Pokémon Physiology: The Finalist's Finalest Final Reckoning

[GyroNutz]

Hmm.

I'll comment on each power that I'm against/want further clarification on; everything I don't mention I'm probably fine with. Will assume I'm not missing further context in this thread.

• Agreed Joltik is very small, but where does "drawing a bead on Joltik" come from?
• The stats amp in question just seems to be two (trained) mons working together being superior to the sum of their parts, due to synergy with each other (and I think in the specific Olympia example, helping hand plays a big part there, which is a specific doubles amping move)
• Fusionism... sure? But it's limited - there are better but more specific examples of fusing moves in Pokemon (e.g. the pledge moves - these won't apply to the generic physiology page). I would also specify energy/special attacks unless you can think of further examples
• Agreed on Damage Boost insomuch that moves are considered to be superior to "regular attacks" (both in Mystery Dungeon and generic slams/hits in the anime), and the whole thing about same type attack bonus. For a more meta reason, this could loosely lead on to the "blessed" thing you talked about as every Pokemon move is derived specifically from the plates. Critical hits do not come under this, as pressure points supercedes "damage boost" in this case
• Not sold on social influencing as none of these examples imply a specific power rather than Pokemon being likeable and cool (especially in contests where the goal is to use flashy moves to impress). There are probably legit examples of this (maybe Amity Square?), but I can't think of any right now
• It stands to reason that fighting stronger/more skilled opponents would make characters stronger more quickly - same with being more motivated (affection). Food giving exp is a feat for the food, not the Pokemon. Again, probably legit examples of this, but it'd be hard to find a generic example given that there's only humans to compare them to.
• Magic - sure, but specify the implications and applicability of this 'magic'
• Toon Force & Elasticity is limited but yeah sure
• Not sold on the regen (or transmutation resistance) - isn't it just entirely possible that the effects of the orb are limited by time? More importantly, we don't give out resistance/regen feats to a character losing in a game and coming back, especially when said coming back is unexplained and done off-screen.
• For healing/purification, I would point to more natural things like walking around, sleeping and "shaking off" status conditions
• Disagree on minor fate manipulation, it's flowery and Masters is not canon (and even if we somehow accept masters currently, which would be wrong, then you'd have to provide the japanese scans since there's big language differences)
• I don't think the self-sealing is worth mentioning, since all our Pokemon species profiles assume they wouldn't have a poke ball to go back into
• Resistances not mentioned above are good though a few justifications are iffy. I wouldn't mention sheer cold, the harsh sunlight thing (which is a feat for the sunlight), and poison gas. I would add Pokemon being unharmed by Electric Terrain as a further Electricity manip resistance. Bio manip resistance is weird but I guess its true compared to real life - idk how potent "first generation inbreeding" ranks on the bio manip scale though

I would also mention that Pokemon can generally battle inside (semi) active volcanoes, underwater and in space, and can hurt foes like Magcargo/Camerupt. So similar to the Glastrier logic, they should resist Heat Manipulation, Radiation Manipulation and have Underwater Breathing. Pokemon are also unharmed by the whole battlefield being under the effects of Ion Deluge, which in Japanese is called Plasma Shower.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you greatly for helping out. I am fine with your conclusions here.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Hmm.

I'll comment on each power that I'm against/want further clarification on; everything I don't mention I'm probably fine with. Will assume I'm not missing further context in this thread.

• Agreed Joltik is very small, but where does "drawing a bead on Joltik" come from?
• The stats amp in question just seems to be two (trained) mons working together being superior to the sum of their parts, due to synergy with each other (and I think in the specific Olympia example, helping hand plays a big part there, which is a specific doubles amping move)
• Fusionism... sure? But it's limited - there are better but more specific examples of fusing moves in Pokemon (e.g. the pledge moves - these won't apply to the generic physiology page). I would also specify energy/special attacks unless you can think of further examples
• Agreed on Damage Boost insomuch that moves are considered to be superior to "regular attacks" (both in Mystery Dungeon and generic slams/hits in the anime), and the whole thing about same type attack bonus. For a more meta reason, this could loosely lead on to the "blessed" thing you talked about as every Pokemon move is derived specifically from the plates. Critical hits do not come under this, as pressure points supercedes "damage boost" in this case
• Not sold on social influencing as none of these examples imply a specific power rather than Pokemon being likeable and cool (especially in contests where the goal is to use flashy moves to impress). There are probably legit examples of this (maybe Amity Square?), but I can't think of any right now
• It stands to reason that fighting stronger/more skilled opponents would make characters stronger more quickly - same with being more motivated (affection). Food giving exp is a feat for the food, not the Pokemon. Again, probably legit examples of this, but it'd be hard to find a generic example given that there's only humans to compare them to.
• Magic - sure, but specify the implications and applicability of this 'magic'
• Toon Force & Elasticity is limited but yeah sure
• Not sold on the regen (or transmutation resistance) - isn't it just entirely possible that the effects of the orb are limited by time? More importantly, we don't give out resistance/regen feats to a character losing in a game and coming back, especially when said coming back is unexplained and done off-screen.
• For healing/purification, I would point to more natural things like walking around, sleeping and "shaking off" status conditions
• Disagree on minor fate manipulation, it's flowery and Masters is not canon (and even if we somehow accept masters currently, which would be wrong, then you'd have to provide the japanese scans since there's big language differences)
• I don't think the self-sealing is worth mentioning, since all our Pokemon species profiles assume they wouldn't have a poke ball to go back into
• Resistances not mentioned above are good though a few justifications are iffy. I wouldn't mention sheer cold, the harsh sunlight thing (which is a feat for the sunlight), and poison gas. I would add Pokemon being unharmed by Electric Terrain as a further Electricity manip resistance. Bio manip resistance is weird but I guess its true compared to real life - idk how potent "first generation inbreeding" ranks on the bio manip scale though

I would also mention that Pokemon can generally battle inside (semi) active volcanoes, underwater and in space, and can hurt foes like Magcargo/Camerupt. So similar to the Glastrier logic, they should resist Heat Manipulation, Radiation Manipulation and have Underwater Breathing. Pokemon are also unharmed by the whole battlefield being under the effects of Ion Deluge, which in Japanese is called Plasma Shower.

Alright, I can make some adjustments based on this feedback.

So do you agree on it as a whole?

 

[Antvasima]

Alright, I can make some adjustments based on this feedback.

So do you agree on it as a whole?

@GyroNutz

 

[GyroNutz]

Sure yeah, I think there's enough generic similarities and verse mechanics to warrant a physiology page.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Now that I have pretty much unlimited free time I can finally put together a much more detailed response.

• Agreed Joltik is very small, but where does "drawing a bead on Joltik" come from?

It basically just means they can hit even something of this size like a normal Pokemon.

• The stats amp in question just seems to be two (trained) mons working together being superior to the sum of their parts, due to synergy with each other (and I think in the specific Olympia example, helping hand plays a big part there, which is a specific doubles amping move)

Clemont was actually referring to Frogadier and Fletchinder in that scene.

• Fusionism... sure? But it's limited - there are better but more specific examples of fusing moves in Pokemon (e.g. the pledge moves - these won't apply to the generic physiology page). I would also specify energy/special attacks unless you can think of further examples

That's why I used a blanket statement to clear confusion.

• Agreed on Damage Boost insomuch that moves are considered to be superior to "regular attacks" (both in Mystery Dungeon and generic slams/hits in the anime), and the whole thing about same type attack bonus. For a more meta reason, this could loosely lead on to the "blessed" thing you talked about as every Pokemon move is derived specifically from the plates. Critical hits do not come under this, as pressure points supercedes "damage boost" in this case

It would depend on the verse, but Pokemon definitely treats it as both.

• Not sold on social influencing as none of these examples imply a specific power rather than Pokemon being likeable and cool (especially in contests where the goal is to use flashy moves to impress). There are probably legit examples of this (maybe Amity Square?), but I can't think of any right now

Social Influencing doesn't need to be a specific power in order to get people to do things. For example Homelander has tons of Social Influencing due to being able to retain and bolster his popularity, but it's not one of his superpowers.

• It stands to reason that fighting stronger/more skilled opponents would make characters stronger more quickly - same with being more motivated (affection). Food giving exp is a feat for the food, not the Pokemon. Again, probably legit examples of this, but it'd be hard to find a generic example given that there's only humans to compare them to.

The first sentence just proves my point. Also the player herself eats the same food with the same portions (however big) and never gains EXP.

• Magic - sure, but specify the implications and applicability of this 'magic'

Didn't I?

• Toon Force & Elasticity is limited but yeah sure

Pretty much every other verse where characters get flattened don't use Limited; even Crash Bandicoot who insta-dies from being flattened everywhere but the racing games doesn't use Limited.

• Not sold on the regen (or transmutation resistance) - isn't it just entirely possible that the effects of the orb are limited by time? More importantly, we don't give out resistance/regen feats to a character losing in a game and coming back, especially when said coming back is unexplained and done off-screen.

Orbs in general aren't limited by time. And in some situations we do, like a character making a full recovery from poison that should have killed him, or a character falling into lava that incapacitates him and climbing out later.

• For healing/purification, I would point to more natural things like walking around, sleeping and "shaking off" status conditions

Don't those need high Affection for that?

• Disagree on minor fate manipulation, it's flowery and Masters is not canon (and even if we somehow accept masters currently, which would be wrong, then you'd have to provide the japanese scans since there's big language differences)

How is it flowery? It seems pretty blatant. And probably 99.99% of all Pokemon feats haven't needed Japanese scans.

• I don't think the self-sealing is worth mentioning, since all our Pokemon species profiles assume they wouldn't have a poke ball to go back into

Our Trainer profiles assume they would.

• Resistances not mentioned above are good though a few justifications are iffy. I wouldn't mention sheer cold, the harsh sunlight thing (which is a feat for the sunlight), and poison gas. I would add Pokemon being unharmed by Electric Terrain as a further Electricity manip resistance. Bio manip resistance is weird but I guess its true compared to real life - idk how potent "first generation inbreeding" ranks on the bio manip scale though

Sheer Cold is kinda the point of the whole Resistance. Harsh sunlight can never be as bad as extremely harsh sunlight, so its presence doesn't mean a whole lot. Why even get rid of Poison Gas?

I would also mention that Pokemon can generally battle inside (semi) active volcanoes, underwater and in space, and can hurt foes like Magcargo/Camerupt. So similar to the Glastrier logic, they should resist Heat Manipulation, Radiation Manipulation and have Underwater Breathing. Pokemon are also unharmed by the whole battlefield being under the effects of Ion Deluge, which in Japanese is called Plasma Shower.

When dafuq do they fight underwater and in space?

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

When dafuq do they fight underwater and in space?

There might be other instances but off the top of my head, any wild encounter while diving for underwater, and for space, I think maybe the Deoxys encounter in ORAS? There might be smth else for that, idk

 

[FinePoint]

Sure yeah, I think there's enough generic similarities and verse mechanics to warrant a physiology page.

I concur.

Without commenting on any specifics, I do think the finished page should reference the Pokemon Profile Standards I made a while ago, and vice-versa.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

I presume that GyroNutz's concerns have been handled by now? If so it may be ideal to corroborate the acceptance vote count among staff.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

So it seems like the only thing people have issue with at this point is the Fate Manipulation?

 

[Lou_change]

Bump.

So it seems like the only thing people have issue with at this point is the Fate Manipulation?

I previously explained my reason for disagreeing

So this is the full scene about fate manipulation and precognition resistance and it really just sounds like Olympia is talking about how fate isn't preordained or certain. Especially given the other things she talks about like the actions of individuals can significantly alter their future.

Also it doesn't say that bonds are the greatest thing affecting the future Olympia say this
"Indeed, the future is not fixed—it can change, and it can be changed too.""Its course can diverge based on one's choices made and effort exerted.""But the future is shaped by something greater still...""Yes... I speak of bonds.""People, Pokémon... Your encounters with them are what shape your future.""The stars alone did not lead you here—the bonds you've formed played their part, too."

It's not the greatest thing it is just greater than the choices of individuals. Likely because bonds usually involve multiple individuals making choices and individuals making choices based on their bonds. Also this was in the context of Sabrina trying to figure out what her future would be like if she tried pursuing acting she was basically saying her future is up to her and those around her. That's just how cause and effect works.

I do have a few other things I disagree with

It basically just means they can hit even something of this size like a normal Pokemon

I don't think tackle for example requires more precision than me slapping a spider and wouldn't most attacks be larger then Joltix.

Orbs in general aren't limited by time. And in some situations we do, like a character making a full recovery from poison that should have killed him, or a character falling into lava that incapacitates him and climbing out later.

In the case of orbs are there any cases of Pokémon coming back from transformation that aren't either the player character or part of your adventure squad. The other regen feat is a folktale about how if you pick the bones clean of a Pokemon you caught in a stream or river, you can put the Pokemon back in the body of water you got it from and it will come back.
I have a few problems with this.
1. The story specifically refers to Pokemon from seas and streams not all Pokemon.
2. The focus on bones suggests that it only applies to Pokemon with bones.
3. The fact that the bones need be picked clean and returned to the body of water you found them is more reminiscent of resurrection than regen.
4. It is a folktale of questionable accuracy.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Bump.

I previously explained my reason for disagreeing

I do have a few other things I disagree with

I already relented on Fate Manipulation and removed it.

I don't think tackle for example requires more precision than me slapping a spider and wouldn't most attacks be larger then Joltix.

Tackle from a Dynamax Pokemon can still be dodged like any normal attack. They would get this because at a Dynamax Pokemon's size, trying to hit a XXS Joltik with moves, especially the more precise ones, would be like trying to squish an ant with a finger.

In the case of orbs are there any cases of Pokémon coming back from transformation that aren't either the player character or part of your adventure squad. The other regen feat is a folktale about how if you pick the bones clean of a Pokemon you caught in a stream or river, you can put the Pokemon back in the body of water you got it from and it will come back.
I have a few problems with this.
1. The story specifically refers to Pokemon from seas and streams not all Pokemon.
2. The focus on bones suggests that it only applies to Pokemon with bones.
3. The fact that the bones need be picked clean and returned to the body of water you found them is more reminiscent of resurrection than regen.
4. It is a folktale of questionable accuracy.

No, but they wouldn't be able to un-transform while in an inventory, because it's tiny and Game Mechanics.

People don't go fishing in tall grass. Also all fish Pokemon have bones.
I would agree on that, but the wording seems to consider the Pokemon as still alive the whole time; else they wouldn't be thanked. It isn't a folktale, because it isn't a tale. It reads more as a cultural mandate.

 

[Lou_change]

No, but they wouldn't be able to un-transform while in an inventory, because it's tiny and Game Mechanics.

They aren't going to add a permanent death thing for if you get turned into an item.

Also all fish Pokemon have bones.

not all Pokemon you can fish up are fish

I would agree on that, but the wording seems to consider the Pokemon as still alive the whole time; else they wouldn't be thanked.

Real life cultures do or done similar things

It isn't a folktale, because it isn't a tale.

Isn't it a part of Sinnoh folk story 1

I already relented on Fate Manipulation and removed it.

That's odd it still seems to be on the page for me.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Turns out I also had Fate Manipulation on my Psychic Power profile too. That and I also got rid of the bones thing despite it being a supporting feat.

 

[FinePoint]

So what's the up-to-date list of proposed additions?

I know enough about Pokemon I don't even need the scans, just the list and maybe a one word justification (like 'via Telekinesis').

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

So what's the up-to-date list of proposed additions?

I know enough about Pokemon I don't even need the scans, just the list and maybe a one word justification (like 'via Telekinesis').

Pretty much everything that's on the blog currently.

 

[FinePoint]

Pretty much everything that's on the blog currently.

Greetings from Norway. I had a little free-time and chose to skim through this.

A few quick thoughts:

The Social Influencing evidence seems really weak. These just seem like random personal opinions.

Having resistance to Perception Manipulation just from being unbothered by sour berries is really suspect. This could just be a simple biological difference causing them to taste it differently.

Resistance to Transmutation could just be a limitation of the item and anyway there's only one example.

 

[Antvasima]

@FinePoint

What are the staff conclusions here so far?

 

[FinePoint]

@FinePoint

What are the staff conclusions here so far?

There seems to be support in general, but there has been several different problems brought up, and the OP is banned so they can't address them.

 

[Bobsican]

Perhaps the problems can be summarized so that someone else can address them?

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, and Sean's ban will run out on January 13.

 

[Lou_change]

apparently Pokemon can tough out one hit ko moves with friendship

 

[FinePoint]

Perhaps the problems can be summarized so that someone else can address them?

Yes, and Sean's ban will run out on January 13.

I think we could probably just wait for Sean then, since they were the one organizing all of this, and I'm not sure if anyone else would even apply it otherwise.

apparently Pokemon can tough out one hit ko moves with friendship

And yeah, we probably could include that as some kind of Supernatural Willpower, since they 'survive' otherwise 'fatal' attacks just by wanting to make you happy really bad.

 

[Antvasima]

I think we could probably just wait for Sean then, since they were the one organizing all of this, and I'm not sure if anyone else would even apply it otherwise.

Okay. No problem.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Bump.