Raiden Downgrade (Genshin Impact) — 1 more Staff Vote (STAFF IS NEEDED)

[Vietthai96]

Leyline is only stated as a conceptual network and that's all there is, I disagree with CM given it was an ability given to those who can manipulate Leyline when you know: No one is even capable of altering the concept, I'd agree with Phanes having CM2 especially Creation cause Phanes created it but other than that, no.

You can take a look at the justification themselves, let me know what you think but yeah that's all. Yeah, it's not explained what concept was being altered there on the last sentence. It's insane tbh

I think i already said it but

Using concept to alter something the concept govern in physical reality is still CM, just the effect will not be conceptual since the concept isn't what was altered, a bad CM hax, but still CM hax nonetheless

So if the Leyline is conceptual, then using Leyline to manipulate, alter reality still qualify as CM

 

[MSahla]

As I replied to you before, no concept is being manipulated here. You made up your own headcanon of Loom of Fate manipulating memories as concept to create new Khaenriah but it was proven wrong.

That replies of yours is basically wants lumine to say the concept of memories.

Even though Memories, Information, Elements, Souls are part of the Ley Lines itself which is a Conceptual Network.

But anyway

 

[Voidnether]

I think i already said it but

Yeah fine by me then, I suppose Limited CM2 works since it's through a device anyway?

I'll just remove the CM1 & IM2 then, if you agree with it

 

[Vietthai96]

Yeah fine by me then, I suppose Limited CM2 works since it's through a device anyway?

I'll just remove the CM1 & IM2 then, if you agree with it

It is still flatout CM, just because the effect is shit doesn't mean it is limited. In sense, you are "wielding" the concept itself to do thing you want

Edit: it is only limited if you need some kind of medium to have access to and use the Leyline, if you use your own power then it is flatout Solid

 

[Voidnether]

It is still flatout CM, just because the effect is shit doesn't mean it is limited. In sense, you are "wielding" the concept itself to do thing you want

Edit: it is only limited if you need some kind of medium to have access to and use the Leyline, if you use your own power then it is flatout Solid

Yeah but the problem is that they need the Loom of Fate, w/o that they couldn't. Which was in the second link I gave earlier (the cutscene one) and Caribert also achieved this through the same Loom of Fate technology

 

[MSahla]

Yeah but the problem is that they need the Loom of Fate, w/o that they couldn't. Which was in the second link I gave earlier (the cutscene one) and Caribert also achieved this through the same Loom of Fate technology

They did not really need Loom of Fate, Irminsul can do that easily as it is the core of the Ley Lines itself.

Loom of Fate merely just for one goal, to revive Khaenri'ah and collect all memories with it and place it somewhere else.

Irminsul can alter the reality, similar to what Wanderer and Rukkhadevata did.

 

[Voidnether]

They did not really need Loom of Fate, Irminsul can do that easily as it is the core of the Ley Lines itself.

Loom of Fate merely just for one goal, to revive Khaenri'ah and collect all memories with it and place it somewhere else.

Irminsul can alter the reality, similar to what Wanderer and Rukkhadevata did.

Caribert still did it through the Loom of Fate, Irminsul is practically the same as Loom of Fate — If they could do it without these two, it'd be solid CM2 but they still had to do it with these two, no?

 

[Vietthai96]

Yeah but the problem is that they need the Loom of Fate, w/o that they couldn't. Which was in the second link I gave earlier (the cutscene one) and Caribert also achieved this through the same Loom of Fate technology

Well, shit, Limited then, is there anyone who can do this with their own power, exclude the suppose character you said above who created the Leyline

 

[MSahla]

Caribert still did it through the Loom of Fate, Irminsul is practically the same as Loom of Fate — If they could do it without these two, it'd be solid CM2 but they still had to do it with these two, no?

I mean im not talking about Caribert and Lumine but the other people. Loom of Fate is only for Caribert and Lumine.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

So i just want to say, is Leyline conceptual or not?, if it is the former then CM for anyone who can manipilate Leyline is fine, but if it is the latter, then i disagree with CM

It seems like @Weaver261 is claiming that the conceptual stuff is a extreme mistranslation that only exist in the English version, not the Chinesse raws.

I still disagree with both CM for Archons and Leylines. Makoto's Realm of Consciousness were never referred to as "concept" in original chinese. You guys can fact check it with a translation helper. EN localization of "Abstract concept" is referring to "vague knowledge" instead of metaphysical stuffs.
Leylines should only have Information Manipulation and not CM because Leylines can only change the memory and information of Teyvat. It can't change anything physical and it was explained in the Sumeru Questline by Mage N explictly.

(Traveler): (That night we stayed here, Paimon bumped into the table after being startled by something to do with The Balladeer and broke the vase.)
(Traveler): (But The Balladeer erased his existence. He changed the world... So why is this vase still broken?)
???: Unfortunately, the fate of Teyvat cannot easily be changed. Perhaps a god may have a slim chance, but for anyone else... who can say.
???: When a small animal runs into a tree trunk, though the tree may sway, it is not displaced. The same is true of fate.
???: Like a vase that falls to the ground. Whether it is broken by a cat or by a bird, the result is still a broken vase, is it not?
???: History does not change easily, but human hearts can. Believe your own eyes. Only that which you see is true. What is unseen is but an illusion.

Leylines cannot change anything physically since it can do is limited to information. Even if you changed the history via Irminsul, the events that already happened will happen one way or another depending on how you remember it.

So yeah, I do consider that a pretty big red flag, so I think the best thing would be to show the Chinese raws here, and/or send them to an on-site translator.

 

[MSahla]

It seems like @Weaver261 is claiming that the conceptual stuff is a extreme mistranslation that only exist in the English version, not the Chinesse raws.




So yeah, I do consider that a pretty big red flag, so I think the best thing would be to show the Chinese raws here, and/or send them to an on-site translator.

No, the "Conceptual Network" Is coming from the CN itself, the english one is just said "a mysterious network"

 

[Voidnether]

Well, shit, Limited then, is there anyone who can do this with their own power, exclude the suppose character you said above who created the Leyline

Afaik, no, those two are the only ones that has been shown being capable of doing so

I mean im not talking about Caribert and Lumine but the other people. Loom of Fate is only for Caribert and Lumine.

Nahida's one is a different case, we're talking about Ley Lines Manipulation here. The CM2 there is mainly based off Loom of Fate

 

[Vietthai96]

It seems like @Weaver261 is claiming that the conceptual stuff is a extreme mistranslation that only exist in the English version, not the Chinesse raws.

 

[MSahla]

Well, shit, Limited then, is there anyone who can do this with their own power, exclude the suppose character you said above who created the Leyline

The Dendro Archon like Nahida and Rukkhadevata who's the Avatar of Irminsul itself, Irminsul is the core of all Ley Lines in the entire planet.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Sounds about right.

 

[MSahla]

Nahida's one is a different case, we're talking about Ley Lines Manipulation here. The CM2 there is mainly based off Loom of Fate

And Irminsul is also Manipulating Ley Lines because Irminsul is the core of Ley Lines.

The CM2 is for the Ley Lines not specifically for the Loom of Fate only.

 

[Vietthai96]

Someone extract the Chinese text for me thank, i'm gonna do this myself

 

[MSahla]

Someone extract the Chinese text for me thank, i'm gonna do this myself

地脉

连接这个世界上一切事物的概念网络,不同的元素在其中奔流。 据说,地上地下发生的一切,都记录在了地脉当中一

 

[Voidnether]

And Irminsul is also Manipulating Ley Lines because Irminsul is the core of Ley Lines.

The CM2 is for the Ley Lines not specifically for the Loom of Fate only.

The justification there never said anything about Irminsul ^^

 

[MSahla]

The justification there never said anything about Irminsul ^^

Irminsul = Ley Lines
But a greater level.

 

[Vietthai96]

地脉

连接这个世界上一切事物的概念网络,不同的元素在其中奔流。 据说,地上地下发生的一切,都记录在了地脉当中一

Concept, yeah, literally

概念

So the translation is fine i guess

 

[Voidnether]

Irminsul = Ley Lines
But a greater level.

Ley Lines Manipulation there still DOES NOT cover Irminsul, cause Irminsul is exclusive for Nahida, c'mon

 

[MSahla]

Ley Lines Manipulation there still DOES NOT cover Irminsul, cause Irminsul is exclusive for Nahida, c'mon

She got Ley Lines manipulation because she can manipulate irminsul.
Irminsul is basically a greater level of Ley Lines, like a normal Ley Lines is for one certain region while Irminsul is worldwide.

 

[Voidnether]

She got Ley Lines manipulation because she can manipulate irminsul.
Irminsul is basically a greater level of Ley Lines, like a normal Ley Lines if for one certain region while Irminsul is worldwide.

And only Nahida & Wanderer is capable of that, just read Ley Lines Manipulation. The cases only include Loom of Fate because that's what been accepted BEFORE for its CM2. It has no relations to Irminsul whatsoever so they're both two different things. I'm talking about those that uses the Loom of Fate, would they be limited or not and the answer is yes.

 

[MSahla]

And only Nahida & Wanderer is capable of that, just read Ley Lines Manipulation. The cases only include Loom of Fate because that's what been accepted BEFORE for its CM2. It has no relations to Irminsul whatsoever

Because thats actual and most blantant feat of that CM2 via Ley Lines.
It doesn't mean irminsul and other Ley Lines cannot have it.

Again, the CM2 is for Ley Lines, not Loom of Fate only.

 

[Voidnether]

Because thats actual and most blantant feat of that CM2 via Ley Lines.
It doesn't mean irminsul and other Ley Lines cannot have it.

Again, the CM2 is for Ley Lines, not Loom of Fate only.

But the MAIN EXAMPLE is Loom of Fate, I'm specifically talking about the Loom of Fate there being limited because I mean cmon you know Loom of Fate isn't something that can be used indefinitely

 

[MSahla]

But the MAIN EXAMPLE is Loom of Fate, I'm specifically talking about the Loom of Fate there being limited because I mean cmon you know Loom of Fate isn't something that can be used indefinitely

Then just put that Limited CM2 on someone's profile not the Ley Lines section because thats not a Limited thing.

Loom of Fate isn't a Ley Lines to begin with, its just a device that manipulate a Ley Lines.

 

[Voidnether]

Then just put that Limited CM2 on someone's profile not the Ley Lines section because thats not a Limited thing.

Loom of Fate isn't a Ley Lines to begin with, its just a device that manipulate a Ley Lines.

And you know Ley Lines Manipulation is achieved through the device, right?
What do you mean someone's profile, when it's ALREADY THERE that both Nahida + Wanderer can manipulate Irminsul, they don't necessarily have to be in the Ley Lines Manipulation category when it's already listed on their profile

 

[MSahla]

And you know Ley Lines Manipulation is achieved through the device, right?

Thats only for Loom of Fate im afraid.

Someones like Wanderer and Rukkhadevata was directly manipulating the Ley Lines itself, not some through devices or whatever.

 

[Voidnether]

Thats only for Loom of Fate im afraid.

Someones like Wanderer and Rukkhadevata was directly manipulating the Ley Lines itself, not some through devices or whatever.

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2; Elemental Power is the building blocks of the Universe and the impetus of many phenomenas and manifestations across it and Leyline are conceptual networks that spread throughout the world. Caribert also explains that reweaving the leyline will change the entire world) Where is Irminsul here

 

[MSahla]

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2; Elemental Power is the building blocks of the Universe and the impetus of many phenomenas and manifestations across it and Leyline are conceptual networks that spread throughout the world. Caribert also explains that reweaving the leyline will change the entire world) Where is Irminsul here

Thats what it is

Bruh, Manipulating Irminsul = Manipulating Ley Lines.

 

[MSahla]

Literally

Irminsul is Teyvat's world tree, a type of silver-white tree which grows deep underground, and is connected to the Ley Lines of the world.

Why would this to be confused about? Irminsul is Ley Lines itself but a greater level.

 

[Weaver261]

Concept, yeah, literally

So the translation is fine i guess

I am fine with Leylines being conceptual network but nobody should scale to it except Phanes who created this. Both Loom Of Fate and Irminsul, all they are doing is manipulating the information of Teyvat. Just as Mage N explained, nothing related to physicality is changed due to that. Only the informations and memories are changed.

(Traveler): (That night we stayed here, Paimon bumped into the table after being startled by something to do with The Balladeer and broke the vase.)
(Traveler): (But The Balladeer erased his existence. He changed the world... So why is this vase still broken?)
???: Unfortunately, the fate of Teyvat cannot easily be changed. Perhaps a god may have a slim chance, but for anyone else... who can say.
???: When a small animal runs into a tree trunk, though the tree may sway, it is not displaced. The same is true of fate.
???: Like a vase that falls to the ground. Whether it is broken by a cat or by a bird, the result is still a broken vase, is it not?
???: History does not change easily, but human hearts can. Believe your own eyes. Only that which you see is true. What is unseen is but an illusion.

As I said before, Loom Of Fate doesn't manipulate the concept of memory itself or the concept of souls itself. It was never stated that way. That was just his headcanon made up.

Haden: Think of Ley Lines as the collection of memories concerning a given place. To re-weave Khaenri'ah's Ley Lines as they were five hundred years ago, we would somehow need to retrieve almost all the memories of Khaenri'ah from that age.
Haden: The Loom of Fate cannot weave without an abundant supply of memories...

Irminsul and Loom Of Fate both work on memories and informations to alter something. Concepts were never stated.

 

[Voidnether]

Thats what it is

Bruh, Manipulating Irminsul = Manipulating Ley Lines.

Literally


Why would this to be confused about? Irminsul is Ley Lines itself but a greater level.

Nothing there MENTIONS Irminsul bro

 

[MSahla]

Nothing there MENTIONS Irminsul bro

Irminsul = Ley Lines.
Case is done.

 

[Furina003]

From the beginning, I said that I was confused as to why ley lines were included in the final results, especially since CRT did not discuss ley lines at all and did not refute anything related to ley lines.
Ley lines are described as a conceptual network, and changing ley lines will change the entire world. This implies that ley lines are a type 2 conceptual network and manipulating ley lines will result in type 2 conceptual manipulation. The cases of Scaramouche and Rukhadevatta were not leyline manipulations, but rather they specifically erased their own information in Irminsul.

 

[Voidnether]

From the beginning, I said that I was confused as to why ley lines were included in the final results, especially since CRT did not discuss ley lines at all and did not refute anything related to ley lines.
Ley lines are described as a conceptual network, and changing ley lines will change the entire world. This implies that ley lines are a type 2 conceptual network and manipulating ley lines will result in type 2 conceptual manipulation. The cases of Scaramouche and Rukhadevatta were not leyline manipulations, but rather they specifically erased their own information in Irminsul.

Because there was no alteration like the CM1, in which Viet explained that it's still CM2 but a terrible one. I've been saying that Loom of Fate ≠ Irminsul cause it's listed on both Nahida and Wanderer's profiles ANYWAY

 

[Vietthai96]

I am fine with Leylines being conceptual network

Well, that is the problem on your end then, idk the verse so i can't say anything, just evaluate the information you guys has brought up. The CM2 is fine, but who will get and who will not, i can't say anything about it

 

[MSahla]

Well, that is the problem on your end then, idk the verse so i can't say anything, just evaluate the information you guys has brought up. The CM2 is fine, but who will get and who will not, i can't say anything about it

Well basically its for anyone who can manipulate the Ley Lines.

 

[Firestorm808]

Anyway, i'm still fine with CM if Leyline is conceptual

Per our site, "Conceptual Manipulation is the ability to manipulate, create, and/or destroy abstract concepts."

Being able to interact with Conceptual Leylines wouldn't be considered manipulating, no? The Leylines themselves remain as Leylines.