RPG, so their mechanics will require discussion instead of just saying 'oh they work exactly the same', especially when comapred to the Pokemon protagonist, Final Fantasy has set characters that arent just player-insert.

E) It's literally nothing personal. Im making a CRT thread for it like everyone says you should do. The Protagonists dont and shouldnt take precedence over eachother, especially if youre tyring to use a social media campaign like Project Snorlax to dictate Mainline canon.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

No, it's not due to Masters.

Project Snorlax confirms the protags, Pokemon Generations does the same.

Masters may confirm a couple, but none that these haven't done already.

Those chosen protagonists are contradicted by stuff like the Gotcha music video and Pokémon Evolutions.

For Gotcha:

• The video will usually show characters swapping between their gendered counterpart, like Victor switching to Gloria or having Elio, Hau and Gladion swap to Selene and Lillie.
• The moments that do show a single protagonist mostly show ones that contradict Generations, such as having Hilda with Cheren and Bianca instead of Hilbert, or Serena fighting Mewtwo instead of Calem.

For Evolutions:

• The Champion has Victor instead of Gloria unlike Project Snorlax
• The Eclipse has Selene instead of Elio unlike what’s shown on VSBW’s profile (I assume that’s from Masters?)
• The Plan has Hilda instead of Hilbert unlike Generations
• The Rival has Lucas instead of Dawn unlike Project Snorlax
• The Wish has May instead of Brendan unlike Generations
• The Discovery has Elaine instead of Chase unlike (I again assume) Masters

None of these are “confirming” protagonists, they’re mainly just picking and choosing the ones they want to show since it’s usually awkward to have both at the same time (a music video like Gotcha doesn’t have this weakness). The only protagonist that could be argued to be “canon” aside from Red is Ethan, but that’s only because he gets the same special treatment outside the main games that Red does due to originally having no counterpart.

 

[Lou_change]

I think the simplest solution is to simply not mention Pokemon outside of tiering and make a note link to a blog explaining how we treat their Pokemon. That said as for items most of the time we assume that they have all the items they can get by the end of the game for all video game characters for example Mario is treated as having most power ups on hand at all times by us despite evidence suggesting otherwise. You can't often use characters with only early game or mid game arsenals as most profiles assume an endgame state with everything that they can have or at least every item they can get by a certain point into the game.

A lot of sections such as Intelligence, Stamina and even the Physical Stats ones are also brought into question. Theres so much gameplay mechanics involved in beating characters (Like bringing a FEAR team to a champion battle and winning, you wouldnt scale those realistically)

why is this under the name change section also what is bringing the ratings into question.

 

[Jinx666]

I think the simplest solution is to simply not mention Pokemon outside of tiering and make a note link to a blog explaining how we treat their Pokemon. That said as for items most of the time we assume that they have all the items they can get by the end of the game for all video game characters for example Mario is treated as having most power ups on hand at all times by us despite evidence suggesting otherwise. You can't often use characters with only early game or mid game arsenals as most profiles assume an endgame state with everything that they can have or at least every item they can get by a certain point into the game.

Well we can, but then ppl are clammering on about 'indexing' and how they now decide they want to give all access to the NatDex

And then in that regard they'll all pretty much be the same tiering in general, as glorified OCs. Feels they need to do a lot of explaining of the mental gymnatsics required

why is this under the name change section also what is bringing the ratings into question.

Because its hard to call the protags we play as the actual 'Gloria/Victor' for example, since they are literally player inserts that we get to customise in that regards in general. We decide their name, their Pokemon team and as such, they dont really get any in-character 'intelligence' or other feats like that.
If theres no feats you can attribute to them then its relevant why they need to be fully advertised as the 'Player' compared to what the canon name for the characters are.

 

[Lou_change]

Well we can, but then ppl are clammering on about 'indexing' and how they now decide they want to give all access to the NatDex

That is most what the Pokemon profiles are for

And then in that regard they'll all pretty much be the same tiering in general, as glorified OCs. Feels they need to do a lot of explaining of the mental gymnatsics required

Is it because all the legendaries are argued to scale back to the lake and creation trio and since their trained Pokemon are able to fight things on that level their non legendary Pokemon should also scale?

Because its hard to call the protags we play as the actual 'Gloria/Victor' for example, since they are literally player inserts that we get to customise in that regards in general. We decide their name, their Pokemon team and as such, they dont really get any in-character 'intelligence' or other feats like that.
If theres no feats you can attribute to them then its relevant why they need to be fully advertised as the 'Player' compared to what the canon name for the characters are.

At least gifted based on how most games treat them should be fine

 

[Jinx666]

Is it because all the legendaries are argued to scale back to the lake and creation trio and since their trained Pokemon are able to fight things on that level their non legendary Pokemon should also scale?

Eh, i wouldnt know, i just think when it comes to Protagonists, we use the little standardising we can from the mandatory story events and leave everything else optional to a degree. But we're moving that on hopefully since the scaling isnt what the CRT is about.

At least gifted based on how most games treat them should be fine

Well maybe but you'd just have to assume that in Pokemon battling based on how they could quickly overtake the Champion. Still its feats based on actual people playing the game to control those actions, so as long as its explained like that its fine.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Those chosen protagonists are contradicted by stuff like the Gotcha music video and Pokémon Evolutions.

For Gotcha:

• The video will usually show characters swapping between their gendered counterpart, like Victor switching to Gloria or having Elio, Hau and Gladion swap to Selene and Lillie.
• The moments that do show a single protagonist mostly show ones that contradict Generations, such as having Hilda with Cheren and Bianca instead of Hilbert, or Serena fighting Mewtwo instead of Calem.

If both of them are portrayed doing protagonist shet, then neither of them are really hard confirmed as being the protagonist.

For Evolutions:

• The Champion has Victor instead of Gloria unlike Project Snorlax
• The Eclipse has Selene instead of Elio unlike what’s shown on VSBW’s profile (I assume that’s from Masters?)
• The Plan has Hilda instead of Hilbert unlike Generations
• The Rival has Lucas instead of Dawn unlike Project Snorlax
• The Wish has May instead of Brendan unlike Generations
• The Discovery has Elaine instead of Chase unlike (I again assume) Masters

None of these are “confirming” protagonists, they’re mainly just picking and choosing the ones they want to show since it’s usually awkward to have both at the same time (a music video like Gotcha doesn’t have this weakness). The only protagonist that could be argued to be “canon” aside from Red is Ethan, but that’s only because he gets the same special treatment outside the main games that Red does due to originally having no counterpart.

I dunno, I didn't make Elio's profile. Masters did reconfirm Chase being the protagonist, but he's been Partner Pikachu's owner since the beginning.

Evolutions isn't canon. Even ignoring how they seem to almost always have the wrong protagonist (and how many of them are portrayed with their noncanon alternate skin colors), many of their events directly contradict their games.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

If both of them are portrayed doing protagonist shet, then neither of them are really hard confirmed as being the protagonist.

Yes that’s my point, only that applies to every bit of mainline media outside of the mainline games themselves. If stuff like Gotcha, Project Snorlax, Generations, Evolutions and Masters aren’t consistent between each other regarding who’s the protagonist, then there’s no way to truly decide who’s the “canon” one.

Even ignoring how they seem to almost always have the wrong protagonist

Decided by what?

and how many of them are portrayed with their noncanon alternate skin colors

The designs the characters are usually advertised with aren’t the “canon” appearance, just the default. It’s kinda silly to say someone’s playthrough is less canon than someone else’s because their blank slate OC has the wrong gender, skin colour, hair colour, hairstyle, eye colour, or clothes. Plus if we’re arguing the blank slate OCs are actual characters then we should be limiting the Pokémon and items they can use like Jinx was suggesting, which most people are disagreeing with doing.

many of their events directly contradict their games.

The same can be said for Generations. Maxie and Archie both get killed by their legendaries in their episodes, Hilbert shows up to fight White Kyurem, and the MCs aren’t even present in half of the stories that they should be in.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

A) I dont think 'Project Snorlax' should have any bearing over the mainline whatsoever. This is NOT strong enough to demerit the existence of either gender of protagonist, or dictate anything?

Yeah, why's that? And it's a good thing Pokemon Generations supports it anyway, huh?

B) We cant call it that cause its a player-insert character. They're canonically Gloria/Victor but the player in themself changes the name and they're based around what the person playing the game is like. They're not really their own characters to profile. I havent seen a profile named similarly to this either. If they're Masters EX versions, that actually give them personality and Pokemon they own, outside of the mainline, then go for it.

Ok? Tons of protags get their names changed. Robin from Fire Emblem gets his name changed. So do all Miis. We profile them. That's like saying that since the player plays as Master Chief, he's not his own character and he doesn't need a profile, and then making a profile on just the Master Chief of the books and the comics... which honestly isn't far off from how it is anyway.

C) Its got nothing to do with being a boy or a girl, but the protagonists should have equal bearing instead of trying to take one thats canon over the other. FEAR isnt an actual thing in the Pokemon verse either, Thats literally just a battle tactic players came up with. Its not means to try and scale a Rattata or smthn to a legendary because they can beat it.

Ok, why mention Intelligence and Stamina and stuff if both genders can do them? It's absolutely an actual thing considering it can be pulled off ingame and even in Battle Facilities, though it wouldn't necessarily be under the name F.E.A.R. Players also came up with rocket jumping in TF2, grenade stacks in Halo, and LGBT undertones in Deltarune, but they're all things that the player can actually do.

D) No ones punishing anyone? and Final Fantasy works differently to Pokemon. We realy cant say every single RPG works the same, and theres nothing in Final Fantasy like 'extralink trading' to compare. One is a creature capture RPG, one is the standard RPG, so their mechanics will require discussion instead of just saying 'oh they work exactly the same', especially when comapred to the Pokemon protagonist, Final Fantasy has set characters that arent just player-insert.

Damn, I guess because they're even a little different that means you get to ignore my entire comparison, and also any other RPG verse for that matter. Pokemon also has many set characters that aren't player inserts either.

E) It's literally nothing personal. Im making a CRT thread for it like everyone says you should do. The Protagonists dont and shouldnt take precedence over eachother, especially if youre tyring to use a social media campaign like Project Snorlax to dictate Mainline canon.

Great, just because you're making a CRT doesn't mean you should recommend that we delete the profiles and relegate them into blog posts until further notice (which is eerily similar to my CRT on pointless Digimon profiles). They absolutely should, given that it tells you who the protagonist is multiple times. You already failed to noncanonize Masters, don't try to noncanonize shit like Project Snorlax artwork too.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Yes that’s my point, only that applies to every bit of mainline media outside of the mainline games themselves. If stuff like Gotcha, Project Snorlax, Generations, Evolutions and Masters aren’t consistent between each other regarding who’s the protagonist, then there’s no way to truly decide who’s the “canon” one.

Didn't we just say that GOTCHA doesn't tell you? And if literally the rest of Evolutions is wrong, why would it be right about its protagonists?

Decided by what?

...The rest of the verse?

The designs the characters are usually advertised with aren’t the “canon” appearance, just the default. It’s kinda silly to say someone’s playthrough is less canon than someone else’s because their blank slate OC has the wrong gender, skin colour, hair colour, hairstyle, eye colour, or clothes. Plus if we’re arguing the blank slate OCs are actual characters then we should be limiting the Pokémon and items they can use like Jinx was suggesting, which most people are disagreeing with doing.

Evolutions isn't a playthrough. And it would be, since we know for sure what the characters look like in canon.

The same can be said for Generations. Maxie and Archie both get killed by their legendaries in their episodes, Hilbert shows up to fight White Kyurem, and the MCs aren’t even present in half of the stories that they should be in.

We don't know if they actually do. It's a creative choice to show the characterizations of people other than the protags, that's a whole different thing than suddenly touting these gremlins as the main character.

 

[Jinx666]

X

Yh im limiting my responses to your stuff, most of this is bait

But Project Snorlax is just a bunch of social media images that have 0 bearing on mainline canonicity. Just because an image portrays one of the protagonists from this does not dictate the entire canon version that mainline games went, they're literally just artworks of Snorlax? And like the other person just proved to you, both male and female protags show up in official art and media so idk why this is the kicker.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Yh im limiting my responses to your stuff, most of this is bait

Holy shit he can't even debunk any of my points

But Project Snorlax is just a bunch of social media images that have 0 bearing on mainline canonicity. Just because an image portrays one of the protagonists from this does not dictate the entire canon version that mainline games went, they're literally just artworks of Snorlax? And like the other person just proved to you, both male and female protags show up in official art and media so idk why this is the kicker.

Oh, you're right, totally just a bunch of pictures online. Certainly doesn't describe this entire site. What it actually is is a homage of every major battle involving a Snorlax in the mainline games. The keyword here being mainline. You're still deliberately ignoring Pokemon Generations, btw. Of course they would have official art, the opposite gendered character still exists in the verse, just not as the protag.


I'm not letting you drop my previous points, by the way. You'll have to actually disprove them before you can start getting anyone to agree, if they even would.

 

[Jinx666]

Crazy how i dont have to do that, actually Sean. You aren't of authority here and im not falling for your derailing.

People already agree with most of the CRT points, we just derailed a bit when it came to the scaling which this CRT isnt trying to alter.

Either way, protagonist stand-in characters should include both gendered protags, instead of trying to pretend only one of them exists and should treat them as the player-insert characters they are instead (since its all controlled and decided by the player). If you wanna make separate profiles for the protags by name, then use the Masters EX version and feats please.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Crazy how i dont have to do that, actually Sean. You aren't of authority here and im not falling for your derailing.

You sure do. Deliberately skipping over points like you just did doesn't look good at all to readers or to the mods. It sure made me disagree with this CRT even more than I already did when it started.

People already agree with most of the CRT points, we just derailed a bit when it came to the scaling which this CRT isnt trying to alter.

I'm so glad I know how to read so I know that isn't true.

Either way, protagonist stand-in characters should include both gendered protags, instead of trying to pretend only one of them exists and should treat them as the player-insert characters they are instead. If you wanna make separate profiles for the protags by name, then use the Masters EX version and feats.

Why? I just debunked needing to do that entirely. And why are you still trying to gaslight people into separating mainline with Masters even after I got Masters canon and usable again?

 

[Jinx666]

Whatever you say Sean.

 

[Jinx666]

Bump


So lookinng over, people agree with A and B but they think everything should be standard equipment? I mean if you want but the character would still only really have 6 Pokemon at a time so its not like they'd access everything for the sake of Vs battles.

 

[Lou_change]

how fast can they freely access Pokemon in their pc in the games?

 

[Jinx666]

how fast can they freely access Pokemon in their pc in the games?

I mean they cant actually switch between Pokemon in the PC mid-battle so doubt it matters.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Bro thought people agreed

how fast can they freely access Pokemon in their pc in the games?

That's a pre-SwSh issue, nowadays they can just pull Pokemon from their PC remotely. Chase actually carries his PC with him.

 

[Bobsican]

Leaving to change Pokemon mid-battle actually happens once in the anime, although in a vs thread this wouldn't be an issue per SBA as obviously there's no Pokemon Centers in New York.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Leaving to change Pokemon mid-battle actually happens once in the anime, although in a vs thread this wouldn't be an issue per SBA as obviously there's no Pokemon Centers in New York.

And is one of the worst moments in the whole verse

 

[Random-Helper323]

Has anything been concluded yet? I would suggest at bare minimum we factor event Pokemon who are encountered in scripted events. For Red we literally have his teams from his NPC appearances which actually lines up with that (it's composed of event Pokemon from Pokemon Yellow).

For the Johto character we have Sudowoodo (roadblock), Electrode (have to face three to finish Mahogony Town's Rocket lair), Red Gyarados (event, iconic), Snorlax (roadblock), Dragonite (received in Dragon's Den), Eevee (recieved from Bill, likely evolved to either Espeon or Umbreon), Suicune (event), Togetic (given its egg), Lugia/Ho-Oh (event, remakes only). Probably a few others, more in the remakes.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Has anything been concluded yet? I would suggest at bare minimum we factor event Pokemon who are encountered in scripted events. For Red we literally have his teams from his NPC appearances which actually lines up with that (it's composed of event Pokemon from Pokemon Yellow).

For the Johto character we have Sudowoodo, Electrode, Red Gyarados, Snorlax, Dragonite (received in Dragon's Den), Eevee, Suicune, Togetic, Lugia/Ho-Oh (remakes only). Probably a few others, more in the remakes.

Since it's their goal to complete the Pokedex, and we don't know to what level he'd have trained each of them, I'd say we just go over the Pokemon they have in Masters and then just say they have many other Pokemon.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Since it's their goal to complete the Pokedex, and we don't know to what level he'd have trained each of them, I'd say we just go over the Pokemon they have in Masters and then just say they have many other Pokemon.

That does give us something else to work with. RPG characters in general tend to receive all possible equipment and items, although it depends on how custom they can be. We give the Dragonborn all the artifacts but not every player made enchanted weapon, for example. We wouldn't assume the Dragonborn was packing a Stalhrim sword with the Chaos and Frost enchantments stacked with perks for max effect, for example.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

That does give us something else to work with. RPG characters in general tend to receive all possible equipment and items, although it depends on how custom they can be. We give the Dragonborn all the artifacts but not every player made enchanted weapon, for example. We wouldn't assume the Dragonborn was packing a Stalhrim sword with the Chaos and Frost enchantments stacked with perks for max effect, for example.

We can assume he is capable of making such, provided it's not made with glitches, unofficial sources or exploits- for example in VS, with prep time Elio could make a Super Trained Hyper Trained Roto Boosted Ultra Necrozma because he knows how.