[STAFF INPUT PLEASE] Changing Pokemon 'Protagonist' pages

[Jinx666]

Hello

Okay so, I want to get this over with, and i want to do this with as minimal bickering as possible, but I dont think the way we are accepting Pokemon Protagonist profiles are right. (This is not targeted either, this is a valid concern. Need to point that out)

Thus far we have five as far as i know: Elio, Calem, Gloria, Ethan and Rei

To get to the point, i think these profiles should be changed in the following ways

A) Protagonist pages including both the Male and Female Protagonists.

Right now, only one of these two characters are being made into a profile, and pretended like they hold a precedence over the other. This is due to Pokemon Masters EX, but this has not been officially decided

• Masters EX is 'secondary canon' at most, and does not hold power over anything mainline. This would include the option of male or female player character
• Masters EX's versions of the characters are actually...the characters, as opposed to player inserts like in the mainline. They make up relations, let the male and female protag coexist in made-up cases, and even split the story lines between the male and female in some cases.
• There is no confirmation that Masters EX is the canon way that mainline events go.

As such, if protagonist profiles should be made, they should be strictly limited to storylocked information only covered in the mainline with minor support if necessary.

If profiles want to be made of these separate characters, then a Masters EX variant should be made since that game separates these two characters, but otherwise theres nothing discerning them for mainline. You use whatever the characters have stated in Masters EX themself to add to their profile, but you dont hold them to everything that can be done in mainline games

B) Calling them 'Player (Pokemon insertgamenamehere)' (or something of the like)

Once again this is related to trying to choose one protagonist over the other, when theres no canon. While the characters have official names, we as the player choose our own name and go on our own separate adventure, with many many other variables that we cant possibly call canon unless they are storylocked. As such, we are similar to other customisable JRPG characters and should make them.

A lot of sections such as Intelligence, Stamina and even the Physical Stats ones are also brought into question. Theres so much gameplay mechanics involved in beating characters (Like bringing a FEAR team to a champion battle and winning, you wouldnt scale those realistically)

This excludes Red obviously, since he has also appeared as an NPC that plays a role in the story.

C) Making Composited information (such as collectable items and Pokemon teams) 'Optional' and sticking to confirmed storybeats for Standard.

This is probably the most debatable aspect, but if we are to make these player inserts, i dont think we should be including long lists of absolutely EVERY item obtainable, or giving them confirmed full complete access to the entire pokedex. Or just generally giving them every optional aspects of the game (especially when Pokemon doesnt have a '100% completion' like other games.)

As such, unless the Pokemon are GIVEN/Forced to be caught to them as part of the story (or other similar scenarios such as catching the box legendary), then their moveset of Pokemon or the items they possess shouldnt be assumed too. The whole game we are essentially playing by the players' choices and our character is a non-speaking insert role that just is sorta...made to win at everything. There are too many variables in Pokemon that trying to make out that the player works a specific way outside of mandatory story beats just ends up looking bloated or OC.

A lot of the info would go under 'Optional Equipment' regardless. If people REALLY wanna include this, it should be in a collapsible textbox so that it isn't making the page look longer than it needs to. Quality > Quantity and User-friendly interface is key.

Solution

• Change the current Protagonists pages into WIP blog posts until someone is willing to incorporate both player characters into one page, and to any accepted standards.
• Adding these rules to one of the Pokemon pages, such as on the Verse page for future reference

This OP can be updated for any developments or to elaborate on any questions one might ask.

 

[Jinx666]

I rushed this a bit, but I think its important to discuss this now.

Sorry in advance if this goes to shit, I cant really ignore anyones concerns if they want to address them. Feel free to Unwatch

 

[Bobsican]

I'm fine with the page renames and splits, but for accessibility there should be a top template linking to related pages (and probably disambiguation pages too as needed), given that they'd still be notable alternate counterparts, as well as to clarify the stance on the topic and to ease accessibility.

The general policy with game characters is to grant them as much as they can access without deviating from intended paths (most commonly backtracking when it'd not make sense, or holding invalid combinations of things), which shouldn't matter here as the pages are indexing the post-game versions of the characters, I do think that the formatting could be improved as you're saying, however.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Yeah, this part about event Pokemon and given Pokemon has precedent. Red's team in Gen 2 consists of Charizard, Blastoise, Venusaur (all first forms are given to you in Yellow), Snorlax (event Pokemon; the game's famous roadblock), Espeon (Eevee is given in Gen 1, in the apartment building at Celadon) and Pikachu (Yellow's starter).

 

[Jinx666]

I'm fine with the page renames and splits, but for accessibility there should be a top template linking to related pages (and probably disambiguation pages too as needed), given that they'd still be notable alternate counterparts, as well as to clarify the stance on the topic and to ease accessibility.

That can be easily done if those profiles get made, yeah. There are pages that can have two disambiguation templates if there are profiles that put two characters in one (like Cloak and Dagger)

The general policy with game characters is to grant them as much as they can access without deviating from intended paths (most commonly backtracking when it'd not make sense, or holding invalid combinations of things), which shouldn't matter here as the pages are indexing the post-game versions of the characters, I do think that the formatting could be improved as you're saying, however.

Well we don't really composite on the wiki either. And self-insert characters like this can fringe upon OCs if someone just decides to insert their playthrough on a verse discussion for example

Thats why I dont mind putting it as Optional, however given they are player inserts that depend heavily on someones real conscious choice, then that brings into question on what the 'canon' teams of these characters are. And trying to list ALL the variables a Pokemon protag can have will be a chore (and will require better User interface than what we have now)

I sincerely doubt that each character in an actual gameplay sense can have boxes of legendaries for free just because someone can trade them in, and then somehow every other character who you can engage in a battle with (and they can technically hurt you via gameplay mechanics) means this isnt really realistic in canon practice.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I do note that optional legendaries are often not part of the team, once again returning to Red in Gen 2 and Gen 4, who is lacking the three legendary birds and Mewtwo who can be caught in Gen 1 (Mewtwo is literally the final boss), and notably in the remakes those legendaries are still available to catch.

 

[Jinx666]

Yeah, though id regard for Red's profile that we just take his NPC appearances since he becomes a literal character at that point, and not a player-controlled insert his model was in the first games.
Though if there is external evidence of them catching all 151 pokemon like there is Red, it would need evidence and such

For protagonists that dont have that privilege however (as well as rivals who are gender-interchangeable such as Calem/Serena or Ethan/Lyra), then we should stick to the safest canon formula. If people really wanna use them for Vs matchups, then they should decide what their teams are within that thread (by boundaries such as needing 1 starter Pokemon maybe?)

 

[Bobsican]

Thats why I dont mind putting it as Optional, however given they are player inserts that depend heavily on someones real conscious choice, then that brings into question on what the 'canon' teams of these characters are. And trying to list ALL the variables a Pokemon protag can have will be a chore (and will require better User interface than what we have now)

As in basically every legal combination of Pokemon and sets? Or what can be obtained without trading / transfers basically?

I sincerely doubt that each character in an actual gameplay sense can have boxes of legendaries for free just because someone can trade them in, and then somehow every other character who you can engage in a battle with (and they can technically hurt you via gameplay mechanics) means this isnt really realistic in canon practice.

At the same time completing the National Dex is part of the encouraged completion of the games, with several species being exclusive to past generations, some even for the regional dex even (for example, Tangrowth can't be obtained in DPPt without transfering a Tangela from Gen 3). Just dividing this to a separate key would be a good compromise if anything.

 

[Jinx666]

As in basically every legal combination of Pokemon and sets? Or what can be obtained without trading / transfers basically?

Well thats what we can discuss but we can maybe list all the Pokemon they could naturally obtain (with links to profiles). We wouldnt include every pokemon adn all their possible movesets, that'd be ludicrous

I think maybe think of it like Ben 10? We merely link to all the Pokemon they 'could' use and external abilities go into the profile.
I think we should only stick to the Region dex and not the Nat Dex either (or at leasts whats obtainable in the wild)

At the same time completing the National Dex is part of the encouraged completion of the games, with several species being exclusive to past generations, some even for the regional dex even (for example, Tangrowth can't be obtained in DPPt without transfering a Tangela from Gen 3). Just dividing this to a separate key would be a good compromise if anything.

I dont see why we have to limit the pages based on GF's bad game design and pokedex pool.
Its not like what Pokemon they use matters towards their tiering since they'd still scale to their strongest legendaries by base game (i dont personally agree with the scaling but this is a formatting CRT).

If they can't complete the NatDex without trading and using other players as a game mechanic then it shouldnt rly be considered for base. This shouldn't be in the profile either, and feels more like an optional rule for Versus threads

 

[Bobsican]

Well thats what we can discuss but we can maybe list all the Pokemon they could naturally obtain (with links to profiles). We wouldnt include every pokemon adn all their possible movesets, that'd be ludicrous

I think maybe think of it like Ben 10? We merely link to all the Pokemon they 'could' use and external abilities go into the profile.
I think we should only stick to the Region dex and not the Nat Dex either (or at leasts whats obtainable in the wild)

For a default key of sorts that'd be fine, I do think that the ND stuff should be featured for reasons I'll get into soon.

I dont see why we have to limit the pages based on GF's bad game design and pokedex pool.
Its not like what Pokemon they use matters towards their tiering since they'd still scale to their strongest legendaries by base game (i dont personally agree with the scaling but this is a formatting CRT).

If they can't complete the NatDex without trading and using other players as a game mechanic then it shouldnt rly be considered for base. This shouldn't be in the profile either, and feels more like an optional rule for Versus threads

Well, it's still a deliberate design choice, and transfers have been implemented with a bit of plot to tie them into the story over some sort of save-game bonuses other games would do, directly even citing their original trainer and a ton of other things, in fact, there's some exclusive bonuses such as certain ribbons being only obtainable this way, most notably the Artist Ribbon comes to mind.

Additionally, trading is one of the core aspects of the series, even being a requirement to complete a given regional dex every generation; several species that form part of a given regional dex are always version-exclusive (thus demanding trading) per game version, and of course let's not ignore that several Pokemon only evolve when traded (which is required for dex completion of any sort given that each member of an evolutionary line is indexed separately in them as you may know), or this being tied into the lore, so deviating from this portrayal would be going against the general intent of the franchise, making this more of an exception than the standard overall.

 

[Jinx666]

Well looking further, Platinum does have Tangela available in base game in Safari. I dont think we need to take it so srs, especially when BDSP retconned this for DP too.

I dont think we should be using extremely niche info like the 'Artist Ribbon' (Named ribbons are irrelevant to the powerscaling). For games as stacked as Pokemon games then theres always gonna be something unaccounted for, so we shouldnt let stuff like this hold a dominion. We should primarily focus on whats actually in the base game, and use whatever version helps for convenience atp. Such as, theres no need to make Lucas/Dawn for Diamond and Pearl, just use Platinum variants. Or merge the three into one profile and explain the differences.

Yeah, trading is a thing, and its fine to give them trade evolutions but stuff from NatDex feels more like its just the game mechanics and confirming that other players exist that do the exact same adventure as you (which doesnt work in canon.) This is all the stuff that kinda needs to be ignored when considering the canon iteration of the character (as opposed to player choices), or just accounted for by saying 'they have them' if need be. It's also canon that trade evolutions can also be wild encounters in the actual world of Pokemon, so its not like they're impossible to get in context of the lore without trading. Tbh, route pools (pokemon availability) in themself are game mechanics at the core.
I dont think we need to bother putting NatDex either because it detracts from the differences between the protagonists. Whats the point making someone like Nate/Hilda have everything Dawn/Lucas have just because you can technically trade their entire Natdex and more? They should be more representative of the region.

Version exclusives shouldnt matter for the most part really, this is the part where we should baseline and composite for the sake of trying to fit business decisions into powerscaling. Zangoose and Seviper for example coexist in the canon pokemon region despite being version exlcusives). Unless it changes the story, we should have a separate section outlining the differences that versus threads elaborate on.
As much as these exist in the games, i think we're focusing too much on taking their game-mechanic aspects too seriously. These things, and others like Pokemon Home, merely exist for actual player to get pokemon from their games and the such. In actual canon, its not really relevant and shouldnt mean much

 

[Bobsican]

Well looking further, Platinum does have Tangela available in base game in Safari. I dont think we need to take it so srs, especially when BDSP retconned this for DP too.

I dont think we should be using extremely niche info like the 'Artist Ribbon' (Named ribbons are irrelevant to the powerscaling). For games as stacked as Pokemon games then theres always gonna be something unaccounted for, so we shouldnt let stuff like this hold a dominion. We should primarily focus on whats actually in the base game, and use whatever version helps for convenience atp. Such as, theres no need to make Lucas/Dawn for Diamond and Pearl, just use Platinum variants. Or merge the three into one profile and explain the differences.

They can be useful for powerscaling out of scaling implications, more specifically Champion Ribbons as well as that one obtained after defeating Red in HGSS, this'd still be quite limited, but it'd still matter, especially given every single ribbon also got a title to complement the description of the Pokemon in SV, as noted on that Bulbapedia page, further showing awareness and intent on this retrocompatibility.

Stuff that's not accounted for generally would break in-game behavior, like anything involving MissingNo, ACE junk in Gen 1-4, or Bad Eggs, this is nowhere close to that and is clearly stuff that has been supported down to the start of the series (thank Bank adding transfer compatibility from Gen 1-2 to 7 onwards). Given that (core game) DP and Platinum player characters are mostly the same for indexing purposes here I do think they could be one profile with separate keys as needed.

Yeah, trading is a thing, and its fine to give them trade evolutions but stuff from NatDex feels more like its just the game mechanics and confirming that other players exist that do the exact same adventure as you (which doesnt work in canon.) This is all the stuff that kinda needs to be ignored when considering the canon iteration of the character (as opposed to player choices), or just accounted for by saying 'they have them' if need be. It's also canon that trade evolutions can also be wild encounters in the actual world of Pokemon, so its not like they're impossible to get in context of the lore without trading. Tbh, route pools (pokemon availability) in themself are game mechanics at the core.
I dont think we need to bother putting NatDex either because it detracts from the differences between the protagonists. Whats the point making someone like Nate/Hilda have everything Dawn/Lucas have just because you can technically trade their entire Natdex and more? They should be more representative of the region.

It does work in canon, the series often alludes to alternate realities, down to this being the post-game plot of ORAS, USUM and SV, let alone other media like the anime touching on this and also being part of the reason the series has a large tier 2 cosmology, to think otherwise would require a whole CRT of its own to say the least given the ramifications.

As for your example Nate/Hilda would still have the large amount of things introduced in Gen 5, which besides the introduction of more species than Gen 1, they'd most notably have the Gems, which can't be normally obtained outside Gen 5 bar the Normal one, permanent rain/sun without having to use Groudon/Kyogre would also be notable if the nerf done to weather since Gen 6 is considered a feature of the Gen 6 timeline onwards than a retcon.

Version exclusives shouldnt matter for the most part really, this is the part where we should baseline and composite for the sake of trying to fit business decisions into powerscaling. Zangoose and Seviper for example coexist in the canon pokemon region despite being version exlcusives). Unless it changes the story, we should have a separate section outlining the differences that versus threads elaborate on.
As much as these exist in the games, i think we're focusing too much on taking their game-mechanic aspects too seriously. These things, and others like Pokemon Home, merely exist for actual player to get pokemon from their games and the such. In actual canon, its not really relevant and shouldnt mean much

Home ties in with Bank, Brigette will bother introducing Home when transfers to send Pokemon from one to the other is made, and given that she's a character that also appears outside the games, it's clear that this is meant to tie this into the setting over just being game mechanics.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

A) Protagonist pages including both the Male and Female Protagonists.

Right now, only one of these two characters are being made into a profile, and pretended like they hold a precedence over the other.

I can agree with that.

This is due to Pokemon Masters EX, but this has not been officially decided

• Masters EX is 'secondary canon' at most, and does not hold power over anything mainline. This would include the option of male or female player character
• Masters EX's versions of the characters are actually...the characters, as opposed to player inserts like in the mainline. They make up relations, let the male and female protag coexist in made-up cases, and even split the story lines between the male and female in some cases.
• There is no confirmation that Masters EX is the canon way that mainline events go.

As such, if protagonist profiles should be made, they should be strictly limited to storylocked information only covered in the mainline with minor support if necessary.

If profiles want to be made of these separate characters, then a Masters EX variant should be made since that game separates these two characters, but otherwise theres nothing discerning them for mainline. You use whatever the characters have stated in Masters EX themself to add to their profile, but you dont hold them to everything that can be done in mainline games

I think Masters could be keys, but alternate pages works too.

B) Calling them 'Player (Pokemon insertgamenamehere)' (or something of the like)

Once again this is related to trying to choose one protagonist over the other, when theres no canon. While the characters have official names, we as the player choose our own name and go on our own separate adventure,

I personally think we should call them by their official names. You can rename all versions of Link up until Breath of the Wild after all, but he's called "Link" on all of his pages.

with many many other variables that we cant possibly call canon unless they are storylocked. As such, we are similar to other customisable JRPG characters and should make them.

A lot of sections such as Intelligence, Stamina and even the Physical Stats ones are also brought into question. Theres so much gameplay mechanics involved in beating characters (Like bringing a FEAR team to a champion battle and winning, you wouldnt scale those realistically)

I don't really have an opinion on stats myself, right now.

This excludes Red obviously, since he has also appeared as an NPC that plays a role in the story.

Lots of player characters are involved in the story, look at Gen 2 (Heart Gold and Soul Silver specifically) and Gen 3 where the other gender player character is your main rival for large chunks of the game (and they go by their official names).

C) Making Composited information (such as collectable items and Pokemon teams) 'Optional' and sticking to confirmed storybeats for Standard.

This is probably the most debatable aspect, but if we are to make these player inserts, i dont think we should be including long lists of absolutely EVERY item obtainable, or giving them confirmed full complete access to the entire pokedex. Or just generally giving them every optional aspects of the game (especially when Pokemon doesnt have a '100% completion' like other games.)

Pokemon does have a 100% completion (at least in terms of the Pokedex) since you get a special certificate (or something like that, I can't remember exactly) from Game Freak (the in-universe Game Freak) for completing the Pokedex. There are other things too, like Trainer cards, that give in-universe rewards for 100% completion of other things.

As such, unless the Pokemon are GIVEN/Forced to be caught to them as part of the story (or other similar scenarios such as catching the box legendary), then their moveset of Pokemon or the items they possess shouldnt be assumed too. The whole game we are essentially playing by the players' choices and our character is a non-speaking insert role that just is sorta...made to win at everything. There are too many variables in Pokemon that trying to make out that the player works a specific way outside of mandatory story beats just ends up looking bloated or OC.

Isn't that why we tend to give player insert characters everything they can have on their profiles? We do that for a lot of other RPGs, and I don't see why Pokemon would be an exception.

A lot of the info would go under 'Optional Equipment' regardless. If people REALLY wanna include this, it should be in a collapsible textbox so that it isn't making the page look longer than it needs to. Quality > Quantity and User-friendly interface is key.

Collapsable text boxes and/or scroll bars would be a good idea.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I personally think we should call them by their official names. You can rename all versions of Link up until Breath of the Wild after all, but he's called "Link" on all of his pages.

Lots of player characters are involved in the story, look at Gen 2 (Heart Gold and Soul Silver specifically) and Gen 3 where the other gender player character is your main rival for large chunks of the game (and they go by their official names).

Problem is they all have two names each, which one should be at the top of the page?

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Problem is they all have two names each, which one should be at the top of the page?

It could be both. Something "Red/Leaf (Pokemon games)," or something like that, could work, especially if redirects are made for both names.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

It could be both. Something "Red/Leaf (Pokemon games)," or something like that, could work, especially if redirects are made for both names.

Definitely could. But have to also remember that those same names are also the rivals' in Gen3 and Gen6, whereas calling them Player avoids this problem all together.

 

[Sparkive]

In that case, the best thing would be to put the official name in the profile summaries, and make it so that if you type their names in the search bar, it redirects to the player's profile and the rival in question.

 

[Random-Helper323]

We could start with event Pokemon and search for any signs of which starter they picked. Later games literally feature several event legendaries, so this isn't a harsh rule.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Agreed except the thing about limiting the stuff they get. I think we should give them everything they can obtain in-game, rather than only use forced Pokemon. Literally every other RPG verse on the site assumes the player character has everything available to them. This will require a lot of work, yes, but that's just part of it. We either work hard and get full/accurate profiles, or we live with an incomplete one, or none at all.

But I don't see why we'd, say, not give Gloria an Obstagoon as optional equipment. Cloud gets all of his optional summons. Ness gets all his optional items. I don't think Pokemon should be an exception.

 

[Jinx666]

Okay so juts woke up and a lot of replies so im just gonna respond with an overview

I think Masters could be keys, but alternate pages works too.

The difference here is that Masters EX protagonists are separate characters, compared to them being interchangeable in the mainline.
You can actually make Victor and Gloria pages separate if theyre masters ex incarnations, but you shouldnt with mainline

I personally think we should call them by their official names. You can rename all versions of Link up until Breath of the Wild after all, but he's called "Link" on all of his pages.

Well yeah but thats cause Link is link, meanwhile the pokemon player character is effectively an insert that even you can decide the name on. It depends on which playthrough, and othee characters like this are just called 'The Player'. Im open to different names and calling them Victor/Gloria in the secions but we should differentiate if people genuienly want to composite

Lots of player characters are involved in the story, look at Gen 2 (Heart Gold and Soul Silver specifically) and Gen 3 where the other gender player character is your main rival for large chunks of the game (and they go by their official names).

Yeah but not all of them. Its case-by-case so we therefore need to find a consistent system

Isn't that why we tend to give player insert characters everything they can have on their profiles? We do that for a lot of other RPGs, and I don't see why Pokemon would be an exception.

Because of the sheer number of variables, Pokemon teams, options they can use etc. You can also just link to any Pokemon profiles the wiki already has, and state to make the terms in Versus Threads for what their team of 6 will be.

They can be useful for powerscaling out of scaling implications, more specifically Champion Ribbons as well as that one obtained after defeating Red in HGSS, this'd still be quite limited, but it'd still matter, especially given every single ribbon also got a title to complement the description of the Pokemon in SV, as noted on that Bulbapedia page, further showing awareness and intent on this retrocompatibility.

Well sure but we shouldnt hinge the entire page for that. Im afraid there will just have to be information like that absent from the page itself, these are very minor details. Ribbons also go to the Pokemon dont they? Not the trainer

It does work in canon, the series often alludes to alternate realities, down to this being the post-game plot of ORAS, USUM and SV, let alone other media like the anime touching on this and also being part of the reason the series has a large tier 2 cosmology, to think otherwise would require a whole CRT of its own to say the least given the ramifications.

The alternate versions in this case would just be the separate game versions, and this wiki doesnt really seem to accept the Mega Timeline.

I dont think random public trading is directly 'connecting to the multiverse' for example, their intentin is for actual player PvP mechanics as opposed to being actual plot points. So i'm not really sure we need to use this as potential for including every NatDex mon you can possibly obtain tbh. Maybe a sidenote but it should primarily focus on the regions dex

Home ties in with Bank, Brigette will bother introducing Home when transfers to send Pokemon from one to the other is made, and given that she's a character that also appears outside the games, it's clear that this is meant to tie this into the setting over just being game mechanics.

Well Home ties with Bank by being its successor sure, but i dont think we should rly be seriously using this for powerscaling when its essentially just a way for PvP to happen, a.k.a stuff that happens outside of the actual lore.
Like you cant give someone a feat of 'beating a team of 6 Arceus' or smthn cause they did it over PvP or owning very custom pokemon. It borders on the territory of guesswork, and even then, we dont know the skill usage or utility of those Pokemon.

Its a thing that exists, but it feels like mental gymnastics for the sake of already adding more and more to a convoluted guesswork page that relies on a player character. Everyones playthrough is just different and we should only really stick to the canon events/version exclusive storybeats

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Agree with this.

I think for the profile names, you could go “Player (name of game)” for the MCs and “Pokémon Trainer (name of game)” for any gender-based rivals and friends. The profiles themselves can then list the canon names for the characters.

For how to quantify Pokémon teams, I think doing it like Ben 10 profiles where you list Pokémon they can potentially have is a decent idea.

 

[Thunderman101]

hi

 

[Bobsican]

Because of the sheer number of variables, Pokemon teams, options they can use etc. You can also just link to any Pokemon profiles the wiki already has, and state to make the terms in Versus Threads for what their team of 6 will be.

I'd agree with this, to simplify any usage in matches.

Well sure but we shouldnt hinge the entire page for that. Im afraid there will just have to be information like that absent from the page itself, these are very minor details. Ribbons also go to the Pokemon dont they? Not the trainer

Yeah, that much is correct, but the point of bringing them up had more to do with the general intent in the series for carrying over stuff from past games.

The alternate versions in this case would just be the separate game versions, and this wiki doesnt really seem to accept the Mega Timeline.

Given that part of the top tier scaling currently involves scaling Megas to Z-Crystals, it seems to be accepted as part of the scaling right now, unless you have some recent approved CRT to claim otherwise.

I dont think random public trading is directly 'connecting to the multiverse' for example, their intentin is for actual player PvP mechanics as opposed to being actual plot points. So i'm not really sure we need to use this as potential for including every NatDex mon you can possibly obtain tbh. Maybe a sidenote but it should primarily focus on the regions dex

Per the whole before-mentioned Entralink stuff, which also appears outside the games and is a key location in Unova, clearly this is meant to be a part of the setting, this is even enforced with how the description for Pokemon transfered from past generations claiming that they traveled across time and space to reach their new trainer. I do think the regional dex can be its own key, ND stuff can just be another one, as long as ND stuff is in the pages I have no major issue as then there'd be representation for the general intent of the series.

Well Home ties with Bank by being its successor sure, but i dont think we should rly be seriously using this for powerscaling when its essentially just a way for PvP to happen, a.k.a stuff that happens outside of the actual lore.
Like you cant give someone a feat of 'beating a team of 6 Arceus' or smthn cause they did it over PvP or owning very custom pokemon. It borders on the territory of guesswork, and even then, we dont know the skill usage or utility of those Pokemon.

As noted in Bulbapedia, Bank is stated to exist in-universe, so it isn't that much of an stretch, other cross-generational transfer methods also have some flavor text to tie them into the setting over just being a 4th wall breaking save data bonus screen, case in point the Pal Park and Poke Transfer Lab, with the latter even having appearances outside the games as noted in the page.

I'd think that the scaling should be a topic for its own CRT, given that whether anyone scales to tier 2 is quite a hot topic as you may recall, but either way it'd take no further than just looking at the official competitive scene, notably most of the time boxart legendaries and mythicals are banned, but there's still the occasional format that allows them to some degree, showing awareness and intent for their usage in some way.

Its a thing that exists, but it feels like mental gymnastics for the sake of already adding more and more to a convoluted guesswork page that relies on a player character. Everyones playthrough is just different and we should only really stick to the canon events/version exclusive storybeats

Yeah, but at the same time excluding this stuff entirely wouldn't represent the overall display of the characters, if we're going to push for them being self-inserts then they may as well get the full potential showcased, especially as this is also done for other RPGs in the wiki to say the least, I'd think that plenty of proof has been given on this at this point.

 

[Jinx666]

Yeah, that much is correct, but the point of bringing them up had more to do with the general intent in the series for carrying over stuff from past games.

Well yeah its fair to say the games are within the same continuity, but it feels more like we're needing to fit and justify a lore reason for the games merely having...accessibility features to the players' other content from other games. Which is entirely up to the player and whatever they cant access in base games

At the same time, im unlikely to ever make a protag profile so i dont fundamentally mind, will just feel a bit excessive to composite a NatDex

Given that part of the top tier scaling currently involves scaling Megas to Z-Crystals, it seems to be accepted as part of the scaling right now, unless you have some recent approved CRT to claim otherwise.

Idk the actual stance, i just remember in the general discussion thread people saying its a 'fan theory' so it isnt accepted or smthn. I personally think its obvious, but i've not got big knowledge on hand abt it

Per the whole before-mentioned Entralink stuff, which also appears outside the games and is a key location in Unova, clearly this is meant to be a part of the setting, this is even enforced with how the description for Pokemon transfered from past generations claiming that they traveled across time and space to reach their new trainer. I do think the regional dex can be its own key, ND stuff can just be another one, as long as ND stuff is in the pages I have no major issue as then there'd be representation for the general intent of the series.

As noted in Bulbapedia, Bank is stated to exist in-universe, so it isn't that much of an stretch, other cross-generational transfer methods also have some flavor text to tie them into the setting over just being a 4th wall breaking save data bonus screen, case in point the Pal Park and Poke Transfer Lab, with the latter even having appearances outside the games as noted in the page.

I mean yeah it deff exists as a thing, it just feels more like...a reason for game-mechanic accessibility to pokemon from other games as opposed to saying that the protag from Unova has access to an Arceus via NatDex. I think it should mainly stick to the dex and other accessible pokemon (in a way that doesnt make the page a scrollfest)

I'd think that the scaling should be a topic for its own CRT, given that whether anyone scales to tier 2 is quite a hot topic as you may recall, but either way it'd take no further than just looking at the official competitive scene, notably most of the time boxart legendaries and mythicals are banned, but there's still the occasional format that allows them to some degree, showing awareness and intent for their usage in some way.

I'm not too sure we need to be looking at official competitive scenes and formats for scaling

Yeah, but at the same time excluding this stuff entirely wouldn't represent the overall display of the characters, if we're going to push for them being self-inserts then they may as well get the full potential showcased, especially as this is also done for other RPGs in the wiki to say the least, I'd think that plenty of proof has been given on this at this point.

Well given they're player inserts, theres not much physical display of them as characters, its sorta just a build-your-own-character kind of deal. We cant attest to their characters like pages are doing now, but we dont need to composite all the Pokemon/other stuff they can get through Extralink trading and whatnot, since other than those locations existing, its just a facility for player convenience in accessing their old Pokemon

 

[Zyurtunder13]

Jinx666 I agree with a lot of your proposition except the idea of restricting the NatDex of their respective games, that sounds awful

 

[Jinx666]

Jinx666 I agree with a lot of your proposition except the idea of restricting the NatDex of their respective games, that sounds awful

Why is it so awful?

If you give a protag the entire access to the natdex, then they get all of the legendaries up to that point just cause theyre technically playable in the game, however theres no confirming storybeats or events tied to it

If we're making multiple then they should probably be locked to the accessible pool in the game

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Isn't trading between games being canon part of the verse's cosmology?

 

[Random-Helper323]

Isn't trading between games being canon part of the verse's cosmology?

I do remember specific conversations that you can't avoid about the time capsules and other such means to trade between games.

 

[Jinx666]

Yeah, 'Trading' is obviously canon as a concept and im not saying it isnt.

However making the big assumption that the protags have access to ALL the prior pokemon you cant get in the base game based on NatDex is farfetch'd. Thats bringing in way too many variables for a mechanic only in the game because its user-friendly (Before Dexit started at least)
Like giving Nate/Rosa the ability to use an Arceus or other member of the Creation Trio for example?

Stuff that involves WifiTrading/PvP aspects of the game just shouldnt really be considered when comparing the actual base game and its information. The time and space travel comment can confirm it is 'possible' and supports multiverse but they also added that cause theres too many games to keep track of now.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

No, we're not restricting their arsenals for the sake of it just being a lot of work. That's utterly stupid.

 

[Jinx666]

No, we're not restricting their arsenals for the sake of it just being a lot of work. That's utterly stupid.

Didn't say that? Even though obviously, if YOU want to type out every single potential Pokemon they can own even from Extralink trading then be my guest

Its just not really their 'arsenal' if its just Wifi things that wouldnt make sense for them to have if its not available in the base game. Theres no confirmed storybeat that proves they managed to obtain all these Pokemon, including legends/mythicals from trading.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Didn't say that? Even though obviously, if YOU want to type out every single potential Pokemon they can own even from Extralink trading then be my guest

Its just not really their 'arsenal' if its just Wifi things that wouldnt make sense regardless.

If its in the game then that's all that matters. We don't do this for any other RPGs and we're not doing it now.

 

[Jinx666]

If its in the game then that's all that matters. We don't do this for any other RPGs and we're not doing it now.

Context matters actually. and Pokemon is its own form of 'RPG' that works differently to other examples so it requires different rules.

Scrutiny should definitely be applied instead of trying to upscale for the sake of making them look stronger.

 

[Bobsican]

I mean, we have another wiki for that kind of stuff (more specifically we could just say like "all previous + the new Pokemon featured in BW1, etc"), and given that ultimately we'd do the Ben 10 approach of just using other existent species pages over listing everything per profile, this shouldn't be much of an issue.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Context matters actually. and Pokemon is its own form of 'RPG' that works differently to other examples.

Scrutiny should definitely be applied instead of trying to upscale for the sake of making them look stronger.

It's not for the sake of making them look stronger, its for not being hypocrites and deliberately nerfing them just because you don't like them all having a lot of the same shit on them.

 

[Jinx666]

Okay but thats literally still trying to imply the character canonically can have access to all these mons, even legendaries/mythicals, that in lore they shouldnt have if theyr're not catchable in the game. Theres nothing saying they 100% completed their own pokedex, let alone their dex.

You'd also be forced to scale EVERY character post gen 4 to Tier 2 just for the sake of having access to the Creation Trio. Theres implications behind it. The protagonists would also then just kind of be clones of eachother, except they progressively get stronger because they have 'everything other trainers before them had and more'

 

[Jinx666]

It's not for the sake of making them look stronger, its for not being hypocrites and deliberately nerfing them just because you don't like them all having a lot of the same shit on them.

Theres nothing hypocritical about this? Its nothing to do with me not 'liking them' either, where is this coming from????

There are genuine issues and things to discuss when it comes to making protagonist profiles.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Okay but thats literally still trying to imply the character canonically can have access to all these mons, even legendaries/mythicals, that in lore they shouldnt have if theyr're not catchable in the game. Theres nothing saying they 100% completed their own pokedex, let alone their dex.

You'd also be forced to scale EVERY character post gen 4 to Tier 2 just for the sake of having access to the Creation Trio. Theres implications behind it. The protagonists would also then just kind of be clones of eachother, except they progressively get stronger because they have 'everything other trainers before them had and more'

Okay, so? That's kind of just how it has to be then, especially since almost every time other gen legendaries get involved is usually post-game shit anyways so the scaling doesn't get quite as ***** as it sounds. Besides that, sometimes the Creation Trio unironically do get involved with the actual story stuff like Rainbow Rocket Cyrus having them as part of his battle team and then still being inferior to Rainbow Rocket Giovanni.

 

[Jinx666]

You're making these profiles for the basis of them being characters in a story. They're a blank slate character insert that the player gets to customize how they see fit.

Ergo, yeah sure, its fine to list every potential Pokemon they can logically obtain in their region/dex (and anything in post game wilds ig?). However it becomes massively convoluted and farfetchd if you then try to say they get access to every Pokemon you have to use extralinking from other games to give them, as thats literally a mechanic made for players to get to use any Pokemon they want. It also forces them into tiers that they dont realistically scale to.

You cant use this sort of logic either because technically someone can get an Arceus and whatnot before like, the 2nd gym badge if they use this trading. Trying to account for all these possibilities that do not fit the story as opposed to making each protag represent the REGION theyre in is just unnecessarily convoluted and causes more issues than its worth. The only incentive to do it is upscaling

 

[Bobsican]

Okay but thats literally still trying to imply the character canonically can have access to all these mons, even legendaries/mythicals, that in lore they shouldnt have if theyr're not catchable in the game. Theres nothing saying they 100% completed their own pokedex, let alone their dex.

You'd also be forced to scale EVERY character post gen 4 to Tier 2 just for the sake of having access to the Creation Trio. Theres implications behind it. The protagonists would also then just kind of be clones of eachother, except they progressively get stronger because they have 'everything other trainers before them had and more'

At the same time dex completion is a core aspect of completion in the series, and is even directly noticed whenever it happens in every game. The setting goes out of its way to enable this in a natural manner as explained before, so this seems more like an argument from incredulity than a proper way to address the further inconsistencies that this approach would do (such as making double standards relative to the current way the series is treated, given that the canon split was debunked as you may recall, as well as pretending that stuff like the Sinjoh Ruins event in HGSS isn't canon out of requiring an Arceus obtained from DPPt). We do already scale several trainers after Gen 4 to tier 2, so it isn't really that groundbreaking by the standards of the series at this point.