Devil May Cry: Metaphysical Revisions (Part-2)

[ExcelsisBerny]

So you're conceding that the darkness and light are the DW and HW respectively and thereby one and the same. Therefore, the light/darkness cannot precede the HW/DW.

I've literally never said that light and darkness predate the HW and DW

I said both predate its inhabitants.

 

[Unoriginal777]

I've literally never said that light and darkness predate the HW and DW

I said both predates its inhabitants.

Whoops my mistake. Long day and all. It happens. Apologies for strawmanning you.

 

[Abstractions]

So you're arguing that the story is unreal according to Urizen.

The story that he explicitly cares not of, which is the everything that he refers to as the illusion because all he cares for is the power it provides him.

The onus is on you because of the whole story tidbit which you keep leaving aside. I am simply taking Urizen at his word instead of detracting from what he's saying.

I have no idea what you're talking about, and simply throwing my words back at me doesn't exactly change the direction of the conversation.

 

[Unoriginal777]

The story that he explicitly cares not of, which is the everything that he refers to as the illusion because all he cares for is the power it provides him.


I have no idea what you're talking about, and simply throwing my words back at me doesn't exactly change the direction of the conversation.

The story that he explicitly cares not of and includes in the banner of being an illusion created by the Qliphoth. The issue is that both the story and the place are called a creation of the Qliphoth. You can't sweep that away by just saying that Urizen is calling it illusionary compared to the Qliphoth because it is insignificant. There's a creation statement here according to the context. And what is created? The story and the place they are in atm.

 

[Abstractions]

And what is created? The story and the place they are in atm.

Yes, which is an illusion. As demonstrated when it begins to crack away like glass when he consumes the Fruit.

 

[Unoriginal777]

Yes, which is an illusion. As demonstrated when it begins to crack away like glass when he consumes the Fruit.

So you're telling me the story the place is based off of: Dante and Vergil's past is just an illusion. That doesn't add up. Both that and the illusion they are in are created by the fruit in some way. The context doesn't give us other options here because he places both of these elements (story and illusion) under the banner of everything. This everything which is illusionary to the fruit, probably a comparison of power in which the fruit is so powerful everything else is illusionary compared to it as it's the only way to make the statement make sense without ignoring the story element of the equation here. In any case, I think I'll stop for the day (will be back tomorrow). And again sorry for strawmanning you @ExcelsisBerny.

 

[Abstractions]

So you're telling me the story the place is based off of: Dante and Vergil's past is just an illusion. That doesn't add up. Both that and the illusion they are in are created by the fruit in some way. The context doesn't give us other options here.

The story is tied to the illusion, they are both the same subject. Urizen makes it clear that these things do not matter to him and his follow up to this is to state that what he's after is the strength from the Fruit. There isn't a need for any gymnastics here to understand what he's speaking about, the need for power and the statement that everything they are seeing is the product of an illusion are separate thoughts.

 

[Unoriginal777]

The story is tied to the illusion, they are both the same subject. Urizen makes it clear that these things do not matter to him and his follow up to this is to state that what he's after is the strength from the Fruit. There isn't a need for any gymnastics here to understand what he's speaking about, the need for power and the statement that everything they are seeing is the product of an illusion are separate thoughts.

Alright it's late for me rn, but I'll leave this since you responded so quickly on why they are separate thoughts? The sentence structure thinks otherwise. I'll show you: "I am no longer interested in that story. Or this place. (or is the star of the show here because as a conjunction it links the twin elements into a single context). Everything (as a final conclusion on the matter referring to both elements previously linked linguistically). Is an illusion created by the fruit. Arbitrarily."

I'm not sure how else it could be interpreted outside of this. The only way to do so would be to somehow detach the "story" from the creation context that envelops the "place", but "or" unfortunately, is a rat bastard and doesn't make that possible because it both acknowledges the two elements as separate (so you can't call the "story" the illusion it is based off of), yet brought under the banner of "everything."

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree with bernny.

 

[Vietthai96]

Yeah like what? Why Urizen is matter here, Dante just followed him, and when he saw the illusion about their house he yapped about the their childhood story, wanting to change Urizen mind about their mother favored Danter over Vergil when the demons try to kill them in the past, which led to Vergil pursue the path of power. And Urizen just said he didn't care, because he didn't have the memories of those stuff because dude is simply demon half of Vergil. You guys literally arguing against the lore and texts itself and making headcanon

I also don't know why you guys bring those light and darkness, evil and good thing, they are only sound like two opposing things, not literal. Human World is stated to be ray of light, but it is a metaphor, there is no force of light as you claimed, it isn't an underlying metaphysical force that compose Human World and oppose the Demon World, human don't possesses any power which is called force of light, only Demon have power called demonic power. The light thing about human is just unlike Demon, human is capable of love, goodness, and hope, those kinds of thing and funny, Dante said Demon can grow stronger if they are capable of goodness and love like human. The rest was explained by Berny

Anyway, these things aren't even qualify as literal metaphysical duality, let alone logical duality which is requirement for Paraconsistent Physiology.

Disagree with the thread

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

In summary: 0% evidence; 99% yapping; 1% Goku solos

Legit this is how most convos I have with them go lol

I disagree for your amazing reasons, saved me the time and effort

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

I agree with @ExcelsisBerny and disagree with the thread.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

snip

While you are here, mind checking the other thread? I need 1 staff

 

[Robo432343]

disagree for tony's reasons

 

[Unoriginal777]

Yeah like what? Why Urizen is matter here, Dante just followed him, and when he saw the illusion about their house he yapped about the their childhood story, wanting to change Urizen mind about their mother favored Danter over Vergil when the demons try to kill them in the past, which led to Vergil pursue the path of power. And Urizen just said he didn't care, because he didn't have the memories of those stuff because dude is simply demon half of Vergil. You guys literally arguing against the lore and texts itself and making headcanon

I also don't know why you guys bring those light and darkness, evil and good thing, they are only sound like two opposing things, not literal. Human World is stated to be ray of light, but it is a metaphor, there is no force of light as you claimed, it isn't an underlying metaphysical force that compose Human World and oppose the Demon World, human don't possesses any power which is called force of light, only Demon have power called demonic power. The light thing about human is just unlike Demon, human is capable of love, goodness, and hope, those kinds of thing and funny, Dante said Demon can grow stronger if they are capable of goodness and love like human. The rest was explained by Berny

Anyway, these things aren't even qualify as literal metaphysical duality, let alone logical duality which is requirement for Paraconsistent Physiology.

Disagree with the thread

Urizen does actually remember who he is. You're just saying that he doesn't without evidence. In fact in the scan he states that he no longer cares about that story implying he remembers the story and that he simply cares nothing about it. Not anymore at least. Him being the demon half of Vergil doesn't necessitate that he doesn't remember his own past. That's a non sequitur statement that requires evidence to substantiate. In fact various quotes imply that he does remember. Also long story short the reason Urizen matters is that it is likely he is stating that the Qliphoth created the cosmology. Which aligns with other scans which place the Qliphoth at a similar level of importance. This in turn supports a take on type 2 Paraconsistency (at least that was the intention) in that Qliphoth surpasses the duality of light and darkness that was being proposed here.

As for the light versus darkness I will say this. Keep in mind that demons do not naturally have the power of the human heart. It is something Sparda gained from contact with humanity. A kind of positive energy that brings about an implied positive energy as the other side of the coin from the negative energy brought about by negative emotions demons normally possess. That aside, I can concede that perhaps the new Paraconsistency standards will have to be something I study more in the future. There is much I have to learn about them.

 

[Vietthai96]

Urizen does actually remember who he is. You're just saying that he doesn't without evidence. In fact in the scan he states that he no longer cares about that story implying he remembers the story and that he simply cares nothing about it. Not anymore at least. Him being the demon half of Vergil doesn't necessitate that he doesn't remember his own past. That's a non sequitur statement that requires evidence to substantiate. In fact various quotes imply that he does remember

Dude, he only remember Dante, he literally said in the cutscene before he eat the Fruit that he has no recollection of the childhood

I have no recollection of this tale, or this place. All i ever wanted is power

he remember Dante because he is obsessed with power and want to beat Dante

Also long story short the reason Urizen matters is that it is likely he is stating that the Qliphoth created the cosmology

Huh?, created the cosmology?, scan please

Which aligns with other scans which place the Qliphoth at a similar level of importance.

Scan literally said it reside in the Demon World. Like being important or whatnot isn't even a supporting evidence here

This in turn supports a take on type 2 Paraconsistency (at least that was the intention) in that Qliphoth surpasses the duality of light and darkness that was being proposed here.

It surpass light and darkness but somehow reside on demon realm, which is darkness???. Do you see how contradictory you trying to claim?

As for the light versus darkness I will say this. Keep in mind that demons do not naturally have the power of the human heart. It is something Sparda gained from contact with humanity. A kind of positive energy that brings about an implied positive energy as the other side of the coin from the negative energy brought about by negative emotions demons normally possess. That aside, I can concede that perhaps the new Paraconsistency standards will have to be something I study more in the future. There is much I have to learn about them.

Seriously, no offense, did you guys even read your own scan?, Dante said about positive and negative emotion, and human hearts possesses those positive emotions such as love, not about energy, it is about positive emotiom could allows one to get strong and because Demon lack a heart, it is their weakness. Nothing here is about positive energy

Also even if i'm going with your route that positive emotion is positive energy, and it oppose negative energy as you claim that light oppose darkness. Demons like Sparda who literally follow positive emotion should not gain more power but should be weaker because he is a demon who possess demonic power, but instead, dude getting stronger day by day because he awoke to justice. See, your claims is always contradicting and out of contexts

 

[Unoriginal777]

Dude, he only remember Dante, he literally said in the cutscene before he eat the Fruit that he has no recollection of the childhood


he remember Dante because he is obsessed with power and want to beat Dante


Huh?, created the cosmology?, scan please


Scan literally said it reside in the Demon World. Like being important or whatnot isn't even a supporting evidence here


It surpass light and darkness but somehow reside on demon realm, which is darkness???. Do you see how contradictory you trying to claim?



Seriously, no offense, did you guys even read your own scan?, Dante said about positive and negative emotion, and human hearts possesses those positive emotions such as love, not about energy, it is about positive emotiom could allows one to get strong and because Demon lack a heart, it is their weakness. Nothing here is about positive energy

Also even if i'm going with your route that positive emotion is positive energy, and it oppose negative energy as you claim that light oppose darkness. Demons like Sparda who literally follow positive emotion should not gain more power but should be weaker because he is a demon who possess demonic power, but instead, dude getting stronger day by day because he awoke to justice. See, your claims is always contradicting and out of contexts

You state that he only remembers Dante, but then Urizen states how he lost so much in his life. Let alone that the only things Vergil split from himself are his humanity and the trauma of Nelo Angelo. Clearly the implications is that Urizen remembers his past. He's just playing coy as though that past is irrelevant. It's something Vergil does even when he's one again and says "I have no recollection" to deny that he does something he considered embarrassing. Arguing that Urizen literally forgot everything except his memories about Dante is just ignorance of his character's nuances.

Sure the scan is the one wherein Urizen states that the Qliphoth created literally everything arbitrarily.

Being important enough to create all life and being what fundamentally controls the nature of the DW from the very beginning is a lot more important than you're giving it credit for.

Now for the emotions scan I think I need to reevaluate this scan a bit. I'll get back to you on it in a latter comment.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I think the stuff about the first Qliphoth creating the human world is interesting. I do however think that Urizen's words are too vague to stretch as far as this, especially when Occam's Razor indicates that he just means the place they're in. Taken literally, the current Qliphoth fruit didn't exist when the human world first started, making it impossible for it to have created it.

There is some interesting stuff here, but focusing mostly on Urizen's words seems impractical.

 

[Unoriginal777]

I think the stuff about the first Qliphoth creating the human world is interesting. I do however think that Urizen's words are too vague to stretch as far as this, especially when Occam's Razor indicates that he just means the place they're in. Taken literally, the current Qliphoth fruit didn't exist when the human world first started, making it impossible for it to have created it.

There is some interesting stuff here, but focusing mostly on Urizen's words seems impractical.

Not necessarily. Keep in mind that it is the source of all life. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts. Demons or humans. The Qliphoth came first. So clearly in the story of the chicken and egg. The egg came first in DMC's case. If it is a logical problem for preceding the universe as I propose it would've been a problem for preceding life as the scans unambiguously clarify even if you disagree with the former proposition.

And no the words from Urizen are not impractical. They align very well in fact. I can break down the sentence/linguistic structure for you if you want? The sentence structure has Urizen state that he doesn't care about the story (the actual events) or the place they are in. Both or better yet, everything is illusionary compared to fruit and created arbitrarily by it. Not only does the literature context not favor your Occam's the term "everything" makes it harder to sustain your use of Occam's because everything cannot be spliced. At bare minimum Urizen is saying that the events and the illusion based on these events were both created by the Qliphoth in some way. Now given the scans for the Qliphoth one can easily deduce that that this refers to the Cosmology.

Need I mention relevant scans like the one from the 5 art book I keep tossing at people that says the Qliphoth literally makes the DW what it is. Which implies it has been doing so from the very beginning to the very present day.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Alright, I got some free time. Let's roll in:

I also don't know why you guys bring those light and darkness, evil and good thing, they are only sound like two opposing things, not literal. Human World is stated to be ray of light, but it is a metaphor, there is no force of light as you claimed, it isn't an underlying metaphysical force that compose Human World and oppose the Demon World, human don't possesses any power which is called force of light, only Demon have power called demonic power. The light thing about human is just unlike Demon, human is capable of love, goodness, and hope, those kinds of thing and funny, Dante said Demon can grow stronger if they are capable of goodness and love like human. The rest was explained by Berny

Anyway, these things aren't even qualify as literal metaphysical duality, let alone logical duality which is requirement for Paraconsistent Physiology.

Yeah, no. Trying to downgrade the dual nature of the world is useless as the guide says clearly that they are duality of nature. Other scans further emphasis on that notion so I don't need to add more into it when it is already obvious by now.

This does not work, because demons fall under one of the two opposing poles of the dichotomy, namely darkness, which means they are literally subject to it. I do not understand why you call them type 1, since to qualify as such they would have to stand above both extremes.

I don't know how wiki treats limitation to only one side of fundamental state of duality but I wish to add one more to that notion.

Demons by their very nature does not follow the laws of Human World (Light). This suggests to me that not only they precedes the idea of light but they are seemingly unbounded by its nature via being purely the entity of "Evils" or "Darkness" as one may say. I originally believed that it may gave them some sort of adualism in a way.

This is not a logical contradiction whatsoever. Saying that a being is not bound to the concepts of "right" and "wrong" simply means it operates under a moral framework that goes beyond that of humans. That's it.

Being an androgynous, sexless entity does not qualify you for Paraconsistent Physiology. You need to show that the character is unbounded by actual cosmological dichotomies; otherwise, literally 90 percent of the wiki would have that ability, and it would not be combat applicable either.

I genuinely don't see anything here that justifies a type 2. If Argosax is a demon, then he is necessarily bounded by the darkness.

There is something you are not trying to understand here. Argosax was repeatedly implied to be non-dual in nature via being:

1. Genderless.
2. Outside of the concepts of right and wrong.
3. Transcendent to everything.
4. All and nothing.
5. Idea of sun and moon combined.
6. Have every name and form of Demons that exists (or does not exist).

There is quite literally no other sequel before or after it went this deep over dualism then DMC2 did over one boss specifically. Therefore, the presented philosophical implications on multiple occasion makes it rather suspicious to simply assume that he isn't some sort of non-binary entity. At the very least, I suspect that he should have possible rating if anything. While NEP type 3 is more of general conclusion derived from his all-encompassing nature that includes existent and non-existent entities.

Same stuff as the demons. This is explicitly bound by the dichotomy of darkness and light.

I understand that the wiki tends to prefer content that’s straightforward and easily digestible which I can’t really blame it for but the scans I presented suggest that the Tree of Evil has influence over how the world currently operates and how life has existed across both worlds since the dawn of time through it.

This was further proven with life came out of Light side-by-side since it's introduction as shown by its active resistance against the Darkness (Demon World) from the get go.

Yeah like what? Why Urizen is matter here, Dante just followed him, and when he saw the illusion about their house he yapped about the their childhood story, wanting to change Urizen mind about their mother favored Danter over Vergil when the demons try to kill them in the past, which led to Vergil pursue the path of power. And Urizen just said he didn't care, because he didn't have the memories of those stuff because dude is simply demon half of Vergil. You guys literally arguing against the lore and texts itself and making headcanon

I also don't know why you guys bring those light and darkness, evil and good thing, they are only sound like two opposing things, not literal. Human World is stated to be ray of light, but it is a metaphor, there is no force of light as you claimed, it isn't an underlying metaphysical force that compose Human World and oppose the Demon World, human don't possesses any power which is called force of light, only Demon have power called demonic power. The light thing about human is just unlike Demon, human is capable of love, goodness, and hope, those kinds of thing and funny, Dante said Demon can grow stronger if they are capable of goodness and love like human. The rest was explained by Berny

Anyway, these things aren't even qualify as literal metaphysical duality, let alone logical duality which is requirement for Paraconsistent Physiology.

Disagree with the thread

While I personally don't care about Urizen stuff, Unoriginal does has a point considering how people often mistook it with illusion thingy but if you look at it closely, there are implications that it was referring to "everything" in existence rather then that specific place. This video goes deep into the idea behind that statement. So, I believe it should be taken into account with everything presented here.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I've already addressed all that. You just repeated yourself. I refuse to engage in an endless back and forth so we can wait more staff members.

You should put the votes count on the OP.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Fine by me. Dunno why y'all suddenly decided to discuss it without OP who started it in the first place.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

There is something you are not trying to understand here. Argosax was repeatedly implied to be non-dual in nature via being:

1. Genderless.
2. Outside of the concepts of right and wrong.
3. Transcendent to everything.
4. All and nothing.
5. Idea of sun and moon combined.
6. Have every name and form of Demons that exists (or does not exist).

I do think this blatantly refers to a duality of some sort, but not entirely sure which type to qualify it as rn. Will see how the thread progresses.

 

[Tanin_iver]

Blud thought he was cooking, instead he burned the kitchen and needs someone to clean it up.
The OP itself is a bit too long and there was a lot of back and forth in the above comments. So, I will just stick to responding to the more concise comment that was presented later.
Just a refresher:

Paraconsistent Physiology, sometimes also referred to as Nonduality or Transduality, is an ability granted by existing in a state of being that violates the rules of classical logic. Entities with this ability would hence instead operate under the rules of a non-classical logic, frequently a paraconsistent logic and/or many-valued logic. As such they are entities that would usually be viewed as paradoxical.

Typically, entities of such a nature have some property that is not true for them and, at the same time, not false for them. Instead, it might be both true and false, neither true nor false, or in a third logical state that isn't true and false. For example: A rose with Paraconsistent Physiology could be both red and not red, neither red nor not red or the statement "the rose is red" could have the truth value "between" which the fiction has established to be a logical truth value that is neither true nor false.

This can be linked to the idea of dualities and hence also Nonduality. True and false are dualities, as is having and not having a property. In that way, being beyond such dualities would qualify as having Paraconsistent Physiology. More generally, existing outside of any duality where it's logically necessary to participate in one or the other would qualify.

Keeping the above in mind

Yeah, no. Trying to downgrade the dual nature of the world is useless as the guide says clearly that they are duality of nature. Other scans further emphasis on that notion so I don't need to add more into it when it is already obvious by now.

Yeah, the duality of Nature described here is that Evil is a reflection and likely meant a reflection of Good in the above context. So it can be argued that Good and Evil are a dual system of sort in the verse.
However, this doesn't normally qualify by our standards. To qualify in general it must be logical dualities such as 'Good and Not Good' and 'Evil and Not Evil' to be considered dualties by our standards. So we could debate this a bit but I don't think it would amount to much as we will see below.

I don't know how wiki treats limitation to only one side of fundamental state of duality but I wish to add one more to that notion.

Demons by their very nature does not follow the laws of Human World (Light).

Ohk.

This suggests to me that not only they precedes the idea of light but they are seemingly unbounded by its nature via being purely the entity of "Evils" or "Darkness" as one may say. I originally believed that it may gave them some sort of adualism in a way.

What, lol? Nah, it just means they are evil and nothing more. Just being purely Evil or Dark doesn't give you PP.

There is something you are not trying to understand here. Argosax was repeatedly implied to be non-dual in nature via being:

1. Genderless.

Like a Gobiodon histrio?

2. Outside of the concepts of right and wrong.

So, morally grey?
I mean even if we go with the interpretation that both Good and Evil are a dual system in verse, what could being Nondual to such a system even entail. I can see at most immunity to Morality Manipulation, which is ehh.

3. Transcendent to everything.

Its just Arius saying 'Transcend all' with Argosax's powers. But what does 'transcend all' refer to here, if its just transcend all weaker demons or be stronger than everyone then it should give nothing more than higher AP Ig. I mean something like transcend all dual distinctions could definitely warrant a Non-dual rating but this doesn't give much context for something like that.

4. All and nothing.

Now this is interesting. I can see something like PP Type 1 for the Genderbender and/or NEP Type 3 perhaps.

5. Idea of sun and moon combined.

So, is both Plasma and a rock? Jokes aside its talking about inspiration for the design of Argosax by Ikeno and not lore about the the verse itself.

6. Have every name and form of Demons that exists (or does not exist).

That's great and it should qualify for this but doesn't have anything to do with PP as far as I can see.

There is quite literally no other sequel before or after it went this deep over dualism then DMC2 did over one boss specifically. Therefore, the presented philosophical implications on multiple occasion makes it rather suspicious to simply assume that he isn't some sort of non-binary entity. At the very least, I suspect that he should have possible rating if anything. While NEP type 3 is more of general conclusion derived from his all-encompassing nature that includes existent and non-existent entities.

Yeah, I can see that.

I understand that the wiki tends to prefer content that’s straightforward and easily digestible which I can’t really blame it for but the scans I presented suggest that the Tree of Evil has influence over how the world currently operates and how life has existed across both worlds since the dawn of time through it.

Ohk, but how does that give PP? Like what is the the property that is not true and not false for the tree that we are supposed to infer from the scans?

This was further proven with life came out of Light side-by-side since it's introduction as shown by its active resistance against the Darkness (Demon World) from the get go.

So the Light faction actively resisted the Darkness, but what does it have to do with PP? Moreover, what is the property that is not true and not false and for which character or entity is this supposed to apply to?

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Blud thought he was cooking, instead he burned the kitchen and needs someone to clean it up.
The OP itself is a bit too long and there was a lot of back and forth in the above comments. So, I will just stick to responding to the more concise comment that was presented later.
Just a refresher:

Keeping the above in mind

Atleast I tried unlike someone who was gone and returned after a year or so.

Yeah, the duality of Nature described here is that Evil is a reflection and likely meant a reflection of Good in the above context. So it can be argued that Good and Evil are a dual system of sort in the verse.
However, this doesn't normally qualify by our standards. To qualify in general it must be logical dualities such as 'Good and Not Good' and 'Evil and Not Evil' to be considered dualties by our standards. So we could debate this a bit but I don't think it would amount to much as we will see below.

Yeah but when it's literally verbatim stated to be duality then I don't think we need to pull semantics over it.

What, lol? Nah, it just means they are evil and nothing more. Just being purely Evil or Dark doesn't give you PP.

Was an honest try but it seems to be the case so I'll refrain from that argument.

Like a Gobiodon histrio?

Uh huh.

So, morally grey?
I mean even if we go with the interpretation that both Good and Evil are a dual system in verse, what could being Nondual to such a system even entail. I can see at most immunity to Morality Manipulation, which is ehh.

Probably, probably not. It was more symbolizing their PP nature so I included it with others coz why not?

Its just Arius saying 'Transcend all' with Argosax's powers. But what does 'transcend all' refer to here, if its just transcend all weaker demons or be stronger than everyone then it should give nothing more than higher AP Ig. I mean something like transcend all dual distinctions could definitely warrant a Non-dual rating but this doesn't give much context for something like that.

It was still some sort of supporting evidence so I included it anyways.

Now this is interesting. I can see something like PP Type 1 for the Genderbender and/or NEP Type 3 perhaps.

Sure.

So, is both Plasma and a rock? Jokes aside its talking about inspiration for the design of Argosax by Ikeno and not lore about the the verse itself.

Except it says "idea," meaning it is trying to emphases his non-dual, unified nature rather than two separate aspects.

That's great and it should qualify for this but doesn't have anything to do with PP as far as I can see.

That was more in reference to "idea of sun and moon combined" scan and others.

Yeah, I can see that.

Cool.

Ohk, but how does that give PP? Like what is the the property that is not true and not false for the tree that we are supposed to infer from the scans?

My idea was that Qliphoth predates both ideas of Good/Light and Evil/Darkness as dualities that relates to nature of the world as a whole—I believe it's a fair assumption to make here personally.

So the Light faction actively resisted the Darkness, but what does it have to do with PP? Moreover, what is the property that is not true and not false and for which character or entity is this supposed to apply to?

That was moreso addressing how life existed from the moment our world (Light) was born. It was meant to emphasis that Qliphoth is the actual source of Light and likewise, Darkness as well. The resistance part isn’t the main point here.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Just to note. Stuff like "light and dark", "good and evil", "masculine and feminine", absolutely do NOT count for paraconsistent physiology and are entirely irrelevant.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Just to note. Stuff like "light and dark", "good and evil", "masculine and feminine", absolutely do NOT count for paraconsistent physiology and are entirely irrelevant.

I'm pretty sure Ultima said that duality of nature can be considered a duality according to wiki depending on the context.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Also I have doubts about Argosax being literally "All and Nothing" lmao. Doesn't seem entirely literal and is just flavor text especially when destroying him doesn't just destroy all existence. Also everything that happens would be irrelevant if he was actually just everything.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I'm pretty sure Ultima said that duality of nature can be considered a duality according to wiki depending on the context.

Except the context isn't here for those.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Except the context isn't here for those.

What more do you need? The series consistently portrays them as opposite as light and darkness across multiple fronts. At some point, trying to frame it according to "x and NOT x" gets ridiculous.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

What more do you need? The series consistently portrays them as opposite as light and darkness across multiple fronts. At some point, trying to frame it according to "x and NOT x" gets ridiculous.

The whole point is that merely being in opposition isn't enough (for example yin and yang is never gonna qualify without a fiction straying from what it normally means). This is why the page was renamed from nonduality because it was pretty much a confusing misnomer. It explicitly has to be the logical negation of the other (p and ¬p)

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Also I have doubts about Argosax being literally "All and Nothing" lmao. Doesn't seem entirely literal and is just flavor text especially when destroying him doesn't just destroy all existence. Also everything that happens would be irrelevant if he was actually just everything.

Except it actually fits perfectly with everything established here. Also, "destroying him destroys everything" what exactly do you mean by that? You do understand that this is referring to his physiology where he embodies every form and name of demons that includes both existent and non-existent entities like Sargassos, right?

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Except it actually fits perfectly with everything established here. Also, "destroying him destroys everything" what exactly do you mean by that? You do understand that this is referring to his physiology where he embodies every form and name of demons that includes both existent and non-existent entities like Sargassos, right?

Well I don't agree with that conclusion either. Just seems to be weird extrapolation to unrelated statements? Also the Sargasso dont even seem to be actually nonexistent as in NEP but that it's just a way to say they're transparent and intangible entities (existing in another realm) unless they're nearby. Dont agree with a very literal reading of that text.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Well I don't agree with that conclusion either. Just seems to be weird extrapolation to unrelated statements? Also the Sargasso dont even seem to be actually nonexistent as in NEP but that it's just a way to say they're transparent and intangible entities (existing in another realm) unless they're nearby. Dont agree with a very literal reading of that text.

By that logic, we wouldn’t be able to rely on any scan in any verse because nearly every franchise uses figurative language or non-literal phrasing at some point. The main issue isn’t about "literal vs non-literal" interpretation but whether the statements contradicts the notion and in this case, they simply don’t. Nothing presented actually contradicts Sargassos’ NEP. In fact, the material supports it because Dante can hit spiritual or non-physical beings yet can’t harm Sargassos unless they themselves "allow" to become tangible in order to interact with their victims.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

The whole point is that merely being in opposition isn't enough (for example yin and yang is never gonna qualify without a fiction straying from what it normally means). This is why the page was renamed from nonduality because it was pretty much a confusing misnomer. It explicitly has to be the logical negation of the other (p and ¬p)

Demons by their nature are currently accepted to be considered a conceptually abstract entities and the dualism in question relates to such entities. At the very least, we can argue that the duality being referenced is abstract which aligns with one of the main points regarding how dualism is treated. Light and Darkness also exemplify a form of dualism which is referred to explicitly as a "duality of nature" in the scan that I provided above alongside multiple other references highlighting how opposite these worlds are in reality. Now, how the wiki chooses to represent this is their decision but personally? I think it becomes limiting if we start over-restricting or "walling off" these statements if you know what I mean.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Also I have doubts about Argosax being literally "All and Nothing" lmao. Doesn't seem entirely literal and is just flavor text especially when destroying him doesn't just destroy all existence. Also everything that happens would be irrelevant if he was actually just everything.

That's literally what I said above but they are just ignoring that point and repeating the same stuff.

It's literally just flowery language to describe how he is an union of tons of demons.

 

[Agnaa]

Incredible that people are still trying to shove things into being Paraconsistent Physiology after our reword trying to clarify how it only applies in very niche circumstances.

Still peddling the same "They said light and darkness, good and evil, stability and chaos!", "They called it a duality!!", "They even called it a dual force!!!", "There's this irrelevant flavor text saying it's all and nothing!", "It created reality! That makes it beyond all dualities, right?!"

This is disgustingly far away from qualifying and doesn't deserve the length of discussion it's amassed so far.

Only a single thing claimed here could possibly qualify if you looked at it funny, and that case is an obvious minor instance of flowery language.

In other words, I disagree.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Incredible that people are still trying to shove things into being Paraconsistent Physiology after our reword trying to clarify how it only applies in very niche circumstances.

Still peddling the same "They said light and darkness, good and evil, stability and chaos!", "They called it a duality!!", "They even called it a dual force!!!", "There's this irrelevant flavor text saying it's all and nothing!", "It created reality! That makes it beyond all dualities, right?!"

This is disgustingly far away from qualifying and doesn't deserve the length of discussion it's amassed so far.

Only a single thing claimed here could possibly qualify if you looked at it funny, and that case is an obvious minor instance of flowery language.

In other words, I disagree.

So in other words, even mentioning a duality of nature doesn’t mean anything? Well, if that’s how strict the criteria have become then I’ve got nothing else to add.

If you can, go ahead and lock the thread.