Logical problems with DKD High 1-A+ [Staff Votes: 3 - 0] [ACCEPTED]

[ExcelsisBerny]

Hi. I’m creating this thread to bring to light the odd situation DKD is currently in.

I will split this into three mini sections:

• The issue with the High 1-A+ scaling
• The issue with the High 1-A for the Afterlife
• The correct tiers

Since I know supporters are going to mass-jump at my throat, I’m asking for replies that actually contribute to the discussion and not short messages that say nothing or that repeat the same addressed points over and over again. Please, let us avoid stretching this into twenty pages; the matter is not that complicated per se.

As a final clarification, I’m not going to dispute information already accepted in the verse; in fact, I’m going to limit myself to using information that is present in the blog explaining the cosmology.

Spoiler: The Issue with the High 1-A+

If we go to the verse explanation page, we can see that the reason the work is High 1-A+ in itself is because there’s a direct explanation that all possible worlds which aren’t logically contradictory to each other exist.

In simple terms, the Afterlife is a logical space that allows for the existence of all possible worlds.

"More importantly, the Afterlife works as a space where all possible worlds that are logically possible can be created, altered, and destroyed. "

At first glance, looking at the scans, it seems correct and I wouldn’t have any issue with that; however, it’s important to clarify that 'all possible worlds' (that is, the logical space of the Afterlife) are contained within a larger system.

The very explanation page says so directly:

"First off, its a higher level fiction than the Main Story. Fiction within Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou operates in multiple layers. When Akuto arrives in the Afterlife, he has already destroyed the first layer and moved onto the second, this second layer being the Afterlife"

To be more precise, the Afterlife is the second layer of an infinite hierarchy of layers:

“You hated fiction, while living inside a fiction. You had a fetish for revealing that which was fictional, and kept doing it again and again. You would destroy what seemed to be a closed system, only to activate the system that lay beyond it. A multilayered fiction. An infinite regression. It’s a hell that continues forever. Which makes this... difficult.”

- ACT 13

In the text above it’s stated that the Afterlife is a closed system, so the possible worlds established in the Afterlife are logically within that closed system, just as the scans and the blog itself affirm:

"Since Akuto can create all possible worlds that are logically non-contradictory, he can also create stories containing infinite hierarchies, seeing them as nothing more than "lies" from his perspective. As he utterly transcends and holds complete control over them, this places both the Afterlife and Akuto himself at High 1-A. (High Outerverse level)"

"The Afterlife is a logical space, Akuto Sai scales to it and can create all possible worlds that logically non-contradictory, placing it and him in High 1-A (High Outerverse level)."

You’re probably already seeing what the problem is. Obviously this is a huge contradiction to High 1-A+, since nothing can exist above all possible worlds except a tier 0 per se (worse still if we’re talking about an R>F transcendence).

Given this context, it’s clear that the possible worlds are simply all the possible permutations of the system itself (that is the Afterlife itself and everything hierarchically below it); in fact, the very source material implies as much:

Maybe opening up all the possibilities was a mistake. Space is finite. Characters are finite. But their combinations are infinite. Opening up a possibility meant breaking down the walls of the worlds within Akuto that might have been.
It was the equivalent of giving birth to a new universe within himself. Of course, the tools for this universe weren’t limited to what was inside Akuto. The gods of the outer universe, even they became a part of the story. As a result, the story became chaos.
What does it mean when a story turns into chaos? You can find the answer within one of our oldest stories: “The Tower of Babel.”
Until then, you could say that humanity shared a story. Everyone, essentially, was playing their own role in the story. That’s why the world refused to allow anybody but Akuto to alter it.
But what happens if a story ceases to be shared?
The answer is: chaos.
The gods of the outer universe were, you could say, their own main characters, with their own main stories. So multiple protagonists tried to advance their own stories within the same place. It may have been chaos, but there was no conflict.
The reason for this was that it wasn’t just strong stories that were trying to take control, but even weak stories were included in this as well. The frustrating thing was that the strength of a story had nothing to do with its size.
Weak, huge things drove daily life.

- ATC 13

All this massive yap basically explains that at first Akuto used the space and the characters he had at his disposal for the possible worlds (the data in the log of his mind with the information about all the worlds below the Afterlife), but that after breaking his internal barriers, the very protagonists of those possible stories tried to access the Afterlife, so they became part of Akuto’s own story causing a ch(which up to that point only reached the Afterlife, Aka the 2nd layer of the system).

Therefore, those possible worlds are necessarily limited to the system. There’s no other way to see it.

There’s no further mention that supports a High 1-A+ for the Law of Identity and the Anti-Universe, so because of this huge contradiction, that tier should be removed.

Spoiler: The issue with the High 1-A of the Afterlife

Taking into account what we saw above… let’s look again at the justification for the Afterlife being High 1-A:

"Given the strict definition of possible worlds provided in the novel it follows that the Afterlife must also contain the infinite story hierarchies previously mentioned, since they, too, are logically possible. As a result, when Akuto creates all possible worlds, they must necessarily be included.

So, if Akuto succeeds in creating all possible worlds within The Afterlife, then those have to be included. And while opinions may be divided on how it happened, the thing we do know is that he did create all Possible Worlds."

"Since Akuto can create all possible worlds that are logically non-contradictory, he can also create stories containing infinite hierarchies, seeing them as nothing more than "lies" from his perspective. As he utterly transcends and holds complete control over them, this places both the Afterlife and Akuto himself at High 1-A. (High Outerverse level)"

As we saw above, the Afterlife is a system that’s contained within infinitely many ever-larger systems. The problem here is that claiming the Afterlife can contain the very same hierarchy of systems that, in turn, contains the Afterlife itself is literally logically contradictory (a logical impossibility that breaks the principle of non-contradiction).

To top it off, there really isn’t any evidence to assert that beyond an inference… but inferences don’t necessarily lead to correct conclusions, so if there’s a contradiction as obvious as this, then that line of reasoning should be rejected.

And just to be clear, I’m not saying it’s utterly impossible to find structures that paradoxically self-contain, but first of all, those fictional verses have more than enough backing for that claim, and second, the logical framework used for DKD’s possible worlds is a classical one (there’s no evidence that it differs from a conventional classical logical framework), so this logical contradiction is completely impossible to manifest in the Afterlife based on the work’s own narrative.

Spoiler: So, what level should the characters be at, then?

The Afterlife is a meta-layer above a multiverse that scales to High 1-B+, so it’s tier 1-A.

The logical possibilities Akuto manifests within the Afterlife are limited to the same Afterlife system, so they’d range from the lowest tier (11-C) up to the highest tier that system reaches (1-A), which is why Akuto can alter the Afterlife itself with that power.

Since the Afterlife is a meta-layer, the infinite hierarchy of the fiction scales to infinite layers within 1-A, which is 1-A+.

The Anti-Universe is a plane totally disconnected from the hierarchy and lacks the very quality of being a story.

Keena spoke excitedly, and began without even waiting for Akuto. It was a ritual where not only stories, but the body, would cross over zero and become imaginary. They would create a negative body, an imaginary body, the first step to becoming something not of this world. Data, existing as imaginary numbers.
A space without time.
A place where physical laws ended.
Beyond causality.
Beyond reality.
The salvation of all beings.

Therefore, it falls by rule into baseline High 1-A.

The Law of Identity scales above the Anti-Universe, so it would be an additional layer (not a meta-layer) beyond baseline High 1-A.

That's it.

Agreements: @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless, @Compsito, @ShinMaximillion, @Super_Nova, @BestMGQScalerEver, @Robo432343, @ScrollerGNL, @Qawsedf234, @BeTheWay1rst, @Reiner04

Disagreements: @StorytellingDemonKing, @Grabbing_dragon

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

I will address the easiest part with the time I have now. Basically, on the Law of Identity and Anti Universe, those are not the main reasons; they are just fancy ways to say their High 1A+ justification.
So basically, the Law of Identity is High 1A+ because she is a logical principle, like her name says, she is the principle stating that any entity is identical to itself. While anything from logic without any anti-feat is High 1A+.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

So basically, the Law of Identity is High 1A+ because she is a logical principle, like her name says, she is the principle stating that any entity is identical to itself.

That’s not what the verse-explanation post or the profiles say.

But in any case, that isn’t enough for High 1-A+. A fictional work can take real concepts and adapt them as it sees fit; you need to demonstrate that the character operates on a scale equivalent to the actual logical concept, which I refute in the thread, since “all possible worlds” are ontologically limited by the Afterlife system.

Also, your text doesn't justify the High 1-A+ of the Anti Universe whatsoever.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

I'll check this out later today or tomorrow.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

If I don’t reply right away, it’s because I’m asleep (I worked all night) so I’ll answer once I regain consciousness.

If you’re going to respond, PLEASE, I’m begging you, don’t split your reply into 40 micro messages trying to address every single sentence; it’s really tedious to argue like that. Give a concrete response to one section of the text at a time.

 

[Hjdjdhf]

Could it be that...?

 

[Compsito]

Honestly this makes a lot of sense, I always had problems with there being layers above the afterlife, even though this should already contain all possible worlds, therefore there should be nothing beyond it, except a level 0

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

That’s not what the verse-explanation post or the profiles say.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Law_of_Identity#:~:text=[10]-,It is the immutable law that you are yourself,,-[8] ,

But in any case, that isn’t enough for High 1-A+. A fictional work can take real concepts and adapt them as it sees fit; you need to demonstrate that the character operates on a scale equivalent to the actual logical concept,

It’s like you didn’t read the page, even the scan on the page says it’s literally with feats too.

“The Law of Identity. This is, taken literally, the immutable law that says that you are yourself. I’ve already discussed how the fact that you exist as a real, thinking creature, proves this world exists. But what happens if this world is someone’s dream? The answer to that is simple. The world is created by the Law of Identity of the world’s author.”

which I refute in the thread, since “all possible worlds” are ontologically limited by the Afterlife system.

Regarding the afterlife thing, there were already people who brought up the similar argument as you on the CRTs that @DontTalkDT linked here, The argument isn’t that the Afterlife contains the very same hierarchy of systems that it is part of, which is the TLOI hierarchy. It’s that since stories containing stories are possible, even stories with an infinite reality-fiction hierarchy are possible, as shown by TLOI. Since Akuto Sai created all possible stories and views them as lies, it should include stories with an infinite reality-fiction hierarchy since they are possible too. Lastly, the above ‘all possible worlds’ are used as High 1A justification, not something used for High 1A+,they’re there just to be there on the Anti universe and the Law of Identity.

Also, your text doesn't justify the High 1-A+ of the Anti Universe whatsoever.

Because it’s stated on the cosmology page, it’s on the same level as the Law of Identity , not being a part of the story of a High 1A+ character (the Law of Identity).

So I disagree with the thread because there are already similar arguments from other CRTs trying to debunk the verse, which were banned from being used, like 11-C reality-fiction transcendence thing. I don’t see anything from this thread pointing to that too and I’ll leave the addressing of every single sentence thing to @StorytellingDemonKing and @DontTalkDT

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Law_of_Identity#:~:text=[10]-,It is the immutable law that you are yourself,,-[8] ,

It’s like you didn’t read the page, even the scan on the page says it’s literally with feats to.

Sorry to say this, but the fact that you don’t write justifications that are intelligible and that actually capture what scales the character to that level is not my fault.

You can’t seriously say I ‘didn’t read the page,’ when what I’m questioning is whether being the Principle of Identity is the reason TLOI is High 1-A+, not whether her profile mentions her as the Law of Identity, which I never denied.

Just follow the thread of the conversation…

You wrote this:

So basically, the Law of Identity is High 1A+ because she is a logical principle, like her name says, she is the principle stating that any entity is identical to itself.

That is, if this were true, the reason that SHOULD be written in the explanatory blog is that one, NOT the bit about possible worlds, that is completely unrelated.

Let’s see what’s written in the explanatory blog:

The Law of Identity is the eternal, self-sufficient core of existence, transcending all differentiation, form, and hierarchy, dictating reality and fiction alike, including all possible worlds that are logically non-contradictory, placing it at High 1-A+ (High Outerverse level+).

There’s no mention that the reason she’s High 1-A+ is the one you brought up above.

I repeat: I never said the profile doesn’t state that TLOI is the Law of Identity. What I said is that the pages do NOT use that as the argument for High 1-A+ and only mention it in passing.

Let’s spare ourselves the accusations of not reading, please. If we play that game, you won’t gain anything, and we’ll flood the entire thread with a pointless discussion.

And being an immutable law to which the entire cosmology is subject is not High 1-A+, by the way. I invite you to show me actual statements or feats that place her at that level.

Regarding the afterlife thing, there were already people who brought up the similar argument as you on the CRTs that @DontTalkDT linked here, The argument isn’t that the Afterlife contains the very same hierarchy of systems that it is part of, which is the TLOI hierarchy. It’s that since stories containing stories are possible, even stories with an infinite reality-fiction hierarchy are possible, as shown by TLOI. Since Akuto Sai created all possible stories and views them as lies, it should include stories with an infinite reality-fiction hierarchy since they are possible too.

You’ve avoided my entire argument and haven’t addressed it in the slightest.

With all due respect, I’m not interested in what DT wrote forty years ago; I want the logical problem I mentioned in the OP (currently present on the verse’s pages) to be resolved.

First of all, once again, you’re changing what the profiles and the explanation say. Quoting the blog:

Given the strict definition of possible worlds provided in the novel it follows that the Afterlife must also contain the infinite story hierarchies previously mentioned, since they, too, are logically possible. As a result, when Akuto creates all possible worlds, they must necessarily be included.

So, if Akuto succeeds in creating all possible worlds within The Afterlife, then those have to be included. And while opinions may be divided on how it happened, the thing we do know is that he did create all Possible Worlds.

The previously mentioned hierarchy in the blog is the hierarchy of the Law of Identity:

First off, its a higher level fiction than the Main Story. Fiction within Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou operates in multiple layers. When Akuto arrives in the Afterlife, he has already destroyed the first layer and moved onto the second, this second layer being the Afterlife:

The previously mentioned hierarchy in the blog refers to the Hierarchy of the Law of Identity.

In fact, the only R>F hierarchy currently accepted is precisely that of the Law of Identity, since the multiverse operates through physical concepts.

Therefore, all of this collapses back to what I explained in the OP, that the system used to manifest logical possibilities is limited to the Afterlife itself. This means Akuto’s power reaches only up to the Afterlife and no further. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Akuto can stack multiple R>F layers, since not only does he never do so in Act 13 (where he merely alters the Afterlife and creates all permutations of realms below it), it is also never implied.

Please address the arguments I presented in my OP.

Because it’s stated on the cosmology page, it’s on the same level as the Law of Identity , not being a part of the story of a High 1A+ character (the Law of Identity).

Okay…? I’m specifically questioning the Law of Identity’s High 1-A+ rating due to a lack of evidence and insufficient argumentation.

So no, I disagree, you’re far from demonstrating that point.

But if you consider The Anti Universe to be equal to The Law Of Identity then I guess both scale to High 1-A baseline.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Hello there. I’ve now had the time to look through the OP, and I will address a few, from my POV, misunderstandings that I noticed. I do appreciate the coherence of the OP, and presenting actual tiering proposals, however, I disagree with the reasoning behind the downgrade.

That said, I do find it somewhat funny that the OP claims not to dispute accepted information, yet proceeds to do exactly that lol, but I digress. (Ik what they mean.)

Spoiler: High 1-A+ isn't an issue

First off, I want to clarify that the High 1-A+ rating mainly comes from The Law of Identity (Type 2), and The Anti-Universe (Type 1) being beyond all possible worlds and the infinite hierarchy of fiction. It exist in a state that is beyond and devoid of all stories, which is ultimately what it represents.

To quote the explanation page:

Given that The Anti-Universe exists beyond all Possible Worlds and any conceivable hierarchical extensions, it must exist on similar level as The Law of Identity, albeit lesser as she's the one creating it. It is the final state toward which all souls in Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou are guided, serving as the ultimate "destination" of salvation. The fact that it lies beyond even the perception of those within the cosmology establishes The Anti-Universe as the highest conceivable transcendental realm within the light novel.

So, the OP is slightly mistaken in assuming that the scaling comes from being above High 1-A+ Possible Worlds in the way they interpret them. (?) Void Body and The Anti-Universe aren’t Type 2, since to my knowledge, there can only be one of those. (similar to how there can only be one Tier 0) Instead, they fall under Type 1.

And, from the actual text of the light novel, this still holds up and fits the accepted reasoning:

“Hmm... We’re heading to where all stories end. Where humanity will always strive to go... That’s what she says.”

Keena must have heard this from the Law of Identity, because she seemed to not know what it meant.

“The place humanity always strives to go, huh?” Akuto whispered.

Humanity would dream an eternal dream through “light” stories, striving for a place where the weight of the stories would eventually become zero.

“We’re doing a ritual to create an imaginary body, is that right?” Akuto asked.

“I guess so. I don’t really think I could understand the details, but it’s basically our real marriage, right?”

Keena spoke excitedly, and began without even waiting for Akuto. It was a ritual where not only stories, but the body, would cross over zero and become imaginary. They would create a negative body, an imaginary body, the first step to becoming something not of this world. Data, existing as imaginary numbers.

A space without time.

A place where physical laws ended.

Beyond causality.

Beyond reality.

The salvation of all beings.

~ Demon King Daimaō Volume 13 Chapter 6​

All of that falls in line with the accepted explanation. The Anti-Universe and the Law of Identity represent the absolute end of the chain, not another layer within it, or beyond High 1-A+ while not being Tier 0.

As for the overall interpretation of possible worlds, I’ll cover that more directly in the next section, since it fits better there.

Spoiler: Explaining the High 1-A Afterlife

Now, the way the OP’s segment on the Afterlife’s High 1-A rating is worded, and correct me if I’m wrong, seems to interpret the blog as saying that the Afterlife literally contains the hierarchy it’s part of. That’s not correct. If we did, then yes, it would be a contradiction. But that’s not what’s accepted.

The reason an infinite hierarchy of R>F (1-A+) is still included as a possible world, is because it makes sense from the definition of “Possible Worlds” given in the light novel itself, and through things like the Life Logs. It’s not an issue of cosmological hierarchy and it being accepted in a way that "folds" itself literally, but more of a linguistic one, and about what can be expressed or written as possible within that logical space. Once that gets understood, in retrospect, the Afterlife being the next system above naturally jumps from baseline 1-A to High 1-A within the actual existent hierarchy.

Typical R>F hierarchy: High 1-B+ -> 1-A -> 1 layer -> 2 layers → etc. (1-A+)

Current accepted R>F structure: High 1-B+ -> Possible Worlds (1-A+) -> High 1-A (Afterlife) -> 1 meta-qualitative layer -> 2 meta-meta-qualitative layers → etc. (infinite meta-qualitative layers of fiction)

So, now, why does this make sense? As the OP itself recognizes, Akuto is not just using the data within himself but he’s using everything that can possibly exist, including information and things that aren't limited to it.

“You’re going to end the world... But like I said, that’s complicated. First, I need to explain what this world is. The afterlife acts as if it was made just for us. It responds to our will, or your will, mostly. Which means that this world can take any form you want it to.”

“That, I understand.”

“No, you don’t, really. You don’t know what that really means. There’s a concept called ‘possible worlds’.”

“Possible worlds?” Akuto “remembered” a word that he’d never known by scanning the data loaded into his mind.

“I see. A thought experiment that says in a world where anything can happen, given enough time, any given thing will happen.”

“Correct. Anything that can be put into writing can happen here. Which means that nothing will happen that can’t be expressed in words.”

Yoshie began to explain the concept of possible worlds, which was difficult to understand just from the database.

For example, “An elephant flies” or “Hitler appears in Paris in the year 2000” are both physically impossible, but perfectly grammatical sentences. If an elephant had wings, or if Hitler was still alive, they could quite easily happen. If you accept that these worlds are possible, you realize that the world is filled with endless possibilities, which can be thought of as simultaneously existing parallel worlds.

“You’re going to make every possible theoretical world,” Yoshie said, as if ordering him.

“Every one of them, huh?”

It was a staggering concept to think about.

“Whatever is left at the end is what you want. View every possible world, and then choose the one you want.”

“You’re right... In a world where I can do anything I want... I can look for a possibility that will save the world. It may be the only way out of here.”

“I think you should get to work right away, then.” Yoshie pulled up a mana screen and displayed the entirety of history so far as a model.

“The data you have access to is a copy of the world at the moment of its destruction. As long as that copy exists, you can use it to go back and calculate out any possibility you like.”

“But it feels like a world which was created that way would be pretty sloppy and inaccurate,” Akuto complained.

“That’s fine. Even a sloppy and inaccurate possibility is still a possibility,” Yoshie replied.

And so Akuto resolved to find the possibilities within himself.

~ Demon King Daimaō Volume 13 Chapter 3

The bolded parts are what I will focus on. Akuto and Yoshie know they are inside of a system of infinite fictions, stories within stories, yet Akuto still works with every theoretically possible world based on Yoshie's explanation, without excluding the actualy words that compose an infinite R>F hierarchy, or it being a possible world. This means that from a linguistic standpoint, even a world like “a story beyond the multiverse, where the next layer views the last as fiction” is valid, and so it falls under the scope of “possible worlds" as it's mentioned before.

Additionally, Akuto has access to every moment and information of a person's life, even their emotions, with the Life Logs:

Akuto grumbled to himself internally, but on the outside, he still needed to keep up the act.

“Artificial thing that calls yourself the Demon King! I will teach you that there is only one person in this world who is allowed to plunge the people into the depths of terror!” he yelled.

He felt an almost painful wave of emotion coming from below; all the hatred and fear from the huge crowd below was being directed towards him. He was now able to read the logs stored by the gods that digitized human emotions and turned them into language. At this point, his brain was linked directly to the gods themselves, and he could read the pasts of every person in the crowd, right down to what they’d eaten for dinner three years ago.

—This power... It’s the power to look into other people’s hearts. I can become either a god or a Demon King. Because I’m a normal person, like everyone else, I can choose which one I want to be.

~ Demon King Daimaō Volume 9 Chapter 1

So, since Akuto would be creating every single theoretically possible world, a world with 1-A+ hierarchy could very well be made.

To expand on this, since Akuto is stated to be able to, and shown to be creating every single theoretically possible world, a world containing a 1-A+ hierarchy fits within that definition. It isn’t that the Afterlife literally contains the larger hierarchy it’s part of, but that the modal logic governing it allows for any describable structure, and from the available data, infinitely recursive ones, which are 1-A+ by default, thus making it High 1-A in retrospect, and the larger hierarchy extends to infinite meta qualitative layers while not being the actual hierarchy within the Afterlife.

Overall, if I understood the OP’s issues with the ratings correctly, it presumes that the infinite R>F hierarchy is itself 1-A+, and therefore that a second layer containing that hierarchy would be contradictory. But that isn't the case or what's accepted.

That's about it from me, I'll wait for responses and maybe something needs to be explained more by me. (It's late, and I'm a bit tired, but got through it.) Maybe tomorrow I will answer ExcelsisBerny's responses to Grabbing_Dragon, (or if she makes a response to me) but today I focused on the OP itself.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Yeah, this is all wrong. I’m going to respond in a few hours since I’m busy right now.

Good idea using spoilers to keep the thread clean; I’ll keep that in mind.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I’m going to respond to all of this piece by piece. Please read my replies carefully so we don’t have to go back to point 1 again.

---

StorytellingDemonKing
[HIGH 1-A+ ISN'T AN ISSUE]:

First off, I want to clarify that the High 1-A+ rating mainly comes from The Law of Identity (Type 2), and The Anti-Universe (Type 1) being beyond all possible worlds and the infinite hierarchy of fiction. It exist in a state that is beyond and devoid of all stories, which is ultimately what it represents.

To quote the explanation page:

Given that The Anti-Universe exists beyond all Possible Worlds and any conceivable hierarchical extensions, it must exist on similar level as The Law of Identity, albeit lesser as she's the one creating it. It is the final state toward which all souls in Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou are guided, serving as the ultimate "destination" of salvation. The fact that it lies beyond even the perception of those within the cosmology establishes The Anti-Universe as the highest conceivable transcendental realm within the light novel.

So, the OP is slightly mistaken in assuming that the scaling comes from being above High 1-A+ Possible Worlds in the way they interpret them. (?) Void Body and The Anti-Universe aren’t Type 2, since to my knowledge, there can only be one of those. (similar to how there can only be one Tier 0) Instead, they fall under Type 1.

I want to clarify that at no point did I say anything about High 1-A+ being contradictory because TLOI transcends the Anti-Universe; I’m not sure where you got that from. I’m aware of the distinctions between types of High 1-A+, but my critique has never focused on anything related to that.

Having clarified the above, I’d like to say that, in general, this part of your message doesn’t address my argument in the slightest, and overall you seem to contradict yourself.

In the final part of that section of the text you say the following, I quote:

"So, the OP is slightly mistaken in assuming that the scaling comes from being above High 1-A+ Possible Worlds in the way they interpret them."

But earlier you wrote the following:

"First off, I want to clarify that the High 1-A+ rating mainly comes from The Law of Identity (Type 2), and The Anti-Universe (Type 1) being beyond all possible worlds and the infinite hierarchy of fiction. It exist in a state that is beyond and devoid of all stories, which is ultimately what it represents"

So I don’t get it… does High 1-A+ come from being beyond all possible worlds or not?

Well, given what you say in the response and what’s in the explanation page, it does seem that is the reason (something I already debunked in the OP) and since it isn’t actually about all possible worlds from a logical totalitarianism perspective and is simply all the permutations of a closed, ontologically limited system, by definition it’s not High 1-A+…

Being beyond the fiction’s system hierarchy (1-A+) and being devoid of the very characteristic that fundamentally composes that hierarchy is precisely a “Meta-” jump, something I myself proposed in the OP.

Citing myself:

"The Anti-Universe is a plane totally disconnected from the hierarchy and lacks the very quality of being a story.

Therefore, it falls by rule into baseline High 1-A.

The Law of Identity scales above the Anti-Universe, so it would be an additional layer (not a meta-layer) beyond baseline High 1-A."

So you’re basically just proving me right overall.

---

StorytellingDemonKing
[EXPLAINING THE HIGH 1-A AFTERLIFE (1st Part)]:

Now, the way the OP’s segment on the Afterlife’s High 1-A rating is worded, and correct me if I’m wrong, seems to interpret the blog as saying that the Afterlife literally contains the hierarchy it’s part of. That’s not correct. If we did, then yes, it would be a contradiction. But that’s not what’s accepted.

As I showed in my message above, that’s literally what the profiles and the explanatory blog say… I’m not sure why you're trying to change what’s already accepted on the public pages.

Here’s the section from my previous message where I proved that the current pages talk about the hierarchy of the Law of Identity when 1-A+ of the Afterlife is mentioned.

- - - -

[EXPLAINING THE HIGH 1-A AFTERLIFE (2nd Part)]:

The reason an infinite hierarchy of R>F (1-A+) is still included as a possible world, is because it makes sense from the definition of “Possible Worlds” given in the light novel itself, and through things like the Life Logs. It’s not an issue of cosmological hierarchy and it being accepted in a way that "folds" itself literally, but more of a linguistic one, and about what can be expressed or written as possible within that logical space. Once that gets understood, in retrospect, the Afterlife being the next system above naturally jumps from baseline 1-A to High 1-A within the actual existent hierarchy.

This is basically a headcanon never supported by the source material.

When they talk about creating all possible worlds, they’re referring to what I said in the OP: all the possible permutations/potentialities of what lies beneath the Afterlife.

That’s why they talk about different worlds using the characters from Ichiban’s story in different contexts and why the Afterlife, as a higher transcendental layer, lets all the stories be flattened into an infinite space.

If we take into account that the Afterlife’s system of possibilities is limited (something that’s objectively true and that you yourself accept), then there’s no reason to assume without proof that an “infinite R>F hierarchy” exists among the possibilities Akuto unleashed.

In fact, the novel itself states that the data at Akuto's disposal for creating possible worlds is limited, but their permutations are unlimited, because each permutation lets Akuto obtain more material to create new worlds. You see this in the novel when Akuto mentions that as the worlds he creates advance, they become increasingly complex as more elements are added.

Necessarily, the system has a limit, and that’s everything logically beneath the Afterlife (that is, everything below 1-A), as I proposed in my OP.

- - - -

[EXPLAINING THE HIGH 1-A AFTERLIFE (3rd Part)]:

So, now, why does this make sense? As the OP itself recognizes, Akuto is not just using the data within himself but he’s using everything that can possibly exist, including information and things that aren't limited to it.

That's definitely NOT what I said nor accepted...

Citing myself:

"All this massive yap basically explains that at first Akuto used the space and the characters he had at his disposal for the possible worlds (the data in the log of his mind with the information about all the worlds below the Afterlife), but that after breaking his internal barriers, the very protagonists of those possible stories tried to access the Afterlife, so they became part of Akuto’s own story causing a chaos (which up to that point only reached the Afterlife, Aka the 2nd layer of the system).

Therefore, those possible worlds are necessarily limited to the system. There’s no other way to see it."

I don’t know why you’re acting like I typed words I never wrote…

The quote you put below just refers to everything possible within the system, yeah. The system is baseline 1-A.

- - - -

[EXPLAINING THE HIGH 1-A AFTERLIFE (4th Part)]:

The bolded parts are what I will focus on. Akuto and Yoshie know they are inside of a system of infinite fictions, stories within stories, yet Akuto still works with every theoretically possible world based on Yoshie's explanation, without excluding the actualy words that compose an infinite R>F hierarchy, or it being a possible world. This means that from a linguistic standpoint, even a world like “a story beyond the multiverse, where the next layer views the last as fiction” is valid, and so it falls under the scope of “possible worlds" as it's mentioned before.

So, by your logic, did Akuto also create a new Law of Identity? Because he also knows that concept at that point.

On top of that, you’re once again claiming that Akuto created all the worlds in the infinite hierarchy because he knows that concept, which would include the Afterlife as well (because if we’re going to use the argument that all of Akuto’s knowledge manifested as possibility, then an Afterlife necessarily manifested too), and we end up back at Russell’s paradox and breaking the principle of non-contradiction, which goes against the work itself.

Do you realize how nonsensical that argument is? You’re contradicting yourself a lot.

Don’t overcomplicate it, Akuto simply opened up every possibility relevant to the Afterlife system (11-C to 1-A baseline) and that’s it, which I’ve repeated several times already.

- - - -

[EXPLAINING THE HIGH 1-A AFTERLIFE (5th Part)]:

So, since Akuto would be creating every single theoretically possible world, a world with 1-A+ hierarchy could very well be made.

To expand on this, since Akuto is stated to be able to, and shown to be creating every single theoretically possible world, a world containing a 1-A+ hierarchy fits within that definition. It isn’t that the Afterlife literally contains the larger hierarchy it’s part of, but that the modal logic governing it allows for any describable structure, and from the available data, infinitely recursive ones, which are 1-A+ by default, thus making it High 1-A in retrospect, and the larger hierarchy extends to infinite meta qualitative layers while not being the actual hierarchy within the Afterlife.

You’re basically applying this concept selectively, ignoring what doesn’t suit you and what breaks the scale.

It’s either everything or it isn’t. If it’s everything, then you fall into a logical contradiction; if it isn’t everything, then the system doesn’t go beyond baseline 1-A because there isn't evidence that suggests otherwise.

It’s that simple.

If we keep getting stuck at this point with nothing new, I’ll be forced to stop the debate and just wait for conclusions from the staff.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Sorry to say this, but the fact that you don’t write justifications that are intelligible and that actually capture what scales the character to that level is not my fault.

You can’t seriously say I ‘didn’t read the page,’ when what I’m questioning is whether being the Principle of Identity is the reason TLOI is High 1-A+, not whether her profile mentions her as the Law of Identity, which I never denied.

Just follow the thread of the conversation…

You wrote this:



That is, if this were true, the reason that SHOULD be written in the explanatory blog is that one, NOT the bit about possible worlds, that is completely unrelated.

Let’s see what’s written in the explanatory blog:



There’s no mention that the reason she’s High 1-A+ is the one you brought up above.

I repeat: I never said the profile doesn’t state that TLOI is the Law of Identity. What I said is that the pages do NOT use that as the argument for High 1-A+ and only mention it in passing.

Let’s spare ourselves the accusations of not reading, please. If we play that game, you won’t gain anything, and we’ll flood the entire thread with a pointless discussion.

And being an immutable law to which the entire cosmology is subject is not High 1-A+, by the way. I invite you to show me actual statements or feats that place her at that level.

Okay…? I’m specifically questioning the Law of Identity’s High 1-A+ rating due to a lack of evidence and insufficient argumentation.

So on the thread below we have 3 of the most knowledgeable members all agreeing on logical truths being High 1A+ which includes Law of Identity, for @Agnaa they need to be immutable that is what the Law of Identity is as you have seen from the scan, for @Ultima they need to be fundamental and independent of particulars that too is what the Law of Identity is if you look at the cosmology page she is independent of anything, so she is High 1A+ due to being a real logical truth, a fundamental structure of all possible worlds which does not exist in any hierarchy like the cosmology page says.

Logic Manipulation Ability Page Creation

I wanted to separate Logic Manipulation from Law Manipulation for quite a while, as throwing logic and laws of nature in one bucket always seemed strange to me. Sadly, there were never enough users to justify taking such a step. However, as of late, the Tiering System Revision has changed the...

vsbattles.com

So no, I disagree, you’re far from demonstrating that point.

It is you who does not understand the standards; logic is High 1A+. Why wouldn’t the rules that govern logic not be High 1A+? Man, I do hope you don’t bring up that afterlife possible worlds stuff, since it is pretty obvious those aren’t true possible worlds by the standards , as they are part of a hierarchy.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

So on the thread below we have 3 of the most knowledgeable members all agreeing on logical truths being High 1A+ which includes Law of Identity, for @Agnaa they need to be immutable that is what the Law of Identity is as you have seen from the scan, for @Ultima they need to be fundamental and independent of particulars that too is what the Law of Identity is if you look at the cosmology page she is independent of anything, so she is High 1A+ due to being a real logical truth, a fundamental structure of all possible worlds which does not exist in any hierarchy like the cosmology page says.

Logical laws don’t even have a tier per se; they’re just epistemological tools to reason in an intelligible way.

You telling me that the law of identity in classical logic scales to “High 1-A+” doesn’t mean anything. What DOES scale to that level is the totality of possible worlds that stem from reasoning in an absolutist way.

You’re trying to shield yourself and dodge the burden of proof, namely having to show that the law of identity covers all possible worlds from a kind of logical-totalitarianism perspective (since the argument you’re using is wrong from a logical standpoint and narratively contradictory) by quote-dropping staff members in a completely different context.

Could you please stop doing that and actually prove your point already?

Being immutable doesn’t make you High 1-A+, and if something is immutable it’s obviously relatively independent of everything else by definition, that’s a tautology. I don’t understand why you keep repeating the same thing.

In short, please show evidence, because if you keep insisting on this kind of argument, I’m going to stop replying and focus on StorytellingDemonKing, since you’re not contributing anything new.

It is you who does not understand the standards; logic is High 1A+. Why wouldn’t the rules that govern logic not be High 1A+? Man, I do hope you don’t bring up that afterlife possible worlds stuff, since it is pretty obvious those aren’t true possible worlds by the standards , as they are part of a hierarchy.

A fictional work can take a concept as a reference and use it its own way. The law of identity in classical logic isn’t a deity that shows up as an anime girl, you know?

All the characters in every existing work have identity (that’s what defines them as characters in the first place) and that’s something relatively immutable from an extradiegetic perspective, since the manuscript is developed from outside the fictional world. Are we going to hand out High 1-A+ to every verse on the wiki now?

Worse yet, are we going to give High 1-A+ to all the verses that present fundamental concepts just because those are immutable and define the properties of the verse’s cosmology?

Hell, you can give High 1-A+ literally to any verse that uses R>F using that same line of reasoning..

You’re going to need to post EVIDENCE.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

I just need to preface this, but logical laws by necessity are applicable to every single fictional framework. It's already implicit that the story is itself and all characters are identical to themselves, because laws of thought are implicitly necessary for self-reference and reflexive identity relations. If it is the case that a character embodies reflexivity or the law of identity. It does not appropriate any ontology altogether, because the statement 'A=A' doesn't convey anything meaningful (is empty), lest it is specified what ontology constitutes A.

Furthermore, it's strange that anybody would think the laws of thought are High 1A+ inherently. What of the positions of logical laws as prescriptive? The position doesn't appropriate ontology whatsoever and only considers the necessity of logical laws, with respect to their necessity for rationale. That's why we can meaningfully speak of Tier 0 as itself; it cannot be beyond the law of identity, because even Pure Act appropriates self-reflexivity through the unity of Esse and Essence. Well, in a way, you can say it's a symmetric relation of A and B, essence and to be (Being). If it is the case that laws of thought are High 1A+ by necessity, in what sense are we talking about here? Because the story doesn't establish any ontology beyond self-reflexivity, that would suggest that it's High 1A+. At best, you get a measure of LOI's ontology by its relation to the cosmology, because there's absolutely nothing specific here enough for it to be High 1A+ inherently. So that's not a get outta jail card. As Berny made it clear, the story suggests that Akuto has access to a finite set of atomic facts. Of which infinite combinations are constructed, this is completely against the view of logical space as a totalitarianistic sense. It makes logical space discrete, which denounces contradictory propositions like the fact that Logical Space is not the space of all possibilities.

As a proposition reducible to the structure of logical space. So you can't defend the capacity for contradictions like “the afterlife is closed and bounded under a higher structure” as reducible to “the afterlife contains the proposition of it being closed and bounded under a higher structure”.
So that's not a get out of jail card too, because atomic facts, which are brute within the logical space, are not unbounded but finite and bounded. It should also be important to note that “all possible worlds” being generated shouldn't have been an instant jump to High 1A+ as well. Because we know philosophers like David Lewis are materialists, that is reflected in their approach to modal realism. His possible worlds are bounded in his postulation of their concrete nature by necessity; that type of modal realism (which, mind you, there are many types) doesn't even seem to be fit for 1A. Let alone High 1A+ lol, so it's surprising to me that these issues are treated as light when they are more intricate than made out to be.

The structure of 'all possible worlds' matters more than the statement 'has all possible worlds'. So naturally, I agree with the downgrade, unless there's anything new that's meaningfully added here. But it seems the argument has taken a different light than as presented in the blog. Which is confusing now. Is this accepted somewhere else? Or?

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Good day. Hope everyone’s having a nice day today. Anyway, I’ll now respond to ExcelsisBerny’s comment.

Spoiler: My Response to Berny

I want to clarify that at no point did I say anything about High 1-A+ being contradictory because TLOI transcends the Anti-Universe; I’m not sure where you got that from. I’m aware of the distinctions between types of High 1-A+, but my critique has never focused on anything related to that.

Yes, you’re correct that you didn’t claim that, but neither did I try to say you specifically did on that point. What I responded to, thinking it was more self-evident than actually might have, is this part of your OP:

You’re probably already seeing what the problem is. Obviously this is a huge contradiction to High 1-A+, since nothing can exist above all possible worlds except a tier 0 per se (worse still if we’re talking about an R>F transcendence).

---

Having clarified the above, I’d like to say that, in general, this part of your message doesn’t address my argument in the slightest, and overall you seem to contradict yourself.

Interesting. Alright, let’s see about that, since I do believe I responded to you quite well enough. I might do a breakdown in the conclusion section to clarify that we are on the same page. (I hope so, at least...)

---

So I don’t get it… does High 1-A+ come from being beyond all possible worlds or not?

It's kind of both, which is why I specifically marked "and" in italic. The rating comes from being above all Possible Worlds of a High 1-A structure, and yet it's still unreachable and completely transcended in the way the light novel describes (all meta-qualitative layers, which would be the rest of the hierarchy), which is why it's High 1-A+ as well:

“Hmm... We’re heading to where all stories end. Where humanity will always strive to go... That’s what she says.”

Keena must have heard this from the Law of Identity, because she seemed to not know what it meant.

“The place humanity always strives to go, huh?” Akuto whispered.

Humanity would dream an eternal dream through “light” stories, striving for a place where the weight of the stories would eventually become zero.

“We’re doing a ritual to create an imaginary body, is that right?” Akuto asked.

“I guess so. I don’t really think I could understand the details, but it’s basically our real marriage, right?”

Keena spoke excitedly, and began without even waiting for Akuto. It was a ritual where not only stories, but the body, would cross over zero and become imaginary. They would create a negative body, an imaginary body, the first step to becoming something not of this world. Data, existing as imaginary numbers.

A space without time.

A place where physical laws ended.

Beyond causality.

Beyond reality.

The salvation of all beings.

~ Demon King Daimaō Volume 13 Chapter 6

So, yeah. The Anti-Universe qualifies for being beyond all possible worlds because it transcends the entire modal framework of the Afterlife (and it's possible worlds), and it’s also High 1-A+ because that very transcendence corresponds to the tier: existing on a level beyond the totality of High 1-A meta-quality structures, and being created by a High 1-A (Type 2) being. In other words, it isn’t just above one world or system, but it stands outside the framework that defines all possible worlds and meta-qualities.

---

As I showed in my message above, that’s literally what the profiles and the explanatory blog say… I’m not sure why you're trying to change what’s already accepted on the public pages.

No, that isn’t the case here. All I’m doing is explaining what it means. After all, if this kind of contradiction existed, it wouldn’t have been accepted before. The blog or the profile doesn’t literally say the Afterlife can contain the hierarchy it’s part of, but since this kind of misunderstanding exists, I suppose we should add a note in the blog and slightly reword the profile. I wonder if, then, this CRT is based on a false premise to begin with.

---

This is basically a headcanon never supported by the source material.

It's far from head-canon, and I directly quote the light novel for the basis of my explanation, but let's see what you can come up with...

When they talk about creating all possible worlds, they’re referring to what I said in the OP: all the possible permutations/potentialities of what lies beneath the Afterlife.

I think this is what I would actually call head-canon. Let's quote the light novel once more, shall we?

“Correct. Anything that can be put into writing can happen here. Which means that nothing will happen that can’t be expressed in words.”

The light novel pretty clearly says anything that can be put into writing, not just what's beneath the Afterlife.

That’s why they talk about different worlds using the characters from Ichiban’s story in different contexts and why the Afterlife, as a higher transcendental layer, lets all the stories be flattened into an infinite space.

This doesn’t go against what I said. We are very well aware of this. After all, Daimao characters being in different settings still falls under Possible Worlds. In fact, all the information and data relating to concepts like infinite dreams and story hierarchies still qualify. Please, let’s not mistake a few examples for the larger linguistic framework that Yoshie explicitly defines.

In a way, we can look at one of the actual examples given to us by the light novel:

For example, “An elephant flies” or “Hitler appears in Paris in the year 2000” are both physically impossible, but perfectly grammatical sentences. If an elephant had wings, or if Hitler was still alive, they could quite easily happen. If you accept that these worlds are possible, you realize that the world is filled with endless possibilities, which can be thought of as simultaneously existing parallel worlds.

Elephants don’t fly in their world, but because it’s a grammatically valid and conceivable statement, and Akuto accepts them as possible, the world is filled with infinite possibilities. Sure, the examples are silly, but they’re more than enough to show that possible worlds aren’t limited to character reconfigurations, but that they encompass entirely different systems. (As the explanatory blog itself uses an isekai example to show how even vastly different histories can be part of one structure.)

If we take into account that the Afterlife’s system of possibilities is limited (something that’s objectively true and that you yourself accept), then there’s no reason to assume without proof that an “infinite R>F hierarchy” exists among the possibilities Akuto unleashed.

In fact, the novel itself states that the data at Akuto's disposal for creating possible worlds is limited, but their permutations are unlimited, because each permutation lets Akuto obtain more material to create new worlds. You see this in the novel when Akuto mentions that as the worlds he creates advance, they become increasingly complex as more elements are added.

In some ways its limited, but not in a way that goes against the current tiering. So, I still stand by my stance as explained above so far. I'm slightly repeating myself here, but, this doesn't really change anything as infinite combinations would still include all manner of worlds of different sizes and hierarchies, still perfectly within the definition of the light novel. For example, the light novel showcases possible worlds as an isekai, so with even finite characters, it hasn't affected the potential of an aforementioned cosmology like R>F. Why? Because ultimately you have to ignore the light novel's full definition of possible worlds to intentionally limit it.

---

That's definitely NOT what I said nor accepted...

Citing myself and then you in a row with bolded texts:

So, now, why does this make sense? As the OP itself recognizes, Akuto is not just using the data within himself but he’s using everything that can possibly exist, including information and things that aren't limited to it.

"All this massive yap basically explains that at first Akuto used the space and the characters he had at his disposal for the possible worlds (the data in the log of his mind with the information about all the worlds below the Afterlife), but that after breaking his internal barriers, the very protagonists of those possible stories tried to access the Afterlife, so they became part of Akuto’s own story causing a chaos (which up to that point only reached the Afterlife, Aka the 2nd layer of the system).

I didn't misinterpret what you wrote, especially not what you used in your scans. When it describes Akuto opening up all possibilities, it explicitly says that “the tools for this universe weren’t limited to what was inside Akuto,” meaning his creations weren't restricted to the data within the Life Logs. Even the “gods of the outer universe became a part of the story.” This directly shows that the scope of the possible worlds extended beyond the internal database, incorporating elements outside of it. (Here, I also think the word "even" is a keyword.) So the text supports the idea that Akuto was working with everything that could possibly exist, not just what was archived within himself and that data:

It was the equivalent of giving birth to a new universe within himself. Of course, the tools for this universe weren’t limited to what was inside Akuto. The gods of the outer universe, even they became a part of the story. As a result, the story became chaos.

~ Demon King Daimaō Volume 13 Chapter 4

---

So, by your logic, did Akuto also create a new Law of Identity? Because he also knows that concept at that point.

He could write something like that, yes. But, it wouldn't be the real Law of Identity the same way the 1-A+ hierarchy wouldn't literally be what's above the Afterlife itself. (I mean, one of the journeys to create a story is self-recognition aka TLOI, but not the actual God of the series.)

On top of that, you’re once again claiming that Akuto created all the worlds in the infinite hierarchy because he knows that concept, which would include the Afterlife as well (because if we’re going to use the argument that all of Akuto’s knowledge manifested as possibility, then an Afterlife necessarily manifested too), and we end up back at Russell’s paradox and breaking the principle of non-contradiction, which goes against the work itself.

It would only be paradoxical if it kept up the endless hierarchy stacking, and included the literal hierarchy that the Afterlife is part of in its own system. I'm not. I am are using the linguistics of a hierarchy being included as that is another possible combination of words, thus a legitimate story.
And as I mentioned before, it seems like you're presupposing that the hierarchy the Afterlife belongs to must already be 1-A+ but that isn’t necessarily the case. If it’s simply an infinite 1-A+ structure as the baseline, then expressing such hierarchies within its modal logic doesn’t result in contradiction, IIRC.

---

Don’t overcomplicate it, Akuto simply opened up every possibility relevant to the Afterlife system (11-C to 1-A baseline) and that’s it, which I’ve repeated several times already.

It's not overcomplication that I'm doing, I more so worried that your interpretation incorrectly dismisses what's defined as a Possible World and should be possible within the Afterlife from the information give. Technically speaking, it takes more assumptions to exclude a 1-A+ hierarchy as a possible world.

---

You’re basically applying this concept selectively, ignoring what doesn’t suit you and what breaks the scale.

It’s either everything or it isn’t. If it’s everything, then you fall into a logical contradiction; if it isn’t everything, then the system doesn’t go beyond baseline 1-A because there isn't evidence that suggests otherwise.

It’s that simple.

This “either everything or nothing” framing is kind of a false binary. The Afterlife’s scope isn’t all-inclusive in the ontological sense that it now literally contains the infinite levels above it, but it’s also not limited to its immediate layer. Its modal logic encompasses theoretically describable worlds, which would include those that mirror 1-A+ hierarchies.

Spoiler: Summary, I guess?

I do agree with you on that I'd like something new from your next response. So far, I think I have been correcting your misunderstandings, and doing a fine job at it. Let's try not to go in circles, and please don't selectively choose when life logs and data available to Akuto, and things outside of it, should be used to unreasonably limit possible worlds by the light novels own definitions of them.

Anyway, took a while to get through this, so I guess I will focus on our conversation for now.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

"It's kind of both, which is why I specifically marked "and" in italic. The rating comes from being above all Possible Worlds of a High 1-A structure, and yet it's still unreachable and completely transcended in the way the light novel describes (all meta-qualitative layers, which would be the rest of the hierarchy), which is why it's High 1-A+ as well:

So, yeah. The Anti-Universe qualifies for being beyond all possible worlds because it transcends the entire modal framework of the Afterlife (and it's possible worlds), and it’s also High 1-A+ because that very transcendence corresponds to the tier: existing on a level beyond the totality of High 1-A meta-quality structures, and being created by a High 1-A (Type 2) being. In other words, it isn’t just above one world or system, but it stands outside the framework that defines all possible worlds and meta-qualities."

Then you are basically conceding that TLOI is not High 1-A+.

The “modal framework” of the Afterlife is 1-A baseline as I explained above.

If the justification is partly possible worlds (which I have already refuted) and the fact that TLOI is “unreachable” (something that literally any character conceptually above a system also known as High 1-A is), then this is effectively High 1-A baseline.

"The blog or the profile doesn’t literally say the Afterlife can contain the hierarchy it’s part of, but since this kind of misunderstanding exists, I suppose we should add a note in the blog and slightly reword the profile. I wonder if, then, this CRT is based on a false premise to begin with."

I honestly find it exhausting that you keep denying the obvious despite having posted evidence for it, but okay, let the staff decide what to do with that point, I suppose.

"I think this is what I would actually call head-canon. Let's quote the light novel once more, shall we?

“Correct. Anything that can be put into writing can happen here. Which means that nothing will happen that can’t be expressed in words.”

The light novel pretty clearly says anything that can be put into writing, not just what's beneath the Afterlife."

Here you are backtracking, because you and your friend literally agree that all the possible worlds of the Afterlife are limited to a tier below High 1-A+, and you also conceded above that the Afterlife is a closed system.

Therefore, that statement must necessarily be referring to every consistent proposition with respect to the limits of the framework in question, which is 1-A baseline.

Nothing new here.

"This doesn’t go against what I said. We are very well aware of this. After all, Daimao characters being in different settings still falls under Possible Worlds. In fact, all the information and data relating to concepts like infinite dreams and story hierarchies still qualify. Please, let’s not mistake a few examples for the larger linguistic framework that Yoshie explicitly defines.

In a way, we can look at one of the actual examples given to us by the light novel:

For example, “An elephant flies” or “Hitler appears in Paris in the year 2000” are both physically impossible, but perfectly grammatical sentences. If an elephant had wings, or if Hitler was still alive, they could quite easily happen. If you accept that these worlds are possible, you realize that the world is filled with endless possibilities, which can be thought of as simultaneously existing parallel worlds.

Elephants don’t fly in their world, but because it’s a grammatically valid and conceivable statement, and Akuto accepts them as possible, the world is filled with infinite possibilities. Sure, the examples are silly, but they’re more than enough to show that possible worlds aren’t limited to character reconfigurations, but that they encompass entirely different systems. (As the explanatory blog itself uses an isekai example to show how even vastly different histories can be part of one structure.)"

I already answered this above. You should also read the reply Shin gave, which also goes against your idea.

You cannot accept that the logical system is limited and at the same time say that it is not...

"In some ways its limited, but not in a way that goes against the current tiering. So, I still stand by my stance as explained above so far. I'm slightly repeating myself here, but, this doesn't really change anything as infinite combinations would still include all manner of worlds of different sizes and hierarchies, still perfectly within the definition of the light novel. For example, the light novel showcases possible worlds as an isekai, so with even finite characters, it hasn't affected the potential of an aforementioned cosmology like R>F. Why? Because ultimately you have to ignore the light novel's full definition of possible worlds to intentionally limit it."

You did not understand the purpose of that part of the message.

What I am explaining is that all the possibilities Akuto released are limited to the Afterlife system, so we are only talking about permutations that are inferior to the meta concept of the hierarchy of the law of identity. Therefore, it does not make sense to claim that the Afterlife surpasses 1-A baseline.

I didn't misinterpret what you wrote, especially not what you used in your scans. When it describes Akuto opening up all possibilities, it explicitly says that “the tools for this universe weren’t limited to what was inside Akuto,” meaning his creations weren't restricted to the data within the Life Logs. Even the “gods of the outer universe became a part of the story.” This directly shows that the scope of the possible worlds extended beyond the internal database, incorporating elements outside of it. (Here, I also think the word "even" is a keyword.) So the text supports the idea that Akuto was working with everything that could possibly exist, not just what was archived within himself and that data

They are "not limited to the logs" Akuto had in his mind, because that atomic information gave rise to more atomic information as the worlds formed and developed. That is what is meant when it says Akuto broke his internal barriers. That is the difference between him and the other Gods Universes.

That does not mean the Afterlife system itself is not limited. If what you mean is that Akuto did not restrict himself to using only the set of data he had at the beginning, then yes, that is obvious.

"He could write something like that, yes. But, it wouldn't be the real Law of Identity the same way the 1-A+ hierarchy wouldn't literally be what's above the Afterlife itself. (I mean, one of the journeys to create a story is self-recognition aka TLOI, but not the actual God of the series.)"

This does not make any sense whatsoever.

Are you telling me that Akuto could create something that is defined by its characteristics as immutable? How could Akuto write in his stories and designate an “individual” as the law of identity if that law of identity is not the law of identity?

That is a logical contradiction.

Same with your claim that Akuto creates an R>F hierarchy below the Afterlife using the “idea” of the R>F hierarchy of the Law of Identity as a base. If Akuto defines a hierarchy that is not equal to the hierarchy he is supposedly using as a conceptual reference, then that hierarchy is not equal. Basic logic.

If Akuto creates a false version of those concepts, then since they do not have the same qualities as the originals, they also do not have their scale or ontological value. That would not change the Afterlife’s tier at all and it would put the Law of Identity’s scaling in even more trouble.

What follows is essentially the same, so here is your answer. I am not going to get into an endless back and forth, and Shin also brought good points that completely dismantle the scaling of TLOI and of the Anti Universe.

We can wait for the staff to arrive and give their verdict.

 

[KLOL506]

@DontTalkDT Have fun

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

@DontTalkDT Have fun

Shouldn't you ping more staff than just him?

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Shouldn't you ping more staff than just him?

He's a knowledgeable member and a staff. I think it's fine tagging him first and seeing his thoughts on the CRT before more staff comment.

Anyway, will respond to you later today after work, like yesterday.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

He's a knowledgeable member and a staff. I think it's fine tagging him first and seeing his thoughts on the CRT before more staff comment.

Anyway, will respond to you later today after work, like yesterday.

I have no problem with pinging the only admin who actually supports the verse, but pinging only him is a problem in my eyes.

I would like everyone else to read and judge the discussion for what it is and to avoid any premature FRA trains.

Is that not what we do with literally every thread, or does Demon King Daimaou get special treatment?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

I have no problem with pinging the only admin who actually supports the verse, but pinging only him is a problem in my eyes.

I would like everyone else to read and judge the discussion for what it is and to avoid any premature FRA trains.

True.

@ActuallySpaceMan42 @FinePoint @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @Qawsedf234 @Vietthai96 @Reiner04
Your input here would be appreciated.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Is that not what we do with literally every thread, or does Demon King Daimaou get special treatment?

I remember a few instances of knowledgeable members being tagged in some CRTs who are listed. And I dont see an issue with pinging a single staff whose a knowledgeable member anyway, yeah. Since ultimately it won't change the fact that more people will have to evaluate it.

Also, you can message other staff members on their message walls for input if you want to, or KLOL can mass-tag others on your request if he wants to. Idk.

Edit: oblivion did it, there. Neat.

 

[Thermor]

I have no problem with pinging the only admin who actually supports the verse, but pinging only him is a problem in my eyes.

I would like everyone else to read and judge the discussion for what it is and to avoid any premature FRA trains.

Is that not what we do with literally every thread, or does Demon King Daimaou get special treatment?

I dont believe premature FRA trains would effect the outcome of the thread. It's better to ping a knowledgeble member first so staffs can evaluate all possible arguments during the thread.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Yeah whatever. They already got tagged, so everyone happy. Now lets wait.

 

[BoastJr]

Snip

Bro is summoning the Avengers

 

[SuperNova55555]

I do agree with you on that I'd like something new from your next response. So far, I think I have been correcting your misunderstandings, and doing a fine job at it. Let's try not to go in circles, and please don't selectively choose when life logs and data available to Akuto, and things outside of it, should be used to unreasonably limit possible worlds by the light novels own definitions of them.

I don't mean to be pedantic here, but can you just cash out the reason for High 1-A+? It feels like the justifications are being purposefully obfuscated at this point. It can't be them generating 'all possible worlds' now isn't it? Provided that we don't nitpick scans, given that the op has sent scans to justify that the structure that contains all possible worlds is closed under a larger structure.

That is, the framework that constitutes 'all possible worlds' is confined by a hierarchy beyond? Or is there a disagreement on that as well? Because if not, it causes an obvious modal collapse to the possible worlds being maximal. Especially if we assume that they are a set of all metaphysically possible worlds (with a strong modality like absolute alethic modality). Which is what High 1-A+ should be—because what comes next is just something beyond part-whole relationships, that being Actus Purus.

I've been reading the thread and seeing alot of arbitrary leaps when it comes to the justification. I hear LOI is High 1-A+ because she's a logical law and that it has to do with all possible worlds, just which one is it? A concise summary will help here. Because quite frankly I am hearing the supporters say they are clarifying the misunderstandings of op, but I myself still don't understand which part of the justification grounds High 1-A+ here.

So it's definitely not just the op. What of the blog as well? I'm just as curious as Shin in that regard, because the Blog seems to suggest otherwise like Bern said.

So, yeah. The Anti-Universe qualifies for being beyond all possible worlds because it transcends the entire modal framework of the Afterlife (and it's possible worlds), and it’s also High 1-A+ because that very transcendence corresponds to the tier: existing on a level beyond the totality of High 1-A meta-quality structures, and being created by a High 1-A (Type 2) being. In other words, it isn’t just above one world or system, but it stands outside the framework that defines all possible worlds and meta-qualities.

For example take this, rather than it be a justification, it sounds like it's just reasserting the belief that the position is true.

No, that isn’t the case here. All I’m doing is explaining what it means. After all, if this kind of contradiction existed, it wouldn’t have been accepted before. The blog or the profile doesn’t literally say the Afterlife can contain the hierarchy it’s part of, but since this kind of misunderstanding exists, I suppose we should add a note in the blog and slightly reword the profile. I wonder if, then, this CRT is based on a false premise to begin with.

And take this, instead of actually engaging with the arguments. It, again, assumes an authoritative position as the very truthmaker of the position. It just goes circular, doesn't engage meaningfully with the points of contention. So what's the reason for High 1-A+? Blogs have been accepted just to be later denounced? What exactly does the blog being accepted have to do with the potential for inconsistencies within the blog? And saying the CRT is based on a false premise is not productive altogether. The energy spent on trying to come of as authoritative, could be used to meaningful progress the discussion—rather than excessively reverting to the assumption that the people against the CRT are inherently correct.

In some ways its limited, but not in a way that goes against the current tiering. So, I still stand by my stance as explained above so far. I'm slightly repeating myself here, but, this doesn't really change anything as infinite combinations would still include all manner of worlds of different sizes and hierarchies, still perfectly within the definition of the light novel. For example, the light novel showcases possible worlds as an isekai, so with even finite characters, it hasn't affected the potential of an aforementioned cosmology like R>F. Why? Because ultimately you have to ignore the light novel's full definition of possible worlds to intentionally limit it.

This is the just an example of the justifications being seemingly intentionally obfuscated here. To acknowledge that they are limited, yet saying not in a way that goes against the current tiering. Without even establishing in what way do you accept them to be limited and in what way can they be limited without going against the current tiering.

As it stands right now, I'm probably leaning towards agreeing as well.

I'm slightly repeating myself here, but, this doesn't really change anything as infinite combinations would still include all manner of worlds of different sizes and hierarchies, still perfectly within the definition of the light novel. For example, the light novel showcases possible worlds as an isekai, so with even finite characters, it hasn't affected the potential of an aforementioned cosmology like R>F. Why? Because ultimately you have to ignore the light novel's full definition of possible worlds to intentionally limit it.

What's the definition of all possible worlds structurally or metaphysically? Because it's fundamentally true that a logical space based on finite atomic facts cannot be maximal. Because the finite atomic facts delimit its maximality. That is, possible worlds being unbounded in a totalitarianistic sense (High 1-A+)—cannot be delimited by finite atomic facts.

There's still no account for the ontology of possible worlds here, a set of all possible worlds is tiered on the basis of it's structural composition. Not on the basis of the fact that it is the set of all possible worlds. Shin even gives an apt example of this, with the Lewisian approach to modal realism.

 

[Robo432343]

agree
please make more threads like this

 

[SuperNova55555]

agree
please make more threads like this

Nothing more fun than seeing a king fall.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

In some ways its limited, but not in a way that goes against the current tiering. So, I still stand by my stance as explained above so far. I'm slightly repeating myself here, but, this doesn't really change anything as infinite combinations would still include all manner of worlds of different sizes and hierarchies, still perfectly within the definition of the light novel. For example, the light novel showcases possible worlds as an isekai, so with even finite characters, it hasn't affected the potential of an aforementioned cosmology like R>F. Why? Because ultimately you have to ignore the light novel's full definition of possible worlds to intentionally limit it.

Okay, after reading this, I mean, I think, sure, I suppose? It's broadly speaking, possible. However, not sure how far we're going with that kind of reasoning. Can High 1A+ even be thought of as a logical space with finite atomic facts?

It could be possible to circumvent that by taking the atomic facts to be unbounded in themselves, but that's harder to reconcile with logical space being unbounded and atomic facts being unbounded because atomic facts are brute and to be brute is thus to be determinate.

To be determinate is to be bounded one way or another. My gripe probably is just that, logical space in totalitarianism is so radical that propositions like 'logical space is not a space of all possibilities' are contained in logical space. What can be more of an atomic fact than the fact that logical space is itself? Logically speaking, logical space can only be that radically unbounded if it wasn't constrained to any specific atomic fact. Wittgenstein denies this. But some positions like this are actually explored in God, Mind, and Logical Space by contemporaries like Istvan Aranyosi.
By "unbounded", I mean what aforementioned Istvan Aranyosi does in the God, Mind and Logical Space. Specifically under the Logical Totalitarianism section:

“There is no Logical Space” and “Logical Space is not maximal”.1 Since the negation of any proposition is also in Logical Space, as it is closed under negation, the proposi-tions expressed by these sentences are also in Logical Space. So what follows is that the term “Logical Space” in these sentences will refer to something else than Logical Space itself. In other words, there is no way to “escape from” Logical Space. Next consider the sentence “There are no pro positions”. Logical Space is constructed via operations on propositions, but that does not mean that “There are no propositions” is not in logical space, because that there are no propositions is itself a proposition.

Something unlike the logical space of Tractatus Logical of Witgenstein, see now that one is more neat, smoother and constrained.

Reminds me of the difference between a higher dimensional space and a space of some cardinality C (Aleph 1), not in a quantitative but structural sense. Saying a logical space of finite atomic facts is High 1A+ is like saying higher dimensions have different cardinalities or their not higher dimensions. Regardless of how many infinities you stack (possible combinations of an n-dimensional space) through multiple configurations of n-dimensional space, the same way infinite parallel worlds, of some n-dimensional manifold, are not n+1 dimensional simply because they are infinite copies of n-dimensional space. It won't be n+1 dimensional lest it becomes unbounded by some additional axes.

Such that the additional axes don't have the measure 0 or isn't 0 of [0, 1]. You can have infinitely many combinations of the same atomic facts, but because they are discrete entities, saying that they are High 1A+ or the logical space (in a totalitarianistic sense) constituted by them is very strange, honestly. Even if it is granted that we are limiting the definition of possible worlds, it doesn't omit the contradiction at hand.

This is just an issue of differing interpretations and differing commitments to interpretations. Even if we limit the definition of the possible worlds in the novel, then that means the novel incorrectly postulates possible worlds as maximal. So I'd like to know, why should it be taken as High 1A+?

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I agree with OP.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

After reading the thread, I find the OP's arguments more convincing, so put me down for agree for now.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Good evening everyone. Apologies for being late, I had a busy last few days. Let's continue, shall we?

Spoiler: Answering ExcelsisBerny

Then you are basically conceding that TLOI is not High 1-A+.

The “modal framework” of the Afterlife is 1-A baseline as I explained above.

If the justification is partly possible worlds (which I have already refuted) and the fact that TLOI is “unreachable” (something that literally any character conceptually above a system also known as High 1-A is), then this is effectively High 1-A baseline.

This isn't the case. First of all, I would like to mention that this was talking about Anti-Universe an how it's description aligns with High 1-A+ (Type 1). The Law of Identity has it's own explanation for being High 1-A+ (Type 2) in the relevant segment of the explanation page.

Secondly, you didn't refute my Possible World's part, but instead you simply presuppose it's 1-A without answering my explanation, nor did you tackle anything relating to TLOI. Since you aren't actually answering me when I pointed out Anti-Universe and TLOI being beyond all possible meta-extensions and possible worlds within that system, all you end up doing is going in circles. You're just asserting baseline 1-A and High 1-A from the beginning as if this as settled fact, then you don't answer my explanations or breakdowns properly.

---

I honestly find it exhausting that you keep denying the obvious despite having posted evidence for it, but okay, let the staff decide what to do with that point, I suppose.

I think the issue now is you trapping yourself in a circle you supposedly tried to avoid. No less in a CRT I have alluded to being based on a false premise, but you simply try to assert that you're correct which is why you try to push forward for a quick evaluation without any proper explanations on page 1 of a tier 1 verse.

---

Here you are backtracking, because you and your friend literally agree that all the possible worlds of the Afterlife are limited to a tier below High 1-A+, and you also conceded above that the Afterlife is a closed system.

Therefore, that statement must necessarily be referring to every consistent proposition with respect to the limits of the framework in question, which is 1-A baseline.

Nothing new here.

Nope, nothing has been backtracked. Your scans proved that Akuto doesn't just create things that are limited to below Afterlife or his data. But, it doesn't matter since the argument for 1-A+ hierarchy creation exists within the data and language itself and in how the light novel defines possible worlds. It's kind of interesting, your own quote actually undermines your limitation.

Also, if I'm correct, this part of your response too only makes sense if you misunderstand what the explanation blog is saying, and what I've been breaking down for you. But, nothing new here.

---

I already answered this above. You should also read the reply Shin gave, which also goes against your idea.

You cannot accept that the logical system is limited and at the same time say that it is not...

You didn't answer this. I explained that it can be limited, but not in a way that changes the current tiering, and then went on to give an entire example and breakdown once more. You are now only dodging what I said, since you didn't answer it. A system can be limited ontologically without being limited modally.

Once again, you're creating a false binary and stick with it when I provided you with an explanation you now refuse to engage with.

---

You did not understand the purpose of that part of the message.

What I am explaining is that all the possibilities Akuto released are limited to the Afterlife system, so we are only talking about permutations that are inferior to the meta concept of the hierarchy of the law of identity. Therefore, it does not make sense to claim that the Afterlife surpasses 1-A baseline.

No, I understood it well and explained why it doesn't affect anything. You are once again presupposing the possibilities explained and attached to the Afterlife somehow affects the tiering. It doesn't. For this to work yo have to assert and work from the hierarchy of the Law of Identity needing to be 1-A+. The data and combinations that would stem from his knowledge and life logs would allow him to create all possible worlds, including the baseline for an R>F hierarchy. It works just fine within the series own definition of possible worlds. I can't add anything new if you refuse to engage my points and go into a circle you're saying you try to avoid.

---

They are "not limited to the logs" Akuto had in his mind, because that atomic information gave rise to more atomic information as the worlds formed and developed. That is what is meant when it says Akuto broke his internal barriers. That is the difference between him and the other Gods Universes.

That does not mean the Afterlife system itself is not limited. If what you mean is that Akuto did not restrict himself to using only the set of data he had at the beginning, then yes, that is obvious.

That’s not what the text says, though. The passage, pretty clearly IMO, states that “the tools for this universe weren’t limited to what was inside Akuto” and that “even the gods of the outer universe became part of the story.” That directly shows he drew from beyond his own internal data provided, and life logs. Not that his existing information somehow “generated more atomic information.” This is head-canon addition from you to preserve the claim of a closed system, which the text itself contradicts.

---

This does not make any sense whatsoever.

Are you telling me that Akuto could create something that is defined by its characteristics as immutable? How could Akuto write in his stories and designate an “individual” as the law of identity if that law of identity is not the law of identity?

That is a logical contradiction.

Same with your claim that Akuto creates an R>F hierarchy below the Afterlife using the “idea” of the R>F hierarchy of the Law of Identity as a base. If Akuto defines a hierarchy that is not equal to the hierarchy he is supposedly using as a conceptual reference, then that hierarchy is not equal. Basic logic.

If Akuto creates a false version of those concepts, then since they do not have the same qualities as the originals, they also do not have their scale or ontological value. That would not change the Afterlife’s tier at all and it would put the Law of Identity’s scaling in even more trouble.

Hmm, this is a categorical error from your side. I never said Akuto literally creates the original Law of Identity, only that he can fictionally represent or instantiate versions of it within his narrative framework up to the point of the Afterlifes stories.

You are treating a representational reference within his stories and the logical space as if it were an ontological claim applied to the broader hierarchy above, conflating symbolic depiction with literal creation. You missed my intent completely, the same way you missed the blogs explanation. You know, where you falsely misunderstand the premise as the explanation page saying we are literally saying the Afterlife contains the infinite meta-qualitative layers it is a part of. It is baseline meta-qualitative layer containing a 1-A+ hierarchy.

Anyway, while there has been a small delay on my response from when I said I'd respond, tomorrow I have more free time so I will focus on others who have attempted to contribute to the OP and have made responses to me I neglected so far. They don't change much, but no less I can't leave them be.

 

[ScrollerGNL]

Following. I was gonna wait for the next rebuttals against the CRT but nothing meaningful has been said so far, so I'm leaning towards agreeing

 

[Shiedaisthepeak]

My queen Bern made an thread!??!Agreed

 

[Qawsedf234]

Your input here would be appreciated.

Reading the OP and the counter arguments, my main takeaway is the following:

• The Anti-Universe and Void being High 1-A+ doesn't make sense, as you can be above all Logical Worlds. If heaven is High 1-A+ then nothing can be higher into High 1-A+, either it's Tier 0 or its not High 1-A+ in the first place.

And just to be clear, I’m not saying it’s utterly impossible to find structures that paradoxically self-contain, but first of all, those fictional verses have more than enough backing for that claim, and second, the logical framework used for DKD’s possible worlds is a classical one (there’s no evidence that it differs from a conventional classical logical framework), so this logical contradiction is completely impossible to manifest in the Afterlife based on the work’s own narrative.

High 1-A is about working on a Meta-Meta Framework. Where it's a space working one something different/conceptually superior to a R>F difference. Being more R>F isn't evidence for High 1-A, as that's still ultimately a progression of a Meta-Framework established in 1-A. The idea presented in the blog is the following:

Given the strict definition of possible worlds provided in the novel it follows that the Afterlife must also contain the infinite story hierarchies previously mentioned, since they, too, are logically possible. As a result, when Akuto creates all possible worlds, they must necessarily be included.

But it doesn't need to do so. A possible world isn't the same as all logical results. Being parallel to each other within a multiversal style event could also accomplish it without being an infinite recursive 1-A layer. The story needs to establish this rather than an assumption being made.

Going through it I'm sorta for 1-A+ Afterline and the Anti-Universe being High 1-A, but having said that I'm more swayed by @StorytellingDemonKing 's points about TLoI's nature and rating, which leads to me believe that she's should still probably remain High 1-A+.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Snip

Your assessment is appreciated. Although, I want to add that I'll make a more detailed post regarding some things tomorrow and hopefully clear up as to why the Afterlife can still be High 1-A, since so far I've only tried to passively defend the blog and explain what I see as misconceptions around it.

 

[Tzimtzumim]

already had issues with this and have seen this talked about on discord, so i agree.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I will respond to the long message later; I would just like to clarify something quickly.

Going through it I'm sorta for 1-A+ Afterline and the Anti-Universe being High 1-A

The Afterlife cannot be 1-A+ because it is simply a single layer of an infinite collection of systems. In the messages above so far I've explained why the baseline system cannot exceed baseline 1-A. I am not sure how you ultimately reached the 1-A+ conclusion. What should be 1-A+ is the entire collection of systems, the hierarchy that comprises the Afterlife, which would make the Anti Universe at baseline High 1-A make sense.

but having said that I'm more swayed by @StorytellingDemonKing 's points about TLoI's nature and rating, which leads to me believe that she's should still probably remain High 1-A+.

The High 1-A+ scaling of the law of identity is actually the most refuted point in the thread.

The supporters’ arguments are that it is an “immutable law,” that it is “unreachable,” and that it is above “all possible worlds.”

The last claim is useless because those “possible worlds” are limited to a closed system, and the other two properties do not make necessarily something High 1-A+ in the slightest.

Shin and Nova made posts that completely refuted the logic that the character is High 1-A+ just for representing a logical principle too, and they did not receive a response:

I just need to preface this, but logical laws by necessity are applicable to every single fictional framework. It's already implicit that the story is itself and all characters are identical to themselves, because laws of thought are implicitly necessary for self-reference and reflexive identity relations. If it is the case that a character embodies reflexivity or the law of identity. It does not appropriate any ontology altogether, because the statement 'A=A' doesn't convey anything meaningful (is empty), lest it is specified what ontology constitutes A.

Furthermore, it's strange that anybody would think the laws of thought are High 1A+ inherently. What of the positions of logical laws as prescriptive? The position doesn't appropriate ontology whatsoever and only considers the necessity of logical laws, with respect to their necessity for rationale. That's why we can meaningfully speak of Tier 0 as itself; it cannot be beyond the law of identity, because even Pure Act appropriates self-reflexivity through the unity of Esse and Essence. Well, in a way, you can say it's a symmetric relation of A and B, essence and to be (Being). If it is the case that laws of thought are High 1A+ by necessity, in what sense are we talking about here? Because the story doesn't establish any ontology beyond self-reflexivity, that would suggest that it's High 1A+. At best, you get a measure of LOI's ontology by its relation to the cosmology, because there's absolutely nothing specific here enough for it to be High 1A+ inherently. So that's not a get outta jail card. As Berny made it clear, the story suggests that Akuto has access to a finite set of atomic facts. Of which infinite combinations are constructed, this is completely against the view of logical space as a totalitarianistic sense. It makes logical space discrete, which denounces contradictory propositions like the fact that Logical Space is not the space of all possibilities.

As a proposition reducible to the structure of logical space. So you can't defend the capacity for contradictions like “the afterlife is closed and bounded under a higher structure” as reducible to “the afterlife contains the proposition of it being closed and bounded under a higher structure”.
So that's not a get out of jail card too, because atomic facts, which are brute within the logical space, are not unbounded but finite and bounded. It should also be important to note that “all possible worlds” being generated shouldn't have been an instant jump to High 1A+ as well. Because we know philosophers like David Lewis are materialists, that is reflected in their approach to modal realism. His possible worlds are bounded in his postulation of their concrete nature by necessity; that type of modal realism (which, mind you, there are many types) doesn't even seem to be fit for 1A. Let alone High 1A+ lol, so it's surprising to me that these issues are treated as light when they are more intricate than made out to be.

The structure of 'all possible worlds' matters more than the statement 'has all possible worlds'. So naturally, I agree with the downgrade, unless there's anything new that's meaningfully added here. But it seems the argument has taken a different light than as presented in the blog. Which is confusing now. Is this accepted somewhere else? Or?

I don't mean to be pedantic here, but can you just cash out the reason for High 1-A+? It feels like the justifications are being purposefully obfuscated at this point. It can't be them generating 'all possible worlds' now isn't it? Provided that we don't nitpick scans, given that the op has sent scans to justify that the structure that contains all possible worlds is closed under a larger structure.

That is, the framework that constitutes 'all possible worlds' is confined by a hierarchy beyond? Or is there a disagreement on that as well? Because if not, it causes an obvious modal collapse to the possible worlds being maximal. Especially if we assume that they are a set of all metaphysically possible worlds (with a strong modality like absolute alethic modality). Which is what High 1-A+ should be—because what comes next is just something beyond part-whole relationships, that being Actus Purus.

I've been reading the thread and seeing alot of arbitrary leaps when it comes to the justification. I hear LOI is High 1-A+ because she's a logical law and that it has to do with all possible worlds, just which one is it? A concise summary will help here. Because quite frankly I am hearing the supporters say they are clarifying the misunderstandings of op, but I myself still don't understand which part of the justification grounds High 1-A+ here.

So it's definitely not just the op. What of the blog as well? I'm just as curious as Shin in that regard, because the Blog seems to suggest otherwise like Bern said.


For example take this, rather than it be a justification, it sounds like it's just reasserting the belief that the position is true.


And take this, instead of actually engaging with the arguments. It, again, assumes an authoritative position as the very truthmaker of the position. It just goes circular, doesn't engage meaningfully with the points of contention. So what's the reason for High 1-A+? Blogs have been accepted just to be later denounced? What exactly does the blog being accepted have to do with the potential for inconsistencies within the blog? And saying the CRT is based on a false premise is not productive altogether. The energy spent on trying to come of as authoritative, could be used to meaningful progress the discussion—rather than excessively reverting to the assumption that the people against the CRT are inherently correct.


This is the just an example of the justifications being seemingly intentionally obfuscated here. To acknowledge that they are limited, yet saying not in a way that goes against the current tiering. Without even establishing in what way do you accept them to be limited and in what way can they be limited without going against the current tiering.

As it stands right now, I'm probably leaning towards agreeing as well.

I'm slightly repeating myself here, but, this doesn't really change anything as infinite combinations would still include all manner of worlds of different sizes and hierarchies, still perfectly within the definition of the light novel. For example, the light novel showcases possible worlds as an isekai, so with even finite characters, it hasn't affected the potential of an aforementioned cosmology like R>F. Why? Because ultimately you have to ignore the light novel's full definition of possible worlds to intentionally limit it.

What's the definition of all possible worlds structurally or metaphysically? Because it's fundamentally true that a logical space based on finite atomic facts cannot be maximal. Because the finite atomic facts delimit its maximality. That is, possible worlds being unbounded in a totalitarianistic sense (High 1-A+)—cannot be delimited by finite atomic facts.

There's still no account for the ontology of possible worlds here, a set of all possible worlds is tiered on the basis of it's structural composition. Not on the basis of the fact that it is the set of all possible worlds. Shin even gives an apt example of this, with the Lewisian approach to modal realism.

Okay, after reading this, I mean, I think, sure, I suppose? It's broadly speaking, possible. However, not sure how far we're going with that kind of reasoning. Can High 1A+ even be thought of as a logical space with finite atomic facts?

It could be possible to circumvent that by taking the atomic facts to be unbounded in themselves, but that's harder to reconcile with logical space being unbounded and atomic facts being unbounded because atomic facts are brute and to be brute is thus to be determinate.

To be determinate is to be bounded one way or another. My gripe probably is just that, logical space in totalitarianism is so radical that propositions like 'logical space is not a space of all possibilities' are contained in logical space. What can be more of an atomic fact than the fact that logical space is itself? Logically speaking, logical space can only be that radically unbounded if it wasn't constrained to any specific atomic fact. Wittgenstein denies this. But some positions like this are actually explored in God, Mind, and Logical Space by contemporaries like Istvan Aranyosi.
By "unbounded", I mean what aforementioned Istvan Aranyosi does in the God, Mind and Logical Space. Specifically under the Logical Totalitarianism section:




Something unlike the logical space of Tractatus Logical of Witgenstein, see now that one is more neat, smoother and constrained.

Reminds me of the difference between a higher dimensional space and a space of some cardinality C (Aleph 1), not in a quantitative but structural sense. Saying a logical space of finite atomic facts is High 1A+ is like saying higher dimensions have different cardinalities or their not higher dimensions. Regardless of how many infinities you stack (possible combinations of an n-dimensional space) through multiple configurations of n-dimensional space, the same way infinite parallel worlds, of some n-dimensional manifold, are not n+1 dimensional simply because they are infinite copies of n-dimensional space. It won't be n+1 dimensional lest it becomes unbounded by some additional axes.

Such that the additional axes don't have the measure 0 or isn't 0 of [0, 1]. You can have infinitely many combinations of the same atomic facts, but because they are discrete entities, saying that they are High 1A+ or the logical space (in a totalitarianistic sense) constituted by them is very strange, honestly. Even if it is granted that we are limiting the definition of possible worlds, it doesn't omit the contradiction at hand.

This is just an issue of differing interpretations and differing commitments to interpretations. Even if we limit the definition of the possible worlds in the novel, then that means the novel incorrectly postulates possible worlds as maximal. So I'd like to know, why should it be taken as High 1A+?

So I am wondering how exactly TLOI being High 1-A+ makes sense.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The Afterlife cannot be 1-A+ because it is simply a single layer of an infinite collection of systems. In the messages above so far I've explained why the baseline system cannot exceed baseline 1-A. I am not sure how you ultimately reached the 1-A+ conclusion. What should be 1-A+ is the entire collection of systems, the hierarchy that comprises the Afterlife, which would make the Anti Universe at baseline High 1-A make sense.

I wasn't referring to the Afterlife as a singular realm as being 1-A+. I agree with you that the entire realm looked like its 1-A+ in total, but its not layers of 1-A+ contained in an inherently superior framework.

The High 1-A+ scaling of the law of identity is actually the most refuted point in the thread.

I read your points, I just lean more towards DemonKing for LoI's rating. Being above a High 1-A already shows the ability to create Meta-Meta Hierarchies, and I view her existence as being enough that rating when the existing tier is taken into account. The main thing I see going against it for the rating is the limitation of atomic facts/scenarios but a lower realm of cosmology being limited to that doesn't mean she would be necessarily.