Tier 0 proposal for Chronicles Of Darkness

[Sharlenii]

Good Morning/Afternoon Evening Vsbw technically I will be proposaling another tier 0 verse which is CofD.
Verse Page:

Chronicles Of Darkness

vsbattles.fandom.com

The Supreme Being Page:

God (Chronicles of Darkness)

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Vietthai96]

So Chronicles of Darkness is sequel World of Darkness or something entirely different?

Nonexistent Physiology and Creation

Nonexistent Physiology have Nature Type and Aspect Type, you should list them

Transduality (Type 4.)

There is no transduality type 4, max is type 3

Acausality (Type 5 - God is beyond the undifferentiated and differentiated duality.)

This should't be justification for Aca 5, the justification is talking about duality

Tier 0 and other statistics is fine

 

[Sharlenii]

So Chronicles of Darkness is sequel World of Darkness or something entirely different?


Nonexistent Physiology have Nature Type and Aspect Type, you should list them


There is no transduality type 4, max is type 3


This should't be justification for Aca 5, the justification is talking about duality

Tier 0 and other statistics is fine

1. They are different canon CofD is just rebooted or a new version of WoD.

2. Alright

3. Will fix this

4. Alright

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

So Chronicles of Darkness is sequel World of Darkness or something entirely different?

no entirely different gameline. Garou, kindred and other such stuff work different there.

 

[Vietthai96]

no entirely different gameline. Garou, kindred and other such stuff work different there.

Oke i guess

 

[Robo432343]

agree
another boring tier 0 addition

 

[SuperNova55555]

This seems very obvious

 

[Re5yh]

• Omnipotence, Omnipresence & Omniscience (Ein Sof is infinite and omnipresent all encompassing Godhead, all that was God, and God was all that was.<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Sharlenii/God_(Chronicles_of_Darkness)#cite_note-:1-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a>)

You should most likely remove the information of this and put Omnipotence, Omnipresence and Omniscient above the P&A replace the information with this: Specific applications include:

Anyways, Agree

 

[Mythic381]

Agree.

 

[Mythic381]

another boring tier 0 addition

every tier 0 addition is boring.

 

[Sharlenii]

Just need 2 votes

 

[Sharlenii]

(yall could ping other staff to evaluate if you could)

 

[Vietthai96]

@Qawsedf234 @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless

Sorry for the ping but your helps is appreciated

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

NEP requires clearly defined aspects, and the current justification isn’t sufficient for Type 2. Also, the periods in the Type labels should be removed. In addition, AE shouldn’t be automatically assumed given with Omnipotence; it needs to have a proper reasoning. Honestly, most of the abilities currently included don’t need to be there since they’re already covered under Omnipotence’s page, but I digress.

That said, I really hope people don’t start flooding the site with bare-bones Tier 0 pages.

 

[Mythic381]

and the current justification isn’t sufficient for Type 2

It being beyond existence and non-existence isn't sufficient for nature type 2?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

It being beyond existence and non-existence isn't sufficient for nature type 2?

They still need to be nonexistent. Not that it matters, since Omnipotence auto gives NEP.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Sorry for the ping but your helps is appreciated

The main issue I have is I'm note entirely sure what separates High 1-A+ and 0. It's probably one of those two.

That said, I really hope people don’t start flooding the site with bare-bones Tier 0 pages.

I feel like you can do more with it. The Essential Divinity, The Presence, and Eru all have more substance to their P&A stuff than what the OP is currently showing.

 

[Udlmaster]

I can't check the images because my government is trash and I hate them.

I'll double check the books, but from what I know of CofD, it's correct to a degree. I can't say the books ever say that Ein Soph, The Dao and God are all the same thing. In the Spiritual Hierarchy section of Mage the Awakening it seems to imply that The Unmoved Mover and Ein Soph are distinct entities.

Generally fine with it, though I will double check myself first.

 

[Apotheosis69]

That said, I really hope people don’t start flooding the site with bare-bones Tier 0 pages.

Can you define "bare-bones" here? Cus when JttW comes, expect A LOOOOT of Tier 0 pages

I feel like you can do more with it. The Essential Divinity, The Presence, and Eru all have more substance to their P&A stuff than what the OP is currently showing.

Tbh The Essential Divinity page is still super outdated, besides its Tiering ofc. As pretty much everything in its P&A is the literal standard for practically everything in the verse.

Its basically just gonna be

Omnipotence, Omnipresence and Omniscience: Specific applications include but not limited to True Magick from Mages, Discipline from Garou, all Godheads and the Supernal

Thats really it

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Can you define "bare-bones" here? Cus when JttW comes, expect A LOOOOT of Tier 0 pages

When the only notable things on the profiles are their AP Reasoning, and they have nothing else going for them.

 

[Udlmaster]

When the only notable things on the profiles are their AP Reasoning, and they have nothing else going for them.

To be fair, at those levels, there basically is no distinction between their AP reasoning and anything else about them.

Kinda why my description for Gaia and the Triat basically had their AP and their Hax bleed into each other due to how their natures worked.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

To be fair, at those levels, there basically is no distinction between their AP reasoning and anything else about them.

I would say it depends on the media. There's plenty where the Tier 0 actually has at least statements for cool abilities, mostly in novels, though.

 

[Sharlenii]

I can't check the images because my government is trash and I hate them.

I'll double check the books, but from what I know of CofD, it's correct to a degree. I can't say the books ever say that Ein Soph, The Dao and God are all the same thing. In the Spiritual Hierarchy section of Mage the Awakening it seems to imply that The Unmoved Mover and Ein Soph are distinct entities.

Generally fine with it, though I will double check myself first.

As far as I remember The Tao, Ein Sof and etc... were more like interpretation or face of God tho it unclear whenever they are different or smth. @Udlmaster

As for the unmoved mover kinda confused me about that since they imply The Unmoved Mover or The Prime Mover to be the supreme being tho it would likely be refer to Keter who was in charge of emanating the entire creation.

 

[Vietthai96]

When the only notable things on the profiles are their AP Reasoning, and they have nothing else going for them.

I agree with this, flooding the wiki with tier 0 profile with barebone P&A section is unnecessary, like at point, every tier 0 profile have similar justification to the point we can call them clones at this point

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I agree with this, flooding the wiki with tier 0 profile with barebone P&A section is unnecessary, like at point, every tier 0 profile have similar justification to the point we can call them clones at this point

I mean that's just kinda how tier 0 is... It's all basically the same thing. Tier 0 isn't really an exclusive club and if you can make a proper profile for it that covers everything then it should be good enough.

 

[Robo432343]

I agree with this, flooding the wiki with tier 0 profile with barebone P&A section is unnecessary, like at point, every tier 0 profile have similar justification to the point we can call them clones at this point

you can't just refuse to accept a profile addition for being tier 0...

 

[Wesker018]

agree with robot932813 and MacdonaldScaler

 

[Vietthai96]

you can't just refuse to accept a profile addition for being tier 0...

I don't refuse, i just want to point out my opinion regarding the pratice of flooding the wiki with barebone tier 0 profile

 

[Mythic381]

I agree with this, flooding the wiki with tier 0 profile with barebone P&A section is unnecessary, like at point, every tier 0 profile have similar justification to the point we can call them clones at this point

To be fair, that's just an issue with tier 0 itself, all characters are basically described the same.

 

[Udlmaster]

As for the unmoved mover kinda confused me about that since they imply The Unmoved Mover or The Prime Mover to be the supreme being tho it would likely be refer to Keter who was in charge of emanating the entire creation.

I think it would be more appropriate given the "Storyteller decides" vibe that they be relegated to High 1-A, possibly 0.

Sounds absurd, but these are presented as possible 0s (Ein Soph, the Dao, Buddha, Brahman, etc.) so "possibly 0" is a valid tier here since it could be them or it might be another.

Also, WoD is usually fairly... useless when it comes to describing Omnipotent entities, as even in Demon the Fallen where it presents a heavily-Christian leaning story, God still has limitations (such as its fear for the Void) and from what I remember of my reading of nWoD, it was much the same, with there being stated to be several "Supreme Ones" and it's largely left up to the ST to decide.

 

[Zenith_Enigma]

To be fair, that's just an issue with tier 0 itself, all characters are basically described the same.

Exactly

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I agree with this, flooding the wiki with tier 0 profile with barebone P&A section is unnecessary, like at point, every tier 0 profile have similar justification to the point we can call them clones at this point

Honestly, I find this argument rather uncompelling. Tier 0 pages are barebones by their nature because the same 5-6 powers apply to all of them, this isn't due to the fault of the pages or the wiki. We are an indexing site, not a 'tier 0 pages should be special and unique' site.

 

[Udlmaster]

I will say, there is no point to not having a "barebones" P&A for tier 0s, as Tier 0s cannot engage in a VS fight. It serves literally no purpose other than to be fluff and padding on a page to have an extensive, highly detailed P&A.

A tier 0 having virtually little information is fine in contrast to other characters in the series and extrapolations on the Tier 0s abilities can be made from that, but it's pointless to list anything other than the necessary parts.

 

[Vietthai96]

It isn't even argument, it is opinion, like what?, i just want to say my opinion about people potentially flooding the wiki with tier 0 profile unnecessarily. I didn't even rejected this profile at all, even accepted the profile, did you guys find any comment about me reject the profile because tier 0 profile is barebone or other stuff?

Honestly, I find this argument rather uncompelling. Tier 0 pages are barebones by their nature because the same 5-6 powers apply to all of them, this isn't due to the fault of the pages or the wiki. We are an indexing site, not a 'tier 0 pages should be special and unique' site.

I know it is tier 0 thing to be similar, even 1:1 when it come to their justification, the problem isn't about the site, or the supposedly characters, but at least should have some distinctions to make relevant profile, just because the wiki is an indexing site, doesn't mean we should indexing every "clone"

Again, it is just my opinion, doesn't stop you guys from adding mode tier 0 profiles

 

[Udlmaster]

just because the wiki is an indexing site, doesn't mean we should indexing every "clone"

I've never really thought this to be true. What the wiki is, is in the name. VSB. "Vs battle". The wiki has always been about characters fighting each other first, the indexing is the fallout of it needing consistency rather than people restarting the same arguments.

When series become too volatile or caustic to keep around, they're simply removed against the idea of indexing. Not because they cause any issue with indexing, but often because of how they're used in VS fights.

Point being, I don't think there is any true baseline for a Tier 0's P&A, mostly because it doesn't mean anything. They already have unlimited power.

It isn't even argument, it is opinion, like what?, i just want to say my opinion about people potentially flooding the wiki with tier 0 profile unnecessarily. I didn't even rejected this profile at all, even accepted the profile, did you guys find any comment about me reject the profile because tier 0 profile is barebone or other stuff?

I know it's your opinion, but when you state your opinion, people will engage with it. No one just gets to throw their opinion out there and not expect people to discuss it and voice their own opinions.

I don't think it's conducive to get upset when people are weighing the pros and cons of your opinion.

 

[Vietthai96]

I've never really thought this to be true. What the wiki is, is in the name. VSB. "Vs battle". The wiki has always been about characters fighting each other first, the indexing is the fallout of it needing consistency rather than people restarting the same arguments.

No, not really, because in order to put characters into a fight, we need to have them have profile to index first, or else we could just throwing in random characters into a battle and start making wild claim about them without proof

When series become too volatile or caustic to keep around, they're simply removed against the idea of indexing. Not because they cause any issue with indexing, but often because of how they're used in VS fights

No, again, not really, we revises profiles almost every day, verses only get removed in case they are too outdates and there is no one left to maintaining them, or in some extreme cases, cause massive drama and unrest, though they are still allowed to come back

We have alot of profile that is, not usable in combat due to reason, can't put in a vs match yet we still have their profiles

I know it's your opinion, but when you state your opinion, people will engage with it. No one just gets to throw their opinion out there and not expect people to discuss it and voice their own opinions.

I don't think it's conducive to get upset when people are weighing the pros and cons of your opinion.

I'm not upset, i just confused because people was treating my opinion as an actual argument that somehow mean i was rejecting the profile or any tier 0

 

[Udlmaster]

No, not really, because in order to put characters into a fight, we need to have them have profile to index first, or else we could just throwing in random characters into a battle and start making wild claim about them without proof

...How do you think VS debates happen before and off VSB?

No, again, not really, we revises profiles almost every day, verses only get removed in case they are too outdates and there is no one left to maintaining them, or in some extreme cases, cause massive drama and unrest, though they are still allowed to come back

And the big ones were:

Barny the Dinosaur, where people were spamming matchups for him.

Shinza Bansho, where people would lie about their statistics to make them win VS matchups.

SCP, lying about statistics and hax to win matchups again.

I also didn't say that Verses being too caustic or volatile are the only reasons, simply that these are reasons in the past for removing verses which would go against a purely "indexing" idea.

We have alot of profile that is, not usable in combat due to reason, can't put in a vs match yet we still have their profiles

From my understanding, characters like that, such as Ajimu Najimi, are only included for completeness' sake, with the backdrop that other characters in the series are able to be engaged in a Matchup. I'm also sure that Ajimu Najimi's profile has come under fire and nearly been deleted several times because it serves no purpose.

Ff there was a whole verse of un-fightable beings, then I've never seen it and it would likely be removed for obvious reasons.

I'm not upset, i just confused because people was treating my opinion as an actual argument that somehow mean i was rejecting the profile or any tier 0

I mean... what did you expect putting it on the thread?

 

[Vietthai96]

...How do you think VS debates happen before and off VSB?

Off-site and other sites debate is.....well, let not walk into that hell

 

[Sharlenii]

I think it would be more appropriate given the "Storyteller decides" vibe that they be relegated to High 1-A, possibly 0.

Sounds absurd, but these are presented as possible 0s (Ein Soph, the Dao, Buddha, Brahman, etc.) so "possibly 0" is a valid tier here since it could be them or it might be another.

Also, WoD is usually fairly... useless when it comes to describing Omnipotent entities, as even in Demon the Fallen where it presents a heavily-Christian leaning story, God still has limitations (such as its fear for the Void) and from what I remember of my reading of nWoD, it was much the same, with there being stated to be several "Supreme Ones" and it's largely left up to the ST to decide.

I don't see how possible 0 should work

I don't understand where you get Buddha and Brahman being tier 0 when they are only The Supernal Gods which they ascended it aka ascension or nirvana not even above it (unless if you could argue The Supernal to tier 0). God is the only one that is above The Supernal also I'm pretty sure the book already told you that Ein Sof, The Tao are just another in interpretations of God they are nondual as well so it wouldn't make any sense if they were discrete entities.

Tho base on my view of the hierarchy for the verse
1. God
2. Keter/The Supernal/Nirvana/The Unmoved Mover/Buddha/Brahman/The Exarchs/Ain Soph Aur
3. The Supernal World
4. The Supernal Realm
5. The Abyss
6. The Fallen World

Just because God doesn't touch upon those creatures doesn't mean that he fear them. @Udlmaster

 

[Udlmaster]

I don't see how possible 0 should work

As any of them could be the (read: Possible) Tier 0, but that condition is decided by the ST.

(unless if you could argue The Supernal to tier 0)

I would actually find the highest extents of the Supernal, or rather, it's true source "The Empyrean", to be more likely to be the Tier 0.

I don't understand where you get Buddha and Brahman being tier 0 when they are only The Supernal Gods

Nirvana, Brahman (Brahman is the Ultimate Reality, you might be thinking of Brahma, the Hindu God of Creation) and Heaven are all said to be the Empyrean;

(I can't use Imgur anymore because my Government is trash and they should feel bad):

Confronted with a mutable Supernal, archmasters postulate that there must be an eternal, immutable causal plane beyond it: a Heaven, Nirvana, or Principle that fuels the Supernal with raw, undifferentiated meaning. Conservatives say that such a theory is unnecessary, given that the Supernal can-not be accurately perceived by any means short of Ascension, and may be truly pure under some veil of illusion. It is even said that some paths to Ascension bypass the Supernal and being mages in accord with this true World Above — an idea Seekers invested in the Golden Road treat with disdain or curiosity.

Tho base on my view of the hierarchy for the verse
1. God
2. Keter/The Supernal/Nirvana/The Unmoved Mover/Buddha/Brahman/The Exarchs/Ain Soph Aur
3. The Supernal World
4. The Supernal Realm
5. The Abyss
6. The Fallen World

I'm not sure why you'd have "God" at the top when he's included in the below.

I'm also not sure why you have the Supernal twice, as I imagine by "Supernal Realm" you mean things like the Emanation Realms, but I'm not sure what you differentiate between "The Supernal World" and "The Supernal"

From what I've seen "Supernal World" is either used to refer to The Supernal or to realms within the Supernal itself.

Just because God doesn't touch upon those creatures doesn't mean that he fear them. @Udlmaster

Wrong God. I'm referring to the same writers but for oWoD in Demon the Fallen (not Demon the Descent) where the capital G, Christian God is used but despite their Omnipotence they still fear the Void.

Basically showing that even when they do describe potentially Omnipotent beings, they have shown in the past that they will still provide limitations regardless.