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good profile now 
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Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1
- Thread starter ZERO7772
- Start date
FantaRin_The_First
Username Only- 4,447
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[Toaru] Misaka-Related Revisions
Hey, hey, fanta here. Would've done this much later, but I was convinced to do this much earlier, so... Plus, I decided to tackle on some other stuff to resolve issues "now-ish" for the sake of my future self when I start pumping out Level 5 profile revamps. 1. Removing Salome + Railgun Scaling...
Yo, finally decided to do the 7-A downgrade after convincing from Noir. Also tackled on some stuff regarding Mikoto so I can progress more smoothly on my Level 5 Profile Revamps, which will come immediately after this CRT is finished- since most of them, sans Accelerator and Misaki, are done.
FantaRin_The_First
Username Only- 4,447
- 2,780
[Toaru] Magician Profile Reworks
Hey, hey, fanta here. Just a bit of a filler CRT before I start work on the Level 5s CRTs but still semi-important cuz these characters have some importance in the scaling and they really need profile revamps. Anyways, let's get to the point. Profile Reworks Stiyl Old | New Changes Catalog...
Decided to rework on more "minor" profiles before making my CRTs for the Level 5s. Namely cuz the "writting" for this CRT has been complete for awhile now and just been chilling in my sandbox, but I got burnt out on writing the stuff for the Level 5s, so... You get this as a "filler" CRT while I take a minor break to recover from burnout, lol.
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inorganic physiology 1[Toaru] Magician Profile Reworks
Hey, hey, fanta here. Just a bit of a filler CRT before I start work on the Level 5s CRTs but still semi-important cuz these characters have some importance in the scaling and they really need profile revamps. Anyways, let's get to the point. Profile Reworks Stiyl Old | New Changes Catalog...vsbattles.com
Decided to rework on more "minor" profiles before making my CRTs for the Level 5s. Namely cuz the "writting" for this CRT has been complete for awhile now and just been chilling in my sandbox, but I got burnt out on writing the stuff for the Level 5s, so... You get this as a "filler" CRT while I take a minor break to recover from burnout, lol.
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wdym verse gonna get downgraded bro
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toaru's 11D rating, for the dimensions teleporters used, is based upon compact dimensions, which don't scale to tier 1.
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Whaaaat. First time hearing about that. So they would be just 2-C or 2-B?
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2-B yeah
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The higher dimensions of To Aru are compactified, or in other words, too small to qualify for tiering.
The links above are evidence of that.
The links above are evidence of that.
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I actually plan to Uno reverse the situation into an upgrade.
I've been waiting for more support but Kamachi just doesn't touch this topic in any manga or the novels.
No, if all my ideas fail the series will be L2C because Toaru doesn't have a multiverse.
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the way curtana works would make no sense if the dimensions are compact so …I guess there’s both compact and non compact in the verse, that’s just the way I see it
So the verse should either be like 1-B to High 1-B or just idk, Low 2-C I guess
There can’t be the high 1-C “in between” anymore
So the verse should either be like 1-B to High 1-B or just idk, Low 2-C I guess
There can’t be the high 1-C “in between” anymore
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For the purposes of tiering Phases the size of the universe may as well be universes.
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Unless our standards have changed, no.
Different Phases aren't different space time continuums.
Also, weren't you part of the "Phases are Planet sized" team? When did your interpretation change?
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?
I was on the "phases are of varying sizes" team. Othinus' copies of the universe are obviously universe-sized. Other phases might not be.
And Phases are different space-time continuums as far as our definitions of what that means go. You can't travel in 3-dimensional directions (or through time) to reach a different phase. Even more, they move around and collide - they behave like they are physically separated spaces. Universes don't have to be proven to be together in a higher-dimensional space to be considered a multiverse. The separation of universes can be of a more metaphysical nature, what's important is just that they are separated. The rest is mostly semantics, not nature.
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page 67
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She created and destroyed them one at a time, that would never be above L2C. If the "other Phases might not be" then it doesn't help.
You don't consider New World to be a Phase?
They are separated spaces but not separated by time, they are not independent spacetime continuums, which I know other series like Bleach have debated to death to actually have their cosmology accepted at multiversal.
What do you mean by "metaphysical separation"?
Also, I've literally read our standards on how to categorize something as a universe, Phases just don't fit it.
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ToAru basically bends over backwards to make sure the cosmology isn't misunderstood. Like even statements of Othinus "making infinite phases" is heavily explained to be just referring to her "infinite hells" she put touma through.
The Cosmology is definitely just low2c, which is unfortunate, but what else can you say
The Cosmology is definitely just low2c, which is unfortunate, but what else can you say
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--------
As the lance was fired with tremendous force, the “happy world” was smashed to pieces as if space itself was being torn apart.
As a fragment of the world approached with the force of a raging wave, it took on the shape of a giant lance. The walls of all the phases were crushed, transformed into a swirl of deadly weapons resembling sharp shards of glass, and approached their pitiful target as if to swallow him whole.
Everything was ripped up.
The black labyrinth, which had used up all of its possibilities, showed itself.
--------
She can destroy all Phases in a single strike.
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That's talking about the religious Phases, which DT doesn't have as universe sized.
The Phases she put Touma through are the ones DT agrees are universe sized, but these never existed simultaneously.
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I recall Kamisato mentioning that there are overlapping phases extending even to the edge of the universe.
I believe this implies the existence of a universe-scale religious phase.
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In a just world, Othinus would be 3-A
series doesn't seem to treat her as infinite like true MGs
series doesn't seem to treat her as infinite like true MGs
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Since that part is from the manga Mental Out, it cannot be used as a basis for the argument.
It is correct that the original author, Kamachi, gives the basic overall plot, but it is the editor and the manga artist who decide on the depiction of the manga.
There is one thing I am curious about: Why does this site listen to people who aren't the author making up settings as they please,
but denies the parts that the author directly mentioned in interviews?
If the Index or Railgun manga depicts something that contradicts the original light novel, would you explicitly choose the manga version over the source material?
I don't understand why you're citing a spin-off rather than the main series as the basis for "compressed dimensions."
If that's the logic you're going with, then I intend to use this statement directly from Kamachi: "Othinus can kill Tangram, who controls all infinite parallel universes, in a single blow." What do you think about that?
Kamachi directly supervised the lore for that spin-off as well. I even have the author's afterword stating that they aligned it with Index lore as much as possible to avoid inconsistencies.
It really feels like you are just cherry-picking depictions to interpret the series however you want. Am I wrong?
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I have stated multiple times that the translation for NT13 is incorrect, and I have personally provided the raw text as evidence. This has likely been verified within this site several times as well.
May I ask why this is being distorted again into the interpretation that the multiverse does not exist?
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I have never claimed that Othinus is weaker than the character who destroys the infinite parallel universe.
And I have no intention of cherry-picking descriptions to interpret the series as I wish.
I simply brought it over because Kamachi Kazuma's name appeared on Wikipedia.
(그리고 님아, 전 님이 여기 여론 바꾸기 포기한줄 알고, 마침 차원론 얘기도 나오길래 장작좀 피워보려고 장난좀친거임. 너무 신경 ㄴㄴ)
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But did Kamachi actually say that Othinus could kill a character who destroys infinite parallel universes? Could you provide a link? If you provide a link, it would prove that the claim that Othinus cannot destroy the multiverse is not valid.
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Could you send the quote?
And anyway, size is part of what we need, but isn't the only thing.
The manga is secondary canon in relation to the novels.
We don't use it as the basis, but unless it explicitly contradicts the novel we use it.
The dimensional stuff and string theory doesn't contradict the novels, indeed, it's very likely that Kamachi got the number eleven from string theory to begin with, manga was just the first time it was confirmed.
Do you have any interview or whatever that confirms Kamachi doesn't write everything in the mangas?
First, interviews aren't denied, you can do a CRT to add stuff that you found in an interview that isn't depicted in the profiles.
The problem with that one is that Tangram is outright non-canon and, as of currently, Othinus is stronger than him regardless of that statement.
Also, wasn't there a statement saying Othinus controls a single rubber band while Tangram controls infinite ones?
Also, power scaling comments from the authors are taken on a case by case basis, it can be used but it still needs support in the series, Death of the Author and all that.
So no, there isn't any cherry picking, but we don't outright discard any source.
Novel (primary canon) > Manga (secondary canon)
Toaru games could be secondary canon, but I think we just never got anything interesting in the games to really warrant a a thread to establish their canonicity.
Kamachi's comments are Word of God and take precendence over comments from anyone else, be it an editor or whoever is actually writing the other manga, but again, Death of the Author applies to all of them.
From what I recall of the discussion and your translation, the conclusion is: the Japanese text is more vague about the multiverse existing or not, but no one says "there is a multiverse with parallel worlds and the MGs can control them".
But if you could send the raws and your translation again, I'd be grateful.
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Judging by the korea in your username, I'm assuming you're Korean, so I'll just give you the link in Korean.
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If you search for it, you'll find it, but let's take a look anyway.
I am not denying the fundamental lore that the 11 dimensions are based on String Theory.
My point is that you cannot use the Mental Out manga—specifically that "ant analogy" depicting them as compressed dimensions—as valid evidence.
This is because when you compare it to how Curtana's dimensions are depicted in the main series, they are not compressed dimensions.
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I've brought it over as the original text. For the translation, you might want to ask Piamma, who knows Japanese.
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Or both of them exist simultaneously and are different from one another
We never got Curtana and Teleporters interacting directly, best we have is Accel, who is able to reflect teleported objects and can't be teleported himself iirc, and he failed at reflecting Curtana even with Clonoth support.
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Bro, at least give me the JS06 translation, I can't do anything with that one.
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Also, what does that Twitter post say? C'mon guys, not everyone here knows Japanese, wtf.
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This reference comes from Volume 13. Since Piamma claimed the translation of Volume 13 was incorrect, I brought the original text—just in case Piamma's claim is true, and since we happen to have someone here who can translate Japanese.
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「……、できない。できっこない。だって、並行世界というのは――」「そう、釘を打ったパチンコ台にゴム紐を掛けるようなもので、結局一本線。並行する世界が無限にある訳じゃない。でも同時に、世界はゴム紐なのさ。時間や空間みたいに伸縮する。ぼく達の知る世界は意外と無駄が多くてね。六〇コマのフィルムを一〇コマしか使っていないようなもの。余ったコマを二、三借りて別の映像をサブリミナルみたいに差し込んでも、誰も気づかない。だって、願っただろう？ 絶対に叶わないと分かっていても、それでも願ってしまっただろう、『魔神』ども。宇宙の果ても重なる位相も調べ尽くして、もう新しいものなんか何もないと分かってしまって。
"..., You can't. That's impossible. Because, parallel worlds are—"
"Right, it is like stretching a rubber band across a pachinko board filled with nails; in the end, it is just a single line.
It doesn't mean that parallel worlds exist infinitely.
But at the same time, the world is a rubber band. It expands and contracts just like time and space. The world we know is surprisingly full of waste. It is like using only 10 frames of a 60-frame film. Even if you borrow two or three of those spare frames and insert a different image like a subliminal message, no one would notice. After all, you wished for it, didn't you? Even though you knew it would absolutely never come true, you still wished for it, didn't you, 'Magic Gods'? You explored the ends of the universe and the overlapping phases, only to realize there was nothing new left."
また後者においては、学園都市の調査班が作成したレポート内で「並行世界の存在を認めなければブルーストーカーを説明できない」と 記述されており、レポートでは「紐の表面に対する裏面があるのではないか」「紐は無数の糸の集合体でで出来ているのではないか」等と推測されていた
Regarding the latter, a report created by the Academy City investigation team stated that "the Blue Stalker cannot be explained without acknowledging the existence of parallel worlds." The report further speculated, "Does the string have a reverse side to its surface?" or "Is the string actually composed of a collection of countless threads?"
Target Investigation Report: Blue Stalker.
One of the theories proposed by the Board is parallel worlds, but this cannot be explained by our primary theory that history acts like a rubber band. The Rubber Band Theory posits that there is only one world, and various parallel worlds are merely created by stretching and turning at specific points.
It is similar to saying that history is singular and can be freely manipulated, much like how a rubber band threaded through nails on a pinball or pachinko machine forms a single path even as it bends around the nails in all directions. On the other hand, to explain the Blue Stalker, we require a theory where multiple worlds literally exist parallel to each other.
While the Rubber Band Theory maintains that history exists as a single line, if we view that history as a flattened rubber band, it might actually consist of countless threads bundled together. Or, perhaps it has a reverse side, much like a storage tape.
That is enough explanation regarding theory and philosophy; the point is that the Blue Stalker transcends all of that.
The concept of a "single string" doesn't mean that only one world exists in isolation.
It means there is only one original world, and various parallel worlds are continuously generated as branches based on specific events or divergence points.
You guys seem to be failing to grasp this fundamental lore.
In contrast, the general "Multiverse" theory posits that multiple worlds literally exist parallel to each other; that is why I said the two concepts are different.
** regarding the quote: "It doesn't mean that parallel worlds exist infinitely."**
This simply means they aren't infinite because the events or branching points themselves cannot be infinite.
For instance, take the probability of Saten suddenly awakening as a Magic God. Since that possibility is effectively zero to begin with, a world like that simply cannot exist, right?
This logic is explained exactly the same way in the Virtual-On crossover, specifically regarding how Othinus can crush Tangram:
"If one has the power to freely manipulate all parallel worlds—the possibilities of 'If'—it certainly appears as though they can grant any wish. However, what is stocked within the expanded parallel worlds are merely the possibilities of 'If.' Regardless of whether a wish is granted on the spot or not, an 'If' where you become rich simply does not branch out if you do not put in the effort."
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I apologize for that part.
But you have to understand, that Railgun editor often makes absurd claims via anonymous Q&As (Marshmallow). He has said things like Uiharu could defeat the #1 and #2 Level 5s, or that Mugino would be Magic God-tier if she reached a 0-dimensional singularity.
My point is: since the person in charge ignores the original author and lacks credibility, any specific technical details found in those manga should be disregarded unless they are properly established in the main series.
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The reason Accelerator can reflect 11th-dimensional teleportation but cannot reflect Curtana is simply because the very dimensions where his vector shield exists are being sliced through entirely.
As you mentioned, there is a possibility that the two concepts are different. Therefore, you still cannot apply that dimensional scaling to the entire series based solely on the depiction of compressed dimensions in Mental Out.
Although, considering that Curtana's description adopts Euclidean geometric dimensions, the possibility of it being compressed is highly unlikely.
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"At first, I thought I had to build a world that adhered strictly to the Virtual-On worldview (and the more I did, the more material I found to use). But when Mr. Watari saw the plot I came up with, he told me to 'break it in half' and infuse more of my own style into it. I don't know how to describe how I felt at that moment, but I was truly shocked and realized that this project was different from my usual work."
This is from the afterword of the Index x Virtual-On collaboration.
Kamachi initially tried to build the setting based on Virtual-On lore, but the Virtual-On side actually requested him to include more of Kamachi's own settings, and he revised it accordingly.
Therefore, my point is this: While Tangram may be an irregular existence in this context as you said, the fundamental Cosmology, lore, size, and power scaling depicted are fully valid and applicable.
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@XDragnoir
link
Investigation Report on Target: Blue Stalker.
Name: Unknown. Estimated Sex: Male. Estimated Age: 25. Estimated Blood Type: A. Nationality/Origin: Unknown. Education/Job History: Unknown.
All of the estimated entries are based on witness information and acquired samples, but we were unable to identify a clear individual from the genetic information. It was less like something was interfering with our analysis and more like there was some ambiguity in the genetic information itself. We are continuing the analysis, but I unfortunately must report that it will be difficult to ensure any results.
My honest impression is that there are no records whatsoever of the target individual. This is true of electronic information as well as analog media such as paper and microfilm. It is hard to imagine any normal means of concealing one’s information so thoroughly.
He may not be hiding the information. As we feared, the information may never have existed in the first place.
There are a few theories concerning how to create something from nothing, but this appears to be different from a phenomenon like Kazakiri Hyouka. (As a side note, that example seems to apply better to Furashina Ririn. For details, refer to the report on her.)
The Blue Stalker uses technology from a system entirely different from ours and has widely permeated Academy City’s center stage via Virtual-On. (We made a few different attempts to artificially end that trend, but they all ended in failure. For details, refer to the report on that issue.) We doubt all of this popped up overnight by coincidence, so the Blue Stalker must have been involved in some way.
One of the theories proposed by the Board of Directors is a parallel world, but this cannot be explained using our leading theory in which history acts like a rubber string.
The rubber string theory states that there is only one world and various parallel worlds are newly created when an alternate turn is taken at a branch. We picture it like placing pegs on a pinball or pachinko machine and passing the rubber string across the board so that it forms a single path even as the pegs bend it every which way, so it is much more like saying there is only one history and that it can be freely manipulated.
On the other hand, explaining the Blue Stalker requires a theory in which there are multiple worlds that exist literally parallel to each other.
The rubber string theory exists along a single line of history, but if we view that history as a flat rubber string, perhaps there is actually a bundle of countless strings. Or perhaps there is a reverse side to it like a storage tape.
That is enough discussion of theories and philosophy for now, but the point is that the Blue Stalker surpasses all of that.
He comes from a world where what we call Virtual-On is perfectly normal.
link
Investigation Report on Target: Blue Stalker.
Name: Unknown. Estimated Sex: Male. Estimated Age: 25. Estimated Blood Type: A. Nationality/Origin: Unknown. Education/Job History: Unknown.
All of the estimated entries are based on witness information and acquired samples, but we were unable to identify a clear individual from the genetic information. It was less like something was interfering with our analysis and more like there was some ambiguity in the genetic information itself. We are continuing the analysis, but I unfortunately must report that it will be difficult to ensure any results.
My honest impression is that there are no records whatsoever of the target individual. This is true of electronic information as well as analog media such as paper and microfilm. It is hard to imagine any normal means of concealing one’s information so thoroughly.
He may not be hiding the information. As we feared, the information may never have existed in the first place.
There are a few theories concerning how to create something from nothing, but this appears to be different from a phenomenon like Kazakiri Hyouka. (As a side note, that example seems to apply better to Furashina Ririn. For details, refer to the report on her.)
The Blue Stalker uses technology from a system entirely different from ours and has widely permeated Academy City’s center stage via Virtual-On. (We made a few different attempts to artificially end that trend, but they all ended in failure. For details, refer to the report on that issue.) We doubt all of this popped up overnight by coincidence, so the Blue Stalker must have been involved in some way.
One of the theories proposed by the Board of Directors is a parallel world, but this cannot be explained using our leading theory in which history acts like a rubber string.
The rubber string theory states that there is only one world and various parallel worlds are newly created when an alternate turn is taken at a branch. We picture it like placing pegs on a pinball or pachinko machine and passing the rubber string across the board so that it forms a single path even as the pegs bend it every which way, so it is much more like saying there is only one history and that it can be freely manipulated.
On the other hand, explaining the Blue Stalker requires a theory in which there are multiple worlds that exist literally parallel to each other.
The rubber string theory exists along a single line of history, but if we view that history as a flat rubber string, perhaps there is actually a bundle of countless strings. Or perhaps there is a reverse side to it like a storage tape.
That is enough discussion of theories and philosophy for now, but the point is that the Blue Stalker surpasses all of that.
He comes from a world where what we call Virtual-On is perfectly normal.
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Here is one approach I’ve considered:
The baseline physical world already encompasses various physical and mathematical laws—such as 11-dimensional, String Theory and Hilbert Space theory—along with the Many-Worlds Interpretation or Parallel Universe theory. My idea is that Alice utilizes these quantum theories as the very laws of Wonderland to expand the physical world itself.
Even if that direct expansion doesn't apply, we still have the structure of the "Emanation World," which contains the physical world
On top of that, there is the additional expansion into the "Hidden Phase" which transcends the concepts of dimensions, space, and time.
These are the upgrade paths I have in mind, but what direction do you envision for further upgrades?
If you let me know your thoughts, I can provide the necessary source excerpts in their original raw text.
