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Hello. As said already in the Prelude, we begin with the actual series of big revisions. This will mainly take care of the other stats of the Non-God Tiers, as while the Prelude gave the main basis, the rest is still worthy of a discussion.
However, the Key has to be renamed as "Omega Flowey" just like when the profile was first made here. The reason is that in the 10th anniversary stream, both Everdread (the guy who worked on the boss) and Toby Fox himself reffer to it as Omega and not Photoshop. That's all.
Now, y'all will be saying: "But Strym, how can SANS be High 8-C, he has only 1 ATK and DEF
!"
Right now, we're treating pretty much every statistic is downscaling to some degree to the High 8-C feats, mainly off damage scaling as noted in the verse page, except for 0 and 1 which however are still 9-A.
However, I have found some more evidence to why 0 and 1 actually can also join the "At most High 8-C" gang.
Beginning with the first one, here we have some characters that are known to have 0 DEF in-game who can take hits from characters with higher stats without exploding:
In the new Sans fight, it has been made explicit that Sans can choose to not inflict any damage with his attacks by holding back, and this is consistent with the fact that Papyrus is able to control damage enough to not kill you if you're at 1 HP even if you already start the fight like that.
Why is this relevant? Well, it's because of the fact that, according to the new updated blog for all the CHECK Stats I made (which contains also the stuff from the 10th anniversary), monsters all grow gradually in power the more you progress the same, as shown by the minimum and maximum ATK of the monsters that are neither bosses nor mini-bosses:
What does this mean? That Sans and a LV 1 Frisk with 0 ATK/DEF should be upgraded also to "At most High 8-C", and this also goes to all monsters with 0 ATK/DEF (those being Moldsmal, Whimsun, Shyren, Vulkin, Dummy, and Glad Dummy).
We know that New Home is a large city that also contains half of the Underground's population (source), something that is supported by visuals of it being a city filled of multiple tall buildings that get lost in the horizon and this NPC implying that given that the place is becoming overpopulated, some are moving to live at Snowdin.
Considering that the minimal population for a city of such importance is 10'000, and that is only half the of the full population, that'd be 20'000 monsters in total for a minimum.
If we multiply that for 2.42 Tons (aka the High 8-C value everyone would scale from), then we have 48400 Tons, or 7-C.
This would affect Asriel's second key, Humanity, Underground and Human SOULs.
The main reason is them being able to deal minimal damage to him (which would make them Low 2-C), but that does not work, as other than the fact that Omega Flowey was heavily holding back and could one shot them at any time (and Toby Fox confirmed that Flowey decreases the damage on purpose when Frisk's HP is low, and that the point of the battle is making us feel completely helpless against him), the same Frisk could not damage Mettaton whatsoever due to his fat 255 DEF.
I think it's clear that Neutral Frisk cannot scale to Omega Flowey nontheless, but that is not the point. The point is that nothing ever hinted that Frisk got a DT increase, compared to say, Asgore or Asriel, as these are pretty explicit instead, also because nothing would've changed whether Frisk was 7-C or High 8-C+ against him.
Meaning that we can do this for them this about the tiering:
"Varies with Determination; High 8-C, up to at least High 8-C+, potentially 7-C with Regular Determination. 2-B with Peak Determination"
With High 8-C being anywhere from their 0 DEF to scaling from people like Undyne, Mettaton EX, and the new exclusive bosses of the 10th anniversary stream, Mr. Sunshine and Abberant (these guys have 68 ATK/68 DEF and 40 ATK/70 DEF, and Frisk can harm and take blows from them too), and High 8-C+ comes from Asgore and Undyne the Undying which are already on their profile.
This also removes a lot of fluff from their AP justification, as stuff like "Great" and "Immense" is basically the same in terms of semantics, never understood this split myself.
Potentially 7-C comes from how we currently treat both the Human SOULs and Humanity as such given that they still have this power within their SOULs, and I don't think Frisk should be any different here.
Also people can try making profiles for Mr. Sunshine and Abberrant here, given that they'll be new scaling points after all (as they also put the new ceiling of 2.42 Tons scaling to 70 in terms of CHECK Stats)
Knight Knight meteor shower: It should use only one meteor instead of them all, given that Frisk takes damage from one while being able to harm Knight Knight back, and we use a single object for scaling like with Mettaton's legs or Sans' bones. Aka the feat should go back to 9-A.
Mettaton destroying a wall: If you see the feat closely, he "bashes" on the door 7 times yes, and destroys with an apparent 8th blow. But there are some problems in assuming he needed 8 punches to do the feat:
About the new feats, we have these:
Photoshop Flowey? Are you sure?
For years we've called that form "Photoshop Flowey" as that has been the closest thing to a canon name given how "Photoshop" and "Flowey" names were close in the credits.However, the Key has to be renamed as "Omega Flowey" just like when the profile was first made here. The reason is that in the 10th anniversary stream, both Everdread (the guy who worked on the boss) and Toby Fox himself reffer to it as Omega and not Photoshop. That's all.
Everyone is High 8-C
You read it right, including the ONE AND ONLY (1 damage):Now, y'all will be saying: "But Strym, how can SANS be High 8-C, he has only 1 ATK and DEF
!"Right now, we're treating pretty much every statistic is downscaling to some degree to the High 8-C feats, mainly off damage scaling as noted in the verse page, except for 0 and 1 which however are still 9-A.
However, I have found some more evidence to why 0 and 1 actually can also join the "At most High 8-C" gang.
Beginning with the first one, here we have some characters that are known to have 0 DEF in-game who can take hits from characters with higher stats without exploding:
- Moldsmal: 2 hits while even being yellow, where a monster is at its most vulnerable
- Shyren: 3 hits
- A start of the game Frisk with no equipment and 0 DEF can barely survive an attack from Flowey
In the new Sans fight, it has been made explicit that Sans can choose to not inflict any damage with his attacks by holding back, and this is consistent with the fact that Papyrus is able to control damage enough to not kill you if you're at 1 HP even if you already start the fight like that.
Why is this relevant? Well, it's because of the fact that, according to the new updated blog for all the CHECK Stats I made (which contains also the stuff from the 10th anniversary), monsters all grow gradually in power the more you progress the same, as shown by the minimum and maximum ATK of the monsters that are neither bosses nor mini-bosses:
- Ruins: 0 to 7
- Snowdin: 11 to 16
- Waterfall: 18 to 24
- Hotland: 25 to 29
- CORE: 29 to 36
What does this mean? That Sans and a LV 1 Frisk with 0 ATK/DEF should be upgraded also to "At most High 8-C", and this also goes to all monsters with 0 ATK/DEF (those being Moldsmal, Whimsun, Shyren, Vulkin, Dummy, and Glad Dummy).
The Human SOUL Scaling
Basically, ever since the Predluce and the scaling modifications, the Peak Human SOUL scaling is obviously outdated, so here's a way to fix it (credits to this dead thread for some of the sources):We know that New Home is a large city that also contains half of the Underground's population (source), something that is supported by visuals of it being a city filled of multiple tall buildings that get lost in the horizon and this NPC implying that given that the place is becoming overpopulated, some are moving to live at Snowdin.
Considering that the minimal population for a city of such importance is 10'000, and that is only half the of the full population, that'd be 20'000 monsters in total for a minimum.
If we multiply that for 2.42 Tons (aka the High 8-C value everyone would scale from), then we have 48400 Tons, or 7-C.
This would affect Asriel's second key, Humanity, Underground and Human SOULs.
Frisk's new scaling
I didn't forget Frisk, lads. Just that them ever using said 7-C power against Omega Flowey is pretty vibes-based and not based on anything really concrete.The main reason is them being able to deal minimal damage to him (which would make them Low 2-C), but that does not work, as other than the fact that Omega Flowey was heavily holding back and could one shot them at any time (and Toby Fox confirmed that Flowey decreases the damage on purpose when Frisk's HP is low, and that the point of the battle is making us feel completely helpless against him), the same Frisk could not damage Mettaton whatsoever due to his fat 255 DEF.
I think it's clear that Neutral Frisk cannot scale to Omega Flowey nontheless, but that is not the point. The point is that nothing ever hinted that Frisk got a DT increase, compared to say, Asgore or Asriel, as these are pretty explicit instead, also because nothing would've changed whether Frisk was 7-C or High 8-C+ against him.
Meaning that we can do this for them this about the tiering:
"Varies with Determination; High 8-C, up to at least High 8-C+, potentially 7-C with Regular Determination. 2-B with Peak Determination"
With High 8-C being anywhere from their 0 DEF to scaling from people like Undyne, Mettaton EX, and the new exclusive bosses of the 10th anniversary stream, Mr. Sunshine and Abberant (these guys have 68 ATK/68 DEF and 40 ATK/70 DEF, and Frisk can harm and take blows from them too), and High 8-C+ comes from Asgore and Undyne the Undying which are already on their profile.
This also removes a lot of fluff from their AP justification, as stuff like "Great" and "Immense" is basically the same in terms of semantics, never understood this split myself.
Potentially 7-C comes from how we currently treat both the Human SOULs and Humanity as such given that they still have this power within their SOULs, and I don't think Frisk should be any different here.
Also people can try making profiles for Mr. Sunshine and Abberrant here, given that they'll be new scaling points after all (as they also put the new ceiling of 2.42 Tons scaling to 70 in terms of CHECK Stats)
The new LS scaling
I think that the LS ratings are a bit out of place, so I'll simply use ATK as a way to get these, also basing on accepted calcs:- -12: Unknown (Snowdrake's Mother is the absolutely weakest character in the entire game, she cannot scale to anything in that regard)
- 0 to 11: Peak Human (Based on 0 ATK Frisk being able to push a big rock)
- 12 to 19: Class 5 (Based on the Ice Dog feat, and the Royal Guards like Lesser Dog, who is the weakest and has 12 ATK, is described as the elite military group, thus being obviously at least comparable to it)
- 20 and above: Class M (For scaling from Papyrus, who is described as "really strong" from Undyne, a character who bases her strength on lifting as well as mentioned here, and Undyne is stronger than Mettaton EX who did this)
Fixing and adding some calcs?
2 calcs have some issues:Knight Knight meteor shower: It should use only one meteor instead of them all, given that Frisk takes damage from one while being able to harm Knight Knight back, and we use a single object for scaling like with Mettaton's legs or Sans' bones. Aka the feat should go back to 9-A.
Mettaton destroying a wall: If you see the feat closely, he "bashes" on the door 7 times yes, and destroys with an apparent 8th blow. But there are some problems in assuming he needed 8 punches to do the feat:
- Isn't weird that a wall isn't damaged at least a bit from the other 7 punches if each of these punches was 99586464.45 Joules in power? If we take the volume of the destroyed area (796691.71556 cm^3), and multiply it by the fragmentation value of 208 J/cm^3 which is accepted on the site, we get 165711876.8 Joules, which is only x1.664 higher than the feat's result. It makes no sense for such a gap to not leave any crack on the wall at all.
- The sounds are different! It only uses the "stomping" sound 7 times, but then uses the "attack" sound (the one that triggers when Frisk attacks also) at the 8th.
About the new feats, we have these:
- This accepted feat for Frisk no-selling a bomb that totally pulverized a tree that got at 0.1 Tons or 9-A (would be a supportive feat for their Minimal Determination)
- Sans pushing Frisk with a pretty fast truck (still has to be calculated. I think we can simply scale the truck to Sans instead of the SOUL for obvious reasons. Also the KE of the thing would scale to Sans due to it still not damaging Frisk).
- Mettaton shaking the entire lab (still has to be calculated. I mean, I found a method to calc this, just was too lazy to apply it yet. Can still be discussed and managed here ofc).
TLDR
- Photoshop Flowey gets renamed to Omega Flowey
- Everyone from -12 to 1 ATK/DEF will become "At most High 8-C"
- Frisk and LS scaling in general becomes more refined
- Human SOULs scaling gets updated
- Some calcs get added/revised
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