Minor Dragon Ball Upgrade

[LegendariumOfLies]

Master Level Ki Users should get Resistance to Pain Manipulation based on this statement from Chiaotzu

(Full Page Here - Dragon Ball Chapter 216 OR Dragon Ball Z Chapter 22)

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Master Level Ki Users should get Resistance to Paralysis Inducement based on this statement from Chiaotzu

(Full Page Here - Dragon Ball Chapter 216 OR Dragon Ball Z Chapter 22)

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

Just a quick question, is there a reason why we assume it's specifically paralysis and not telekinesis?

Since it specificly mentions powers, would this not mean all of his "techniques, and include both, or would it just be power nullififcation?

Edit - Looking into it, it seems more fitting to be more feats for this ability already on the page.

Limited Attack Nullification (At this level, ki users can suppress and nullify attacks.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Just a quick question, is there a reason why we assume it's specifically paralysis and not telekinesis?

Since it specificly mentions powers, would this not mean all of his "techniques, and include both, or would it just be power nullififcation?

Edit - Looking into it, it seems more fitting to be more feats for this ability already on the page.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I don't see how that proves or disprove anything?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Just a quick question, is there a reason why we assume it's specifically paralysis and not telekinesis?

Since it specificly mentions powers, would this not mean all of his "techniques, and include both, or would it just be power nullififcation?

Edit - Looking into it, it seems more fitting to be more feats for this ability already on the page.

Are you assuming this is power level based? Because as far as I'm aware there is nothing in the franchise indicating said powers are power level-based, especially given a psychic like Freeza can successfully paralyse GoD Toppo in base form. And that's after taking a realm-warping Hakai.

More specifically, Telekinesis or 'Psychokinesis' is classified as 'psychic power' in the Daizenshuu which also clarifies that Freeza's Imprisonment Ball is an advanced combination of 'psychic power' and 'energy power', distinguishing the two forces. So conflating feats of 'psychic power' with power levels doesn't really make sense here. And yes, we would think Chiaotzu is using psychic power for his paralysis because Chiaozu's entire specialty and emphasis is on his psychic abilities.

So in short, a character being able to nullify an energy blast is not even remotely equivalent to being immune to psychic powers.

Edit - And for further clarification, Chiaotzu does officially have Paralysis. Which is also listed on his profile (but the link to the feat is dead lol) so when Chiaotzu says something like "My powers aren't working" it would be natural to include his Paralysis in that. Especially given his Paralysis is achieved in an identical pose (as Legendarium illustrated)

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

I agree with the crt

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Goku, who was significantly more powerful than General Blue, could be restrained by his Psychic Eyes.
Gohan and Krillin, who were so much more powerful than Guldo that they could speedblitz him in-between Time Freezes, could be paralyzed by his Psychokinesis.
A Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, whose base Battle Power far surpassed Shin's, could be held back by his telekinetic powers.

I don't see why this would apply to all Master-level Ki users, considering characters are completely helpless against telekinesis more often than they are unaffected.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So I checked the Daizenshuu section for this ability

Paralysis Arts
First Appearance: Chapter 77
Category: special
People: Jacky Chun, General Blue, Chaozu, Gurudo, Kaioshin
Special Characteristics: A technique that prevents the opponent from moving their body. Depending on the user, the method of using it and its effect are completely different. General Blue’s version was only effective against a single opponent. It took effect when his opponent stared into his eyes. Chaozu held out both his hands, causing stomach pain in the targeted person that stopped them from moving. Jacky’s technique was said to poke a pressure point on the forehead, paralyzing the person’s motor nerves. Gurudo stopped Krillin and Son Gohan’s movement through psychokinesis that he fired from his hands, and his version was effective against multiple people. Also, Kaioshin’s technique was a powerful one that completely stopped Super Saiya-jin Gohan from moving. (Daizenshuu 2, pp.205-206/Daizenshuu 4, p.69, 117)

This doesn't fit the wiki's definition of Paralysis manipulation

The ability to completely stop the movement of another's body. Paralysis may be partial, impacting only select portions of the body, or full, disallowing movement entirely.

Usually only shown as paralysis of skeletal muscle or other equivalent structures responsible for locomotion. However, more extreme examples can lead to the stopping of critical internal structures, such as the lungs or the heart, potentially leading to death.

This ability may be its own power, or it may come as a result of the user having any of these abilities:

This feels more like biological or pain manipulation going by textual evidence

 

[CryoTheMayo]

So I checked the Daizenshuu section for this ability

This doesn't fit the wiki's definition of Paralysis manipulation

This feels more like biological or pain manipulation going by textual evidence

I suppose I can agree with this take on the matter. I'd lean more towards Biological Manipulation given the context suggests to me that Chiaotzu is using his powers to manipulate Krillin's stomach. But I can see why someone would go with Pain Manipulation instead.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

So I checked the Daizenshuu section for this ability

This doesn't fit the wiki's definition of Paralysis manipulation

This feels more like biological or pain manipulation going by textual evidence

I think Pain Manip is more likely. Chiaotzu is using his TK to crush Krillin's Organs, not changing the biological make up of it.

Goku, who was significantly more powerful than General Blue, could be restrained by his Psychic Eyes.

Kid Goku wasn't a Master Ki User at the time.

Gohan and Krillin, who were so much more powerful than Guldo that they could speedblitz him in-between Time Freezes, could be paralyzed by his Psychokinesis.
A Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, whose base Battle Power far surpassed Shin's, could be held back by his telekinetic powers.

Layers and Potency.

I don't see why this would apply to all Master-level Ki users, considering characters are completely helpless against telekinesis more often than they are unaffected.

Because we have a direct statement from Chiaotzu saying otherwise.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Characters can bypass the effect of Telekinesis simply by having greater Lifting Strength, not necessarily resistance. Given the paralysis inducement is based on Chiaotzu's Telekinesis, and the already mentioned anti-feats of actual resistance, this feels more like a LS feat.

Regarding Pain Manipulation, if it's done by using their TK to crush the stomach, then I don't think it should be put as such, but as Durability Negation. Similar to how other characters like Garou and Tatsumaki from OPM have it.

That being said, I think it was accepted that higher Ki lets the user resists internal damage, so this could be used as supporting evidence for it.

Strangely enough, Nappa has Unknown LS, maybe it was not updated? Anyway, he should scale to Chiaotzu's LS.

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

i think i agree with this but i'm gonna listen to more of people's points

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Forgot this existed. BUMP

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

I think someone brought this into the DBS official discussison thread and one staff disagreed with it. Iirc it was @Maverick_Zero_X, though maybe I'm misremembering.

Edit: Found it, it was @Damage3245

Same character in their pfp made me misremember

Uh that has do with Ki not Pain Manip

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Wait, I thought this thread was the layered Ki Sensing lmao, mb

 

[STILTHKING_OCL]

Master Level Ki Users should get Resistance to Pain Manipulation based on this statement from Chiaotzu

(Full Page Here - Dragon Ball Chapter 216 OR Dragon Ball Z Chapter 22)
This is acceptable ig
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

Master Level Ki Users should get Resistance to Pain Manipulation based on this statement from Chiaotzu

(Full Page Here - Dragon Ball Chapter 216 OR Dragon Ball Z Chapter 22)

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

I agree

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Minor Bump.

 

[UnoRebaixadO]

very simple, huh? I agree

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Looks good.

 

[Vietthai96]

The thread is fine

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm still fine with pain manipulation

 

[SamanPatou]

It wouldn't really be Pain Manipulation because Chiaotzu was inducing a stomach ache into Krillin, which would fall under Biological Manipulation.
Anyway, telekinesis and psychic abilities in general are very weird and honestly inconsistent in Dragon Ball; aside form the examples provided above, we also have Zamasu restricting SSJB Goku with his godly telekinesis.
I'd rather just keep this specific instance, with the saiyans, under the generic "power nullification" provided by our Ki page.

 

[Vietthai96]

we also have Zamasu restricting SSJB Goku with his godly telekinesis.

Fusion Zamasu did actually made Goku scream in pain when he uses his telekinesis on Goku's ankle

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Fusion Zamasu did actually made Goku scream in pain when he uses his telekinesis on Goku's ankle

Fusion Zamasu only uses Telekinesis in the manga, to my knowledge, and he only uses a Choke.
You're thinking of the Electric Shock, which he used earlier against Goku and Vegeta.

 

[Vietthai96]

Fusion Zamasu only uses Telekinesis in the manga, to my knowledge, and he only uses a Choke.
You're thinking of the Electric Shock, which he used earlier against Goku and Vegeta.

ah yeah, I mixed these two manga and anime scenes, my bad

 

[UnoRebaixadO]

Does it already have enough votes to be added? I mean... as the topic name says, it's quite simple

 

[UnoRebaixadO]

Bump

 

[ProudLearner]

Bump

 

[Greatsage13th]

Does it already have enough votes to be added? I mean... as the topic name says, it's quite simple

There's more than enough votes to add it.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

There's more than enough votes to add it.

If anyone wants to they can