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He agrees with majority, so whatever is most popular then i guess (so basically he still agrees with option 1)
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Infinite Zamasu: A dreadful upgrade
- Thread starter TiltedFN
- Start date
- Status
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To be fair, it is very hard to keep track with over 10 pages of text.
TyranoDoom30
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After reading through (most of) it, i'm fine with a "2-C, up to Low 1-C" rating based on what we currently accept. I also don't understand the points against it if Zamasu is literally 1-1 with the universe alongside the fact we can scale characters based on their size or if they are literal universal sized space-times by themselves, alongside Zamasu having a Ki signature on this form.
I won't comment on other characters not named Zeno scaling to him as that's very clearly for a separated thread that can discuss them better.
I won't comment on other characters not named Zeno scaling to him as that's very clearly for a separated thread that can discuss them better.
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I mean it does have proof and our current standards accept it. Zamasu has the capacity to merge with the cosmology which would give him AP.
For Lord Griffin I'm pretty sure their vote is for number 1 rather than 2. They just think we've accepted "Up to" as the terminology for everything when that's only for numnrt two or number three of the AP ratings.
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Currently accept? This thread in and of itself argues to change most of that, anything can and is subject to change.
If we go by what's currently accepted he's 2-C so why change anything?
The universe is not the hypertimeline. In fact, they don't even say that, legit ong the best we get is, and I'm quoting here, not even paraphrasing,
"trying to become", not did become, not has become, not even WILL become.
The very fact we're assuming he can and will at all, is us being generous. And it's never shown past the mortal part of future U7 either and we know damn well he didn't finish for a multitude of reasons that extend from Zeno not knowing who tf he is, to the past timeline having not even been started to be fused with.
Only if they can actually do something with it, he can't.
And in fact, we usually have to calc it anyway, which is why GPE calcs often get used for large characters because you actually can't just assume a statistic.
We have a staff thread going on right now on that topic.
And this doesn't matter, why should we take our headcanon that isn't supported over what's actually fact?
That... Yeah he does so? Is he not supposed to? Why would he lose his ki signature? Like he still ha sthe ki he had?
You'd need to prove his ki somehow got stronger (not shown, not stated), that his ki output got stronger (not stated, opposite is shown), that merging would effect his ki (not stated, not shown), that even his mental state wouldn't gut his ki (an established concept we do in fact accept on wiki), and more.
Yeah he has ki, why does that act as evidence?
Oh no it isn't. That's the exact thing that was called out on page 1.
You tackle scaling in the thread itself, it's a rule even. If it effects others, you tackle that too. Which, we have.
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Damage please give your thoughts sooner so we can finish this thread
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What proof?
He can't use his size to attack.
Everything he did has zero to do with AP.
He has active showings his AP didn't grow.
Nothing anywhere in the medium says his ki grew as he did it either.
Our current standards? Our current standards are liable to change and those "standards" don't even exist. Yeah we have cases where we do that, but we also have examples where we don't. Like an example even, Arceus' abilities don't scale to him despite being a byproduct of his state of existence.
It's case by case, not "we do this every time no matter what", because why would we?
We're supposed to index what's actually the case, most certainly not anything that goes directly against what's actually fact.
They don't even say he has the capacity, the only thing they say is that he's trying to, not can, not will, and we know for a fact he doesn't due to Zeno's palace having yet not be reached which is in fact part of the future hypertimeline as one of many examples. That very premise in and of itself is an assumption.
This is the best they say.
Not that he can or that he will. They even preface it with "trying", that implies it's not a guarantee in the end either.
Like ong my dude, the very fact we're giving an eventual as it is, is generous. As the fact he would have fused with it all is an assumption, one that we know never came to pass.
We're giving a rating an infinity above what was stated, shown, and didn't even happen, all on a "he's trying to do that ig".
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I've missed out on the last couple of pages, so I will go back over those soon and then give my vote.
TyranoDoom30
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We accept the timeline as Low 1-C in scale. Therefore, if Zamasu can become 1 with it, then he is Low 1-C. Additionally, most of the staff IS voting for a "Up to Low 1-C" rating.
So up to Low 1-C.
He was affecting two timelines and distorting them with his presence as he started to become bigger and bigger, to the point Whis started to feel his signature. So yes, it can apply. Hell, he literally attacks the main group with Ki attacks.
It's literally stated he was trying to become one with the entire macrocosm and would've eventually reached the size of and become one with the hypertimeline. It's blatant so i don't know what you're smoking with "headcanon".
Because he produces power while being a literal space-time, making him Low 1-C. The universe is also filled with Ki so the bigger he gets the more powerful he becomes.
This thread is 11 pages long as of writing this, so no.
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it is stated that Zamasu begins engulfing the universe so it should get eventually low 1-c at least
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That he was merging with reality and has the capacity to merge with the multiverse.
Fusing with existence qualifies as significantly effecting it. Additionally he gets access to the Ki that makes up existing during his fusion, which would only increase as he consumes more of reality.
As before, give an example where we do not scale characters who fuse with their cosmology as being lower than their cosmology.
The standards exists which is why everyone is rated that way. It may change later due to an ongoing staff thread, but as is it's following current precedent.
The case is that a character with UES is absorbing a multiverse containing the energy of that UES and we rate other characters that absorb or fuse with a cosmology as that cosmology size.
Your point would only work if you couldn't prove he fused with stuff when that's nkt what happened.
It's not generous in my view, its based on Zamasu's plan, the statement and the appearance of the character.
We're giving him a rating that's saying "Eventually he would get that strong but was killed before he reached that point" going by staff votes.
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Nobody asked but my interpretation is that Zamasu clearly merged with the timeline which currently sits at low 1-C on this wiki. (A problem of its own)
However the mere fact that the strongest character was needed to defeat means clearly that no one should be scaling to him unless they can prove to be near or on Zeno’s scale. No one in the verse is anywhere close to that story wise or canonically.
However the mere fact that the strongest character was needed to defeat means clearly that no one should be scaling to him unless they can prove to be near or on Zeno’s scale. No one in the verse is anywhere close to that story wise or canonically.
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Yeah we know that? Nobody is saying he didn't begin or attempt to do it, obviously he was to some degree.
But, "begins" is not "finished" and "universe" is, actually really bad thinking on it, a universe isn't the whole macrocosm or hypertimeline. That's simply 2-C in the context of DB.
Yeah and I'm sure Freeza can become 2-C via training so should we rate Namek Freeza 2-C because he could if given enough time even though at that point he never did?
I would like to remind everyone they never do confirm or say it's guaranteed and based on the information we have it didn't actually occur yet, so we have to assume that "trying to" is code for "he can and will".
No, he didn't, I'm not going back into that Whis Beerus line again because they legit don't actually say what you're claiming they do.
Yes, Whis could barely feel his ki via a time warp. Whis has ki sensing large enough to sense things on earth from Beerus' place, he's done so many times.
Yes, which is proof his ki didn't change or grow stronger, that's one of the most blatant contradictions to the argument he grew in power, because he didn't, if anything he performs worse.
Actually it isn't, it's stated he was trying to, but trying is not "he did it before dying".
And they don't say entire macrocosm, if anything we should be limiting it to just U7 based on what they do say.
It's blatant? So is the fact he didn't do it.
Why didn't he reach Zeno's palace?
Why not show him expanded past that point?
Why only say "trying" instead of will or can?
Why not confirm he did it?
It isn't blatant, the very fact you arrive at that conclusion is simply an assumption not actually based on a single piece of solid evidence.
Power that is shown to be stagnate, and doesn't scale at all maybe.
Like, why we just taking our headcanon over the actual showing of power and saying that power is secretly THIS power, not the power it's shown to be?
AsterReal
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I know it sounds tedious: but how exactly do we know that Zamas' fusion method gave him access to the Ki of existence? If there are precedents of that with the dance that Goku and Vegeta use or the fusion of those earrings that the Supreme Kaios have. But Zamas' fusion method is neither of those two and looks like a completely different one.
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It is required that scaling is tackled in the thread itself
All of the scenarios that staff are voting on specifies which characters would scale to this (or none in the case of scenario 1)
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My view goes as follows: The third type of ki accepted on the wiki is the ki that makes up existence, which is what is used to make the large Spirit Bombs in GT, for Trunk's sword and at the end against Kid Buu. Fusing with the cosmology would give Zamasu access to it by the fact he becomes the existence and objects containing that energy.
AsterReal
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Thank you for clarifying this.
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- Thread starter
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In light of the recent comments, there seems to be a genuine vote confusion (among some of the staff here as well not having 100 percent certainty) here and it's gotten out of control and extremely messy. We're still arguing despite options and summaries being posted which manages to fill the thread with more post than is needed. I've already got permission from Qaw, so I'll be making a staff thread to post the summaries of the arguments and options that Qaw laid out so staff can vote more clearly and without having to go through clutter. It will be a more proper conclusion. Chariot will have to get permission to comment his summary if he chooses.
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Well as long as he can comment that's fine.
I'll lock the thread and edit a link to the staff thread when it's created.
EDIT: Thread unlocked per staff votes here
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The thread has been reopened as discussed here.
The next step is to modify the votes according to the Staff's actual decisions, that is, as Chariot said here regarding LordGriffin's vote, and add Dale's vote to option 1, as he commented here.
If the OP / Supporters have something else to argue, they have THIS precise moment, otherwise, this CRT after passing the time limit should be left as rejected / accepted Option 1.
Let's avoid unnecessary or ironic comments that don't contribute to the discussion, given that this has already been 11 pages. If anyone does, I'll personally report it to the RVT.
supertomioka
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I am a tad bit late to the party but I wanted to give my thoughts and hopefully clear some miss conceptions
Firstly
the "contradiction" or anti feat for IZ ,Goku and co blocking IZ attack after he became HD. The thing is, IZ wasn’t aiming or targeting the attack at Goku and co he just wanted to level the planet. As seen here, he releases attacks simultaneously at different places throughout the entire planet to level it, and that’s it. If he was targeting the gang, why didn’t he continue spamming? Why did he stop after the planet was leveled?
I am trying to reason that since the attack aim was to surface the planet, it didn’t need tier 2 AP to stop it, as he wasn’t targeting them in the first place. Heck, even Shin and Gowasu block these attacks from IZ would this be a tier 2 upscale for them?? No. Shin and Gowasu blocking these attacks, with my reasoning, proves the attack was just meant to surface wipe, hence it isn’t an anti-feat.
Heck even Mai survives an energy attack from Goku Black in Episode 46, and this leveling the planet habit is common, since Goku Black, even with his potentially tier2 attacks, was just leveling cities.
This statement of Zamasu fusing with just the universe is wrong and taken out of context. To put it simply, the use of “universe” there is a mistranslation. Even though it uses the kanji for universe 宇宙, in this context it didn’t literally just mean the U7 macrocosm. “Uchū” is context dependent and can mean the cosmos, timeline, world, or all of existence.
The dub makes this clear by outright saying “the whole cosmos.”
Now, in the sub it does say “universe,” so what’s the problem? Here’s the statement:
ザマスは、宇宙になろうとしているのかもしれん。
もはや神の形さえも捨てて、正義と秩序、そのものとなろうとしているのだ。
Funny enough they make the exact same mistake here
“Zeno is the most powerful god in the entire universe.”
全宇宙で一番偉い神様。その気になれば一瞬で宇宙を消し去ることができる力を持つ。かつて18あった宇宙は全王の手によって12まで減らされてしまったという。
This is obviously contradictory calling Zeno the strongest god in “the universe,” Clearly, “universe” here is shorthand for the entire cosmos not the macrocosm.
So, when Gowasu says
「ざ、ざ、ザマス…ザマスは宇宙そのものになるかもしれない。あ？彼は神聖なものすべてを捨て去り、正義と秩序そのものになろうとしている。」
it means becoming the entire world/timeline/cosmos/all of existence. The dub even supports this directly. Downplaying it as just U7 makes no sense whatsoever and the other points below makes it more clear.
Zeno didn’t just destroy U7 I say this not only because IZ was affecting the cosmos (which would require traversing the neutral zone to reach the entire cosmos) but also because if that were the case, then why wasn’t the backdrop of the timeline after erasure the neutral zone? The neutral zone backdrop has planets and galaxies, but this place didn’t. In fact, it was the exact same backdrop used to represent the World of Void, a place without time and space, I personally think this is how they represent timeless voids.
If you argue that Zeno only erased the neutral zone, then you run into the same problem as the whole 6D DB debate all over again.
Even the number of time rings at the end of the arc tells us Zeno erased the timeline. Why? Because initially there were only five time rings. Unlike the manga, where we explicitly see a time ring break due to Zeno erasure, in the anime we don’t see it break but one time ring was missing at the end of the arc. There were only six, not seven, when Gowasu checks.
I say seven because it’s stated by Beerus that Whis helping Trunks and Mai would create another time ring. Whis then reprimands Beerus, saying that he himself already created one. Since Whis helped Trunks again, one more time ring was made. Meaning if there were originally five, plus one from Beerus, plus another from Whis, there should have been seven. But we only see six, indicating a time ring was missing or more accurately, erased because of Zeno similar to his manga counterpart.
It’s important to make Zeno’s intentions clear so we can know if Zamasu did in fact complete his merging with the timeline.
In Episode 67, Goku asks Supreme Kai if the Zeno of this world would still be present:
あ...なっ、海王神さま！この世界の全王様って、まだいるんかな？
Key note here is the usage of “world.” Then later, Goku asks Zeno that this (referring to Zamasu) should be erased, with Zeno replying “this kind of world”:
消しちゃった方がいいんじゃねえか？
そうだね。こんな世界。
“World” here = multiverse, because it’s the same context as Goku’s earlier question.
Zeno’s response tells us his intentions: he was targeting the world, not Infinite Zamasu himself. Right before the erasure, Zeno states:
こんな世界、消えちゃえ！
“This kind of world should disappear.”
Even in the dub, Zeno blatantly says: “All of existence go away!”
Why this matters
Because if Zeno was targeting the world (timeline/multiverse) and not IZ directly, then this confirms Zamasu did in fact fuse with the timeline.
Now, if Zeno erased the timeline, why was Zamasu erased too ? since he was already affecting other timelines?
ザマスだな。未来で何かあったな。それが現在にまで影響を及ぼしている。
Trunks and Mai escaped to the main timeline without being affected. So if Zamasu was not just only inside the timeline itself, but literally extended outside of it he should have survived. at least in the space between timelines. But he didn’t. Why? Because Zamasu was the timeline.
Zamasu = Timeline.
Erase the timeline → erase Zamasu, because Zamasu had become the timeline itself.
So once he had fused with this timeline, erasing it naturally erased him as well, even if parts of his presence stretched into others.
This alone is enough proof that IZ did fuse with the timeline. Even if you reverse it and argue that Zeno was targeting IZ himself the timeline also being erased along with him proves the point.
So I was initially going for option 1 but with this Option 2 is the only possible route
Firstly
the "contradiction" or anti feat for IZ ,Goku and co blocking IZ attack after he became HD. The thing is, IZ wasn’t aiming or targeting the attack at Goku and co he just wanted to level the planet. As seen here, he releases attacks simultaneously at different places throughout the entire planet to level it, and that’s it. If he was targeting the gang, why didn’t he continue spamming? Why did he stop after the planet was leveled?
I am trying to reason that since the attack aim was to surface the planet, it didn’t need tier 2 AP to stop it, as he wasn’t targeting them in the first place. Heck, even Shin and Gowasu block these attacks from IZ would this be a tier 2 upscale for them?? No. Shin and Gowasu blocking these attacks, with my reasoning, proves the attack was just meant to surface wipe, hence it isn’t an anti-feat.
Heck even Mai survives an energy attack from Goku Black in Episode 46, and this leveling the planet habit is common, since Goku Black, even with his potentially tier2 attacks, was just leveling cities.
This statement of Zamasu fusing with just the universe is wrong and taken out of context. To put it simply, the use of “universe” there is a mistranslation. Even though it uses the kanji for universe 宇宙, in this context it didn’t literally just mean the U7 macrocosm. “Uchū” is context dependent and can mean the cosmos, timeline, world, or all of existence.
The dub makes this clear by outright saying “the whole cosmos.”
Now, in the sub it does say “universe,” so what’s the problem? Here’s the statement:
ザマスは、宇宙になろうとしているのかもしれん。
もはや神の形さえも捨てて、正義と秩序、そのものとなろうとしているのだ。
Funny enough they make the exact same mistake here
“Zeno is the most powerful god in the entire universe.”
全宇宙で一番偉い神様。その気になれば一瞬で宇宙を消し去ることができる力を持つ。かつて18あった宇宙は全王の手によって12まで減らされてしまったという。
This is obviously contradictory calling Zeno the strongest god in “the universe,” Clearly, “universe” here is shorthand for the entire cosmos not the macrocosm.
So, when Gowasu says
「ざ、ざ、ザマス…ザマスは宇宙そのものになるかもしれない。あ？彼は神聖なものすべてを捨て去り、正義と秩序そのものになろうとしている。」
it means becoming the entire world/timeline/cosmos/all of existence. The dub even supports this directly. Downplaying it as just U7 makes no sense whatsoever and the other points below makes it more clear.
Zeno didn’t just destroy U7 I say this not only because IZ was affecting the cosmos (which would require traversing the neutral zone to reach the entire cosmos) but also because if that were the case, then why wasn’t the backdrop of the timeline after erasure the neutral zone? The neutral zone backdrop has planets and galaxies, but this place didn’t. In fact, it was the exact same backdrop used to represent the World of Void, a place without time and space, I personally think this is how they represent timeless voids.
If you argue that Zeno only erased the neutral zone, then you run into the same problem as the whole 6D DB debate all over again.
Even the number of time rings at the end of the arc tells us Zeno erased the timeline. Why? Because initially there were only five time rings. Unlike the manga, where we explicitly see a time ring break due to Zeno erasure, in the anime we don’t see it break but one time ring was missing at the end of the arc. There were only six, not seven, when Gowasu checks.
I say seven because it’s stated by Beerus that Whis helping Trunks and Mai would create another time ring. Whis then reprimands Beerus, saying that he himself already created one. Since Whis helped Trunks again, one more time ring was made. Meaning if there were originally five, plus one from Beerus, plus another from Whis, there should have been seven. But we only see six, indicating a time ring was missing or more accurately, erased because of Zeno similar to his manga counterpart.
It’s important to make Zeno’s intentions clear so we can know if Zamasu did in fact complete his merging with the timeline.
In Episode 67, Goku asks Supreme Kai if the Zeno of this world would still be present:
あ...なっ、海王神さま！この世界の全王様って、まだいるんかな？
Key note here is the usage of “world.” Then later, Goku asks Zeno that this (referring to Zamasu) should be erased, with Zeno replying “this kind of world”:
消しちゃった方がいいんじゃねえか？
そうだね。こんな世界。
“World” here = multiverse, because it’s the same context as Goku’s earlier question.
Zeno’s response tells us his intentions: he was targeting the world, not Infinite Zamasu himself. Right before the erasure, Zeno states:
こんな世界、消えちゃえ！
“This kind of world should disappear.”
Even in the dub, Zeno blatantly says: “All of existence go away!”
Why this matters
Because if Zeno was targeting the world (timeline/multiverse) and not IZ directly, then this confirms Zamasu did in fact fuse with the timeline.
Now, if Zeno erased the timeline, why was Zamasu erased too ? since he was already affecting other timelines?
ザマスだな。未来で何かあったな。それが現在にまで影響を及ぼしている。
Trunks and Mai escaped to the main timeline without being affected. So if Zamasu was not just only inside the timeline itself, but literally extended outside of it he should have survived. at least in the space between timelines. But he didn’t. Why? Because Zamasu was the timeline.
Zamasu = Timeline.
Erase the timeline → erase Zamasu, because Zamasu had become the timeline itself.
So once he had fused with this timeline, erasing it naturally erased him as well, even if parts of his presence stretched into others.
This alone is enough proof that IZ did fuse with the timeline. Even if you reverse it and argue that Zeno was targeting IZ himself the timeline also being erased along with him proves the point.
So I was initially going for option 1 but with this Option 2 is the only possible route
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Cut.
It has already been said to stop with the meaningless comments, this is enough with 11 pages.
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Voting solidly for Option 1 at this time. Apologies for any delay.
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As I stated before, I disagree with this logic. Ignoring possible complete insanity from IZ, The implications the kais need to block sub tier 6 attacks is crazy. In addition, AP does not = DC in db. In another addition, a full power goku can do something to IZ, so the concept of him being magnitudes stronger than before is doubtful and does an antifeat for certain positions.
Zeno’s intention does not matter. Zeno in the first place does not know the extent of Zamasu’s “infection” of the work so to speak. Goku is even shocked when Zeno decides to erase the entirety of the future to get rid of Zamasu. This kinda implies Goku thought Zamasu was not fused with the entirety of the the future. (The story implication is basically “Damn I was not expecting Zeno to go overkill. We need to gtfo”
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For now is something like this:
Agree: @Qawsedf234 (He is fine with three scenarios)
- Scenario 1: @DarkDragonMedeus, @Damage3245, @Maverick_Zero_X, @Dalesean027, @LordGriffin1000 (Not only his arguments indicate this, but he also explictly states that he agrees with majority)
- Scenario 2: @Vietthai96
- Scenario 3: N/A
So... 5-1-0 based on the options.
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- Thread starter
- #427
Okay its over, the changes will be applied soon.
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Yes he was? He was aiming at everything. And it's still an anti-feat. Why would Zamasu hold back to the point characters apparently infinitely weaker than him can stop his attacks, despite wanting everyone dead.
The answer is he wouldn't.
This, as with most things thus far, is conjecture, extrapolation, and never once actually said, you're making multiple assumptions when the actual material offers the opposite.
And also that "he just wanted to level the planet", no he didn't? He actually likes nature, iirc he yaps about it when having tea, twice even? He made a point of that himself. He dislikes intelligent life, stuff like trees, bugs, and more he's chill with (Actually... Isn't that WHY he was systematically wiping out portions of humanity instead of just popping the planet? As to retain it intact?)
What he wanted, was for mortals to die, why is Goku and gang who are actively in his way exempt from this?
Why hold back infinite degrees because... There is no because he just wouldn't. And especially not follow up on it. So he's either so insane he doesn't even register people anymore because that def ain't playing, we see him play, this is not it (So ki manip gets gutted) or he did try, which, well it is what it is man, blame Toei not me.
And? Why's he suddenly holding back infinite degrees when he, going by your stance here, would also know that the people he also wants dead are right there.
That's a very good question. I'd wager it's because he's batshit crazy now.
But if that's the case, that also means he lacks a fundamental aspect of ki as a whole, and as such, we have no reason to scale him to a hypothetical perfected state because that simply isn't mutually possible.
Or maybe he isn't, in which case circle back around to them blocking it, his ki not having grown stronger by direct evidence, etc.
Either way you slice it there's blatant contradictions to assumption he got stronger.
Your reasoning, is conjecture.
Where do they say that was his goal? Where do they say that's all he wanted to do?
No, what you're doing, is trying to explain away a blatant anti-feat with hypothetical conjecture that doesn't even make sense in context.
What you're claiming isn't fact. It is no more valid than anything I've said.
This is what I mean, you can explain anything if you try hard enough.
But your explanation isn't inherently fact or valid.
But case in point, "trying to reason", don't try to reason, prove it as undeniable fact. If you have to try and make excuses for it yourself, that just adds to the pile of contrivances that MUST be true for this to even be an argument. This isn't helping, it's digging an even deeper hole, most certainly not aligning with our "need solid proof for tier 1" standards tbh.
Secret stealth edit like MGS: Also I frugot, but, Goku himself says at full power he could likely do something, so either IZ's ki didn't change, he didn't get much stronger if at all (Full power Goku can't do a thing to MZ for example), but this all adds to the counterpoint of the feat as a whole and IZ's ki growing, his mind being compromised, or his output stagnating.
Actually it might yeah, at least for their forcefields when working together.
Also there you go again "with my reasoning".
I can not stress this enough but I don't want your reasoning. I want what's actual canon fact, like I'm not trying to be mean here but this is how the wiki works, we need solid evidence, and if your evidence is just one of a dozen maybes, we can't be using that.
Why is your reasoning somehow more valid than anything I've said? Hell most of what I've said at least has direct statements correlating or or established facts. So why, are you trying to assert that your interpretation, not what's confirmed, not what's stated, and not even what's shown as being a valid rebuttal? It isn't, it just exacerbates the problem the entire opposition has with making assumptions instead of fact.
Mai survives being collateralized, she wasn't hit directly, if she was she would have died. That's a false equivalence on your end, not really the same here either given Zamasu's goal wasn't to raze the planet but was to kill everyone. Hence why everyone but the people protected by the gang died and it was given extra focus on the fact everyone died, with shots of people being vaporized.
Also yes, ki control is in fact a thing, ki control that Goku Black has in spades.
But, I shouldn't have to explain one of the basic premises of ki to you.
Does that mean say, saiyan saga Nappa could deflect one of Goku Black's attacks because he himself has an even greater show of razing? I'm not even going to answer that, it's rhetorical, you know the answer.
They still hold the complete power of his output, they're just localized and have restricted AOE (It's for this very reason the million of anti-feats DBZ has as a whole, aren't actually anti-feats, unless we want to downgrade all of DB to like tier 5 tops out of consistency if we just want to ignore a long established concept for the sake of... Upgrading IZ based on collateral showings...? Hol up chat...)
What does this mean though? It means you're just kind of wrong again, if IZ was as strong as you seem to think he is, like it or not, Goku and gang shouldn't be able to deflect his attacks or tank them REGARDLESS of their AOE as they'd still have power behind it equivalent to whatever he wanted, or could (Assuming he's lost his mind), so nuh uh lad.
Honestly I didn't even think we needed to explain this part, this is basic DBZ powerscaling knowledge that everyone here should know by default.
So... Not actually mistranslation? But instead you're extrapolating the meaning beyond what they actually say instead of actually taking what they say?
Also swear to god you did not just link an online dictionary as your evidence of it being "context" dependent, with you, ong, saying "can mean" not "does mean". Can isn't good enough here chief.
This also isn't how it works. We have a character saying he's fusing with the universe, actually not even, he says he's trying to do so.
And then you take the absolute highest possible interpretation of the word used, claim it means the whole hypertimeline, ignore the fact he was simply attempting, they don't confirm he succeeded in full btw, and try to pass that off as fact? No my dude, this is, again, just another thing that MUST be true that isn't actually fact but mere interpretation for the conclusion to hold any value.
And the worst part is... You just self-sabotaged, uchu is most commonly used for talking about space yeah, as in outerspace, as in like, the physical outerspace, that type of universe. uchu just mean outer space or the universe, yeah sure, but it does not mean it on the scope you're implying like timeline, in fact it NEVER means timeline in actual language speak, they got words for that my dude, 時間 which is time, 時系列 which is chronological order or timeline, タイムライン which is legit just the word timeline, pointing this out was the worst thing you could've done because it actually narrows down the scope of what IZ fused with.
And I do mean that, why do you think some common uses include, 宇宙飛行士 (uchu hikoshi), which is an astronaut, 宇宙船 (uchusen), aka a spaceship, 宇宙人 (uchujin), as in one of those goons from JJK.
It almost always means the physical universe aka space.
So cool, Zamasu, based on what we see, and with the wording used, was trying to become space. Anything past that, you need to prove.
The dub? Gang you do not want to start using the dub of all things as an argument. Otherwise I'm about to go downgrade about a dozen things if we somehow take the dub over the actual japanese.
Though I will say, and? You could say the same thing in regards to just the macrocosm
Are we actually saying it's just a mistake now and that random people online a decade later's interpretation is actually fact and the studio just screwed up?
You conceded what they actually say isn't what the dub says, moving on.
We real right now?
Actually, you're wrong, in fact this acts as evidence against Zamasu.
The zeno line says 全宇宙, which is a different from from just 宇宙.
That means all of creation, all the universes, it's a compound form, not just a universe or space, but everything, all of it, all of them.
So, no, they didn't mess up or make a mistake. The Zamasu line simply says universe, as in space.
The Zeno line says all of creation and actively differentiates them.
In fact, in that same paragraph, they refer just U7 and the 18 universes as simply "uchu", while the "most powerful god" line is zen-uchu, so not only does it differentiate in that SAME PARAGRAPH between the entire hypertimeline and normal universes, but it's internally consistent that if just one of the unis is an "uchu", while the whole of everything is zen-uchu. WHICH, if, IZ is simply stated to have fused or was trying to fuse with uchu, well... Thanks for the counterpoint ig.
Which, is further self-sabotage and actually acts as proof against your claim, direct evidence even.
Given you just attempted to use that as corroborating evidence, yet failed, if the goal is that we should take this into view as proof of something, it acts as proof against your entire argument thus far.
Oh and because we like online dictionaries, here's the compoundform of zen-uchu which entails and conveys a far greater totality of the universe or creation, differing it from simply "uchu".
See above, you legit dismantled your whole argument. You gave proof they differentiate between the whole cosmology and the base set of universes, not only in general, but even within the same paragraph.
So no, screw the dub, we take dub we're downgrading a slew of stuff, but that's beside the point.
The actual japanese differentiates between the hypertimeline with zen-uchu, and the 18 universes as uchu.
So nope, based on visual showings, based on IZ having not reached Zeno's palace that is, in fact, part of the hypertimeline (meaning he didn't fuse with it all), and based on your own evidence proving that they clarify between just a base world and all of reality...
This isn't downplay, it's actually borderline fact as this point. Definitely more supported than you just saying that the writers made mistakes, resorting to non-canon dub lines that don't say what they actually do in the raw, ignoring blatant counterevidence like Zeno's palace, and then just ASSUMING it encompasses everything when they say uchu just because when that word don't even mean half the stuff you're trying to say it does.
Who gives a damn? Zeno is a non-argument, I can't believe you're making me repeat myself here, again, for the 10th time.
Zeno's nuclear option has no implications on tow hich Zamasu fused with the hypertimeline.
This is for multiple reasons.
1. Zeno explicitly can, and will, destroy all of reality if crossed or annoyed.
2. IZ embodied a bunch of things he straight up hated and we later learn would have destroyed all of reality for, for less.
3. Zeno himself lacks that good of ki sensing, he would not actually be able to sense how far IZ spread to gauge how much he would need to destroy.
4. As established in the ToP, his eyes ain't even hypertrained and can't see some stuff others like Goku could.
5. Zeno himself had no idea what was going on, he didn't even know IZ was a thing, he had to ask Goku if he was the cause of destruction, and if that wasn't enough Goku himself has to point IZ out to him despite being surrounded by him quite literally. Showing that Zeno's ki sensing and whatnot is uhm...
6. If IZ did spread through the whole hyper timeline, Zeno would even have had to ask, because he palac would have be breached and he would have known about IZ given his batshit crazy laughing, screeching and the fact he's legit in his home now like you kind of a red flag.
It is quite literally impossible for Zeno's nuclear option to be used as an indication of anything, he can't sense that well, he was completely ignorant, and the very fact he was ignorant also act as evidence he didn't fuse with everything.
Everything that could be counterpointive, is.
Ok that's cool. Nobody is saying Zeno didn't go nuclear and wipe out the hypertimeline?
We ain't even talking about IZ at this point.
You just kind of lost the plot.
Zeno wiping out all of reality doesn't effect whether or not IZ fused with it as a whole. They're two different feats?
As above, ong you're derailing now.
i'm just not gonna comment on this facet anymore, you're derailing bad. Nobody is saying Zeno didn't go nuclear and wipe out the whole timeline, he can keep Low 1-C because he has actual proof he did it.
No it doesn't? It's just a general word for world? Like yeah in this context it might mean that, but it's just general speaking.
It doesn't matter I'm this is some of the most extreme extrapolation we've had thus far.
Zeno can and will destroy everything off nothing, it's a character quirk.
He can and will and even has destroy universes as a whole, whole chunks of reality, off trivial things.
We hard know as a fact that he was going to wipe out all of reality and creation bar nothing if he found people to be selfish, regardless of circumstances and extremus.
Zeno is teleported in from nowhere, has not a damn clue what's going on, sees nothing but ruins and death, sees this thing he had no idea existed that he thinks is disgusting.
And then says screw this this shit gotta go.
You're extrapolating to mean that Zeno's nuclear option somehow proves IZ's state but it's impossible for Zeno to make a judgement based on how much he encompassed to begin with.
Actually hell I think you've lost ME at this point, why in the world, are you trying to argue Zeno finding him disgusting and wanting to nuke the whole world, and blowing away all of existence, to mean anything?
The rest just doesn't act as sufficient evidence as outlined below.
No it doesn't? It confirms Zeno destroyed the world, because IZ is a disgusting eldritch freak who he finds revolting and proves his later revealed notion of people being selfish as true. You just said yourself he says all o existence. IZ he wasn't the rocks on the ground or the debris for example, but that got wiped out too.
Why did you ignore a slew of context there like how he actively scanned around first at the destroyed wasteland and death before coming to a conclusion?
Anything past that needs actual proof, not guesswork or assumptions.
Wait are we real right now? He died BECAUSE HE WIPED OUT ALL OF REALITY.
He would have died even if he WASN'T fused with it?
By this logic why did Goku and gang flee? Why was Goku screaming to get the time machine started and that they need to run away right now.
They would have been safe because "they weren't being targeted" by your logic.
Why did trillions die in the ToP? Zeno targeted the universes (explicitly), not the people in them?
Like come on dude what we doing...
Oh also that Whis statement again, why do I need to repeat it again?
Beerus and Whis did not have context.
Whis simply says he can feel Zamasu's energy.
Beerus says that something must have happened in the future (Because IZ is not dead/sealed like he should be based on what he knows), because he can feel him in the past (For reasons he doesn't know).
Beerus, with this information in mind, says basically something must be happening in the present.
Now mind you, he doesn't know what that thing is, he never even says time or the world btw, it's just as easily something like the very fact they can sense him or he's trying o come here is what they meant, because how would they mean anything else? They don't know that information.
This is why, Beerus proceeds to haul off to earth, so he can stop being ignorant on the ongoings and actually figure out why.
This also ignores that Beerus and Whis only make that claim because they can sense him.
That is it, you conveniently cropped out the immediate prior frames,
Which cycles back to the argument that's been discussed over a dozen times now, yeah they can sense him, but only because a portal opened up, past that they got no idea why they can.
And don't get me wrong, this isn't me assuming, Whis says 何やら, as in, "something" or "for some reason", you get it,
何やら,肌がピリピリするような不快な気が流れていますね.
Whis is using that as an adverbial sentence opener here, placed at the start of the sentence, acting as a modifier for the whole clause, basically making it a hedged observation instead of explicit.
何やら 肌がピリピリするような不快な気が流れていますね.
Without 何やら it would become like a direct statement made with certainty yeah? But that isn't the case, with 何やら it'd be like "For some reason, it feels like an unpleasant energy is flowing, making my skin tingle".
It acts to modify the content basically into being vague, they don't know why they can feel it or even what it is, just that they can.
IF they knew why they could sense it, or what it was doing, there would be no "Damn I feel energy but why?", Whis would know, it's fusing with the timeline itself or whatever, that's a pretty blatant reason. But the actual wording makes it hard fact Whis himself doesn't know why, and Beerus simply deduces it based on the fact they can feel it, but they absolutely do not say or infer what you imply they mean with it.
I don't think I need to explain basic japanese language structure here to you, if you want to argue linguistics, surely you would have at least basic knowledge of the language whether that's SOV structure, how things modify others, or even the predicates, affixes and particles, that's all like basic N4 type stuff
But even still, how did that portal happen? Unknown, but the anime seems to suggest it's done via time warp as they draw back to Goku Black doing so in ep50 directly saying it's just like that.
Time Warp is hax, and in fact, not something done under his own power.
Trunk's Time Machine going back and forth leaves time warps.
IZ's emergence happens to be localized entirely where we know there to be a time warp, and never extends past that point (directly suggesting the obvious, he's either 1. not done fusing with the future completely to start on the past, or 2. It wasn't even done under his power and he's stuck there for now till he DOES fuse completely if even possible, because that is simply where the warp is located).
Taking that Beerus line as anything is kind of insulting tbh, it needs to forego so much context around it that I'm starting to feel a bit insulted people keep trying to use it as if I can't just check the episode myself.
You're right, he should have, which is why we know he didn't fuse with U7 at all.
Uh no, it means he didn't fuse past a certain point or merge with the past.
You're extrapolating based on things never actually stated or shown.
Or maybe because everything and everyone who was in that timeline still was obliterated, from stars, planets, space and time itself, Goku and friends if they stayed because they make that so evidently clear I should have just posted the clip instead of actually replying to all this because it's not even debatable.
Fortunately, Zamasu, was, in fact, in the timeline when it went nuclear, so he died.
In fact here's Goku freaking out, both sub and dub, because Zeno is going nuclear which would, of course, kill them too even if they weren't targeted directly.
No? You need to stop this conjecture.
"Naturally"? This is once again just a mere assumption that doesn't even hold up once you stop ignoring counterevidence.
You know what's equally as likely? He didn't even finish fusing with the "uchu", ie, U7 or whatever facet we want to say because we don't 100% know, and Zeno wiping out all of reality, which includes U7, murdered his ass along with everything else.
His presence didn't stretch into others, all we have is a time warp opening up, he never actually began fusing with it going by actual statements and lines and showings, you'd need to make another assumption for this argument to hold weight, and that would be what, 15 assumptions stacked atop each other by this point for the argument to be true?
I'm pretty sure you unintentionally proved he didn't ngl.
Best be ready for a handful more. Based on what you showed.
The assumptions.
- 1. You claim IZ just held back by infinities because he only wanted to raze the planet and nothing else (Never stated, his actual plan was to kill everyone from what we were told so him holding back as to not kill Goku and friends makes no sense).
- 1.1. You mention Black razing the planet but ignore ki control, and how limited AOE still packs the full power.
- 1.2. Mention Mai but she wasn't even hit directly.
- 1.3 The only argument would be he's mindless so he just stopped, but that would mean he lacks a fundamental aspect of ki, and wouldn't scale anyway because of it.
- 2. You assume the highest possible interpretation of a word that has a pretty unanimous utility and usage, when in your own words it can mean multiple things anyway, but you also ignore how in most standard uses it means physical space or simply space or the universe, nothing much beyond that. You also conveniently ignore how they say "trying" multiple times, not even direct confirmation he can or would.
- 3. Cherrypicking from the exact same paragraph of Zeno's bio, but also what is effectively a different word that contradicts your entire argument, as somehow supporting it (And this is why we really need people who can read the language to partake in this shit sometimes so this don't happen, if I didn't catch that and we used that as actual evidence, we'd have been building off a a blatant falsehood).
- 4. Assume because Zeno went nuclear IZ must've fused with the whole timeline (Not true, so much evidence against this).
- 5. That because he targeted reality, it killed IZ? Like what?
Now what you actually proved
1. DBS makes a clear distinction between uchu and the whole of reality. They simply say IZ was trying to fuse the universe. You posted an example that differentiates the whole cosmology (zen-uchu) with the base universes (same paragraph refers to the 18 universes as simply uchu like they do in the IZ scene, while that bio makes clear that all of creation is denoted as something else).
That's it actually, you only gave counterevidence to your claim everything else by your own admission is simply reasoning you conjured up that is an interpretation, or the exact opposite of what you intended.
This is ignoring how you ignored all of Zeno's caveats, the fact he didn't expand so far as to merge with Zeno's palace yet (so direct evidence he failed a complete merger before dying), everything to do with ki, etc, whatever, and then all the OTHER points discussed like time warps, hax, and a mountain of other things, such as your whole "Zeno deleted reality so it killed him", like yeah it did, but why ignore how your very logic would apply even if he only fused with a part of it too instead of all of it? Like deleting all of reality and he's only fused with U7, or hell let's say U7, 6, 8, 9, 10, he'd still die under that same logic because he's still fused with a facet of it.
While we know he didn't merge with the past at all, because by your own logic, to kill him necessitates the pruning of what he is fused with, so if he's fused with an aspect of the past, that portion would need to be deleted as he is now "that reality" too to some degree (This didn't happen). Like there's still so much against it that would need to be tackled no matter, and we did tackle it, even if you managed to prove but one facet true in your claim as 100%, that still wouldn't be enough as it isn't just one manbe but a handful that's being claimed.
I would say I'd appreciate it if we didn't retread the exact same arguments, but ironic as it might be, you did bring something new to the table, it just wasn't what you intended it to be.
Now, can we please finish this already finished thread? I gotta spend 8 hour tracing pixels for the boys.
Only new piece of info that's been brought up, is how they use 全宇宙 when talking about the whole multiverse/hypertimeline/whatever, yet in every scene involving IZ, they simply say 宇宙 (space, outerspace, the physical universe, singular), and even in the bio that specifies 全宇宙, they simply call the 18 universes or the smaller singular universes embedded in the greater scope as just 宇宙 (So the same thing Gowasu and the pamphlet says, ie, U7), which is to say, DBS actively has terms of the hypertimeline and words for the singular worlds, and IZ is exclusively used with wording denoting the latter, never the former, as in, more evidence he didn't fuse with the whole hypertimeline, when coupled with everything else.
Edit:
Uhm, I was busy typing chat my bad gang...
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It is finished and the first option was chosen. If you want to make a downgrade thread feel free to make one.
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Is the thread fine to be closed?
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Bro what, I think it was self evident that I wrote that before a conclusion was reached? I kind of even said exactly that, why even reply after the edit?
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If the revisions have been applied then yes
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Zamasu infinite 5D 
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My hater goggles activated at the thought of the thread going on that I ignored the edit.
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Yeah they're done. It can be closed.
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