Be able to use the concept itself and make whatever change in physical reality is still conceptual manipulation, because you wield, and use the concept itself. While not as impressive as directly alter the concept, still is CM
Post in thread 'Raiden Downgrade (Genshin Impact)' https://vsbattles.com/threads/raiden-downgrade-genshin-impact.182084/post-7274401
Where did he say that conceptual manipulation would be limited?
Then in this comment, he said that Conceptual Manipulation was still okay, after they gave him context. It would be best to ask him directly what his opinion is on the matter.
There was no implications he agreed with what Sahl is saying there, he just said something about Weaver saying that Leyline is just a conceptual network. I don't get how you interpret this as Vietthai agreeing to what Sahl said when there's no implications about it nor if he mentioned it not being limited in that reply
He literally says that Conceptual Manipulation "is okay," after having context; before he was given context, he seemed to think that "limited" was okay. But as I said before, before assuming his opinion, we have to ask him directly about his position.
Like I said earlier, he didn't mention that in the slightest nor if there's any implications he agreed with what Sahl is saying. He just replied to Weaver saying Leyline as a conceptual network is fine then he said that's on your end and that's all there is. CM there is fine in the context that Vietthai thought as long as it alters whatever in Teyvat, there's no implications he talked about it being limited or not in that post (He made a stance about it being limited and that is all there is) If you wanna ask him then ask him, that's not on my end
Uhh.. He said "limited" thing before i gave the context of what it is. And then he said fine with CM from only being limited.
And the CM2 there was through the Loom of Fate, the Irminsul ones are already listed separately as its on both Nahida and Scaramouche's page not inside the Elemental Manipulation page themselves
AGAIN, because thats the only feat of CM2 of Leylines because nobody ever shown any feat even the creator Heavenly Principles themselves but that doesn't mean its limited, the CM2 only has one feat which is that Loom of Fate but that doesn't mean other people cannot do that what Loom of Fate do. Would say the Heavenly Principles who's literally the creator of the Ley Lines itself cannot do what the Loom of Fate do?
What Heavenly Principles did is only a creation of the concept, not alterating/destroying it. It is limited in the way that they need some kind of access to go through that, like Nahida with Irminsul or Caribert/Lumine with the Loom of Fate instead of manipulating it directly. Not to mention, Wanderer only gets Acausality (Type 1) and he doesn't get any Ley Lines Manipulation related so yes: There is a difference. Like would we say that Nahida could directly manipulate Ley Lines if it wasn't through Irminsul? No, right?
I retcon there was no concept being manipulated, so yeah they're gone if we're going by what Firestorm said. Either way CM1 for Raiden which is the main goal here, I don't think there's any contentions with that so it's already accomplished. The CM2 stuff and other things like BDE1 are just the things that gets removed alongside this (Nvm, BDE1 is for another thread) and maybe its IM2 too. We'd have to wait for FinePoint to comment on these abilities with the summary I gave out before
Where did it stated that you can only alter the Leylines with some devices? Where? Give me some, cmon.
Buddy, Irminsul = Ley Lines, it is the core of all Ley Lines what are u talking about?
Nahida didn't manipulate the Ley Lines directly, she had to manipulate the Irminsul FIRST to manipulate the Ley Lines because Irminsul itself serves as the container for these Ley Lines in the first place across Teyvat
It's a loading screen feat which is really not something I'd waste 1-2 hours getting it directly in-game, but you get the point that these Petrified Trees which are extensions of Irminsul is what defines the Ley Lines themselves. So, there's a difference. You can also read the description of the Original and Condensed Resin, they both mentioned about the Petrified Trees and Ley Lines there
So still don't understand after all these yapping?
If A defines B, how would A and B be the same thing?
And what makes you think they're different? Because Ley Lines is not a big tree? Because Ley Lines is not greater than Irminsul?
If it's not limited, it would've been manipulating the Ley Lines directly. There's no difference between manipulating Irminsul and manipulating Ley Lines but the fact that Nahida needs to manipulate Irminsul first, to manipulate the Ley Lines is what makes it limited
Irminsul is connected to Petrified Trees (Domains), Ley Line Outcrops and Ley Line Blossoms. Ley Lines is the root of Irminsul for a reason.
So theres no differences between manipulating Irminsul and Manipulating Ley Lines except Irminsul is greater than Ley Lines but their function and purposes ARE the same.
Interacting Irminsul is like you interacting with Ley Lines itself buddy because it is the core of all ley lines and ley lines is the root of that tree.
Like I said earlier, it still doesn't change the fact that Irminsul is basically the container for all these Ley Lines and you have to manipulate the Irminsul to manipulate the Ley Lines. It's indirect, not direct. If you manipulate the Ley Lines directly for example instead of it being through Irminsul or the Loom of Fate like earlier, then that wouldn't be limited but it'll be limited in this case. I don't know how it's still not clear enough for you, it's like manipulating a folder where there are thousands of files in there. In which, interacting with the folder doesn't really mean interacting with the files themselves
Found this trailer and i find that cap now, Dendro Archon's consciousness is directly connected to the Irminsul. And in Interlude Chapter of Sumeru, Nahida's consciousness can even reach the very core of Irminsul.
This seems reasonable to me.
Yes. It is limited for those who need some devices to manipulate it like The Traveler's sibling with their Loom of Fate.
And Istaroth's power that can changed the whole Timeline of Inazuma in the Raiden Shogun Story Quest Act 2.
Alright, I'm applying it then
No, you still need to ask @Firestorm808 since in his lastest comment he still agree with removal of CM, that mean you don't have enough vote yet to applies the thread and there are contention in vote
I don't think Firestorm808 is going to change his mind either, figured out if he agreed completely with CM2 being removed but you and FinePoint leaning towards it being limited only then the limited one applies
No? For what i see they basically said its limited for those who needs something to manipulate the concept but not limited for those who can manipulate it with their own power, so its not limited for Everyone. And since theres more people that can manipulate it with their own power than the one who needs devices or something, it cannot be limited whatsoever.
The Shades and others already have their CM2 respectively on their own profile, the CM2 in the elemental manipulation page here very clearly used the loom of fate stuff so there's a difference and this includes that Irminsul stuff given there's literally not a single thing bringing up Irminsul in the justification there
Thats because the CM2 on the Shades is for another reasons not Ley Lines but that doesn't mean they can't have it from another things too.
just because the justification/the scan is only from the Loom of Fate doesn't mean everyone else needs to create something like Loom of Fate to manipulate CM2 through Ley Lines.
Yeah lets apply what the Shades were doing and Irminsul to the Ley Lines Manipulation, surely it would be a good idea right? (Mavuika having access to them technically, cough cough). Yeah no, it's pretty obvious Ley Lines Manipulation there are for things like Loom of Fate and whatever Mavuika was capable of doing in her second plan if the first failed. There's a reason why Irminsul is listed separately in which it's on Nahida's pageThats because the CM2 on the Shades is for another reasons not Ley Lines but that doesn't mean they can't have it from another things too.
And for the love of a god.. Loom of Fate ARE NOT the one and only way they can manipulate CM2 through Ley Lines.
Are u gonna say The Shades and the Heavenly Principles who's literally the creator of the Ley Lines needs to create something like Loom of Fate to manipulate the CM2 through Ley Lines? Thats just ridiculous.
Irminsul literally does the same thing and its as blantant as that Loom of Fate, if you really want that justification of Irminsul so bad i can apply it there for you.
What are u talking abt buddy
So the Conceptual Network here is the Loom of Fate not Ley Lines?
nah you're tweakin twin nah fr
Can you recap your current positions on the matter?
