VERY fast tf2 going at incredible hihg speed

[Rex_Eckles]

It's weird but not that inconsistent.

Even if we consider that case of it being held back when launching the projectiles, it is completely WORSE, given that you are saying that the Pomson bullets than that.

So yeah, I don't think the verse is faster than Supersonic speeds normally, sorry.

I mean, the consistency of speed in TF2 depends on if we look at it from in-verse speed statements or from extrapolating real-world science from statements.

 

[TheGatememer]

Disagree.

Glass bulbs from The Wrap Assassin are far faster than Pomson 6000, and the projectiles just moves at 90 mph.

Even Baseball zips are treated as something, which moves at... mach 1.

Also a boat moving at mach 12 is impressive too.

None of these are valid anti-feats. You're taking the lowest possible speed feats, and trying to use them as anti-feats, when we have showings of the mercs performing far better speed feats. (Going by your logic, we'd have arrows slower than 90 mph, when even medieval longbows exceed that rating, and RPG-7 rockets even slower than that, given that the Wrap Assassin Bulb moves faster than both of those). What you're suggesting (intentional or not) is that we downgrade the mercenaries to have at most, athletic human reactions, given that you're implying that 90 mph projectiles are more than capable of tagging the mercenaries.

That's not to mention that your first two scans even contradict each other. The first scan claims that the Wrap Assassin Bulb moves at just 90 mph, while the second scan claims that Baseballs move at mach 1, when it's shown they move at the exact same speed.

Also, these scans do nothing to disprove Pomson 6000 firing real light, or the Righteous Bison being a particle smasher (ie, firing Rel+ projectiles). By showing that stuff like the Bulbs/Baseballs move faster than the Pomson's beams, ironically enough, all you're just showing that they move at FTL speeds via upscaling from the Pomson/Bison, should this thread be accepted.

 

[TheGatememer]

Wait wouldn't the fact the descriptions are fan made and meant be humorous be reasoning to disqualify the wrap assassin statement too?

The Cross-Comm Express was made by Valve, so the description isn't fan-made.

 

[AmonInChains]

You're taking the lowest possible speed feats

They are given values, literally the only values that the verse explicitly gives unless you prove otherwise.

(Going by your logic, we'd have arrows slower than 90 mph, when even medieval longbows exceed that rating, and RPG-7 rockets even slower than that, given that the Wrap Assassin Bulb moves faster than both of those)

We accept that the arrows go at higher speeds than they normally do if the verse is consistent with it, there's no problem with it being slower than normal if the verse itself clarifies it explictly, we don't only upscale things to the higher value.

What you're suggesting (intentional or not)

I don't plan anything tbh.

That's not to mention that your first two scans even contradict each other. The first scan claims that the Wrap Assassin Bulb moves at just 90 mph, while the second scan claims that Baseballs move at mach 1, when it's shown they move at the exact same speed.

It is the maximum speed that the game supports, things cannot be rendered faster than 3,000 hu/s, otherwise the game would tend to crash. If the Pomson were so fast, his speed should be at least the same as Wrap Assassin projectiles & Baseball's hu/s, but it is not, it is twice as slow.

Also, these scans do nothing to disprove Pomson 6000 firing real light, or the Righteous Bison being a particle smasher (ie, firing Rel+ projectiles).

If the assumptions are wrong and do not show a consistent value the other projectiles should not be considered.

By showing that stuff like the Bulbs/Baseballs move faster than the Pomson's beams, ironically enough, all you're just showing that they move at FTL speeds via upscaling from the Pomson/Bison, should this thread be accepted.

You are literally creating a false cause here lmao. Beams don't scale because the speed is shown to be slower than Wrap Assassin, and therefore the beams are slower than 90 kph. And direct mentions > assumptions; the only direct mention is Cross-Common, which has already been rejected over the years on the wikia.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

direct mentions > assumptions

So far, we only have three, all of which contradict each other.

90 mph vs mach 1 vs speed of light

 

[AmonInChains]

So far, we only have three, all of which contradict each other.

90 mph vs mach 1 vs speed of light

90 mph & Mach 1 doesn't contradict themselves.

It is the maximum speed that the game supports, things cannot be rendered faster than 3,000 hu/s, otherwise the game would tend to crash. If the Pomson were so fast, his speed should be at least the same as Wrap Assassin projectiles & Baseball's hu/s, but it is not, it is twice as slow.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

90 mph & Mach 1 doesn't contradict themselves.

They absolutely do, the Wrap Assasin travels faster than Scout, unless 90 mph is faster than sound?

 

[AmonInChains]

They absolutely do, the Wrap Assasin travels faster than Scout, unless 90 mph is faster than sound?

Scout has Peak Human Movement speed tho.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Scout has Peak Human Movement speed tho.

But the Mach 1 statement refers to Scout's movement speed, that's what we were talking about.

 

[AmonInChains]

But the Mach 1 statement refers to Scout's movement speed, that's what we were talking about.

I don't see where is referring to Scout's movement speed, it is just refers to baseballs zip speed.

Dive, duck, and weave your way across the various battlefields as baseballs zip through the sky at Mach one, but don't count yourself out just yet.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I don't see where is referring to Scout's movement speed, it is just refers to baseballs zip speed.

Oh wait, sorry, I thought you were talking about this.

Also, doesn't the Sandman's baseball move at similar speeds to the Wrap Assasin?

 

[AmonInChains]

Also, doesn't the Sandman's baseball move at similar speeds to the Wrap Assasin?

It is the maximum speed that the game supports, things cannot be rendered faster than 3,000 hu/s, otherwise the game would tend to crash. If the Pomson were so fast, his speed should be at least the same as Wrap Assassin projectiles & Baseball's hu/s, but it is not, it is twice as slow.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I'm afraid that also proves nothing, as it still contradicts the speed of baseballs, Scout's speed of sound cosmetic, and all of Soldier's rockets.

 

[AmonInChains]

We accept that the arrows go at higher speeds than they normally do if the verse is consistent with it, there's no problem with it being slower than normal if the verse itself clarifies it explictly, we don't only upscale things to the higher value.

It is the maximum speed that the game supports, things cannot be rendered faster than 3,000 hu/s, otherwise the game would tend to crash. If the Pomson were so fast, his speed should be at least the same as Wrap Assassin projectiles & Baseball's hu/s, but it is not, it is twice as slow.

Yeah, this is getting circular. I'm just going to wait for the Staff's evaluation atp guys.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Yeah, this is getting circular. I'm just going to wait for the Staff's evaluation atp guys.

We still have three contradictory in-verse values (reminder, this is Scout's Mach 1 statement)

 

[TheGatememer]

They are given values, literally the only values that the verse explicitly gives unless you prove otherwise.

Ok? Just because they're given values, doesn't mean that they're correct, when we have feats that suggest that they scale higher than what is stated. This is no different to trying to cap Saxton Hale's AP to Wall Level just because his punch has a "given value" 2751 PSI, when he obviously has feats higher than that. Or (insert literally any other character in fiction who has higher feats than what have been stated to be their "given value" for their strength, speed, or otherwise)

We accept that the arrows go at higher speeds than they normally do if the verse is consistent with it, there's no problem with it being slower than normal if the verse itself clarifies it explictly, we don't only upscale things to the higher value.

And how is this case any different to what we are currently discussing? Arrows in Clash of Clans aren't stated to be Supersonic; They are Supersonic because they scale to Cannonballs (And notice how the Arrows scale to Supersonic, rather than downgrading the latter to Subsonic, the latter of which is akin to what you are trying to argue), the same way that any projectiles in TF2 would scale to the Pomson 6000's projectiles.

It is the maximum speed that the game supports, things cannot be rendered faster than 3,000 hu/s, otherwise the game would tend to crash.
If the Pomson were so fast, his speed should be at least the same as Wrap Assassin projectiles & Baseball's hu/s, but it is not, it is twice as slow.

And how does that solve any issue you have with the Pomson 6000's speed? As in, how would it going the same speed as a supposedly 90 MPH projectile solve any possible issues you have with it scaling to light speed?

If the assumptions are wrong and do not show a consistent value the other projectiles should not be considered.

They're pretty blatantly stated to fire actual light, ie, SoL projectiles, so the "assumptions" aren't wrong; The "given values" are.

You are literally creating a false cause here lmao. Beams don't scale because the speed is shown to be slower than Wrap Assassin, and therefore the beams are slower than 90 kph. And direct mentions > assumptions; the only direct mention is Cross-Common, which has already been rejected over the years on the wikia.

Alright, I'm just going to ask you outright, before I entertain this further: Do you believe the verse caps at Athletic reaction speeds?

 

[AmonInChains]

This is no different to trying to cap Saxton Hale's AP to Wall Level just because his punch has a "given value" 2751 PSI, when he obviously has feats higher than that.

Case by case? If the verse consistently shows higher values, it would be taken into account. In this case, you have three explicit anti-feats that Mach speeds are significant, against, well, a statement that has been rejected in the forum, and two assumptions that they move at the speed of light, which, if not consistent in the verse, are not taken into account.

And how is this case any different to what we are currently discussing? Arrows in Clash of Clans aren't stated to be Supersonic; They are Supersonic because they scale to Cannonballs (And notice how the Arrows scale to Supersonic, rather than downgrading the latter to Subsonic, the latter of which is akin to what you are trying to argue), the same way that any projectiles in TF2 would scale to the Pomson 6000's projectiles

However, this is exactly my point? Arrows have speeds that scale to the Cannonball, while normal arrows have subsonic speeds. They scale because they're capable of tagging Barbarians: similarly, arrows here are different, as they're limited by the speed that speeds lower than the Wrap Assassin have. We don't just scale to the highest, I want to remember that, we scale to whatever is consistent and is supported by the material.

And how does that solve any issue you have with the Pomson 6000's speed? As in, how would it going the same speed as a supposedly 90 MPH projectile solve any possible issues you have with it scaling to light speed?

Because the Pomsom 6000 doesn't scale to lightspeed, that's simple. If the shot in question doesn't have a consistent speed to be considered SoL, and is instead limited by another speed far lower, literally millions of times, and not 1 but 3 cases, then it doesn't scale.

Alright, I'm just going to ask you outright, before I entertain this further: Do you believe the verse caps at Athletic reaction speeds?

This really shouldn't affect the current arguments, and I'll be honest, I don't give a shit where they exactly scale while it's consistently, but they clearly aren't FTL.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

i think we are looking at it the wrong way, in game speeds/hu scaling are clearly flawed by the fact that when the devs added those weapons they didn't thought to make the pomson the fastest in game projectile (game balancing or something like that idk).

Because that would also open a lot of other implications, such as the mercs falling at mach speeds/relativistic speeds or them running at such speeds.

My opinion on the matter is putting a "possibly relativistic (or whatever would the mercs achive with this scaling) r/c combat speed" and making their travel speed subsonic/superhuman (wich it's more consistent with the game feats and lore overall).

 

[Lilybitdun]

From what I'm seeing the mach range is more consistent than lightspeed

 

[TheGatememer]

Case by case? If the verse consistently shows higher values, it would be taken into account. In this case, you have three explicit anti-feats that Mach speeds are significant, against, well, a statement that has been rejected in the forum, and two assumptions that they move at the speed of light, which, if not consistent in the verse, are not taken into account.

The existence of lower-end feats doesn't debunk the validity of higher-end feats. I've presented two SoL feats, and one supporting statement (which, mind you, has only been rejected because it would be an outlier/flowery language on it's own, which I acknowledged in the OP) for those two feats.

My point is, the fact that feats that are lower than SoL are more common, doesn't mean we disregard the latter entirely, when there are enough showings/statements. It's your 1 Subsonic (At most) feat + 2 Mach feats vs my 2 SoL feats + 1 supporting statement. We don't go by the lowest possible interpretation on the wiki. So, arguments that said feats are too inconsistent, or that it's an outlier doesn't hold.

Also, I pointed this out earlier, but if anything, it's your scans that show that the speed of the Wrap Assassin is inconsistent, given that it moves at the exact same speed as Baseballs, when the latter, according to you, is Mach 1 speed. So, if anything, going by your logic, your scans show that we should disregard your statements, given that they're proven to contradict each other.

However, this is exactly my point? Arrows have speeds that scale to the Cannonball, while normal arrows have subsonic speeds. They scale because they're capable of tagging Barbarians:

I'm pointing out the double standard. Why are you accepting that arrows here (which peak out at subsonic speeds) can be supersonic via scalling to Cannonballs, but insist that the Pomson be capped at lower than 90 MPH via downscaling from the Wrap Assassin? If your logic was consistent, you'd be arguing that the Cannonballs are subsonic, rather than have arrows be rated as supersonic.

similarly, arrows here are different, as they're limited by the speed that speeds lower than the Wrap Assassin have. We don't just scale to the highest, I want to remember that, we scale to whatever is consistent and is supported by the material.

Yea, again, it's two SoL feats + a supporting statement for those two feats. The existence of lower-end feats don't debunk those three.

Because the Pomsom 6000 doesn't scale to lightspeed, that's simple. If the shot in question doesn't have a consistent speed to be considered SoL, and is instead limited by another speed far lower, literally millions of times, and not 1 but 3 cases, then it doesn't scale.

That doesn't answer my question. How does the Pomson 6000 going slower than "90 MPH" disqualify it, but it going the same speed as a "90 MPH" projectile suddenly solve any issues you would have with it?

This really shouldn't affect the current arguments, and I'll be honest, I don't give a shit where they exactly scale while it's consistently, but they clearly aren't FTL.

It does. Because it would mean that you disregard any higher feats in favor of stated values that contradict higher showings, in which case, I really don't have much else to say to you, other than to make your own thread(s) downgrading any instance of a character having higher ratings than their "given values".

 

[TheGatememer]

From what I'm seeing the mach range is more consistent than lightspeed

Like I said to Amon, just because more mach feats exist than SoL, doesn't mean that we can't use the SoL feats. It's not just a singular instance/statement of SoL, but two feats + a supporting statement, which shows that it's not an outlier.

 

[AmonInChains]

The existence of lower-end feats doesn't debunk the validity of higher-end feats.

It does not invalidate them unless they are limited to this and clearly contradict higher values, in which case they are explicit declarations of their speed, and it is not 1, but 3 cases.

I've presented two SoL feats, and one supporting statement

Actually, you present one, the second you assume SoL because yk, particles, but we have standards that have rejected that speed if it is not consistent.

It's your 1 Subsonic (At most) feat + 2 Mach feats vs my 2 SoL feats + 1 supporting statement.

As I mentioned, there is only one direct statement about SoL, which has been rejected. In the case of Mach speeds, as I argued previously, they do not contradict each other.

We don't go by the lowest possible interpretation on the wiki. So, arguments that said feats are too inconsistent, or that it's an outlier doesn't hold.

We don't go to the lowest values if they don't contradict each other. Remember, we're on a wiki that indexes based on consistency, not the highest value.
And clearly, the FTL speed is contradicted by speeds millions of times lower.

Also, I pointed this out earlier, but if anything, it's your scans that show that the speed of the Wrap Assassin is inconsistent, given that it moves at the exact same speed as Baseballs, when the latter, according to you, is Mach 1 speed. So, if anything, going by your logic, your scans show that we should disregard your statements, given that they're proven to contradict each other.

It is the maximum speed that the game supports, things cannot be rendered faster than 3,000 hu/s, otherwise the game would tend to crash. If the Pomson were so fast, his speed should be at least the same as Wrap Assassin projectiles & Baseball's hu/s, but it is not, it is twice as slow.

Not only that, you YOURSELF are using the speed given by the game as evidence in the OP.

To further support it being a projectile that is close to the speed of light, ingame, the Righteous Bison's projectile speed is the exact same as that of the Pomson 6000's, which, as we established above, is a weapon that fires real radiation (ie, light).

I'm pointing out the double standard. Why are you accepting that arrows here (which peak out at subsonic speeds) can be supersonic via scalling to Cannonballs, but insist that the Pomson be capped at lower than 90 MPH via downscaling from the Wrap Assassin? If your logic was consistent, you'd be arguing that the Cannonballs are subsonic, rather than have arrows be rated as supersonic.

Because cannonball and arrows don't have a defined speed in-game, the speed of a normal cannonball is used, assuming real-life speed. Likewise, if the arrows had a lower speed, say, Mach 1 (as stated in the verse), and cannonballs are notoriously slower, then the scaling would be invalid, since cannonballs wouldn't actually exceed that speed. The same thing is happening here. The only reason this doesn't happen in the CoC-verse is because nothing limits them and they scale higher, whereas here we have a 90 km/h limiter, and the Pomson 6000 is below that in speed.
This is how scaling works, whether for lower or bigger results, you mentioned it at one point in the thread too.

It's not even in game speed, just the fact that they can outpace those projectiles at all.

Not sure what you mean. If you're referring to the fact that the mercs can dodge the projectiles ingame, well, that's just what scaling is lmao.

Yea, again, it's two SoL feats + a supporting statement for those two feats. The existence of lower-end feats don't debunk those three.

However, it does. You know that the Pomson doesn't reach speeds above 90kph given how it looks in-game, and all that's left are two assumptions that they're moving at light speed that aren't consistent.
Even if we ignore the speed within the game, you would be saying that the characters are being tagged by said speeds that are millions of times slower, and are being surprised by speeds also millions of times slower.

That doesn't answer my question. How does the Pomson 6000 going slower than "90 MPH" disqualify it, but it going the same speed as a "90 MPH" projectile suddenly solve any issues you would have with it?

It is the maximum speed that the game supports, things cannot be rendered faster than 3,000 hu/s, otherwise the game would tend to crash. If the Pomson were so fast, his speed should be at least the same as Wrap Assassin projectiles & Baseball's hu/s, but it is not, it is twice as slow.

Like guys, it is this is the fifth time I've mentioned this same quote.

It does. Because it would mean that you disregard any higher feats in favor of stated values that contradict higher showings

The verse has no speed calculation atm to consider this as wrong under normal conditions, its justifications are being faster than the aforementioned projectiles, which we know are below the Wrap Assassin which is Top Speed within the verse.

I really don't have much else to say to you, other than to make your own thread(s) downgrading any instance of a character having higher ratings than their "given values".

This isn't really my job, guys, y'all should be looking for consistency as supporters. All I'm saying is that the speed of light isn't consistent across all other instances, since you are scaling to all weapons and the characters themselves.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

so i guess we will need another speed ctr or this can go on?

 

[Rex_Eckles]

so i guess we will need another speed ctr or this can go on?

I guess if there's argument among supporters, then this probably won't go anywhere.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

I guess if there's argument among supporters, then this probably won't go anywhere.

I guess we should just do a ctr with feats already evaluated and a "possibly relativistic+" thing with this (wich i guess would be way more understandable considering in that case we would just suggest the possibility)

 

[LandonTheGuy]

So. if we will do another ctr regarding speeds in tf2, i would like to point out these already evaluated feats:

FEATS

1. Spy commits murder - 15.41802570892308 m/s (Superhuman)
2. Direct Hit projectiles speed - Mach 3,85 (Supersonic+)
3. Bonk scout speed - 7.16429 C, (FTL) <-- ops, i took the wrong value

SUPPORTIVE ARGUMENTS

1. Demoman can leave a blur when running with his charge - (Subsonic)
2. That one baseball speed thing - Mach 1 (transonic)

NEES EVALUATION

1. Spy saves miss pauling - 41,4 m/s to Mach 0,9

 

[AmonInChains]

Bonk scout speed - 7.16429 C, (FTL)

This calc has literally the same issues which were argued in this thread.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

This calc has literally the same issues which were argued in this thread.

Sorry, i wanted to add that i can agree to only the first part of the calc, putting scout at 20,55 CC.

1. In that case scout would have access at that speeds in only special occasions.
2. It would not create conflict between speeds in game or statements of sorts.
3. And it would not create weird implication such as relativistic+ gravity and relativistic+ mercs walking speed.
4. No one in verse scales to scout in that state so it shouldn't create no problem.

 

[Pyro9278]

This needs to be addressed in another CRT. Anyway, I can see that this only scales to Scout and under certain conditions, but this should be a separate update.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

This needs to be addressed in another CRT. Anyway, I can see that this only scales to Scout and under certain conditions, but this should be a separate update.

I guess me and the rex will try to do a speed ctr someday, altho i don't understand why the ftl bonk scout shouldn't be addressed in the same update as the one that will be done

 

[Pyro9278]

I guess me and the rex will try to do a speed ctr someday, altho i don't understand why the ftl bonk scout shouldn't be addressed in the same update as the one that will be done

So far, Relativist/SoL is a mess for any other mercenary, except for Scout, who has his own arguments. That's why I say it should be addressed in another thread and considered an isolated case.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

So far, Relativist/SoL is a mess for any other mercenary, except for Scout, who has his own arguments. That's why I say it should be addressed in another thread and considered an isolated case.

oh ok

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Tecnically accurate

 

[TheGatememer]

Sorry for the absence everyone, I had some exams which are now thankfully over.

snip

Before I respond to all of this, you haven't answered by question yet, and my response will depend on it so I'll ask again, so I have a better idea on what you are arguing (otherwise I'll just wait for input from mods to prevent us going back and forth):

Do you, or do you not, believe the verse's speed caps at 90 MPH?

Sorry, i wanted to add that i can agree to only the first part of the calc, putting scout at 20,55 CC.

1. In that case scout would have access at that speeds in only special occasions.
2. It would not create conflict between speeds in game or statements of sorts.
3. And it would not create weird implication such as relativistic+ gravity and relativistic+ mercs walking speed.
4. No one in verse scales to scout in that state so it shouldn't create no problem.

Please leave BONK! stuff for it's own thread; I'd like to handle the merc's base speeds before we handle any higher ratings/calculations.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Please leave BONK! stuff for it's own thread; I'd like to handle the merc's base speeds before we handle any higher ratings/calculations.

I have my doubts this will pass (no offence memer), but in an hypotetical scenario this passes you got it (either way i'm already occupied with 2 ctr)

 

[TheGatememer]

Added this to the OP, but here's another scan proving that the Pomson fires EM Radiation:

The Pomson 6000 has been described thus: "Blasting out rapid-succession pulses of cross-spectrum electromagnetic radiation

 

[TheGatememer]

bump

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Added this to the OP, but here's another scan proving that the Pomson fires EM Radiation:

the problem it's not that there isn't enough evidence for the pomson having that speed, problem mostly comes from the fact that in game we got TOO MANY projectiles that move at the same speed but are stated to be different things (rockets, the meteor shower, ball o' lightning exet...).

My opinion you could just say "possibly ftl r/c speed" by not including game logic.

 

[TheGatememer]

the problem it's not that there isn't enough evidence for the pomson having that speed, problem mostly comes from the fact that in game we got TOO MANY projectiles that move at the same speed but are stated to be different things (rockets, the meteor shower, ball o' lightning exet...).

My opinion you could just say "possibly ftl r/c speed" by not including game logic.

It isn't really an issue; It just means those projectiles scale to the Pomson. Like, we don't give different ratings to the Holy Mackerel, and Tank Buster, even though the former is literally a fish wrapped in newspaper, while the latter can blow up tanks, because they both scale to the same feat.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

It isn't really an issue; It just means those projectiles scale to the Pomson. Like, we don't give different ratings to the Holy Mackerel, and Tank Buster, even though the former is literally a fish wrapped in newspaper, while the latter can blow up tanks, because they both scale to the same feat.

Ok i think you kinda misunderstood what i'm saing, the problem it's not that i do not belive that projectile speed scale to each other (if that was the issue i would have agreed without thinking about it much), the problem starts from the fact that there are too many projectile speed that we know of:

For exaple you did a calc recently talking about the mercs moving in tandem with meteors, why aren't we using the meteors speed here too? or vice versa using the speed of the pomson (i think that's already have been done, but that's not te point) in the calc.

Now i'm not saing TF2 cannot be ftl, i do personally belive that the verse can reach that, but not using game logic that would imply that the mercs fall at relativistic speeds.

So i repeat my proposal is "Possibly ftl r/c speed" with a supersonic+ / Hypersonic baseline for r/c.