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Add to the Griever at the End of All Things' justifications that the void she embodies is the Far Shore. -Scarlet Witch & Quicksilver (Vol. 1) #4; 2024
Is it really? The statement is... a mouthfull and a bit hard to untangle, but Vis seem to say that her Void is what comes "after" the "Far Shore of Space-Time", as in: when space-time ends her void begins.

Iffy on Carnage, since variants aren't comparable, etc, etc. Or at least I would also use the King in Crimson image from... when the Eventuality was talking about it and there was that red hand. I think it's implied to be Carnage.

Otherwise agree, love Angela's profile.
 
That seems fine.
This is probably fine, but more input is needed.
This seems perfectly fine.
How many issues has this version of Carnage appeared in, are they canon, and how important are they?
This is probably fine.
This also seems fine.
This seems fine, but which void did Oblivion embody in that case?
  • The justifications for splitting the DeMatteis cosmology were provided in this thread, but I propose copying them to the verse page somewhere to make the reasons easier to keep track of. On that note, I wanted to delete a couple of these justifications for now (will likely delete far more next time).
    • The Fallen Star fits nowhere since they can't even work in conjunction with the One Above All or else they scale above the entire hierarchy except for the House if we were to introduce them in the main Cosmology.
      • This argument debunks itself. "The Fallen Stars would have nowhere to scale in the main cosmology, except let me tell you exactly where they'd scale in the main cosmology and not explain how that's an issue."
@Elizio33
  • J.M. DeMatteis takes his works from the teaching of the spiritual avatar, Meher Baba. Ewing doesn't at all base or elude such figures given he either doesn't know him or he doesn't use his teaching.
    • It's one thing to argue for a cosmology split based on different authors using different religions as an inspiration, but the fact that one author didn't use the specific religious philosophy of a single famous monk is a bit nonsensical as proof of irreconciliable differencies between cosmologies, no?
Meher Baba was/is an Enlightened Buddha or Satguru (one of many, but nevertheless), meaning that he has achieved oneness with God Themself. Calling Him a monk is an enormous understatement.

Regardless, the Hindu/Buddhist perception of the spiritual hierarchy and structure greatly differs from that in Kabbala, or a bastardised mixture of Kabbala with fiction-author differences as in Al Ewing's Marvel Comics cosmology. 🙏
 
Is it really? The statement is... a mouthfull and a bit hard to untangle, but Vis seem to say that her Void is what comes "after" the "Far Shore of Space-Time", as in: when space-time ends her void begins.
Okay. Never mind then. Thank you for helping out.
Iffy on Carnage, since variants aren't comparable, etc, etc.
If it isn't canon, it likely cannot be used.
Or at least I would also use the King in Crimson image from... when the Eventuality was talking about it and there was that red hand. I think it's implied to be Carnage.

Otherwise agree, love Angela's profile.
Thanks again. 🙏
 
Or at least I would also use the King in Crimson image from... when the Eventuality was talking about it and there was that red hand. I think it's implied to be Carnage.
Those are different versions. Basically due to their non-linear natures, Kings In Black have a bunch of different future incarnations within their timelines (I've seen this mechanic compared to the Doctor's variants, but I don't watch Doctor Who), and their Beyonder-level forms (e.g. Eventuality and King in Crimson) are their final incarnations at the end of time.
How many issues has this version of Carnage appeared in, and how important are they?
Between Death of the Venomverse #5 and Venom War #5, which is about 22 chapters. He's extremely important, the introduction of his form is the climax for Al Ewing's Venom run, and the turning point for every character relevant to the broader King In Black story (Caused the downfall of Meridius who was the main villain through all of Al Ewing's run, was ultimately responsible for Eddie losing his King in Black powers and accepting Carnage as his symbiote which Eddie's current run is about, etc.)
are they canon,
If it isn't canon, it likely cannot be used.
He's just the 616 Carnage symbiote who went to different timelines to gather some power, and as I mentioned above, his form is pretty crucial to most current symbiote stories.
Iffy on Carnage, since variants aren't comparable, etc, etc.
God-Butcher Carnage is shown to be firmly equal to or above the other Kings In Black (all being more experienced or stronger future versions of King In Black Eddie).

He one-shots Meridius (the strongest future King In Black Eddie before Eventuality) and calls himself his equal in the context of power,
And he destroys Meridius's dimensional garden, which is composed of his literal body.

Is it really? The statement is... a mouthfull and a bit hard to untangle, but Vis seem to say that her Void is what comes "after" the "Far Shore of Space-Time", as in: when space-time ends her void begins.
The problem is, her void is described as the conclusion of time and space, indicating that it is the farthest shore of space-time rather than something that succeeds it.
This seems fine, but which void did Oblivion embody in that case?
He would still embody the Far Shore on a larger scale. Chaos King was also described as Oblivion itself at times (despite us being told later that he's a fragment of Oblivion), so my interpretation is that multiple Abstract Entities can embody the Far Shore at the same time to different extents.
Regardless, the Hindu/Buddhist perception of the spiritual hierarchy and structure greatly differs from that in Kabbala, or a bastardised mixture of Kabbala with fiction-author differences as in Al Ewing's Marvel Comics cosmology. 🙏
Sure, but that's a different split justification from this one I'm trying to remove.
Otherwise agree, love Angela's profile.
That seems fine.

This is probably fine, but more input is needed.

This seems perfectly fine.
This is probably fine.

This also seems fine.
Looks good!
Thanks!
 
Those are different versions. Basically due to their non-linear natures, Kings In Black have a bunch of different future incarnations within their timelines (I've seen this mechanic compared to the Doctor's variants, but I don't watch Doctor Who), and their Beyonder-level forms (e.g. Eventuality and King in Crimson) are their final incarnations at the end of time.

Between Death of the Venomverse #5 and Venom War #5, which is about 22 chapters. He's extremely important, the introduction of his form is the climax for Al Ewing's Venom run, and the turning point for every character relevant to the broader King In Black story (Caused the downfall of Meridius who was the main villain through all of Al Ewing's run, was ultimately responsible for Eddie losing his King in Black powers and accepting Carnage as his symbiote which Eddie's current run is about, etc.)


He's just the 616 Carnage symbiote who went to different timelines to gather some power, and as I mentioned above, his form is pretty crucial to most current symbiote stories.

God-Butcher Carnage is shown to be firmly equal to or above the other Kings In Black (all being more experienced or stronger future versions of King In Black Eddie).

He one-shots Meridius (the strongest future King In Black Eddie before Eventuality) and calls himself his equal in the context of power,

And he destroys Meridius's dimensional garden, which is composed of his literal body.
Okay. That is probably fine then, but it depends on what other staff members think. 🙏
The problem is, her void is described as the conclusion of time and space, indicating that it is the farthest shore of space-time rather than something that succeeds it.

He would still embody the Far Shore on a larger scale. Chaos King was also described as Oblivion itself at times (despite us being told later that he's a fragment of Oblivion), so my interpretation is that multiple Abstract Entities can embody the Far Shore at the same time to different extents.
Perhaps, but more likely the Marvel writers just continuously thoughtlessly contradict each other.
Sure, but that's a different split justification from this one I'm trying to remove.
How so? The Buddha/Satguru Meher Baba largely represents Buddhist or Hindu perspectives of spirituality and metaphysics as far as I have understood.
No problem. 🙏
 
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Okay. That is probably fine then, but it depends on what other staff members think. 🙏

Perhaps, but more likely the Marvel writers just continuously thoughtlessly contradict each other.

How so? The Buddha/Satguru Meher Baba largely represents Buddhist or Hindu perspectives of spirituality and metaphysics as far as I have understood.
I meant the fact that DeMatteis uses Hindu theology while Ewing uses Jewish theology is a broader and different listed cosmology split argument from the one I'm responding to, which is the one about Meher Baba.
 
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Those are different versions.
I know, I know. But since it has a similar nature to Eddie and the Eventuality, it at least works as an additional justification.
He one-shots Meridius
That’s much better scaling than scaling him to some random Knull variant tbh.

The problem is, her void is described as the conclusion of time and space, indicating that it is the farthest shore of space-time rather than something that succeeds it.
🤔🤷‍♂️
“No one lives long enough to see that on the far shore of space-time itself.” That being “Victory…/Anything lasting…”

Her void on the contrary is “… the last light dying.” and “the conclusion” of everything, including time and space.
 
I will comment the op little by little, as I can't read it all right now.

The rework's nice, but I'd strive to make the descriptions a little more concise and less redundant, the text's good in itself, but it tends to be dragged on and repeated at times.

I'm not sure why Fate Manipulation is warranted, maybe it has to do with quantum physics that escapes me, but I'd like more elaboration on that.

I'm a little skeptical about using comics set in alternate universes, from Galacta to Old Man Quill, but especially the JLA/Avengers; while they recount events occurred in the main Marvel universe, they are at the same time unnecessary just because we have sufficient proof of those claims within the main line of comics and also avoiding repeteating a single, well-established fact multiple times (such as Galactus's fear of the weapon) also helps avoiding redundancy. Another example is using side or externa-to-comics material, such as reference 23, the official Marvel Website, which is not only archived, but also contains informations already provided by the comic itself in reference 22, or reference 30, whatever Marvel top 10 even is, that contains a piece of information already provided a plethora of times.

Also, I don't believe the one aspect of Eternity surviving the erasure to be necessarily an outlier, especially because we're talking about a fractal and abstract being as Eternity; given the complex nature of Eternity, the fallibility of the Nullifier and the wonky rules to which these abstracts entities abide to, I believe it possible for one aspect of Eternity to still linger, while everything else had been erased and consigned to Oblivion (to perform some sort of cross-scaling as well, in Quasar 37 we are shown that Eternity is so complex a being it requires numerous M-Bodies to host its compound essence).

Lastly, the P&A and Reference section could use a scroll box, for better visual clarity.
 
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I strongly agree about that all out of continuity references should be weeded out. 🙏
 
🤔🤷‍♂️
“No one lives long enough to see that on the far shore of space-time itself.” That being “Victory…/Anything lasting…”

That isnt the full quote though.

The full quote is

"No one lives long enough to see that on the far shore of space time itself the end is in fact the truth"

The "that" isnt a noun

Am I tripping?
 
The rework's nice, but I'd strive to make the descriptions a little more concise and less redundant
Thanks. To be clear, I prefer to include multiple statements for the same feat (hence the several scans for the UN being able to destroy Galactus) to reinforce consistency for high-end displays, though I can see how that may come off as redundant.
I'm not sure why Fate Manipulation is warranted, maybe it has to do with quantum physics that escapes me, but I'd like more elaboration on that.
Based on the definition of Qauntum Entanglement I found matching certain descrptions of fate manipulation. After looking into it more though, it might not exactly meet the requirements, so I'll just remove it.
I'm a little skeptical about using comics set in alternate universes, from Galacta to Old Man Quill, but especially the JLA/Avengers; while they recount events occurred in the main Marvel universe, they are at the same time unnecessary just because we have sufficient proof of those claims within the main line of comics and also avoiding repeteating a single, well-established fact multiple times (such as Galactus's fear of the weapon) also helps avoiding redundancy.
I'll remove the JLA/Avengers scan at least.
Another example is using side or externa-to-comics material, such as reference 23, the official Marvel Website, which is not only archived, but also contains informations already provided by the comic itself in reference 22, or reference 30, whatever Marvel top 10 even is, that contains a piece of information already provided a plethora of times.
Reference 23.0, sure. But reference 23.1 mentions new information about Reed's usage of the Ultimate Nullifier important for the point made in that small paragraph.

Marvel Top 10 is one of the web-series about the mainline comics on the official Marvel Entertainment YouTube channel, but since the statement from it isn't crucial, I can remove it now since that's preffered.
Also, I don't believe the one aspect of Eternity surviving the erasure to be necessarily an outlier, especially because we're talking about a fractal and abstract being as Eternity; given the complex nature of Eternity, the fallibility of the Nullifier and the wonky rules to which these abstracts entities abide to, I believe it possible for one aspect of Eternity to still linger, while everything else had been erased and consigned to Oblivion (to perform some sort of cross-scaling as well, in Quasar 37 we are shown that Eternity is so complex a being it requires numerous M-Bodies to host its compound essence).
That's a good point. I'll remove that note and chalk it up to a resistance feat for Eternity.
Lastly, the P&A and Reference section could use a scroll box, for better visual clarity.
Done.
 
Oh yeah, I thought I remembered to add that. Although, it might be Type 2 since despite Abstract Entities having Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation, their Abstract Existence is Type 2.
I mean, if your profile says that it killed Multiversal Eternity, then it should have killed its Type 1 conceptual self.

Also, killing a Type 2 Abstract does not mean that you can do it with only Type 2 concept nuke.
 
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Thanks. To be clear, I prefer to include multiple statements for the same feat (hence the several scans for the UN being able to destroy Galactus) to reinforce consistency for high-end displays, though I can see how that may come off as redundant.
Indeed, I just thing you exaggerated a bit in some instances, especially when recounting the original meeting between Reed and Galactus.

Reference 23.0, sure. But reference 23.1 mentions new information about Reed's usage of the Ultimate Nullifier important for the point made in that small paragraph.
Understandable, I can pass that, considering how specific the argument is.

The Angela rework looks good, but I have still a few qualms.

I'm not a fan of such use of guidebooks, since we don't consider them as neither canon nor reliable. Showing them for trivial notions abundantly made clear by the comics themselves, such as SPC, ES and Longevity among others, isn't a great idea, because then the profile ignores other statements of theirs, such as lifting 50 tons, probably, I rekon, because unsupported by the comics.
Guidebooks should be secondary sources at best to confirm what the comics leave in doubt and still within reasonable margins, otherwise we end up in the fallacy of cherry picking the content we like and excluding the one we dislike.

I would include invulnerability not even as a possibility, because Asgardians are pretty vulnerable and Angela herself seemingly is; they're just absurdly durable, which is probably what the comic means with the term invulnerability.

I would put her regeneration as possibly, or even remove it at all, because I'm not really convinced it was her own doing.
I went reading the issue and Sera first explains how the temple they're in brims with magic born from love, then reassures Angela to enter without fear because "You come here pure of heart. Whatever happens don't stop, whatever happens, you'll be well"
Angela herself is first taken aback by the fire that burns her ribbons, implying a hint of hesitation. She then moves forward and, as predicted, she is restored by virtue of her good intentions, reinforced by Sera claming she succeeded because she was moved by love.
This makes me believe the temple was indeed magical and supposed to burn to death whomever would have entered moved by negative intentions, but would spare the good ones were they brave enough to face the painful trial.

Is her resistance to forcefields legit? She seems to be entering the wall and suffering from pain or else, but nothing indicates the barrier was solid in the first place and she nullified it. It may have been just painful to traverse and naturally malleable, considering the trolls inside are not suprised at all.

I'm conflicted on her resistance to magic as well, she was seemingly feeling Sera's attacks, although they didn't seem to be effective, even assuming they were supposed to be at all in the first place.

I straight up reject resistance to Disease and Elements because they stem only from guidebooks and what I said above is valid even here.

I don't see the point in including the "flowery text" bit in the speed section just to disprove it in the same sentence, wouldn't it be better to no include it at all?
 
I'm not a fan of such use of guidebooks, since we don't consider them as neither canon nor reliable. Showing them for trivial notions abundantly made clear by the comics themselves, such as SPC, ES and Longevity among others, isn't a great idea, because then the profile ignores other statements of theirs, such as lifting 50 tons, probably, I rekon, because unsupported by the comics.
Guidebooks should be secondary sources at best to confirm what the comics leave in doubt and still within reasonable margins, otherwise we end up in the fallacy of cherry picking the content we like and excluding the one we dislike.
I straight up reject resistance to Disease and Elements because they stem only from guidebooks and what I said above is valid even here.
I thought our official rule on guidebooks was only to exclude the statistics and scaling arguments from them?
I would include invulnerability not even as a possibility, because Asgardians are pretty vulnerable and Angela herself seemingly is; they're just absurdly durable, which is probably what the comic means with the term invulnerability.
Sure. I was debating removing this myself after being told that our invulnerability standards might be very strict.
I would put her regeneration as possibly, or even remove it at all, because I'm not really convinced it was her own doing.
I went reading the issue and Sera first explains how the temple they're in brims with magic born from love, then reassures Angela to enter without fear because "You come here pure of heart. Whatever happens don't stop, whatever happens, you'll be well"
Angela herself is first taken aback by the fire that burns her ribbons, implying a hint of hesitation. She then moves forward and, as predicted, she is restored by virtue of her good intentions, reinforced by Sera claming she succeeded because she was moved by love.
This makes me believe the temple was indeed magical and supposed to burn to death whomever would have entered moved by negative intentions, but would spare the good ones were they brave enough to face the painful trial.
I'll downgrade it to possibly.
Is her resistance to forcefields legit? She seems to be entering the wall and suffering from pain or else, but nothing indicates the barrier was solid in the first place and she nullified it. It may have been just painful to traverse and naturally malleable, considering the trolls inside are not suprised at all.
I don't see the point in including the "flowery text" bit in the speed section just to disprove it in the same sentence, wouldn't it be better to no include it at all?
Fair points.
I'm conflicted on her resistance to magic as well, she was seemingly feeling Sera's attacks, although they didn't seem to be effective, even assuming they were supposed to be at all in the first place.
I think the statements are enough to clarify the nuances in the depiction.
 
I thought our official rule on guidebooks was only to exclude the statistics and scaling arguments from them?
My idea was that we scrap them entirely because unreliable by default, but use them only to support things already present within the comics.
Scrapping only statistics and not abilities feels like an arbitrary distinction meant to push an agenda, so to remain honest and consistent I believe we should not use anything unless supported by the main material.

Regarding Phoenix Force Thor and Super Carnage and Venom, for how many issues do these transformations last? Do they all belong to the main, 616 versions of the characters?
 
Regarding Phoenix Force Thor and Super Carnage and Venom, for how many issues do these transformations last?
Phoenix Force Thor was very brief, but it was added to the profile by Ultima, and removed by a normal user without authorization (by mistake).

Carnage lasted between Death of the Venomverse #5 and Venom War #5, which is about 22 chapters, and King in Black Venom appeared throughout basically the whole of the 2022 Venom run then some minor events/stories beyond that (plus, the form is pretty important to his character, narratively speaking).
Do they all belong to the main, 616 versions of the characters?
Yes. There was some confusion since the part about Carnage mentioned alternate earths, but it's just the mainline Carnage symbiote briefly going to alternate earths to absorb power before returning to 616.
 
Phoenix Force Thor is a part of Thor's regular, but seldom used, powerset, due to that he is a combined child of the original Phoenix Force embodiment and Gaea. It is not a separate power-up. 🙏
 
I think so, yes, but in this case it likely isn't a separate key, given that Thor just accessed his own latent inherent power. 🙏
 
Phoenix Force Thor was very brief, but it was added to the profile by Ultima, and removed by a normal user without authorization (by mistake).

Carnage lasted between Death of the Venomverse #5 and Venom War #5, which is about 22 chapters, and King in Black Venom appeared throughout basically the whole of the 2022 Venom run then some minor events/stories beyond that (plus, the form is pretty important to his character, narratively speaking).

Yes. There was some confusion since the part about Carnage mentioned alternate earths, but it's just the mainline Carnage symbiote briefly going to alternate earths to absorb power before returning to 616.
Then all's fine, though I'd like to see a draft of how these key would be published.

Mjolnir and Griever's additions look fine.

I have little interest and even less knowledge in cosmological debates, so I won't comment on those.
 
Replace the Ultimate Nullifier's current profile with my revamped version.
Immortality Type 3 Negation should be removed; Ultimate Nullifier can erase at History and Conceptual level, Low Godly can't come back from that level of erasure

Nullification and Negation are the same thing, this is pretty much redundant mention
 
Some evaluations regarding the minor DeMatteis split adjustment, and 1 more staff vote for everything else. By the way, are you fine with everything Saman has accepted?
Are there any differences in my earlier rejections of parts of these revisions and Saman's acceptances of them? 🙏
 
Immortality Type 3 Negation should be removed; Ultimate Nullifier can erase at History and Conceptual level, Low Godly can't come back from that level of erasure
Should I remove the Low-Godly label and keep Type 3?
Nullification and Negation are the same thing, this is pretty much redundant mention
I'm specifying that it can negate the abilities of the power cosmic, which is a verse-specific P&A.
 
You wanted elaboration regarding Griever being one of the embodiments of the Far Shore and keys for the two Kings in Black.
Okay, and how did that turn out?

Also, what happened here regarding DeMatteis' version of Marvel Comics cosmology? 🙏
 
Should I remove the Low-Godly label and keep Type 3?
It's better to remove Type 3 altogether, since conceptual and historical erasure are too much for type 3 which is simply Low-Godly

I'm specifying that it can negate the abilities of the power cosmic, which is a verse-specific P&A.
I understand, but you don't need to list both Power Nullification and Negation at the same time in the same sentence. Just Power Nullification, or Negation is enough since both are the same anyway

Other than that, the revamped profile look good
 
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Okay, and how did that turn out?
There was some back and forth over semantics, and clarifications over number of appearances, and Saman was fine with my proposals.
Also, what happened here regarding DeMatteis' version of Marvel Comics cosmology? 🙏
No one has been willing to comment on those. I'm not significantly changing how we treat the split right now, just removing 2 of the 17 justifications.
I understand, but you don't need to list both Power Nullification and Negation at the same time in the same sentence. Just Power Nullification, or Negation is enough since both are the same anyway
All right, sure.
Other than that, the revamped profile look good
What about the other stuff?
 
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