Darkstalkers Top Tier Revision, Let’s talk about Galaxy level (plus some other things)

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Yeah this took a while for me to actually make. Galaxy level for Darkstalkers has issues, I’ll list off the issues with it.

1. The Galaxy level feat currently used is based on Pyron’s orbital path, which has issues and relates more to his gravity powers that allow him to have planets (and he plans to have a sun later) in his collection
2. We don’t know if Pyron himself can make himself as large as the orbital path which is 400,000 light years (I think there is an argument to be had that he can, but I’ll talk about that later on)
3. The feat can’t even be calculated as an AP feat if I recall

To my memory there are more issues with it, but those are the main issues, and thus, Galaxy level needs to go (maybe). I’ll propose the tiers.

Spoiler: New Tier proposals or something

Scale the Top Tiers to Multi-Solar System Level

This is a pretty straight forward one. Just scale all the Top Tiers, such as Morrigan, Jedah, Lilith, Belial, Demitri after absorbing Pyron, and “True Form” Pyron (I’ll talk about this in a bit) massively above Ozom, who’s soul was used to create the Majigen and that power is connected to his soul (it is already on his profile), thus be Starry Sky level.

Personally, I think this works, but I feel like it low balls the Top Tiers. But there is a second option I will elaborate on right now.

Scale the Top Tiers to… Multi-Galaxy level?

I know what you might be thinking. What material is there that would make 3-B even make sense? Well, Morrigan Aensland actually. To summarize it as best I can, Morrigan was born with power so strong and uncontrollable that it "could" destroy her and Makai through Self Destruction. Makai being a dimension often compared to the human world (the universe) pretty consistently. Belial even considered her power so dangerous, he had to split her power (soul) into 1/3 of what it was. There is no evidence to suggest that the destruction of Makai would've happened overtime or in multiple blasts, nothing like that. Not to mention it wouldn't make sense for Morrigan to destroy Makai if she self destructs...

(I do have the AP sorted for this btw, so I'll send it and see what everyone thinks after we get the tiers all sorted out)

EDIT: Never mind I'll put it here instead

Morrigan Aensland (after fusing with Lilith): 1.883E+92 Joules (1.883E+48 Foe, or 1.88333333333 QuettaexaFoe)

1/3 Morrigan, Jedah Dohma, Lilith, Demitri after absorbing Pyron: 9.417E+91 Joules (9.417E+47 Foe, or 941.666666667 QuettapetaFoe)

Demitri before Absorbing Pyron and Pyron probably get like 470.833333333 QuettapetaFoe (if we merge the keys for Pyron)

Belial probably upscales somwhere, or is Baseline 3-A, not sure entirely but it would make sense given his S+ Class rank, while Morrigan was only S Class despite all that power.

There is one more option amongst these two though.

Just leave Galaxy level (or the Galactic stuff in general)

And here we are. At the top I mentioned there was an argument to be had that Pyron could scale to the size his orbital path. To talk about that, we need to talk about his Night Warriors (Vampire Hunter) ending, where he adds the Earth to his collection, dwarfing them.

In this ending, we see not just Earth orbiting his finger, but two other planets doing the same. Why is this important? In the Graphic Files, it is said whenever Pyron would find an intriguing specimen (planet and or sun), he would force it onto an orbital path that surrounds himself, that orbital path is said to span over 400,000 light years. And in his Night Warriors ending, we see two other planets orbiting his fingers. There's no explanation as to how those planets even got there to begin with, so these have to be two other planets Pyron added to his orbital path at some unknown point before Earth, plus the orbital path in the Graphic Files is the only one that's ever mentioned, so there's no extra one orbital path Pyron has or anything like that.

With this in mind, you CAN argue Pyron should scale to the size of his orbital path easily if he wanted to, at least in my mind. Even then I can see why one wouldn’t buy it.

Aside from those, there's more here I want to talk about. Feel free to discuss what works best for the tiers. Should they be likely? Possibly? Outright replace the current tiers? Who knows.

The end of "True Form" Pyron:

Okay, now this one is hard to explain. But the entire True Form thing with Pyron makes no sense in the way it’s handled here. Not only is there nothing to imply Pyron gets weaker from changing his appearance to be more humanoid, but it does not work with how power is treated in the verse. With power and the soul being very much connected, and given what Pyron is, just energy (or a shapeless spiritual identity), then where would that energy even be going to if he somehow made himself weaker?

There's a lot you could say on this, but the fact is, "True Form" Pyron isn't a thing in the verse, at least in the way we portray it, as there isn't anything to suggest there's a power difference in the first place and it would kinda break how the power system in Darkstalkers works imo

Ozom deceiving Lord Raptor just like he did to Jedah:

Yeah, this is a bonus, and this is going to be a simple one. Lord Raptor's power up he gets in his Night Warriors ending shouldn't be a key. In the Vampire Savior Fanbook (like from the last CRT?), it's said that only Raptor's appearance is powered up, with the powered up stuff being Ozom's deception. Keeping in mind this was the same character who tricked Jedah Dohma himself, yeah this answer makes sense. Thus I think the key should go, until we have more info on what it's capable of.

And that is all I have for now.

---

Agree: Ser_Hakim_Dayne (With Morrigan being 3-B. Also agrees with removing True Form Pyron key and Ultimate Power key for Lord Raptor), BlackDarkness679 (With the Top Tiers and anyone relative to base Demitri and Pyron being 3-B, as well as the key removals but is fine with 4-A, possibly 3-B as a middle ground), Milly_Rocking_Bandit (Agrees with True Form Pyron key removal and Ultimate Power Raptor removal), Tanin_iver (Agrees with the key removals and 4-A being the new tier, with 3-B being a possibly), Kisaragi_Megumi (Agrees with key removals), Apex_Predator_GX (Agrees with key removals), Reiner04 (Agrees with anyone relative to base Demitri and Pyron and above scaling to 3-B, as well as key removals), SamanPatou (Agrees with merging Pyron's keys together as well as Lord Raptor's Ultimate Power key removal), Random-Helper323 (Agrees with the key changes)

Disagree: SamanPatou (Disagrees with 3-B would rather have a different definitive tier, such as wherever Pyron may end up)

Neutral:

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

In my opinion, I think "At least 4-A" for the top tier and "At least 4-A, 3-B/3-A with Self-Destruction" for Morrigan (3-A for her 3/3 or Full Power key).

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I agree, by the way.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

In my opinion, I think "At least 4-A" for the top tier and "At least 4-A, 3-B/3-A with Self-Destruction" for Morrigan (3-A for her 3/3 or Full Power key).

Ehhh, I don’t know about going that route to be exact. Because with the way the soul and power are connected in Darkstalkers, she would need to have the power needed to destroy Makai to begin with. Also Morrigan in the series doesn’t reclaim the last third of her power, thus remains at 2/3 at most so she wouldn’t get the key.

I agree, by the way.

With the True Form Pyron and Lord Raptor stuff too?

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Ehhh, I don’t know about going that route to be exact. Because with the way the soul and power are connected in Darkstalkers, she would need to have the power needed to destroy Makai to begin with.

I'm confused, what's wrong with what I proposed?

Also Morrigan in the series doesn’t reclaim the the last third of her power, thus remains at 2/3 at most so she wouldn’t get the key.

That's true, but she was canonically at full power before Belial divided her power, so she could at least have that key. And even if that weren't the case, it would still be a hypothetical form of the character (like Oni with Akuma in Street Fighter), and I think that's also a valid reason to give her a key.

With the True Form Pyron and Lord Raptor stuff too?

Yes

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

I'm confused, what's wrong with what I proposed?

I think maybe the way I worded it was probably weird, given the “through Self Destruction” part (I could’ve spaced it out more I suppose).

Basically, Morrigan’s power is so uncontrollable at that point (her having that at birth, so she’s a baby) that it would cause her to self destruct as well.

From the Lilith graphic file which I linked in the OP:

When Morrigan was born, her father took a portion of her dark energies and sealed them away. He was concerned that she would be unable to control the overflowing amounts of dark energies that were present within her, and that this lack of control would eventually lead to her self destruction.

The self destruction is pretty much because of raw power, it’s not something she can just, do I guess.

That's true, but she was canonically at full power before Belial divided her power, so she could at least have that key. And even if that weren't the case, it would still be a hypothetical form of the character (like Oni with Akuma in Street Fighter), and I think that's also a valid reason to give her a key.

I will see what others may think on this. But I don’t think we should do it here, as mentioned above, Morrigan had that power at birth, and she never got it back. Not to mention if we did, the key probably wouldn’t be combat applicable from my understanding.

Yes

Okay, I’ll add you to the Agree section.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Agree.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Agree.

Which parts specifically? (especially for the AP)

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I think maybe the way I worded it was probably weird, given the “through Self Destruction” part (I could’ve spaced it out more I suppose).

Basically, Morrigan’s power is so uncontrollable at that point (her having that at birth, so she’s a baby) that it would cause her to self destruct as well.

From the Lilith graphic file which I linked in the OP:
The self destruction is pretty much because of raw power, it’s not something she can just, do I guess.

Ah yes, I see what you mean. Yeah, I think she should be 3-B physically, not just a 4-A. But do the other S-Class scales to her?

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Ah yes, I see what you mean. Yeah, I think she should be 3-B physically, not just a 4-A. But do the other S-Class scales to her?

I’d say so yes.

Lilith is 1/3 of Morrigan’s soul so she would scale to 1/3 Morrigan easily, same with Jedah because he’s kept up with her. Belial is already way stronger than Jedah so he does as well (arguably he’s above everyone given his rank as an S+ Class, but that could be discussed here a bit more I think). Demitri got enough of a power boost from Pyron that he was confident enough in challenging Belial again and was even preparing to fight Morrigan before he and his castle were pulled into Majigen so he does too.

Demitri seized this opportunity to further gain strength and fought against Pyron and consumed the alien life form. He was confident that he was strong enough to challenge and defeat the ruler of Makai, Belial.

I’m not sure about Pyron himself and Demitri prior to absorbing Pyron, but they’d probably downscale by a bit.

Also I should’ve mentioned, given this is 1/3 of a Universal feat, they (from what I understand) would scale stupidly high into 3-B

Also I’ll update your agreement

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I’m not sure about Pyron himself and Demitri prior to absorbing Pyron, but they’d probably downscale by a bit.

I think Pyron and Base Demitri should remain 4-C.

From what I've read and understand of the lore about Demitri, it would seem that:

• Pyron-Absorbed Demitri = Class S (3-B)
• Demitri = Class A (4-C)
• Weakened Demitri = Class B+ (Low 7-B)

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

I think Pyron and Base Demitri should remain 4-C.

From what I've read and understand of the lore about Demitri, it would seem that:

• Pyron-Absorbed Demitri = Class S (3-B)
• Demitri = Class A (4-C)
• Weakened Demitri = Class B+ (Low 7-B)

the 4-C stuff (the Pyron crushing stars thing I'm guessing) is only from the American release of Vampire Hunter though (Night Warriors: Darkstalkers' Revenge). (Also this is more of a me thing, but jumping from 4-C to 3-B, or even 4-A from absorbing someone that is 4-C is weird to me)

I get the logic though don't get me wrong.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

the 4-C stuff (the Pyron crushing stars thing I'm guessing) is only from the American release Vampire Hunter though.

What does the Japanese version say?

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

What does the Japanese version say?

Nothing like that, the statement ONLY exists in the American version, it's not even remotely a thing in the Japanese version (yes this is the Darkstalkers wiki, but I've played the version in Japanese and it says pretty similar stuff to what's shown there)

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I think Pyron and Base Demitri should remain 4-C.

From what I've read and understand of the lore about Demitri, it would seem that:

• Pyron-Absorbed Demitri = Class S (3-B)
• Demitri = Class A (4-C)
• Weakened Demitri = Class B+ (Low 7-B)

That doesnt make sense at all

Is Demitri with Pyron power matches Morrigan and had confidence to take on Belial also, Demitri and Pyron scale to 1/2 of what current Demitri does, aka lower value into 3-B

You cant claim that two 4-C characters together equal a 3-B in power, Lilith is 1/3 of Morrigan after all the splitting where she is 1/3 herself, after getting her back she is 2/3 of her previous power and 3/3 Morrigan is universal

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Nothing like that, the statement ONLY exists in the American version, it's not even remotely a thing in the Japanese version (yes this is the Darkstalkers wiki, but I've played the version in Japanese and it says pretty similar stuff to what's shown there)

So a downgrade to 5-B?

(Also this is more of a me thing, but jumping from 4-C to 3-B, or even 4-A from absorbing someone that is 4-C is weird to me)

Indeed, but we'd have to see that in another CRT I think

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

So a downgrade to 5-B?

I think we should only do that if we keep Pyron's Mortal Form and True Form keys (I've seen giant Pyron calculated at 4-B before, but I am unsure how valid that is)

Indeed, but we'd have to see that in another CRT I think

I think it'd be good to discuss here, because the removal of the true form Pyron key would probably allow for other scaling, but that's just me.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

That doesnt make sense at all

Chill

You cant claim that two 4-C characters together equal a 3-B in power

Maybe, let's see what others think.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Also Capcom 30th anniversary bio on Pyron says his size too iirc, i sent that in discord too way back if you remember

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Also Capcom 30th anniversary bio on Pyron says his size too iirc, i sent that in discord too way back if you remember

This? I did think about adding it, I just wasn't sure if it was valid as it isn't a primary source, not to mention there is some weirdness with other character bio's from the same book, it makes it feel more like a composite.

I guess I can see how they came to the conclusion on his size being 400,000 light years (given what I tried to argue in keeping the Galactic stuff) but I don't know...

EDIT: Never mind, the bio says 400 light years, not 400,000, lmao I can't read sometimes.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

This? I did think about adding it, I just wasn't sure if it was valid as it isn't a primary source

Its an encyclopedia for Capcom characters, its not a crossover guide or anything like that, it should be viable

not to mention there is some weirdness with other character bio's from the same book, it makes it feel more like a composite.

For Morrigan it just mentions she is popular even outside her home series dor crossovers, thats it, as for the other thing i remember you brought up in discord it likely reffered to one of her sheet animations rather from somewhere else

I guess I can see how they came to the conclusion on his size being 400,000 light years (given what I tried to argue in keeping the Galactic stuff) but I don't know...

The scaling from Morrigan 3/3 power should be viable, especially given how its not a far fetched thing to do

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Its an encyclopedia for Capcom characters, its not a crossover guide or anything like that, it should be viable

For Morrigan it just mentions she is popular even outside her home series dor crossovers, thats it, as for the other thing i remember you brought up in discord it likely reffered to one of her sheet animations rather from somewhere else

It mentions that her bats can form a “laser cannon” which isn’t in the Darkstalkers series (at least in the games), it has made appearances in Marvel VS Capcom and stuff like that, just not in Darkstalkers.

The scaling from Morrigan 3/3 power should be viable, especially given how its not a far fetched thing to do

AP wise, yeah from downscaling it. I’m talking about like lifting strength and stuff like that (if we’re going to have Pyron at one key, we should talk about that) stuff that doesn’t affect AP

I’ll talk about that and some other stuff more a little later on though.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

It mentions that her bats can form a “laser cannon” which isn’t in the Darkstalkers series (at least in the games), it has made appearances in Marvel VS Capcom and stuff like that, just not in Darkstalkers.

We went over that in discord it also can refer to one of her animations from the Darkstalkers games similar to a cannon and all, even then its just a minor thing, it doesnt affect her that much, to me it seems extreme to exclude everything for just a bit told somewhere that mentions something off for a character even then

AP wise, yeah from downscaling it. I’m talking about like lifting strength and stuff like that (if we’re going to have Pyron at one key, we should talk about that) stuff that doesn’t affect AP

LS can be split too like AP, only thing it cant most likely is speed, cuz the site is picky about these, aka you need a claim that speed is affected too, either directly saying speed or overall all is affected

Kinda like how goku kaioken boosts all stats and therefore forms above it would in turn also be going by the same thing

I’ll talk about that and some other stuff more a little more later on though.

Is it about powers and the like? Or other stuff included too, i know the bigger ratings you wanna look up for further evidence before proposal

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

We went over that in discord it also can refer to one of her animations from the Darkstalkers games similar to a cannon and all, even then its just a minor thing, it doesnt affect her that much, to me it seems extreme to exclude everything for just a bit told somewhere that mentions something off for a character even then

I’ll see what others think, but still, wasn’t sure about including it given it’s not a main source like stuff such as the Complete Works. But then again, I don’t think CAPCOM would’ve allowed it either if it was false given they advertised it too, but eh.

LS can be split too like AP, only thing it cant most likely is speed, cuz the site is picky about these, aka you need a claim that speed is affected too, either directly saying speed or overall all is affected

Kinda like how goku kaioken boosts all stats and therefore forms above it would in turn also be going by the same thing

No, I mean like, what LS Pyron gets (say Class Y or something) the other Top Tiers would get it too, as far as I know (and is stated and stuff basically) given Pyron’s power wouldn’t be lowering. Speed technically isn’t changing when Pyron manipulates his size so yeah I don’t think we can get like, MFTL+ or something.

Is it about powers and the like? Or other stuff included too, i know the bigger ratings you wanna look up for further evidence before proposal

I’m not gonna mention the bigger ratings here, that’s something I’ll probably have to dig a lot for, and the current evidence ain’t enough for that.

Regardless, I’m more so saying we should discuss what we should do about other statistics depending on if Pyron’s True Form and Mortal Form keys get merged into one thing.

EDIT: Also screw it. I’ll put my scaling for 3-B in the OP (it is for the most part, pretty much the same as the Galaxy level scaling)

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Bump

 

[BlackDarkness679]

You asked staff to give input? Also i agree on 3-B and those keys removal if i wasnt clear my stance beforehand

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

You asked staff to give input? Also i agree on 3-B and those keys removal if i wasnt clear my stance beforehand

Added you. Also, I’ll do that right now.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

bump

 

[Tanin_iver]

EDIT: Never mind, the bio says 400 light years, not 400,000, lmao I can't read sometimes

Probably a typo, they must have missed a K somewhere.
Anyways, I agree with the Key removals but not sure about the AP stuff. I will ponder a bit and see if I can have a consensus.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I'll wait for more debate about the AP, but ATM I agree with majority of the proposal of this revision beside the AP

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Bump

 

[BlackDarkness679]

You tagged staff for this?

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

You tagged staff for this?

I did yeah do that, yes.

Also I guess this would be something to talk about. But I might just take out Base Demitri and Pyron from the 3-B (or 4-A, which ever) scaling. I just feel less comfortable doing that the more I think about it, and it kinda just disregards the ranking system. Given Ozom, an A+ Class (who is 4-A no matter what, then again the true size of the Majigen is a big question mark so who knows) should reasonably be stronger than any A Class like Demitri.

Could probably just say Demitri got an unquantifiable amp or something to match the other S Class Darkstalkers, idk.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I dont see why they should be taken out of that, it makes no sense for lesser characters to have such a huge power increase together to match a class S

Also Class A and A+ have no reason to be such huge gap in power, compared to like one between Class B to Class A to Class S etc

Also Demitri was no match for Class S before Pyron, then his power made it possible, if it takes 2 characters in the range of A class to match a Class S, it makes sense that class A is half the power of Class S, Class A+ being already 4-A further justifies Class A Darkstalkers are in the tier 4 range

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

snip

It’s said that Ozom’s abilities aren’t even comparable to the three high nobles (which would include Jedah), so I don’t exactly know about the A Class Darkstalkers being half the power of an S Class.

I guess you could argue Ozom is 3-B as well if Base Demitri and Pyron are, and given there’s no official stated size for Majigen, it could be bigger than what’s shown? He’d just be above Base Demitri and Pyron by an unquantifiable amount though.

Idk I’ll wait more to talk about that and see what works out.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

It’s said that Ozom’s abilities aren’t even comparable to the three high nobles (which would include Jedah), so I don’t exactly know about the A Class Darkstalkers being half the power of an S Class.

Neither is Pyron or Demitri before ansorbing him, yet the two powers combined compare to Morrigan and other S class, which means class A is half of Class S

Power differences can be portrayed to be big even when the difference may be small, SSJ2 Gohan as a kid has a x2 difference to Perfect Cell, treated as one sided

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Bump

 

[BlackDarkness679]

So i want to comment something, I didnt take too much in consideration how 1/3 and 2/3 Morrigan for a 3/3 Morrigan (3-A) scales characters very high into 3-B, let alone Pyron and Demitri even with halved power from 1/3 Morrigan

So the whole 4-A deal as well as somehow confusing 3-C and 3-B, my bad on that

In short, 3-B for those relevant to Pyron, Demitri, Morrigan, along those included too is a from me

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Bump?

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Ask the same staff again or new ones to give their input, its been a month now since this was made with no votes