Devil May Cry: Metaphysical Revisions (Part-2)

[SuperSonicTL]

Dualism Explanation​

Devil May Cry as a franchise is commonly revered as one that is entangled with the dualistic themes of light and darkness, good and evil, stability and chaos, and so on. However, upon closer inspection issues of dualism are a bit more deeper in DMC than previously assumed and now, in light of this newfound understanding, I will expound upon it in the following paragraphs. So sit tight with me as we venture deep into the nature of DMC's world.

Before the modern world we know of today, there was only a primordial Darkness and evil, a Demon's inherent nature. In opposition to this, an unimaginably powerful entity known as the Qliphoth (which I'll expand upon later) gave birth to an opposing force when it appended its will upon this primordial darkness. This specific force is later known as Light. This light is associated with the notion of good which is the nature of humans. Later, these two forces were separated by Pluto and formed their own domains in the greater cosmology.

It is important to note that this relationship is "specifically" referred to as a type of duality—meaning that this relationship revolves around two opposing forces as the basis of nature and thus, should be eligible to the wiki's standards for what can be considered a "dual force" given the context here—especially considering that Demons by their very nature are metaphysical entities so it's even more reasonable to consider this duality being fundamental to existence as a whole.

Demons​

Since time immemorial, the only entities that resided the greater cosmology outside of the primordial tree were Demons. These entities could not feel love and the idea of selflessness. They could only live as an abomination of the otherworld—an evil existence entirely with the Demon King Pluto—who was there before Human World was a thing—being described as the "God of Evil". Logically, they should all exist outside of the basic duality that predates the current world and given what the wiki here states, they should rightfully claim non-duality via being only limited to evil side of dual nature.

Argosax and Gods​

There are these unique Gods. These Gods fought against the Demons in a "Great War" but they seem to have lost since then... The thing is that these demons as such do not exist within the "concepts" of right or wrong (symbolizing logical contradiction) and exist in a "strange dimension". It is important to understand that these "Gods" are nothing more than demons themselves, since Itsuno stated that there is no other world apart from the Demonic and the Human and it must be taken into account that Humans themselves praise demons as "Gods". Argosax exists as the most "evil God" of them all, and he is represented as the ideas of the sun and moon combined, something perfect and "transcendent" existence to the world as a whole while also being depicted to violate the laws of gender duality. Lastly, he is also stated to be described as "all-and-nothing" which further solidifies that his nature is unbounded to such dual ideas which is a given considering he is suppose to be this ultimate goal of alchemy.

Furthermore, on the notion of "all-and-nothing" I would like to highlight that this represents a very important issue as it pertains to Argosax and similarly powerful entities at his level. Obviously, nothing refers to a state of non-existence, but the all, however, is likely a reference to Argosax's distinct quality of possessing all Demon abilities and forms across the board. This is of great significance here as demons in both their form and ability have such things determined primarily by their name (concept) which is synonymous with their soul that is their respective "truth" and ultimately their conceptual existence and power which is accepted here. For Argosax—to possess all forms and powers of Demons—inherently is to say that he (Argosax) possesses all Demon names (concepts) simultaneously, representing his nature as the accumulation of everything that exists within the primordial world and yet at the same time be a kind of non-existent entity akin to his rival Void Mundus or something as basic as naturally non-existent, Nightmarish Demons like Sargassos. This is a consistent notion as the Demon World which imposes names on demons by itself are ultimately surpassed by the Demon Kings who outscales the Demon World as a cosmology/system.

Qliphoth Tree​

I'm surprised that no one has decided to make its profile yet. I know we haven't gotten much from it since the lackluster lore focus in DMC5 but it's much deeper then we give it credit for. I kindly request to integrate his profile made by Lightning into the existing pages. As far as real world lore goes, Qliphoth and Sephiroth are two tree-like structures in Abrahamic religion. While Sephiroth represents all the goody-2-shoes stuff we prefer, Qliphoth is the total opposite and is the ultimate symbol of "evil".

In Devil May Cry series, there is no Sephiroth so Qliphoth seemingly covers all the good and evil roles by itself, existing as a tree that shapes the world around on its own. In the artbook, it was stated that Qliphoth "makes Demon World what it is". Now, I understand the sentence is kinda weak in terms of far outright explanation but considering the role of Qliphoth and how Light seemingly "popped up" into Darkness out of nowhere, you could say Qliphoth is the true reason how the cosmology is turned out to be as Demonic as it did which extends all the way to Humans whose blood have Demonic Energy stored in them. In addition, DMC5 has given us more context by saying that Qliphoth is the source of "all life" which includes both Humans and Demons alike. Thus, this makes it all clear that Qliphoth indeed is the bringer of such abstract ideas around regardless if they are good or evil for that matter.

Conclusion​

Here what I believe each one of these elements would receive:

• Demons: Paraconsistent Physiology via preceding the duality of Light and Darkness, existing outside the duality of nature as a result.
• Argosax the Chaos (and other Demon Kings): Paraconsistent Physiology via being the ultimate symbol of Alchemy, something revered as perfect, being all and nothing and considered similar to God that does not exist within the idea of right and wrong. Also due to being an existence on par with the Qliphoth which is the ground zero that established the Demon World cosmology by implication along with the inherent dualities therein.
  • Non-Existent Physiology (Type 3-Paradox): He is all and nothing (existence and non-existence) at the same time.
• Qliphoth Tree: Paraconsistent Physiology via simply transcending either dual concepts as it being the originator of all abstract ideas in the cosmology.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Some of the scans are expired. The way to prevent that is to remove all the stuff written after the scan name. When I get to my computer I'll help you with that.

 

[Unoriginal777]

Dualism Explanation​

Devil May Cry as a franchise is commonly revered as one that is entangled with the dualistic themes of light and darkness, good and evil, stability and chaos, and so on. However, upon closer inspection issues of dualism are a bit more deeper in DMC than previously assumed and now, in light of this newfound understanding, I will expound upon it in the following paragraphs. So sit tight with me as we venture deep into the nature of DMC's world.

Before the modern world we know of today, there was only a primordial Darkness and evil, a Demon's inherent nature. In opposition to this, an unimaginably powerful entity known as the Qliphoth (which I'll expand upon later) gave birth to an opposing force when it appended its will upon this primordial darkness. This specific force is later known as Light. This light is associated with the notion of good which is the nature of humans. Later, these two forces were separated by Pluto and formed their own domains in the greater cosmology.

It is important to note that this relationship is "specifically" referred to as a type of duality—meaning that this relationship revolves around two opposing forces as the basis of nature and thus, should be eligible to the wiki's standards for what can be considered a "dual force" given the context here—especially considering that Demons by their very nature are metaphysical entities so it's even more reasonable to consider this duality being fundamental to existence as a whole.

Demons​

Since time immemorial, the only entities that resided the greater cosmology outside of the primordial tree were Demons. These entities could not feel love and the idea of selflessness. They could only live as an abomination of the otherworld—an evil existence entirely with the Demon King Pluto—who was there before Human World was a thing—being described as the "God of Evil". Logically, they should all exist outside of the basic duality that predates the current world and given what the wiki here states, they should rightfully claim non-duality via being only limited to evil side of dual nature.

Argosax and Gods​

There are these unique Gods. These Gods fought against the Demons in a "Great War" but they seem to have lost since then... The thing is that these demons as such do not exist within the "concepts" of right or wrong (symbolizing logical contradiction) and exist in a "strange dimension". It is important to understand that these "Gods" are nothing more than demons themselves, since Itsuno stated that there is no other world apart from the Demonic and the Human and it must be taken into account that Humans themselves praise demons as "Gods". Argosax exists as the most "evil God" of them all, and he is represented as the ideas of the sun and moon combined, something perfect and "transcendent" existence to the world as a whole while also being depicted to violate the laws of gender duality. Lastly, he is also stated to be described as "all-and-nothing" which further solidifies that his nature is unbounded to such dual ideas which is a given considering he is suppose to be this ultimate goal of alchemy.

Furthermore, on the notion of "all-and-nothing" I would like to highlight that this represents a very important issue as it pertains to Argosax and similarly powerful entities at his level. Obviously, nothing refers to a state of non-existence, but the all, however, is likely a reference to Argosax's distinct quality of possessing all Demon abilities and forms across the board. This is of great significance here as demons in both their form and ability have such things determined primarily by their name (concept) which is synonymous with their soul that is their respective "truth" and ultimately their conceptual existence and power which is accepted here. For Argosax—to possess all forms and powers of Demons—inherently is to say that he (Argosax) possesses all Demon names (concepts) simultaneously, representing his nature as the accumulation of everything that exists within the primordial world and yet at the same time be a kind of non-existent entity akin to his rival Void Mundus or something as basic as naturally non-existent, Nightmarish Demons like Sargassos. This is a consistent notion as the Demon World which imposes names on demons by itself are ultimately surpassed by the Demon Kings who outscales the Demon World as a cosmology/system.

Qliphoth Tree​

I'm surprised that no one has decided to make its profile yet. I know we haven't gotten much from it since the lackluster lore focus in DMC5 but it's much deeper then we give it credit for. I kindly request to integrate his profile made by Lightning into the existing pages. As far as real world lore goes, Qliphoth and Sephiroth are two tree-like structures in Abrahamic religion. While Sephiroth represents all the goody-2-shoes stuff we prefer, Qliphoth is the total opposite and is the ultimate symbol of "evil".

In Devil May Cry series, there is no Sephiroth so Qliphoth seemingly covers all the good and evil roles by itself, existing as a tree that shapes the world around on its own. In the artbook, it was stated that Qliphoth "makes Demon World what it is". Now, I understand the sentence is kinda weak in terms of far outright explanation but considering the role of Qliphoth and how Light seemingly "popped up" into Darkness out of nowhere, you could say Qliphoth is the true reason how the cosmology is turned out to be as Demonic as it did which extends all the way to Humans whose blood have Demonic Energy stored in them. In addition, DMC5 has given us more context by saying that Qliphoth is the source of "all life" which includes both Humans and Demons alike. Thus, this makes it all clear that Qliphoth indeed is the bringer of such abstract ideas around regardless if they are good or evil for that matter.

Conclusion​

Here what I believe each one of these elements would receive:

• Demons: Paraconsistent Physiology (Type 1) via preceding the duality of Light and Darkness, existing outside the duality of nature as a result.
• Argosax the Chaos (and other Demon Kings): Paraconsistent Physiology (Type 2) via being the ultimate symbol of Alchemy, something revered as perfect, being all and nothing and considered similar to God that does not exist within the idea of right and wrong. Also due to being an existence on par with the Qliphoth which is the ground zero that established the Demon World cosmology by implication along with the inherent dualities therein.
  • Non-Existent Physiology (Type 3-Paradox): He is all and nothing (existence and non-existence) at the same time.
• Qliphoth Tree: Paraconsistent Physiology (Type 2) via simply transcending either dual concepts as it being the originator of all abstract ideas in the cosmology.

I would say that this represents a strong attempt for Paraconsistency on multiple levels. On the first there is the acknowledgement that Demons preceded the binary of Light and Darkness and as this has an existence prior to the duality of light v darkness. Making them occupants of a state of being outside of that logical binary and thus a strong contender for Paraconsistency type 1.

Moving forward, Argosax is legitimately a post boy for binary relationships which are codified into his makeup as being a combination of binary systems like sun versus moon, male versus female, and the ultimate symbol of alchemy which itself implies a unification of opposing notions rather than parallel notions. Also the all and nothing binary represents a good move for NEP.

Lastly, I'm glad to see the Qliphoth is finally getting the respect it deserves. The fact that it went so long without a page despite literally being the creator of all life in the verse and being sovereign over the Cosmology's on a fundamental level is a shame. Hell, even removing all that it should've still been given the profile simply for making Mundus the power house he is today.

Only issue is that some of the scans are not working fully, but I'm confident that can be fixed. Masterfully done @SuperSonicTL.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Some of the scans are expired. The way to prevent that is to remove all the stuff written after the scan name. When I get to my computer I'll help you with that.

Only issue is that some of the scans are not working fully, but I'm confident that can be fixed. Masterfully done @SuperSonicTL.

Updated. Feel free to point out if something is missed.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I disagree.

Devil May Cry as a franchise is commonly revered as one that is entangled with the dualistic themes of light and darkness, good and evil, stability and chaos, and so on. However, upon closer inspection issues of dualism are a bit more deeper in DMC than previously assumed and now, in light of this newfound understanding, I will expound upon it in the following paragraphs. So sit tight with me as we venture deep into the nature of DMC's world.

Before the modern world we know of today, there was only a primordial Darkness and evil, a Demon's inherent nature. In opposition to this, an unimaginably powerful entity known as the Qliphoth (which I'll expand upon later) gave birth to an opposing force when it appended its will upon this primordial darkness. This specific force is later known as Light. This light is associated with the notion of good which is the nature of humans. Later, these two forces were separated by Pluto and formed their own domains in the greater cosmology.

It is important to note that this relationship is "specifically" referred to as a type of duality—meaning that this relationship revolves around two opposing forces as the basis of nature and thus, should be eligible to the wiki's standards for what can be considered a "dual force" given the context here—especially considering that Demons by their very nature are metaphysical entities so it's even more reasonable to consider this duality being fundamental to existence as a whole.

• Demons: Paraconsistent Physiology (Type 1) via preceding the duality of Light and Darkness, existing outside the duality of nature as a result.

This does not work, because demons fall under one of the two opposing poles of the dichotomy, namely darkness, which means they are literally subject to it. I do not understand why you call them type 1, since to qualify as such they would have to stand above both extremes.

There are these unique Gods. These Gods fought against the Demons in a "Great War" but they seem to have lost since then... The thing is that these demons as such do not exist within the "concepts" of right or wrong (symbolizing logical contradiction) and exist in a "strange dimension".

This is not a logical contradiction whatsoever. Saying that a being is not bound to the concepts of "right" and "wrong" simply means it operates under a moral framework that goes beyond that of humans. That's it.

Argosax exists as the most "evil God" of them all, and he is represented as the ideas of the sun and moon combined, something perfect and "transcendent" existence to the world as a whole while also being depicted to violate the laws of gender duality.

Being an androgynous, sexless entity does not qualify you for Paraconsistent Physiology. You need to show that the character is unbounded by actual cosmological dichotomies; otherwise, literally 90 percent of the wiki would have that ability, and it would not be combat applicable either.

Lastly, he is also stated to be described as "all-and-nothing" which further solidifies that his nature is unbounded to such dual ideas which is a given considering he is suppose to be this ultimate goal of alchemy.

Furthermore, on the notion of "all-and-nothing" I would like to highlight that this represents a very important issue as it pertains to Argosax and similarly powerful entities at his level. Obviously, nothing refers to a state of non-existence, but the all, however, is likely a reference to Argosax's distinct quality of possessing all Demon abilities and forms across the board. This is of great significance here as demons in both their form and ability have such things determined primarily by their name (concept) which is synonymous with their soul that is their respective "truth" and ultimately their conceptual existence and power which is accepted here. For Argosax—to possess all forms and powers of Demons—inherently is to say that he (Argosax) possesses all Demon names (concepts) simultaneously, representing his nature as the accumulation of everything that exists within the primordial world and yet at the same time be a kind of non-existent entity akin to his rival Void Mundus or something as basic as naturally non-existent, Nightmarish Demons like Sargassos. This is a consistent notion as the Demon World which imposes names on demons by itself are ultimately surpassed by the Demon Kings who outscales the Demon World as a cosmology/system.

I genuinely don't see anything here that justifies a type 2. If Argosax is a demon, then he is necessarily bounded by the darkness.

Qliphoth Tree​

I'm surprised that no one has decided to make its profile yet. I know we haven't gotten much from it since the lackluster lore focus in DMC5 but it's much deeper then we give it credit for. I kindly request to integrate his profile made by Lightning into the existing pages. As far as real world lore goes, Qliphoth and Sephiroth are two tree-like structures in Abrahamic religion. While Sephiroth represents all the goody-2-shoes stuff we prefer, Qliphoth is the total opposite and is the ultimate symbol of "evil".

In Devil May Cry series, there is no Sephiroth so Qliphoth seemingly covers all the good and evil roles by itself, existing as a tree that shapes the world around on its own. In the artbook, it was stated that Qliphoth "makes Demon World what it is". Now, I understand the sentence is kinda weak in terms of far outright explanation but considering the role of Qliphoth and how Light seemingly "popped up" into Darkness out of nowhere, you could say Qliphoth is the true reason how the cosmology is turned out to be as Demonic as it did which extends all the way to Humans whose blood have Demonic Energy stored in them. In addition, DMC5 has given us more context by saying that Qliphoth is the source of "all life" which includes both Humans and Demons alike. Thus, this makes it all clear that Qliphoth indeed is the bringer of such abstract ideas around regardless if they are good or evil for that matter.

Same stuff as the demons. This is explicitly bound by the dichotomy of darkness and light.

 

[Unoriginal777]

I disagree.





This does not work, because demons fall under one of the two opposing poles of the dichotomy, namely darkness, which means they are literally subject to it. I do not understand why you call them type 1, since to qualify as such they would have to stand above both extremes.



This is not a logical contradiction whatsoever. Saying that a being is not bound to the concepts of "right" and "wrong" simply means it operates under a moral framework that goes beyond that of humans. That's it.



Being an androgynous, sexless entity does not qualify you for Paraconsistent Physiology. You need to show that the character is unbounded by actual cosmological dichotomies; otherwise, literally 90 percent of the wiki would have that ability, and it would not be combat applicable either.



I genuinely don't see anything here that justifies a type 2. If Argosax is a demon, then he is necessarily bounded by the darkness.



Same stuff as the demons. This is explicitly bound by the dichotomy of darkness and light.

So a few problems here. 1. When talking about the right versus wrong issue they're doing so in a context pertaining to demon gods. Demon gods like Argosax who literally embody dualistic binaries and demonstrate this on screen. For the other gods to have this quality is an easy fix via Occam's where it is no longer an issue of moral framework.

2. You have a big issue. Yes, Argosax is a demon, but he's not one bound by the cosmology and its restraints. On any level. This is signified by how Argosax having all forms and abilities of demons exists in such a manner that he is in the same classification as the DW (or more appropriately the Qliphoth which he scales to) which assigns all possible demon names and inherently their abilities. This in conjunction with how it exists at a level rivaling a character like Mundus who having the power of the Qliphoth which transcends the dualistic framework of light and dark (seeing it is the creator of both) tells us why Argosax despite being demonic is not bound by such constraints. Also how would this not be actual cosmological dichotomies when the dichotomies are bound to the level of reality under what Argosax operates upon.

Funnily I noticed that haven't given any issue to the NEP stuff. Is that to say that you're not against it? I can grant the type 1 argument not working for the average demon though.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

So a few problems here. 1. When talking about the right versus wrong issue they're doing so in a context pertaining to demon gods. Demon gods like Argosax who literally embody dualistic binaries and demonstrate this on screen. For the other gods to have this quality is an easy fix via Occam's where it is no longer an issue of moral framework.

Yeah. About moral decisions. About how gods and demons are not subjected to the human ideas of right and wrong. Since you want to apply ontological parsimony here, it is more ontologically parsimonious to interpret a statement like that using the fewest possible assumptions and relying solely on empirical evidence. Arguing that it is a dichotomy as the wiki defines it presupposes (without evidence) that the entire cosmos is governed by the dual concepts of good and evil in a literal sense rather than just as a metaphor for the struggle between darkness and light, which has not been established whatsoever.

The context of the line is obvious. Let's not try to create stuff out of nowhere just to inflate fictional characters please.

2. You have a big issue. Yes, Argosax is a demon, but he's not one bound by the cosmology and its restraints. On any level.

Prove that he is not bound by the darkness that literally gave origin to all demons. There isn't a single evidence in the thread that proves that. Argosax is just an amalgamation of all the powers and names of all demons in an androgynous "perfect" form.

This is signified by how Argosax having all forms and abilities of demons exists in such a manner that he is in the same classification as the DW (or more appropriately the Qliphoth which he scales to) which assigns all possible demon names and inherently their abilities.

This doesn’t prove that Argosax isn't ontologically bound to the darkness.

This in conjunction with how it exists at a level rivaling a character like Mundus who having the power of the Qliphoth which transcends the dualistic framework of light and dark (seeing it is the creator of both) tells us why Argosax despite being demonic is not bound by such constraints. Also how would this not be actual cosmological dichotomies when the dichotomies are bound to the level of reality under what Argosax operates upon.

The Qliphoth doesn't transcend the duality of light and darkness. You conveniently ignored the part of my message where I say so.

In summary: 0% evidence; 99% yapping; 1% Goku solos

 

[Lycoris4812]

I agree with berny.

 

[Unoriginal777]

Yeah. About moral decisions. About how gods and demons are not subjected to the human ideas of right and wrong. Since you want to apply ontological parsimony here, it is more ontologically parsimonious to interpret a statement like that using the fewest possible assumptions and relying solely on empirical evidence. Arguing that it is a dichotomy as the wiki defines it presupposes (without evidence) that the entire cosmos is governed by the dual concepts of good and evil in a literal sense rather than just as a metaphor for the struggle between darkness and light, which has not been established whatsoever.

The context of the line is obvious. Let's not try to create stuff out of nowhere just to inflate fictional characters please.



Prove that he is not bound by the darkness that literally gave origin to all demons. There isn't a single evidence in the thread that proves that. Argosax is just an amalgamation of all the powers and names of all demons in an androgynous "perfect" form.



This doesn’t prove that Argosax isn't ontologically bound to the darkness.



The Qliphoth doesn't transcend the duality of light and darkness. You conveniently ignored the part of my message where I say so.

In summary: 0% evidence; 99% yapping; 1% Goku solos

Thank you for the response. I'll shoot you another one in the near future. So look forward to that. Though I would like to state that the ragebaiting at the end is a red herring that distracts from the genuine discussion. Please refrain from such. It doesn't help your argument.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Yeah, bro, a harmless joke at the end of my response after I addressed everything you said is totally a red herring, fr

 

[Unoriginal777]

Yeah, bro, a harmless joke at the end of my response after I addressed everything you said is totally a red herring, fr

It's still a useless remark that doesn't contribute to the discussion. Good to avoid those. Though I have a feeling you won't.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Can we have a proper discussion here? I made this thread to navigate how the ever-changing adualism standards work on the wiki as of now. I'll make my reply later down the line since I'm currently busy so please be patient till then.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Wait, is the paraconsistent stuff to do with the primordial chaos that preceded the light and dark? I only guess that because I know the lore.

Although it's unclear whether the primordial chaos was itself just all darkness or if darkness only came into being from the separation. I'd lean towards the former myself, at the moment.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Yeah, bro, a harmless joke at the end of my response after I addressed everything you said is totally a red herring, fr

It's still openly rude, referring to someone's post as "yapping", so it's best you don't do it.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Wait, is the paraconsistent stuff to do with the primordial chaos that preceded the light and dark? I only guess that because I know the lore.

Although it's unclear whether the primordial chaos was itself just all darkness or if darkness only came into being from the separation. I'd lean towards the former myself, at the moment.

Darkness predates Light. Demons are pure embodiment of Darkness and thus, existed before proper duality came to existence. This results in granting them non-duality (currently referred to as paraconsistency) since the duality of Light and Darkness wasn't a thing. Only one fundamental essence existed back then.

I'll discuss Argosax and Qliphoth later when I'm free.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Wait, is the paraconsistent stuff to do with the primordial chaos that preceded the light and dark? I only guess that because I know the lore.

Although it's unclear whether the primordial chaos was itself just all darkness or if darkness only came into being from the separation. I'd lean towards the former myself, at the moment.

Even if we assume that the “primordial chaos” predates that dichotomy (there is no scan in the OP that suggests it), no one would scale, since the arguments in the OP are all related to darkness and to demons. So I would say it is irrelevant to this thread.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Even if we assume that the “primordial chaos” predates that dichotomy (there is no scan in the OP that suggests it), no one would scale, since the arguments in the OP are all related to darkness and to demons. So I would say it is irrelevant to this thread.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Darkness predates Light. Demons are pure embodiment of Darkness and thus, existed before proper duality came to existence. This results in granting them non-duality since the duality of Light and Darkness wasn't a thing. Only one fundamental essence existed back then.

Demons do not transcend the duality because they are literally bound to one of its poles.

If I am an entity born from a world of primordial fire, and after my birth the concept of water arises, placing fire in a dual relation with it, that does not mean I transcend both water and fire; that is literally a non sequitur.

To transcend a duality means to go beyond both aspects and be ontologically unaffected by either.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Okay, this literally confirms my argument. I don't see any mention of a "primordial chaos" that predates light and darkness btw, but it doesn't matter since like I said it doesn't change the thread.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I agree with Excel. Disagree with thread.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Obviously I agree with Bern here

 

[Random-Helper323]

Okay, this literally confirms my argument. I don't see any mention of a "primordial chaos" that predates light and darkness btw, but it doesn't matter since like I said it doesn't change the thread.

Ah, minor correction, it does predates light, clearly. It might itself be the darkness though, so I don't know.

 

[Unoriginal777]

Yeah. About moral decisions. About how gods and demons are not subjected to the human ideas of right and wrong. Since you want to apply ontological parsimony here, it is more ontologically parsimonious to interpret a statement like that using the fewest possible assumptions and relying solely on empirical evidence. Arguing that it is a dichotomy as the wiki defines it presupposes (without evidence) that the entire cosmos is governed by the dual concepts of good and evil in a literal sense rather than just as a metaphor for the struggle between darkness and light, which has not been established whatsoever.

The context of the line is obvious. Let's not try to create stuff out of nowhere just to inflate fictional characters please.



Prove that he is not bound by the darkness that literally gave origin to all demons. There isn't a single evidence in the thread that proves that. Argosax is just an amalgamation of all the powers and names of all demons in an androgynous "perfect" form.



This doesn’t prove that Argosax isn't ontologically bound to the darkness.



The Qliphoth doesn't transcend the duality of light and darkness. You conveniently ignored the part of my message where I say so.

In summary: 0% evidence; 99% yapping; 1% Goku solos

Now to address your comment. Let's do our own breakdown of how the evidence in fact leans into my direction as opposed to yours. Now in a vacuum you'd be right pertaining to the right versus wrong dichotomy only being a reference to how demons don't care about moral constraints. However, there is a catch. Ontological parsimony or better phrased as Occam's Razor can shift the simplest explanation of the evidence of the evidence adds new issues that must be considered in the overall breakdown. One issue you seem to ignore is the nature of demon gods as a category which would include Argosax who is literally based on the idea of dualistic notions on multiple counts. Thus, in light of this evidence it makes less sense for this not to be literally demon gods transcending these notions as a dualistic system. Next I noticed how you ignored that the fundamental nature of demons as an existence is evil or darkness while humanity is light or good. With the Light and Darkness representing two halves of the same coin in the UES of DMC showing they have a delible effect as opposed to just being flowery language as you're proposing. In fact, beyond simply saying that it's easier to assume the language is flowery (which you never give evidence for) you never do confront Sonic's scans on this issue.

On Argosax not being bound by the cosmology, sure: I'll take up your challenge. I mean Argosax literally scales well above the DW cosmology and can destroy it on a whim. Especially since he does all this while being essentially composite Demons on a conceptual level (kinda like the UW functionally speaking) while still surpassing Hell showing he's not bound by the UW in any way shape or form while doing what Hell does but better.

That's the definition of not being bound by its system or constraints seeing as he can rival Mundus who ate the Qliphoth fruit. Ya know. The thing responsible for creating all life and presumably the cosmology they live in on a whim since everything is ultimately created by the Fruit arbitrarily. A notion which tracks given what Sonic says above with other scans pertaining to the Qliphoth such as how it makes the DW what it is on a fundamental level. A level that would include the duality in the cosmology it created. So Argosax simply operating on that level of existence should put him beyond the constraints of the DW by nature ontologically speaking.

So yeah, that sums up everything. And yeah that's it 0 ragebait. All discussion. Like it should be.

 

[Unoriginal777]

Okay, this literally confirms my argument. I don't see any mention of a "primordial chaos" that predates light and darkness btw, but it doesn't matter since like I said it doesn't change the thread.

I mean it kind of says that the world was born in darkness and that darkness was a crucible of chaos and a primordial existence until the light came along. No the PC doesn't predate the darkness, but it does predate the light.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

However, there is a catch. Ontological parsimony or better phrased as Occam's Razor can shift the simplest explanation of the evidence adds new issues that must be considered in the overall breakdown.

Correct, which is mine interpretation of the text.

One issue you seem to ignore is the nature of demon gods as a category which would include Argosax who is literally based on the idea of dualistic notions on multiple counts.

Argosax is the idea of a demon that blends the properties of several demons, which is why it is a “union” of the sun and the moon / of all and nothing, an androgynous figure that possesses all the powers of demons. They are literally telling you outright that it is simply an amalgam of beings bounded by darkness. It has nothing to do with cosmological dualities.

Next I noticed how you ignored that the fundamental nature of demons as an existence is evil or darkness while humanity is light or good.

I didn't ignore it. Quoting myself:

Arguing that it is a dichotomy as the wiki defines it presupposes (without evidence) that the entire cosmos is governed by the dual concepts of good and evil in a literal sense rather than just as a metaphor for the struggle between darkness and light, which has not been established whatsoever.

Saying that demons represent evil and humans represent good has no bearing on Argosax being above “right” and “wrong.” The "right" and "wrong" is subjective and contingent on your own moral framework.

With the Light and Darkness representing two halves of the same coin in the UES of DMC showing they have a delible effect as opposed to just being flowery language as you're proposing. In fact, beyond simply saying that it's easier to assume the language is flowery (which you never give evidence for) you never do confront Sonic's scans on this issue.

I've literally never claimed such thing. I accept that light and darkness is a dichotomy but no one in the OP trascends it. As simple as that (also, I don’t give a s###t about Sonic, if you think the verse is rated incorrectly, just create a thread about it).

On Argosax not being bound by the cosmology, sure. I mean Argosax literally scales well above the DW cosmology and can destroy it on a whim.

Okay, so if I can destroy a table, does that mean I’m ontologically unbounded by the abstract object that defines “tables”? This is simply nonsensical. Argosax is existentially bounded by that dichotomy like every demon.

The thing responsible for creating all life and presumably the cosmology they live in on a whim since everything is ultimately created by the Fruit arbitrarily. A notion which tracks given what Sonic says above with other scans pertaining to the Qliphoth such as how it makes the DW what it is on a fundamental level.

You should prove that the tree predates the darkness.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I mean it kind of says that the world was born in darkness and that darkness was a crucible of chaos and a primordial existence until the light came along. No the PC doesn't predate the darkness, but it does predate the light.

Yeah, well that's not Paraconsistent Physiology.

 

[Abstractions]

On Argosax not being bound by the cosmology, sure: I'll take up your challenge. I mean Argosax literally scales well above the DW cosmology and can destroy it on a whim.

Being able to destroy something doesn't automatically disqualify you from the concepts therein, I do not believe we operate under such notions.

The thing responsible for creating all life and presumably the cosmology they live in on a whim since everything is ultimately created by the Fruit arbitrarily.

Urizen isn't talking about the reality as a whole when he's speaking about the Fruit here, it's about the illusion they are currently inside, he speaks rather clearly to that even in the game dialogue.

 

[Unoriginal777]

Being able to destroy something doesn't automatically disqualify you from the concepts therein, I do not believe we operate under such notions.


Urizen isn't talking about the reality as a whole when he's speaking about the Fruit here, it's about the illusion they are currently inside, he speaks rather clearly to that.

Urizen isn't speaking about just the illusion. You need to pay close attention to his words. He starts by saying that he doesn't care about the story (the setting which the illusion is based upon) or the place they are in atm (the illusion it creates). Then Urizen combines the two factors in one saying "everything is an illusion created by the fruit arbitrarily." If it was just the illusion Urizen wouldn't have included the story the illusion is based upon into the overall context. This isn't crazy either seeing as the tree is the source of all life in the DW+HW cosmology and is what makes the DW what it is by its nature.

 

[Unoriginal777]

Correct, which is mine interpretation of the text.



Argosax is the idea of a demon that blends the properties of several demons, which is why it is a “union” of the sun and the moon / of all and nothing, an androgynous figure that possesses all the powers of demons. They are literally telling you outright that it is simply an amalgam of beings bounded by darkness. It has nothing to do with cosmological dualities.



I didn't ignore it. Quoting myself:



Saying that demons represent evil and humans represent good has no bearing on Argosax being above “right” and “wrong.” The "right" and "wrong" is subjective and contingent on your own moral framework.



I've literally never claimed such thing. I accept that light and darkness is a dichotomy but no one in the OP trascends it. As simple as that (also, I don’t give a s###t about Sonic, if you think the verse is rated incorrectly, just create a thread about it).



Okay, so if I can destroy a table, does that mean I’m ontologically unbounded by the abstract object that defines “tables”? This is simply nonsensical. Argosax is existentially bounded by that dichotomy like every demon.



You should prove that the tree predates the darkness.

I mean the evidence that the tree predates the Darkness is clear. A. The DW is the darkness as the scan you have on the imgur shows. B. The tree makes the DW what it is. That implies precedence. C. The Qliphoth created all life. And D. It created everything arbitrarily. Simple as that. These are all scans you have seen throughout the thread btw.

 

[Abstractions]

Urizen isn't speaking about just the illusion.

The dialogue is connected to one another - he does not care about the story and that all of it is an illusion created by the fruit, what he is after is the power inside it. He is very much clear about his use of words.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

If what Abstraction is saying is true, then I’ll simply maintain my disagreement with everything in the thread.

 

[Unoriginal777]

The dialogue is connected to one another - he does not care about the story and that all of it is an illusion created by the fruit, what he is after is the power inside it. He is very much clear about his use of words.

The dialogue being connected doesn't disprove my claim. I never claimed the dialogue was disconnected. In fact I stated the very opposite in that Urizen is speaking about two things which as you say are the actual real event/story and the illusion he's standing in. He connects the two at the end and concludes that everything is an illusion created by the Qliphoth. He never dials back to just the illusion being a creation if it. You need evidence why "everything" should be condensed to just that give what I just said. And this is ignoring the other details of Cosmological significance the tree plays a part in. Like creating all life in existence and basically fundamentally ordering the DW and by implication the HW by extension (since the HW was born in the DW).

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I was going to add this later but given how the discussion evolved, I think the Qliphoth presents the strongest argument. It’s explicitly implied to be the origin of all life which encompasses both Demon World and the Human World. You know, the Light that appeared later seems to have emerged spontaneously already carrying the life and instinctively resisted the Demon World’s invasion. Moreover, the Qliphoth is described as having shaped the Demon World into what it eventually became. @Abstractions @ExcelsisBerny @Unoriginal777

That already sounds as an indication for transcendence over duality of nature. As for Argosax, I'll reply to it later.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

It’s explicitly implied to be the origin of all life which encompasses both Demon World and the Human World. You know, the Light that appeared later seems to have emerged spontaneously already carrying the life and instinctively resisted the Demon World’s expansion.

At no point is it stated or implied that the birth of life caused the dichotomous split between darkness and light, so the claim that the tree gave rise to all life does not help.

A framework can be created prior to any entities living within it, which is what happens with the demons, since darkness, which represents their world, precedes them.

I see no concrete evidence that the tree predates darkness and light. In fact, I see no evidence that anything, in general, predates that duality.

 

[Random-Helper323]

In all honesty, the reason Urizen doesn't care about the story or the place is because he represents Vergil's desire not to care about any of it. V is the part that cares about that stuff, and Vergil pulled the old plunger on him to create Urizen.

So I don't think we should treat Urizen's statement about illusions as something referring to the whole cosmology. His narrow worldview is kind of his defining trait.

 

[Unoriginal777]

At no point is it stated or implied that the birth of life caused the dichotomous split between darkness and light, so the claim that the tree gave rise to all life does not help.

A framework can be created prior to any entities living within it, which is what happens with the demons, since darkness, which represents their world, precedes them.

I see no concrete evidence that the tree predates darkness and light. In fact, I see no evidence that anything, in general, predates that duality.

You never went against the scans arguing the tree having created the DW+HW. You just harped on what someone else's opinion is pertaining to that which the jury is still out for. Second, do you have evidence that light and darkness existed prior to the DW+HW. Any evidence at all. I haven't seen any as far as I know.

 

[Abstractions]

He concludes that everything is an illusion created by the Qliphoth.

Which is what I am stating, and the conclusion of said statement.

You need evidence why "everything" should be condensed to just that give what I just said.

The onus is not upon me to prove that Urizen isn't speaking in broad strokes instead of referring to the illusion that was just of discussion, I am simply taking him at his word and not ascribing a bunch of extra meaning to the things he's saying.

 

[Unoriginal777]

Which is what I am stating, and the conclusion of said statement.


The onus is not upon me to prove that Urizen isn't speaking in broad strokes instead of referring to the illusion that was just of discussion, I am simply taking him at his word and not ascribing a bunch of extra meaning to the things he's saying.

So you're arguing that the story is unreal according to Urizen because that's the only way to make this say what you're trying to make it say. Even though he implies what happened is real because he remembers those events and shows that he is instead disinterested in them. Rather the statement because of the above should be an assertion of the transient nature of existence in comparison to the might of the fruit/tree which Urizen stated created everything.

The onus is on you because of the whole story tidbit which you keep leaving aside. I am simply taking Urizen at his word instead of detracting from what he's saying.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

You never went against the scans arguing the tree having created the DW+HW. You just harped on what someone else's opinion is pertaining to that which the jury is still out for.

Okay so what? I'm convinced by the in-lore explanation of people who are more knowledgeable about the verse than myself.

Second, do you have evidence that light and darkness existed prior to the DW+HW.

The scans heavily imply that the demon world and the human world are simply names that demons gave to darkness and light.

For example, Earth as a planet predates humans, but obviously in the primitive era it was not called “Earth,” because that name was given later by its inhabitants.

"THE DARKNESS BECAME THE REALM OF DEMONS"

 

[Unoriginal777]

Okay so what? I'm convinced by the in-lore explanation of people who are more knowledgeable about the verse than myself.



The scans heavily imply that the demon world and the human world are simply names that demons gave to darkness and light.

For example, Earth as a planet predates humans, but obviously in the primitive era it was not called “Earth,” because that name was given later by its inhabitants.

"THE DARKNESS BECAME THE REALM OF DEMONS"

So you're conceding that the darkness and light are the DW and HW respectively and thereby one and the same. Therefore, the light/darkness cannot precede the HW/DW.