• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Upgrade Sinners and Shades (GENSHIN IMPACT)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sahlwrld said:
Most everyone is agree and leaning towards agree to HDE + Low 2-C.
We literally just need the staffs to came here.
Click to expand...

Alright. I also agree with the Low 2-C + HDE for the shades.

Although I still don't understand why the Sovereign Dragons should be Low 2-C (with limited dimensional manipulation).
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
Although I still don't understand why the Sovereign Dragons should be Low 2-C (with limited dimensional manipulation).
Click to expand...
Because the Seven Sovereigns are once onpar with the Heavenly Principles and the Four Shades for 40 years in their war.

"When the Doves Held Branches"
When the eternal throne of the heavens came, the world was made anew. Then the true lord, the Primordial One, came forth and did battle against the seven terrifying sovereigns, dragon-lords of the old world. The Primordial One created shining shades of itself, and the number of these shades was four.

"On Phanes, or The Primordial One"
The Primordial One may have been Phanes. It had wings and a crown, and was birthed from an egg, androgynous in nature. But for the world to be created, the egg's shell had to be broken. However, Phanes, the Primordial One, used the eggshell to separate the "universe" and the "microcosm of the world."

"Forty Years After the Held Branches"
Forty winters entombed the flames, and forty summers churned the seas. The Seven Sovereigns were vanquished, and the seven nations submitted to the heavens. The Primordial One, the great sovereign, began the creation of heaven and earth for "our" sake — that of its creations which it cherished most, who would soon appear upon this earth.
Click to expand...
 
Sahlwrld said:
Because the Seven Sovereigns are once onpar with the Heavenly Principles and the Four Shades for 40 years in their war.
Click to expand...

Honestly, I haven’t seen evidence that the Shades are physically Low 2-C beyond simply embodying a fundamental law of cosmology that encompasses the entire universe (the reason of why their concepts are HDE)

Even in Istaroth’s case, it is more that she is conceptually time itself, but possesses a physical that interacts with three-dimensional reality.

I would say all the Shades qualify as Low 2-C via Environmental Destruction, since by representing the laws of the universe they can destabilize or manipulate those laws to destroy that universe. But from that to saying the dragons scale physically to Low 2-C.. there’s quite a gap.
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
Honestly, I haven’t seen evidence that the Shades are physically Low 2-C beyond simply embodying a fundamental law of cosmology that encompasses the entire universe (the reason of why their concepts are HDE)
Click to expand...
We define a temporal dimension here in VSBW as “the set of all spatial snapshots whose cardinality is Aleph 1”.
This is Low 2-C.

And the main reasons for Istaroth's HDE is; her being literal time or temporal dimension itself and embodying the entire timeline of the universe.

Why i said she's "embodying the entire timeline of the universe"?
1. The Authority of Reason that Phanes' had is a Universal Framework and governs everything in the universe.
2. She's literally 14 Billion years just like irl universe age.
3. She can freely control the timelines, either rewriting it or create new ones (hence 2-C in her profiles though its just ENV Destruction)
Rewriting the entire Timelines already gave you Low 2-C.
ExcelsisBerny said:
Even in Istaroth’s case, it is more that she is conceptually time itself, but possesses a physical that interacts with three-dimensional reality.
Click to expand...
Merely just her Avatar.
ExcelsisBerny said:
I would say all the Shades qualify as Low 2-C via Environmental Destruction, since by representing the laws of the universe they can destabilize or manipulate those laws to destroy that universe. But from that to saying the dragons scale physically to Low 2-C.. there’s quite a gap.
Click to expand...
Why would that anyway, if we're talking about Enviromental Destruction, i could give all the shades 2-C Enviromental Destruction chainscale from Istaroth because the four shades is essentially coming from the same source and the same divinity energy.
 
Everyone is just not ready for high tier Genshin Impact, no offense but they gotta update their knowledge of this game more.
 
Sahlwrld said:
We define a temporal dimension here in VSBW as “the set of all spatial snapshots whose cardinality is Aleph 1”.
This is Low 2-C.

And the main reasons for Istaroth's HDE is; her being literal time or temporal dimension itself and embodying the entire timeline of the universe.

Why i said she's "embodying the entire timeline of the universe"?
1. The Authority of Reason that Phanes' had is a Universal Framework and governs everything in the universe.
2. She's literally 14 Billion years just like irl universe age.
3. She can freely control the timelines, either rewriting it or create new ones (hence 2-C in her profiles though its just ENV Destruction)
Rewriting the entire Timelines already gave you Low 2-C.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that is why I said her conceptual self is HDE.

Again, the Low 2-C comes from applying their hax to reality as fundamental laws, not from anything physical. The conceptual form of Istaroth obviously cannot throw a punch; she needs a physical avatar to manifest and interact with three dimensional reality. Therefore you cannot argue that the Shades are physically Low 2-C just because they encompass the universe under the laws they represent.

They can use the law they embody to destroy the universe, yes, but that is an application of their hax. This is why I consider Environmental Destruction a better option than a full tier.
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
Again, the Low 2 C comes from applying their hax to reality as fundamental laws, not from anything physical. The conceptual form of Istaroth obviously cannot throw a punch; she needs a physical avatar to manifest and interact with three dimensional reality. Therefore you cannot argue that the Shades are physically Low 2 C just because they encompass the universe under the laws they represent.

They can use the law they embody to destroy the universe, yes, but that is an application of their hax. This is why I consider Environmental Destruction a better option than a full tier.
Click to expand...
The funny thing is that their avatar is also Low 2-C like Istaroth, she physically
Manipulating the entire timeline in her current form.
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
Yeah, that is why I said her conceptual self is HDE.

Again, the Low 2-C comes from applying their hax to reality as fundamental laws, not from anything physical. The conceptual form of Istaroth obviously cannot throw a punch; she needs a physical avatar to manifest and interact with three dimensional reality. Therefore you cannot argue that the Shades are physically Low 2-C just because they encompass the universe under the laws they represent.

They can use the law they embody to destroy the universe, yes, but that is an application of their hax. This is why I consider Environmental Destruction a better option than a full tier.
Click to expand...
Personally I interpret Istaroth as the embodiment of Time whereas her “true form” is the temporal dimension itself. And she would likely share this with Asmoday who’d be space itself as her “true form”
 
Sahlwrld said:
The funny thing is that their avatar is also Low 2-C like Istaroth, she physically
Manipulating the entire timeline in her current form.
Click to expand...

That's not what "physically" mean. Unless she is literally grabbing the time axis with her hands, that's just hax, like I said above.
 
Super_Nova said:
Personally I interpret Istaroth as the embodiment of Time whereas her “true form” is the temporal dimension itself. And she would likely share this with Asmoday who’d be space itself as her “true form”
Click to expand...

Yeah, but time isn’t Low 2-C per se. For time to qualify as Low 2-C, it needs to be interwoven with space in an indivisible continuum, with Asmoday conceptually complementing that structure.

Both can destroy the universe through their hax, as they represent fundamental laws of it, but it’s solely through their abilities, not through physical means.
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
Yeah, but time isn’t Low 2-C per se. For time to qualify as Low 2-C, it needs to be interwoven with space in an indivisible continuum, with Asmoday conceptually complementing that structure.
Click to expand...
This is a pretty fair point, but I’d always sort of assumed it’s granted. Maybe VSBW standards aren’t so generous tho idk, but from what I’m reading here it seems like the wiki generally assumes that the temporal dimension already comprises the spatial snapshots within itself, the same way it assumes indiscrete-ness for the standard Space-Time.
 
Super_Nova said:
This is a pretty fair point, but I’d always sort of assumed it’s granted. Maybe VSBW standards aren’t so generous tho idk, but from what I’m reading here it seems like the wiki generally assumes that the temporal dimension already comprises the spatial snapshots within itself, the same way it assumes indiscrete-ness for the standard Space-Time.
Click to expand...

But that would not make sense, because Istaroth is time, not spacetime. Likewise, Asmoday is space, not spacetime.

While the union of three spatial dimensions and one temporal axis forms a four dimensional construct Low 2-C, the two concepts on their own do not share that same scale, so giving Low 2-C to each Shade because of that makes no sense.

So why do I say Low 2-C via Environmental Destruction does make sense. Because the Shades can destroy the universe by applying the law they represent. Whether you think it is simply a chain effect that follows from destabilizing the concept they embody is irrelevant. The point is that, technically, they can do it.
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
But that would not make sense, because Istaroth is time, not spacetime. Likewise, Asmoday is space, not spacetime.

While the union of three spatial dimensions and one temporal axis forms a four dimensional construct Low 2-C, the two concepts on their own do not share that same scale, so giving Low 2-C to each Shade because of that makes no sense.

So why do I say Low 2-C via Environmental Destruction does make sense. Because the Shades can destroy the universe by applying the law they represent. Whether you think it is simply a chain effect that follows from destabilizing the concept they embody is irrelevant. The point is that, technically, they can do it.
Click to expand...
I’m only vying HDE for Istaroth tho. That is to say that she is the temporal dimension whose points (the “moments” she is) each contain a 3-dimensional snapshot (which would each be Asmoday). Not the other shades tho, they aren’t physically the timeline. (But their concepts would be HDE)

But I guess this sort of subsumes both Istaroth and Asmoday into each other, so you are kinda correct here. But, eh… maybe this can be circumvented by only saying that their manifestations are separate whilst they remain unified as a whole in physical Space-Time. This is probably too much headcanon thooo
 
Super_Nova said:
I’m only vying HDE for Istaroth tho. That is to say that she is the temporal dimension whose points (the “moments” she is) each contain a 3-dimensional snapshot (which would each be Asmoday). Not the other shades tho, they aren’t physically the timeline. (But their concepts would be HDE)

But I guess this sort of subsumes both Istaroth and Asmoday into each other, so you are kinda correct here. But, eh… maybe this can be circumvented by only saying that their manifestations are separate whilst they remain unified as a whole in physical Space-Time. This is probably too much headcanon thooo
Click to expand...

Yeah. My solution addresses that problem without the need of creating a headcanon.
 
Bruh. Whatever, we can wait for staff now.

My proposal is to remove the Low 2-C scaling because its premise is nonsensical, and instead scale the Shades to Low 2-C via Environmental Destruction.
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
Honestly, I haven’t seen evidence that the Shades are physically Low 2-C beyond simply embodying a fundamental law of cosmology that encompasses the entire universe (the reason of why their concepts are HDE)

Even in Istaroth’s case, it is more that she is conceptually time itself, but possesses a physical that interacts with three-dimensional reality.

I would say all the Shades qualify as Low 2-C via Environmental Destruction, since by representing the laws of the universe they can destabilize or manipulate those laws to destroy that universe. But from that to saying the dragons scale physically to Low 2-C.. there’s quite a
Click to expand...
Musica Mundana is the authority of the heavenly principles that govern the entire universe, even the concept of time itself. Istaroth is that concept of time, which can alter or create entire timelines. The chaos of Musica Mundana can destroy the entire universe.

Moreover, the energy of the Shades, I'm pretty sure the energy of the gods is UES. Since they created UES in Genshin Impact, they can clearly use it.
 
Furina003 said:
Musica Mundana is the authority of the heavenly principles that govern the entire universe, even the concept of time itself. Istaroth is that concept of time, which can alter or create entire timelines. The chaos of Musica Mundana can destroy the entire universe.

Moreover, the energy of the Shades, I'm pretty sure the energy of the gods is UES. Since they created UES in Genshin Impact, they can clearly use it.
Click to expand...

Okay, so? That doesn't go against anything I said. I'm not denying that the Shades can destroy Universes using their powers.
 
Ronova also has the authority to end/destroy the authority of Shades.

For example, Istaroth and Asmoday created spacetime, but their authority is limited to creating or altering it. Ronova, as "death," has the authority to end the creations of other Shades, such as destroying Asmoday's space.

So, Shades can not only create but also destroy/end what they create.

The Shades complement each other like left and right.

Asmoday and Istaroth created spacetime, and Ronova is the end of that spacetime.
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
Okay, so? That doesn't go against anything I said. I'm not denying that the Shades can destroy Universes using their powers.
Click to expand...
First, shade not can only creation but also can destroy something, so this can scaling to stat physical
Furina003 said:
Ronova also has the authority to end/destroy the authority of Shades.

For example, Istaroth and Asmoday created spacetime, but their authority is limited to creating or altering it. Ronova, as "death," has the authority to end the creations of other Shades, such as destroying Asmoday's space.

So, Shades can not only create but also destroy/end what they create.

The Shades complement each other like left and right.

Asmoday and Istaroth created spacetime, and Ronova is the end of that spacetime.
Click to expand...
Second, Yeah, I think it would extend to physical stats, since shades only use one authority as their power. For example, if Istaroth has the "authority of time," then Istaroth will only use that authority, whether it's for creation or combat. Istaroth's authority is only time, and she will use the same energy to create, change , or combat.
And this can scale to physical stats.

I've asked about it here.
 
Last edited:
Furina003 said:
First, shade not can only creation but also can destroy something, so this can scaling to stat physical
Click to expand...

No??? Wtf. The way they destroy stuff is via hax.

Furina003 said:
Second, Yeah, I think it would extend to physical stats, since shades only use one authority as their power. For example, if Istaroth has the "authority of time," then Istaroth will only use that authority, whether it's for creation or combat. Istaroth's authority is only time, and she will use the same energy to create, change , or combat.
And this can scale to physical stats.
Click to expand...

I genuinely don't understand your point at all.
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
What does that even mean 😭
Click to expand...
Rip grammar to that guy but i'll try to explain what means.

He said that the shades power or their divinity energy is a UES so it can be scaled to their physical stats because their divinity energy is also used to create a UES.

He made a QnA thread where he asked "if he uses divinity energy and this energy is only he who can use it, but this energy is what he uses to fight and create something, this energy is also what he uses to create ues, is this divinity energy included in ues too?" <(this "he" is referring to Phanes)
and then after the question he basically got a Yes answer.

They use their respective powers to create or destroy, and their physical strength is also the power of their respective concepts. So like Ronova punches a wall with the power of death, Asmoday with the power of Space, and so on. In other words, their powers can also be used for physical combat since they don't have any power besides Time, Space, Life and Death.

So.. the point is, The Four Shades Power is a UES too, therefore, it can be scaled to their physical stats.

And, their powers can counter each other such as Ronova who is able to kill the Space created by Asmoday.
 
Last edited:
Well, if the UES means that Istaroth will not have a separate AP through environmental destruction, doesn't that mean that his authority over time would no longer be environmental destruction 2-C?
 
Sahlwrld said:
He said that the shades power or their divinity energy is a UES so it can be scaled to their physical stats because their divinity energy is also used to create a UES.
Click to expand...

Show me an accepted explanation of the verse where “divinity energy” is treated as a UES (and not just a QnA where the question exists in a contextual void).

Also show me where, in the wiki pages, it is stated that if you create something through hax, that thing necessarily scales to your physical attributes despite there being no correspondence between the two at all.

I get the feeling you are trying to abuse a wiki system to bypass the logical problem I presented above.
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
Show me an accepted explanation of the verse where “divinity energy” is treated as a UES (and not just a QnA where the question exists in a contextual void).

Also show me where, in the wiki pages, it is stated that if you create something through hax, that thing necessarily scales to your physical attributes despite there being no correspondence between the two at all.

I get the feeling you are trying to abuse a wiki system to bypass the logical problem I presented above.
Click to expand...
Well, at least to me it seems simple: Phanes (creator of a UES System) + Ronova + Asmoday + Istaroth + Naberius = Shadows of Phanes with conceptual authorities and powers coming from the one who created a UES System = Divine UES Energy.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

MSahla
  • Locked
Four Shades Boundary/Conceptual Manipulation
3 4 5
Replies
182
Views
18K
MSahla
MSahla
MSahla
  • Locked
[Genshin] Small Four Shades Addition and Dvalin's LS Upgrade.
Replies
9
Views
864
LoudestProcedure
LoudestProcedure
MSahla
  • Locked
[ACCEPTED] Descender Physiology Page Creation, and Gave It to the Four Shades As Well.
Replies
28
Views
3K
MSahla
MSahla
MSahla
  • Locked
Minor change for the Shades [Genshin Impact]
2
Replies
45
Views
4K
MSahla
MSahla
MSahla
  • Locked
[Genshin] 4-A God-Tiers Upgrade 😰 (🥀)
4 5 6
Replies
214
Views
11K
LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
Back
Top