Infinite Zamasu: A dreadful upgrade

[StekFence]

Fair, I just wanted to throw it out there.

For instance, if Goku got sliced in half and his ki output dropped immensely, it would be pretty fair to say it’s because he just got ******* sliced in half, and not, “Oh it’s a coincidence.” “IZ performs significantly worse and acts as if he lacks critical ki facets, but there’s no correlation”. Wouldn’t that sound weird?

Actually, lemme take a go at myself rq. Providing a reason for IZ becoming weaker isn’t even strictly important, because strength in db changes all the time for no reason at all. Especially in SH, you got stuff like goten and trunks actually not training, and instead of stagnating like Gohan, they actively grow in power. And it’s a crazy ass leap too.
Infinite Zamasu by pure inverse statements and showings just doesn’t show the power that Fused Zamasu had. Who cares why. The fact there’s a likely reason is nice and all but ultimately doesn’t change the fact that he performs worse.

 

[Dalesean027]

No, it's the only thing with actual proof. Look I know I said the word conjecture a lot here but that doesn't mean you can just use it as a buzzword when it doesn't apply, this is one of the few pieces of solid proof we do have.

If it's shown, and yes, it is shown, that's not conjecture, it's the only thing here that isn't.

Are we losing the plot? He had already, in your own words, breached it, like 3 minutes prior to when that happened. Why'd he just sit on his ass doing nothing if, according to you, he had already completed the merge? I shouldn't have to explain this, again.

This isn't playing with his food, this is doing nothing and screeching and acting insane. He never did that, before this, I'm not humoring this grasping.

No Black is dead dude, this is simply the immortal facet of him.

He says he might be able to. If Goku can, in your own words, sense Zamasu's power (which is what enables future scaling too ig), there would be no "might", he would know it's hopeless even if he did.
And I never said it was a debunk, but thinking on it, it kind of is? That's far more concrete then the assumptions going on elsewhere.

How ki works isn't conjecture, in fact it's even written and sourced with citations on or ki page, like how most of your claims should be, yet aren't.
Unless you mean Goku wanting to box him? Hate to break it to you but Goku saying he might be able to do something if he was at full power, isn't conjecture, it's what he says explicitly.
Or do you mean Zamasu attacking and it not doing anything or being shown different? That isn't conjecture either my dude, it's the only attacking feat he even has, it takes precedence over everything you have and can say here.

Yep, ability, but is that due to AP?
Nope, you have to prove it, and when everything suggests otherwise and his actual on screen feats show a stagnation if not drop in power, it is very much on you to prove your claim here and it's getting very tiresome that you've been told as much to do so not only by me, but by multiple mods.

Yes there is, unless Ki suddenly started working differently here for some reason, in which case throw this entire premise out because the only thing you have to argue here is that his ki grew with the merger, but if ki suddenly working on new rules, well that's ou the window we have no idea how ki works now here.

And what do you mean zero evidence? In fact on our very wiki
"Shōki (正しょう気き"Right-mindedness") is implied to be one's mental state, meaning that by maintaining self-control, balance and staying true to yourself, it is possible to increase your capability in battle."

We already accept one of the pillars of ki to being in one's right mind and Zamasu very much wasn't.
We know if one of these pillars becomes imbalanced, it can cause a massive drop in ki, energy and even output. I could go grab the daizenshuu scan explaining it too but I think someone already posted an excerpt from it earlier?

This is an established fact stated flat out in numerous guides.
And "grew infinitely weaker", not how this works, I'm saying he didn't grow at all, not that he grew weaker. Just that this would, in fact, compromise your claim even if he did grow stronger, but fact of the matter is you haven't even proven he got stronger at all to begin with.

You're putting your cart before your horse, using your preconceived conclusion as evidence, I don't want your claims, I don't even want your opinion here, I want what the material itself says, and you have failed to give it every time you've been asked.

Yeah he fell asleep, he went nuclear WAY before he woke up tho i thought it was 58 years tbh.
Yeah an event he was enjoying got cancelled, so he wiped out 6 universes because he was annoyed...
Not even Beerus' world, dude's got hit with the "why you saying **** me for" meme, people got COLLATERALLED over the game.

Even IF ong, Zeno waited till Beerus woke up and waited that whole timeframe instead of "shit we cant find him grrr", that would still be magnitudes less than what IZ was doing. I can't even believe this is a conversation we have to be having, are you actually trying to justify that Zeno wiping out multiple realities over a game is even comparable to him wiping out reality because an eldritch freak who turned the world into a wasteland and he finds revolting and proves his later notion of living beings being selfish true so shit gotta go to somehow be less reason?

Exactly, nobody knows, because even a slight annoyance can set him off so nobody wants to risk it. Whis flatout says this, this isn't up for debate here, stop trying to argue the only concrete non-debatable notion in this entire thread.

He... He literally destroyed almost half of reality over something Whis called him just getting annoyed?
What?
Entire universes gone, over 1/3rd of the hypertimeline gone, over something Whis, straight up, says was him just getting annoyed. It isn't a mystery, we are explicitly told what it was over, and it's because of this everyone does everything not to set him off so that doesn't happen.
Like yeah it hasn't happened, it's also why Beerus would lick the dirt off his shoes and let him ride him like a donkey (this legit happens) just to keep him appeased.

Everyone is constantly babying him so yeah, obviously, it didn't happen. But what would happen if they didn't baby him, keep him happy, or proved his suspicions correct? Yeah he would have because that's what we're told would happen.

Oxymoron. You can't say he had no plans to do it, and then say he was giving them a chance. A chance for what? If he never planned to do it why was he giving anyone a chance to begin with?

Also it again doesn't matter, it blatantly tells us, like this part is flatout stated, that he was contemplating it, and if anything but was made.
"If a selfish wish was made, he would have erased everything" - GP.
Like, really? Someone having fought for their lives, because of him no less, making a wish that might not be virtuous, would have had him go nuclear and wipe out the entire hypertimeline no questions asked.

And you're arguing that IZ wouldn't have been enough?

Yes lil baby toddler is a lil baby toddler who's stated he might wipe out reality if annoyed so don't risk it, who will also wipe out reality if people didn't prove to be virtuous, and that he wiped out reality when faced with an eldritch entity fusing with the world and is so far up his own ass he became an abstract idea of his own ideals who was stated to give off a wicked aura alone and as Zeno looks around seeing that this monster killed everything and ruined the world, as Goku himself rats Zamasu out for, Zeno decides to take the nuclear option.

This... Is so far beyond just a selfish wish or being annoyed that we shouldn't even be discussing this.

Did he even know?
Like legitimately, Zeno didn't know what was going on, Goku had to actually explain it to him, Zeno even ASKS Goku if he was the person who caused all that death and destruction, and Goku has to point out Zeno to him, and say "no, that bad person did all this".

Zeno, explicitly, had not a clue what was going on, didn't even seem to know wtf a Zamasu was either. The better question would be why GP didn't do anything, or the angels, but thinking on it, isn't that literally why Merus lost his powers? Probably why. They just watch, if shit happens, it happens. ansd Zeno evidently was never informed because well he straight up didn't know what was going on because he himself asks.

So yeah, that's PROBABLY why.
And thinking on it. isn't that also proof? If IZ merged with the whole hypertimeline, why IS Zeno even asking, would he have not seen him in his palace given that's also part of the hyper timeline? Kind of implies IZ didn't merge that far yet.

That's a very good question (via time warp), I'm waiting on you to prove that.

He didn't know that though? He even asks if Goku is the person who destroyed everything and Goku has to go nuh uh it was him. Zeno never once saw them do anything to prove themselves virtuous.
Also, why's that matter?

The entire ToP was people fighting to save the lives of people they care about for the most part, that did not stop Zeno from nuking them, nor was it going to stop him if anyone made a selfish wish, even though we would have known by that point there's heroes, people who fight for others, and more, like the megucas, some of the pride troopers, Gohan, and hell even Vegeta given he was going to wish back U6.

Burden of proof is on you.
He has that ability because he's this weird abstract embodiment that just pulled a shit ton of abilities out of nowhere as it is.
I don't care why he has it, did he simply exploit an existing time warp (yeah probably that's basically what they say), did he gain that ability with the rest of the dozen other abilities he just got because because? Or hell maybe you're right but if you're right you're also wrong because we know his ki didn't change by that point so his AP wouldn't have grown to begin with and thus is just a range feat.

It doesn't matter you need to prove this, that's how CRT's work, I don't need to disprove your conjecture, extrapolation, or assumptions, it's on you to prove what you're saying isn't conjecture, extrapolation, or assumptions, yet you've on record in this thread multiple times admitted that it is for that most part, so why are we even arguing still? The very fact you want a possibly is because you admit you can't prove some things.

Why would anyone think your point is wrong? The point in and of itself isn't even confirmed, that's probably why.

So? Why would his immortal soul be able to fuse with hypertime? That isn't explained. All they say is that's what he is now, it doesn't say why it enables him to do what he does. why can a soul do that? OTHER souls can't do that in DB? Why is his special? Is it because it's immortal? Well so are most souls so why his? In fact why can he become abstract from it? That makes no sense and isn't explained, like if you killed Freeza his soul wouldn't pop out and begin fusing with stuff? Even his soul in heaven wouldn't? It can't do that, it isn't possible, is it because Zamasu became abstract? Ok but why did his soul become abstract other souls can't do that, that isn't explained either?
That isn't actually explained, they just say it happened, but why? It isn't like he has that ability inherently, so why here, why now? In fact Goku Black's soul didn't and that's just a diff Zamasu.
He does all this extremely situational specific things, and yet the sole thing we're given a parallel for, you're trying to argue it's power based? Or proof he merged with the whole hyertimeline? The Time Machine didn't fuse with the whole timeline either yet it can exploit that stuff too, it's hard confirmed not a prerequisite to occur or to do it, so again, burden is on you.
Yet he does it anyway, and "clearly explained", my brother in christ, I pray I don't need to point out the irony in that sentence there right?

A character actually says something, which yep, so that's cool.
But everything that matters for your point, isn't explained or said or anything of the sort, yet you're acting as if it has even more merit?

Via his funny abstract stuff like the rest of his newfound abilities evidently.
And you're blatantly ignoring the point. Is the time machine low 1-C? Is the ring low 1-C? Are TIME WARPS low 1-C?
Nope for all that.
Do they need to be fused with the whole hypertimeline to access them? Nope.
Is IZ's example directly compared to Goku Black's usage and exploitation of a time warp with IZ being shown through a time warp? Yep.
Is that a pre-existing time warp even? Yep.

So already that's an issue, IZ didn't even make the time wrap himself, it's already, which is to say, he isn't even BREACHING the past by his own capability, he's basically just finding a pre-existing "wound" or "door" and going through that.

We know you don't need to be fused with a whole hypertimeline, have low 1-C AP, or to even be 4D and simply 3D to access them, so with all that in mind, why are you making a bunch of extra assumptions as to how he "must" be this or that to do it?

Fact is we don't know how he did it exactly, but we also know you don't need to be any of the things you said to do it, so it's on you, again, given you're suggesting the change, for it to be because of your reason, not anything else.

The whatever power system let him do this shit to begin with? Why are you even asking questions you know the answer to.
Also why it gotta be a power system? Half of his abilities and the very nature of this feat stems not from his or the UES, but specific features unique to him.

Yes actually, two very specific fringe cases who are designed to do that, doing that, is not Zamasu. In fact aren't you in this very post arguing that because IZ isn't designed to travel to the past that it don't count, so why are you assuming he has the ability of a spirit bomb or Moro built in?

Also no stop that right now, the entire cosmology doesn't have ki. Least of all the hypertimeline. Living things? Yep. Planets and stars? Yep. Annnnnd that's it actually. Anything past that is never stated, in fact we can be pretty damn sure it doesn't, like why doesn't Goku or Moro draw ki from empty space why does it have to be living planets or stars? If everything has ki why don't space got ki?
We know it doesn't all have ki anyway, things like the Rosat or WoV are noted to be completely empty, so they evidently don't got ki.
Thinking on it, I'm sure I can find dozens of statements where a character says they can't sense any ki anywhere nearby or there's no signs of ki, or etc.

Why are you extrapolating? Prove the hypertimeline has ki first.

Why the are you asking me?
You're the person saying he managed to fuse with the entire future hypertimeline in less than 30 seconds.
So pray tell why with an extra 3 minutes and an opened portal to the past, he managed to make zero progress with fusing with it?

By your logic it should take the same, or less time.

And I will continue to do so., every single time until the thread is closed, or you post sufficient evidence of your claims.

Not why actually but yep here we are.

I posted direct scans saying Zeno is a lil baby who will wipe out all of reality when annoyed (yet we're arguing he isn't for some reason...).
I posted the full clip where the Beerus line, the ki attacks, and the "breach" happen to show how Zamasu's energy absolutely did not change and when you're arguing he grew infinites (never stated) and even the sequence in which they happen and the context in which they occur yet you say he got more powerful because of it (never stated, shown the opposite), that the breach must be via power or some hing (never stated, they compare it to a hax ability even and exploiting an existing phenomena, something I also showed), and more, why in the world do I need to prove a thing past that? It's on you now to prove without a sliver of doubt your claims are fact.

Hey you do you but lots of people seem to disagree, and alternatives?
I shouldn't even be able to give a BAD alternative let alone the multiple that the source material basically says is the case anyway.

It should be undeniable, solid, no room for argumentation, yet here we are.

"Hey bro that's just like when Goku black did the thing"
"hey it's probably like when Goku black did the thing"

"I have no idea whats going on but i sense zamasu here in the past"
"hey beerus just means he can sense zamasu in the past and beyond that has no idea by his own admission whats actually going on"

"zeno is a baby"
"hey bros the show says and shows like 20 times zeno is a baby"

"he never uses his size for anything"
"bros he never uses his size for anything..."

"i could probably box zamasu if i was at full power, also we just deflected and tanked multiple attacks from him"
"hey bros i dont think zamasu got any stronger from merging based on the fact Goku seems to think his ass still got a chance at peak power and also the fact the only time we see him doing something he very much isnt stronger, and might even be weaker"

"ki gets weaker, unstable, and unable to be properly controlled and outputted depending on mental state"
"bros zamasu is literally going insane..."
And there's your claims. He fully merged with the timeline, based on nothing stated or shown, most we get to see is future U7's mortal world, so it's not like they show it.
You claim it must be power or full merging that enabled him to breach the past, but it's basically certain he used a time warp so that wouldn't even BE his feat to begin with.
You try to shift the burden that I have to prove how he accessed a time warp, as if everything else in that scene isn't evidence enough that he's pulling powers out his ass, not like it'd matter, it's still an unknown variable you need to prove as fact, not guess or assert you equally unknown stance.
You keep trying to argue Zeno is actually this tempered stoic 2deep4u entity when we're shown and lat out told by multiple characters that he isn't, and would go nuclear over far less.
You even tried to mply Zeno somehow had knowledge of this, yet we know for a fact he didn't.


Yes they can, and should.
It accomplishes plenty, it either forces the OP to give sufficient evidence, or shows that it might not actually be as solid as claimed.

To show how your arguments lack in solid foundation and are based on conjecture or assumptions or needing a bunch of variables to fit perfectly together to conclude your verdict, which you have admitted to so not sure why we're backpedaling here, and there's a slew of unknown variables/suggestions that implicate your claim isn't even the case, and in some cases flat out contradictions to the entire premise at hand like Zamasu's ONLY time using ki attacks, not being any stronger at all, which takes precedence over you trying to proclaim he got stronger for merging when they never say he got stronger, never showed he got stronger and the only reason we assume this is due to meta vsbw memes not anything in the actual material.

I have provided alternative explanations, you might not like them, I don't care if you like them, of course you wouldn't like them, you want this other thing, that is fine, you can have your opinion, but what matters is what other people think.

Debunk... Dude you haven't even proven it yet.
The entire reason why you're arguing for a possibly is because you can't actually prove it as fact.
There's nothing to debunk, you're uggetsing a compromise as if we have to take a middle ground, no we don't, you either prove it, or nothing happens.
It means everything because the burden of proof IS on you. Why even settle for Low 1-C at that point argue for 1-A or something, if we're just saying "well maybe it's that high", why stop at low 1-C?

Hax? Yes, they compare it to a hax ability, show it via a hax exploitation, and IZ most certainly wouldn't be lacking in that department either. It's just as likely, if not more so, than the alternative claim.
Burden of proof? Yes welcome to VSBW were you must give proof if you make a CRT or want something changed.
And that last bit again, became infinitely weaker? You haven't even proven he became infinitely stronger, if you did there wouldn't even be a debate here. I'm arguing he didn't really change, based on the fact his ki output didn't really change. That's not even guesswork, like my dude, that straight up happens and even has a backing statement. That bit alone is enough proof to shut this whole CRT down as it is, because at that point you need explicit statements like he got stronger, and we know he can't use the cosmology or size itself to attack, which you even conceded to.

I don't understand, have we lost the meaning of what making a CRT entails? I don't need to give proof to debunk your self-admitted conjecture, the fact there's other options is enough. The fact I have given some concrete proof is beyond enough. Like why are we acting like the victim here, this is just how the wiki works, prove it, don't say "I explained it", don't say "I think", either it is, or it isn't, you haven't even gotten past that point yet.

^^^^ says it all

so back to the question from my first post here after reviewing the thread. Do the supporters making these claims for said ratings actually have any concrete evidence and implications and not just vibes?

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Idk if this has been brought before, but Zen'oh being capable of erasing all 12 universes was brought as something impressive and fearsome by characters like Whis and Beerus (references on Zen'oh's profile, AP section). Something that wouldn't make much sense if everyone in the cast could do it (remember ki being UES means range also scales. So every Low 1-C character shall be capable of doing so).

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I haven't been able to keep up with this thread (only loosely following the comments) but I'll still drop my thoughts, Gonna be honest, I'm not really seeing Low 1-C being the most valid interpretation going off the OP. Chariot already brought up several of my thoughts that I had with points of the OP but I'll still write my thoughts out to avoid that "It's just people FRA one person's disagreement". This is gonna be short because this thread has gone on long enough.

My Issues

Regarding the the scope of the fusion first. The OP brings up IZ being stated to be fusing with universe 7 (with us seeing him branch out to space and the fact that he teaches into a different timeline shows us the temporal aspect). The argument however that the universe isn't stated to be his limit doesn't really hold up in my opinion.

This is due to the fact that it's not stated or shown he reaches the "hypertimeline" in the fusion, just a statement that he's becoming one with the universe. And before someone says, it didn't say or show that to be his limit doesn't work because the evidence used as support doesn't hold up. What I mean by that is IZ isn't required to reach higher dimensional status to reach another hypertimeline since the Time Rings grant the ability to reach another and even a Time Machine can do it. The simple answer would be Zamasu gained the ability to reach other timelines, which is an ability range feat.

And before someone says, he doesn't have a time ring or time machine or had this ability prior, that is irrelevant. Transformations give characters new abilities be it in Dragon Ball or any other verse which is why we started using tabbers for characters forms so the more basic assumption would be it's a range feat from his new ability gained from his new state of existence, nothing more from what I can see. He doesn't need to fuse with the hypertimeline to do what he's doing, just passing his essence from one to the other in a manner other things have shown like Time Rings or Time Machine.

Now regarding the argument about Zeno not knowing the events. I don't think they hold up, this isn't about mortals anymore, if Infinite Zamasu was indeed trying to fuse with the hypertimeline, Zeno would have noticed because Zamasu face would be everywhere, and no the location doesn't matter. To say a potential reason Zeno didn't notice because his palace inside is pocket dimension is irrelevant, since the universes inside the hypertimeline are there own dimensions yet Zamasu appears inside universe 7. Zeno's palace would need to not be connected to the hypertimeline for Zamasu not to invade his palace and when you're arguing he's trying to be the one true God, Zeno would be his first target.

Another part is that Zeno does watch the universes (Main timeline Zeno does, not this one that we no of) so he'd no so it's inconsistent. My issue is the doesn't help your point, if the argument doesn't hold weight, it wouldn't be a talking point. Now this isn't 100% I'm right and you're wrong, I'm simply just explaining that it is an issue, it impacts the argument regardless of how minor one would think.

My Overall Thoughts

What I generally think is that IZ didn't fuse with the hypertimeline, he simply fused with the universe and gained the ability to send his essence to other timelines. Him getting a new ability to do that isn't impossible, as I mentioned, transformations or a new state of existence do grant abilities and this is definitely the change in state that would do it.

Now in the end, sure IZ potentially is fusing with the hypertimeline but that's one of other interpretations based on what's stated and shown but I just don't think that's required and lacks the solid evidence. However if where looking to just end this discussion and I had to choose between the choices given in the previous comments. I'm going with Option/Scenario 1(2-C, eventually/up to Low 1-C for Infinite Zamasu), I'd rather this not get dragged on, that's why I made my thoughts short.

Now if I missed a core point of the OP argument the feel free to let me know, I'll look over it and change stance if needed, again I haven't had the time to read everything argument in detail. As of right now though, I don't see him fusing with the entire hypertimeline to be the most valid thing at the moment. But this thread is 10 pages deep which is why I just selected the option out of the 3 I found acceptable enough.

 

[TiltedFN]

My Issues

Regarding the the scope of the fusion first. The OP brings up IZ being stated to be fusing with universe 7 (with us seeing him branch out to space and the fact that he teaches into a different timeline shows us the temporal aspect). The argument however that the universe isn't stated to be his limit doesn't really hold up in my opinion.

I wasn't planning on responding anymore but since this is in response to the thread I'll tackle it since I have some issues.

I mean, it literally isn't his limit as shown, like him breaching the space between timelines, and starting to infect the main one. It's not really a matter of opinion here. He literally did go beyond just future universe 7.

This is due to the fact that it's not stated or shown he reaches the "hypertimeline" in the fusion, just a statement that he's becoming one with the universe

I don't understand what you mean here.

"This is due to the fact that it's not stated or shown he reaches the "hypertimeline" in the fusion"

He did reach the present timeline, that's why he showed up in the first place. That literally doesn't happen if he can't actually leave the future timeline after establishing that connection.

. And before someone says, it didn't say or show that to be his limit doesn't work because the evidence used as support doesn't hold up. What I mean by that is IZ isn't required to reach higher dimensional status to reach another hypertimeline since the Time Rings grant the ability to reach another and even a Time Machine can do it.

This doesn't work since something like the time ring is literally "constructed" for that very purpose, those are the functions of it. Zamasu doesn't have a time ring, he's not a time machine nor is he able to actually use one since he merged with space and time. All he has is his new state and power to do this. In order for the time ring to establish that connection to another 5th dimensional hypertimeline in the first place, it had to rip through the hypertimeline and into another one to do this. Time rings are physical representations/manifestations of the hypertimeline itself. They aren't made by anyone, they manifest when new parallel worlds (hypertimelines) are made.

The simple answer would be Zamasu gained the ability to reach other timelines, which is an ability range feat.

And before someone says, he doesn't have a time ring or time machine or had this ability prior, that is irrelevant. Transformations give characters new abilities be it in Dragon Ball or any other verse which is why we started using tabbers for characters forms so the more basic assumption would be it's a range feat from his new ability gained from his new state of existence, nothing more from what I can see. He doesn't need to fuse with the hypertimeline to do what he's doing, just passing his essence from one to the other in a manner other things have shown like Time Rings or Time Machine.

I mean this isn't really a transformation for Zamasu in the usual sense like Super Saiyan forms, Frieza's forms, etc. It's literally just Zamasu's essence starting to merge with time and space after his physical body was destroyed. He didn't have it then so why does he have it now? If we continue to go down this route, Zamasu absolutely has to fuse with the hypertimeline to do something like this. Infinite Zamasu and what he did was explained, the whole shenanigans with the portal is not. So why does he have the ability? Especially since a physical manifestation of the hypertimeline (time ring) was the only thing capable of establishing that connection. That means Zamasu has to be that representation/embodiment to even begin doing something like this and going further, and this is if you are comparing it to the time ring. Not the time machine since there is literally no precedence at all for them being similar. It's still something specifically designed for that task regardless. You say he doesn't have to be the hypertimeline to pass his essence, but why? I already explained why this would have to be the case in terms of establishing connection, so you need to give me a reason for your claim.

Now regarding the argument about Zeno not knowing the events. I don't think they hold up, this isn't about mortals anymore,

Zamasu's entire ideology is about Gods and Mortals. Along with other things like Justice, the system, this and that. I mean what do you think started this whole thing?

if Infinite Zamasu was indeed trying to fuse with the hypertimeline, Zeno would have noticed because Zamasu face would be everywhere, and no the location doesn't matter. To say a potential reason Zeno didn't notice because his palace inside is pocket dimension is irrelevant, since the universes inside the hypertimeline are there own dimensions yet Zamasu appears inside universe 7.

It really does matter, Zeno's palace is not much known about, it's a dimension inside of another dimension. And besides, I already mentioned that Zeno not knowing about this is actually just pointless to know about since he didn't know about ANYTHING that was happening in the future timeline at all. Why didn't the Grand Priest or Zeno do anything about Goku Blacks rampage? Did they not know that all their angels, destroyers, and kais were either killed or deactivated? It's not the question of why Zeno didn't know about it, it's the question of why Zeno didn't know about ANYTHING at all going on in the future. Trying to argue about it is pointless since Zeno erasing the world leads us to believe it is indeed infected by Zamasu already as I explained.

Another part is that Zeno does watch the universes (Main timeline Zeno does, not this one that we no of) so he'd no so it's inconsistent. My issue is the doesn't help your point, if the argument doesn't hold weight, it wouldn't be a talking point. Now this isn't 100% I'm right and you're wrong, I'm simply just explaining that it is an issue, it impacts the argument regardless of how minor one would think.

Again, I don't really understand what you're saying here. I mean it seems you acknowledge future Zeno doesn't watch over the universes (at least at the point these events transpired) so why doesn't the argument hold weight besides saying it just doesn't? You need to elaborate more here.

Now in the end, sure IZ potentially is fusing with the hypertimeline but that's one of other interpretations based on what's stated and shown but I just don't think that's required and lacks the solid evidence. However if where looking to just end this discussion and I had to choose between the choices given in the previous comments. I'm going with Option/Scenario 1(2-C, eventually/up to Low 1-C for Infinite Zamasu), I'd rather this not get dragged on, that's why I made my thoughts short.

Eventually and Up to Low 1-C are wildly different options here. So you need to make it clear on which one you're picking here.

Now if I missed a core point of the OP argument the feel free to let me know, I'll look over it and change stance if needed, again I haven't had the time to read everything argument in detail. As of right now though, I don't see him fusing with the entire hypertimeline to be the most valid thing at the moment. But this thread is 10 pages deep which is why I just selected the option out of the 3 I found acceptable enough.

I do think you missed some core parts of the arguments. So I'll wait for you to respond, at least to clarify which of the two "Eventually or Up to" you we're going for.

 

[Chariot190]

As an fyi, Dale & Mav explicitly, and I think Damage disagree with the OP. Qawsed I'm unsure but last he said he was leaning toward merely an eventual and nobody scales, and then Griffin.

That's a 3-1 staff vote (Viet being the 1) with 2 green names, potentially 5-1 if I'm not mistaken.
it would be 6-1 if bro stopped hiding.

I mean, it literally isn't his limit as shown, like him breaching the space between timelines, and starting to infect the main one. It's not really a matter of opinion here. He literally did go beyond just future universe 7.

How? Why? You keep saying he did but keep foregoing the fact we don't know why exactly, there's at least a dozen interpretations, and you refuse to prove your version as an explicit fact.

"This is due to the fact that it's not stated or shown he reaches the "hypertimeline" in the fusion"

He did reach the present timeline, that's why he showed up in the first place. That literally doesn't happen if he can't actually leave the future timeline after establishing that connection.

False connection.
He doesn't need to fuse with the whole hypertimeline to breach the past. We've gone over this. Time machines can, time rings can, he can given they flatout compare it to a time ring example and he blatantly uses a time warp to do so.

This doesn't work since something like the time ring is literally "constructed" for that very purpose, those are the functions of it.

It does work because it proves that you don't need any of the "requirements" you keep saying he must have to do it, because we know for a fact you don't need them.

It then becomes on you to prove that it's a power or whatever thing, which, you have yet to prove.

Zamasu doesn't have a time ring, he's not a time machine nor is he able to actually use one since he merged with space and time. All he has is his new state and power to do this.

Yes, all he has is his new state (and power) to do this. Notice how it's not "power" exclusively, but the fact he's this weird noncorporal abstract demon thing now too, which complicates your claims greatly.
Also he doesn't even do it himself, he's blatantly using a time warp because that's what it's shown so it's not even under his own "power" that he's doing it.

In order for the time ring to establish that connection to another 5th dimensional hypertimeline in the first place, it had to rip through the hypertimeline and into another one to do this.

No it didn't?
It used a time warp left by Trunk's time machine? They explain this in detail in like ep 51 or 50 iirc?

Time rings are physical representations/manifestations of the hypertimeline itself. They aren't made by anyone, they manifest when new parallel worlds (hypertimelines) are made.

This doesn't matter, they're not low 1-C, they're not even HDE, they don't do it via power, and IZ's case is directly compared to how they did it, as well as looking like it, showing up in a place with confirmed time warps, exclusively mind you he never bridged out past that small location in Capsule Corp, and so forth.

I mean this isn't really a transformation for Zamasu in the usual sense like Super Saiyan forms, Frieza's forms, etc. It's literally just Zamasu's essence starting to merge with time and space after his physical body was destroyed. He didn't have it then so why does he have it now?

He didn't have the ability to become an abstract idea to fuse with time and space itself either, but this is where you draw the line?
Him doing something we know for a fact you don't need to be low 1-C to do, something that in his very own case of doing it is compared to a case with a time warp, localized ENTIRELY in Bulma's kitchen with a confirmed time warp and nowhere else even without the numerous supporting evidence?
That, is where you draw the line, not the fact the dude became an eldritch abomination who can suddenly become his own ideal and fuse with time and space, nah, this is to much for you?

He didn't have the ability to breach the past before too so I guess he just didn't, in fact that makes sense if we take the blatant time warp interpretation, it wouldn't even be him doing it, he'd just be exploiting a pre-existing thing much like Goku Black did (which his emergence is directly stated to be just like that time).

If we continue to go down this route, Zamasu absolutely has to fuse with the hypertimeline to do something like this.

No he doesn't, he doesn't have to do absolutely anything. It isn't even new. Goku Black was already messing with space-time and creating some sort of rifts before with his scythe.
Don't assert something that absolutely doesn't have to be the case as somehow the only possible solution or route, it isn't, and if you want to claim that you best post a direct hard statement, end of.

Infinite Zamasu and what he did was explained, the whole shenanigans with the portal is not. So why does he have the ability?

You just self sabotaged your entire thread.
You're right, it isn't explained (except it kind of is, they directly state it's just like the time Goku Black came, which is true, they both used a purple rift in space, which we are explained to by Whis iirc, to be a time warp, basically a "wound" or a "door" between timelines left by the Time Machine as it travels over which can be exploited by someone to travel between the timelines. The Time Ring was able to lock onto these somehow because it just could, exploit it, and travel to the past, IZ, clearly did the same based on the fact they say it's just like the time, a fact they wouldn't have even written into the story if not the case).
Anything past that you need to use guesswork or extra assumptions for, we don't do that here.

Also IZ and what he did wasn't explained, they just say that it happened, they don't explain why him in particular, they don't say why he's special, I'm not repeating everything I've said 3 times today again, you know why. You're simply saying he "explained" it there, as if the absence of evidence for your case, acts as evidence itself, it doesn't.

Especially since a physical manifestation of the hypertimeline (time ring) was the only thing capable of establishing that connection.

And ya know, a Time Machine, can't forget that.
So that "only" there is straight up, factually, incorrect.

That means Zamasu has to be that representation/embodiment to even begin doing something like this and going further,

Since when was a Time Machine the physical embodiment of a hypertimeline?
You keep saying "has to be" or "must be", no it doesn't dude. Conjecture or extrapolation isn't proof, and the absence of proof is DEFINITELY not proof. Which is what most of the arguments have devolved into, not proof, not evidence, but "there's no proof it ISNT the case", like bro that isn't how this works?

and this is if you are comparing it to the time ring.

Well they compare the actual method so that's that.

Not the time machine since there is literally no precedence at all for them being similar. It's still something specifically designed for that task regardless.

Doesn't matter.
We have two blatant examples in the very same saga as critical plot points that are neither HDE, low 1-C, or do it via power but rather hax let alone while being fused with the entire hyper timeline, doing exactly what happened here.
You can make excuses but based on what we know, what is actually fact, none of the things you say have to happen, have to actually happen.
Which means burden of proof is on you to prove it.

You say he doesn't have to be the hypertimeline to pass his essence, but why? I already explained why this would have to be the case in terms of establishing connection, so you need to give me a reason for your claim.

No you didn't, you simply asserted it has to be the case because because, you haven't actually proven it. You can explain it all you want, you can explain anything if you try hard enough, but your explanation isn't canon nor indisputable fact.
It is simply extrapolation or conjecture that you have put together based on various disconnected pieces of information while handwaving anything that might complicate your stance. That is what it is, there is nothing wrong with that either, like personally I think that mf Purple Haze is def at least on par with some of the higher end Part 5 Stands in stats, unfortunately, vibes is not proof so his ass is stuck in baby 9-B hell for all eternity...
But we are not here to index that, we're here to index what can actually be proven or what is truly the case.

And no, NOBODY has to give you reason for their claim, you're OP, you want things changed, burden of proof is on you to prove the things being asked, you haven't.

Zamasu's entire ideology is about Gods and Mortals. Along with other things like Justice, the system, this and that. I mean what do you think started this whole thing?

Completely irrelevant, he an do whatever he pleases, he can have whatever end goal he wants, he can even actually be attempting to do exactly as you say, but that isn't proof he finished in time.

It really does matter, Zeno's palace is not much known about, it's a dimension inside of another dimension.

And also part of the hypertimeline. Hard confirmed, if we want to discredit it, we're going to be discrediting a lot of things that even give DBZ this alleged hypertimeline as a whole, if that is what we want, will go compile the numerous contradictions and we can make a new thread about it, but as long as under the current premise, it is what it is.
Also like, we KNOW Zeno's palace is part of the hypertimeline because there's a future Zeno to begin with.
The future has its own Zeno's Palace, ergo it's part of the future timeline, if he didn't fuse with it, like you seem to now be indirectly arguing but under the guise of "well it don't count", means he didn't fuse with the whole hypertimeline as a fact.

You can't be cherry picking here. Especially when your whole claim is he fused with the entire scope of it so he MUST be one with the whole future hypertimeline to reach or exploit a time warp, yet suddenly he can't even reach into a part of that OWN hyper timeline on a 4D scale? Would almost imply he exploited a time warp ngl.

And besides, I already mentioned that Zeno not knowing about this is actually just pointless to know about since he didn't know about ANYTHING that was happening in the future timeline at all.

That is true. Which completely shuts down the "why he wouldn't go nuclear right away" arguments.
He had no knowledge, he didn't even know what bro was doing or who he was, yet still went 0 to 11 insantly.

Why didn't the Grand Priest or Zeno do anything about Goku Blacks rampage?

Because GP actively refrains from interacting or helping and let's things play out as they do whatever that might be, and Zeno, well he obviously didn't know given Goku has to explain to him what's even going on and Zeno himself is confused at first and even asks if Goku was the cause of it all.

Did they not know that all their angels, destroyers, and kais were either killed or deactivated?

GP probably did, Zeno was probably busy being a toddler. Why GP didn't act doesn't matter though, he isn't Zeno.

It's not the question of why Zeno didn't know about it, it's the question of why Zeno didn't know about ANYTHING at all going on in the future. Trying to argue about it is pointless since Zeno erasing the world leads us to believe it is indeed infected by Zamasu already as I explained.

No it isn't.
We are told that Zeno can, and will, destroy reality if annoyed, even over trivial things if not careful, flatout stated by Whis, this is not a topic of debate it is hard fact.
We also know, this very Zeno, plus the main Zeno, were going to destroy all of existence if someone so much as was selfish instead of virtuous. This includes people Zeno even likes such as Goku, bro does not give a shit.

So we have this monster, that he didn't even know existed 5 seconds ago, who he looks at and flatout says is disgusting, and he says this after looking around, seeing everything is dead, ruined, no life is left, and Goku says "hey bro HE did this".
I would think based on what we know of Zeno, especially what he does in the very next saga, that being threaten all of reality over something Zamasu embodied in spades x10000, would be reason enough to go nuclear, and mind you, it isn't like Zeno can sense that shit either, we know his ki sensing is kind of ass because they say as much in the ToP, and Goku had to point out IZ to him to begin.
Do you really think Zeno KNEW the scope at which IZ would have been? No, he wouldn't have, there's no way for him to know, his ki sensing isn't good enough, and in that very same scene he didn't even sense IZ RIGHT ABOVE HIM till Goku pointed him out. Meaning, it isn't even possible for Zeno to have concluded to go nuclear because "IZ fused a bunch" because he isn't even capable of sensing everything himself as it is to even know how far IZ expanded.

Again, I don't really understand what you're saying here. I mean it seems you acknowledge future Zeno doesn't watch over the universes (at least at the point these events transpired) so why doesn't the argument hold weight besides saying it just doesn't? You need to elaborate more here.

Because your whole argument is based on maybes and then just assuming Zeno would know how much he encompassed when everything points, even that very scene points to, him not knowing even remotely.
So Zeno going nuclear is not only NOT a frame of reference to gauge if IZ completed a merge, but is basically a anti-feat in and of itself as if IZ DID complete the merge, Zeno kind of would have seen him before he got there because Zeno's palace is, in fact, part of the hyper timeline, That didn't happen, so IZ must not have completed the merge yet.

Eventually and Up to Low 1-C are wildly different options here. So you need to make it clear on which one you're picking here.

He did, eventually, option 1, that is the option 1 Qawsed gave.

I do think you missed some core parts of the arguments. So I'll wait for you to respond, at least to clarify which of the two "Eventually or Up to" you we're going for.

He probably did, that isn't a good thing though given we also have to tackle the fact IZ can't use the size anyway so can't get stats from that, has blatant contradictions to power growth, hypertimeline don't even got ki so that can't even be a factor into saying he got stronger, Goku and gang think maybe at full power they might be able to do something which coupled with his stagnant ki output shows he didn't change in output, everything from the out of context Beerus line, and more, like uh, why did he take less than 30 seconds to fuse with the future hyper timeline, create a rift via that "power" according to you, and then just like..... Not doing anything for at least a few minutes even after Zeno got summoned and his ass should have known he was cooked? Not to mention the entire premise is built on something they never even say anywhere ever (that he would get stronger doing this thing), like the very conclusion is just a assumption, one contradicted by his actual showings no less, we shouldn't even be humoring this anymore.
Every single argument that's been new has been against the OP, you're still saying the same exact things from page 1, except maybe the odd "Zeno secretly doesn't go nuclear despite direct statements" or now just trying to alter the very cosmology you're trying to use to scale him because there's another blatant contradiction to the fact he merged with it at all at play.

 

[Shar122]

As an fyi, Dale & Mav explicitly, and I think Damage disagree with the OP. Qawsed I'm unsure but last he said he was leaning toward merely an eventual and nobody scales, and then Griffin.

That's a 3-1 staff vote (Viet being the 1) with 2 green names, potentially 5-1 if I'm not mistaken.
it would be 6-1 if bro stopped hiding.

How? Why? You keep saying he did but keep foregoing the fact we don't know why exactly, there's at least a dozen interpretations, and you refuse to prove your version as an explicit fact.

False connection.
He doesn't need to fuse with the whole hypertimeline to breach the past. We've gone over this. Time machines can, time rings can, he can given they flatout compare it to a time ring example and he blatantly uses a time warp to do so.

It does work because it proves that you don't need any of the "requirements" you keep saying he must have to do it, because we know for a fact you don't need them.

It then becomes on you to prove that it's a power or whatever thing, which, you have yet to prove.

Yes, all he has is his new state (and power) to do this. Notice how it's not "power" exclusively, but the fact he's this weird noncorporal abstract demon thing now too, which complicates your claims greatly.
Also he doesn't even do it himself, he's blatantly using a time warp because that's what it's shown so it's not even under his own "power" that he's doing it.

No it didn't?
It used a time warp left by Trunk's time machine? They explain this in detail in like ep 51 or 50 iirc?

This doesn't matter, they're not low 1-C, they're not even HDE, they don't do it via power, and IZ's case is directly compared to how they did it, as well as looking like it, showing up in a place with confirmed time warps, exclusively mind you he never bridged out past that small location in Capsule Corp, and so forth.

He didn't have the ability to become an abstract idea to fuse with time and space itself either, but this is where you draw the line?
Him doing something we know for a fact you don't need to be low 1-C to do, something that in his very own case of doing it is compared to a case with a time warp, localized ENTIRELY in Bulma's kitchen with a confirmed time warp and nowhere else even without the numerous supporting evidence?
That, is where you draw the line, not the fact the dude became an eldritch abomination who can suddenly become his own ideal and fuse with time and space, nah, this is to much for you?

He didn't have the ability to breach the past before too so I guess he just didn't, in fact that makes sense if we take the blatant time warp interpretation, it wouldn't even be him doing it, he'd just be exploiting a pre-existing thing much like Goku Black did (which his emergence is directly stated to be just like that time).

No he doesn't, he doesn't have to do absolutely anything. It isn't even new. Goku Black was already messing with space-time and creating some sort of rifts before with his scythe.
Don't assert something that absolutely doesn't have to be the case as somehow the only possible solution or route, it isn't, and if you want to claim that you best post a direct hard statement, end of.

You just self sabotaged your entire thread.
You're right, it isn't explained (except it kind of is, they directly state it's just like the time Goku Black came, which is true, they both used a purple rift in space, which we are explained to by Whis iirc, to be a time warp, basically a "wound" or a "door" between timelines left by the Time Machine as it travels over which can be exploited by someone to travel between the timelines. The Time Ring was able to lock onto these somehow because it just could, exploit it, and travel to the past, IZ, clearly did the same based on the fact they say it's just like the time, a fact they wouldn't have even written into the story if not the case).
Anything past that you need to use guesswork or extra assumptions for, we don't do that here.

Also IZ and what he did wasn't explained, they just say that it happened, they don't explain why him in particular, they don't say why he's special, I'm not repeating everything I've said 3 times today again, you know why. You're simply saying he "explained" it there, as if the absence of evidence for your case, acts as evidence itself, it doesn't.

And ya know, a Time Machine, can't forget that.
So that "only" there is straight up, factually, incorrect.

Since when was a Time Machine the physical embodiment of a hypertimeline?
You keep saying "has to be" or "must be", no it doesn't dude. Conjecture or extrapolation isn't proof, and the absence of proof is DEFINITELY not proof. Which is what most of the arguments have devolved into, not proof, not evidence, but "there's no proof it ISNT the case", like bro that isn't how this works?

Well they compare the actual method so that's that.

Doesn't matter.
We have two blatant examples in the very same saga as critical plot points that are neither HDE, low 1-C, or do it via power but rather hax let alone while being fused with the entire hyper timeline, doing exactly what happened here.
You can make excuses but based on what we know, what is actually fact, none of the things you say have to happen, have to actually happen.
Which means burden of proof is on you to prove it.

No you didn't, you simply asserted it has to be the case because because, you haven't actually proven it. You can explain it all you want, you can explain anything if you try hard enough, but your explanation isn't canon nor indisputable fact.
It is simply extrapolation or conjecture that you have put together based on various disconnected pieces of information while handwaving anything that might complicate your stance. That is what it is, there is nothing wrong with that either, like personally I think that mf Purple Haze is def at least on par with some of the higher end Part 5 Stands in stats, unfortunately, vibes is not proof so his ass is stuck in baby 9-B hell for all eternity...
But we are not here to index that, we're here to index what can actually be proven or what is truly the case.

And no, NOBODY has to give you reason for their claim, you're OP, you want things changed, burden of proof is on you to prove the things being asked, you haven't.

Completely irrelevant, he an do whatever he pleases, he can have whatever end goal he wants, he can even actually be attempting to do exactly as you say, but that isn't proof he finished in time.

And also part of the hypertimeline. Hard confirmed, if we want to discredit it, we're going to be discrediting a lot of things that even give DBZ this alleged hypertimeline as a whole, if that is what we want, will go compile the numerous contradictions and we can make a new thread about it, but as long as under the current premise, it is what it is.
Also like, we KNOW Zeno's palace is part of the hypertimeline because there's a future Zeno to begin with.
The future has its own Zeno's Palace, ergo it's part of the future timeline, if he didn't fuse with it, like you seem to now be indirectly arguing but under the guise of "well it don't count", means he didn't fuse with the whole hypertimeline as a fact.

You can't be cherry picking here. Especially when your whole claim is he fused with the entire scope of it so he MUST be one with the whole future hypertimeline to reach or exploit a time warp, yet suddenly he can't even reach into a part of that OWN hyper timeline on a 4D scale? Would almost imply he exploited a time warp ngl.

That is true. Which completely shuts down the "why he wouldn't go nuclear right away" arguments.
He had no knowledge, he didn't even know what bro was doing or who he was, yet still went 0 to 11 insantly.

Because GP actively refrains from interacting or helping and let's things play out as they do whatever that might be, and Zeno, well he obviously didn't know given Goku has to explain to him what's even going on and Zeno himself is confused at first and even asks if Goku was the cause of it all.

GP probably did, Zeno was probably busy being a toddler. Why GP didn't act doesn't matter though, he isn't Zeno.

No it isn't.
We are told that Zeno can, and will, destroy reality if annoyed, even over trivial things if not careful, flatout stated by Whis, this is not a topic of debate it is hard fact.
We also know, this very Zeno, plus the main Zeno, were going to destroy all of existence if someone so much as was selfish instead of virtuous. This includes people Zeno even likes such as Goku, bro does not give a shit.

So we have this monster, that he didn't even know existed 5 seconds ago, who he looks at and flatout says is disgusting, and he says this after looking around, seeing everything is dead, ruined, no life is left, and Goku says "hey bro HE did this".
I would think based on what we know of Zeno, especially what he does in the very next saga, that being threaten all of reality over something Zamasu embodied in spades x10000, would be reason enough to go nuclear, and mind you, it isn't like Zeno can sense that shit either, we know his ki sensing is kind of ass because they say as much in the ToP, and Goku had to point out IZ to him to begin.
Do you really think Zeno KNEW the scope at which IZ would have been? No, he wouldn't have, there's no way for him to know, his ki sensing isn't good enough, and in that very same scene he didn't even sense IZ RIGHT ABOVE HIM till Goku pointed him out. Meaning, it isn't even possible for Zeno to have concluded to go nuclear because "IZ fused a bunch" because he isn't even capable of sensing everything himself as it is to even know how far IZ expanded.

Because your whole argument is based on maybes and then just assuming Zeno would know how much he encompassed when everything points, even that very scene points to, him not knowing even remotely.
So Zeno going nuclear is not only NOT a frame of reference to gauge if IZ completed a merge, but is basically a anti-feat in and of itself as if IZ DID complete the merge, Zeno kind of would have seen him before he got there because Zeno's palace is, in fact, part of the hyper timeline, That didn't happen, so IZ must not have completed the merge yet.

He did, eventually, option 1, that is the option 1 Qawsed gave.

He probably did, that isn't a good thing though given we also have to tackle the fact IZ can't use the size anyway so can't get stats from that, has blatant contradictions to power growth, hypertimeline don't even got ki so that can't even be a factor into saying he got stronger, Goku and gang think maybe at full power they might be able to do something which coupled with his stagnant ki output shows he didn't change in output, everything from the out of context Beerus line, and more, like uh, why did he take less than 30 seconds to fuse with the future hyper timeline, create a rift via that "power" according to you, and then just like..... Not doing anything for at least a few minutes even after Zeno got summoned and his ass should have known he was cooked? Not to mention the entire premise is built on something they never even say anywhere ever (that he would get stronger doing this thing), like the very conclusion is just a assumption, one contradicted by his actual showings no less, we shouldn't even be humoring this anymore.
Every single argument that's been new has been against the OP, you're still saying the same exact things from page 1, except maybe the odd "Zeno secretly doesn't go nuclear despite direct statements" or now just trying to alter the very cosmology you're trying to use to scale him because there's another blatant contradiction to the fact he merged with it at all at play.

Chariot, you're conflating lack of an explicit 100% finished fusion shit with disproof, the anime gives positive evidence that Zamasu is fusing with existence into the present timeline, Whis and Beerus feel it, even them asserting it's affecting the timestream, even Whis who can reverse and has the range to affect the hypertimeline says it's an "unpleasant energy" that affects the whole hypertimeline as he reacts with unusual ease. There's no notion of portal being presented in the anime, it was Zamasu's existence in which it breach through the fabric of time. Possibly low 1-C is only defensible, conservative upgrade as it does not present an outright integration but rather a potential aspect of the said assertion. any denial, must contradict Whis and Beerus's explicit axioms. The OP doesn’t claim certainty — it proposes possibly Low 1-C. VS Battles’ “possibly” tag exists to account exactly for interrupted or possible feats which are uncertain. The meaningful data are the effects Whis/Beerus sensing timeline corruption and Zeno’s erasure, not whether the camera lingered for a "full fusion".
Zeno is not an omniscient entity, His failure to preempt is not the absent of IZ's spread, as it shows that Zeno is not wholly omniscient etc. Does not negate the notion of such argument, as Cryo pointed out IZ did toy with these people, and as presented before, IZ is a mindless entity which he as not unleash the force of ki" as it has missing component before.

Zamasu's explicit ideology is to become the God of existence, and impose his own twisted ideals and order upon reality. This is a Literalized notion of such ambition, his existence becoming self is the ultimate manifestation of his goal, which he wanted to eradicate mortals from all existence, as he asserted that multiple times in the anime, are we sure he will just become one merely with the universe 7 when his goal is to become the ultimate authority who annihilates all mortals? There's not even presented statements that oh "it's only a local rift that affects a mundane structure within the universe 7" as such no line exist. There's no such direct canonical statement that contradits Whis and Beerus statement pertaining to IZ itself, as you must be provide the indicator otherwise, it is a burden of proof. The Infinite Zamasu’s full fusion began in the future timeline, but its effects spread and were explicitly felt in the present hypertimeline, as Whis and Beerus explicitly stated. You need various statements of canonical anti feats that outweighs the presented evidence, as it does not show incoherent direct refutation.

If you deny this, you must show a true statements that must contradict the show's knowledgeable authorities, not just demand for an endpoint show intentionally, interpreting it as "rhetorical notion" ignores the presentation of Zamasu's ontological state in the series, there's other stuff like him affecting the "space between hypertimelines" saying it's "portal" ignores the whole premise, Zamasu did not create a portal in the series, but his existence breaches through the timestream.

In the end, I won't be replying after this (for now); my verdict is that lack of awareness does not negate the absence of his influence over the timestream, and presenting such evidence that proves IZ wil become become Low 1-C being otherwise, even if he started at 2-C.

 

[StekFence]

as presented before, IZ is a mindless entity which he as not unleash the force of ki" as it has missing component before.

Then why would we assume he’s using tier 1 levels of force, especially when characters who should far weaker are demonstrated capable of standing up to him, or say they may be able to.

any denial, must contradict Whis and Beerus's explicit axioms.

It’s hardly axiomatic.

the anime gives positive evidence that Zamasu is fusing with existence into the present timeline, Whis and Beerus feel it, even them asserting it's affecting the timestream, even Whis who can reverse and has the range to affect the hypertimeline says it's an "unpleasant energy" that affects the whole hypertimeline as he reacts with unusual ease.

As I am quoting, you said that whis and beerus saying that Zamasu affecting the timeline is proof that he reached via fusionism. However, him beginning to fuse with the present timeline, which would account for what they are saying, would not be proof of this. If you assumed that they were talking about him fusing his way here, I could see it. However that requires extra and unneeded assumptions of what’s going on.

it was Zamasu's existence in which it breach through the fabric of time.

This is not compatible with our Zamasu instance being weakened by his mind. At least if we interpret it as ap. He’s not only weakened, but unable to break shields from far weaker characters, and Goku theorizes that if he had a senzu, he could do something.

Possibly low 1-C is only defensible, conservative upgrade as it does not present an outright integration but rather a potential aspect of the said assertion. any denial, must contradict Whis and Beerus's explicit axioms. The OP doesn’t claim certainty — it proposes possibly Low 1-C. VS Battles’ “possibly” tag exists to account exactly for interrupted or possible feats which are uncertain.

Considering that him being Low 1-C at all is a position which is being argued to be unlikely if likely at all, it seems untrue to say that the possibility of it is some middle ground. And again, no axioms, and depends heavily on how you interpret their statements.

Zeno is not an omniscient entity, His failure to preempt is not the absent of IZ's spread, as it shows that Zeno is not wholly omniscient etc

Yeah he’s not omniscient. He does have eyes however. Eyes which should have noticed Zamasu if Zamasu was totally omnipresent, as in literally everywhere.

There's no such direct canonical statement that contradits Whis and Beerus statement pertaining to IZ itself, as you must be provide the indicator otherwise, it is a burden of proof

If you are going to assert in the first place that “something wrong” = “Zamasu fused into the present though sheer power which is limited and shown to be quite unremarkable” then I’d argue the burden of proof would be on you.
Now, seeing as you will not be responding, this reply is more to try to convince anyone who may have been convinced by you.

 

[Chariot190]

Chariot, you're conflating lack of an explicit 100% finished fusion shit with disproof,

You need to prove it, lack of evidence is not evidence. End of.
You just admitted there's no proof he finished 100%.
What are we doing here?

the anime gives positive evidence that Zamasu is fusing with existence into the present timeline,

Except he isn't, this isn't up for debate.
We know he did not fuse with the present timeline, not even slightly.
There's no changes to the present, but most importantly here, Zeno kills him in the future even though if he fused with the present he would have had to delete whatever portion of the present he fused with too to do so. He didn't, the past/present was completely untouched, so we know by association IZ never did merge into it whatsoever.
This isn't a point of contention, it quite literally did not happen.

So the anime gave positive evidence? No it didn't, all we get is a portal and then evidence he didn't fuse with it.

Whis and Beerus feel it,

I'm not repeating myself for the umpteenth time on that exact same topic, or maybe I will, who knows.
They felt him, after the time warp open, that is it, nothing more, nothing less.

We know that's the case because them feeling him is quite literally one second after the time warp opens.
I posted this clip already raw unedited.

even them asserting it's affecting the timestream,

And this is just wrong.
They never say that, at all, you're extrapolating off the most barebones statement imaginable.

Beerus felt Zamasu in the past, knew something must have happened because he wasn't dead/sealed in the future like he should be, and then concludes because he can feel him, something must be happening.
That is it, nothing more, nothing less. He isn't even wrong, something is happening to the past, but it is not what you're trying to say it is.

He doesn't know why he can feel him, he doesn't know what he's doing either. Because how would he? And in fact, he explicitly doesn't know which is why he hauls ass to earth to find out more. You are taking a statement made from a character who is explicitly ignorant, doesn't know anything, and all he has to go on is that he can sense someone he shouldn't from the future in the past for some reason, and you're extrapolating that to mean he's effecting THE TIME STREAM.

They don't even use that wording? Why are we ignoring context? Why even bother with what characters say at this point, just believe whatever you want?

even Whis who can reverse and has the range to affect the hypertimeline says it's an "unpleasant energy" that affects the whole hypertimeline as he reacts with unusual ease.

Oh no he doesn't, this is the single most egregious thing anyone has said in this entire thread.
Whis never says that.
In fact Whis never once mentions time, the past, or future in any way whatsoever.
He says he can feel an unpleasant energy, and of course he can, a time warp just opened at Capsule Corp, and then the immediate next frame is Whis going "damn I feel that". Of course he feels that, why wouldn't he sense an energy from earth?

But no, here you are taking Whis' abilities for some reason, his hax mind you, his very limited temporal hax at that, to somehow use that as evidence for Zamasu doing anything at all? That's beyond a false equivalence, false dichotomy, and about a dozen other fallacies.


Like we why we just spreading misinfo now? At least before people were extrapolating off the actual lines, not adding in entire new words that were never said.
And then you just spread misinfo, "says it's an energy that affects the whole hypertimeline", no he doesn't, at all, ever, this is so bad that I don't even know how this can be accidental? Whis at no point says the energy is interacting with time, he says nothing beyond he can feel an unpleasant energy, this here isn't even extrapolation or conjecture, I almost want to call it lying.

There's no notion of portal being presented in the anime,

Are we... Are we just acting now?
It's the exact same thing.
A purple rift in space, shaped like a circle, flowing off the edges, that crackles with lightning. This is the exact same between them.

And then couple that with Krillin straight up saying "wow, it's just like that time Goku Black came".

Unfortunate as it might be, the identical display that is compared directly to the identical display, is probably the identical display, especially when you couple that with the fact it is localized entirely at Capsule Corp, despite having 8x as long as he had to interact with the future timeline going by your arguments, hadn't yet moved past there at all, and we know he didn't because Zeno didn't need to nuke the past at all.

it was Zamasu's existence in which it breach through the fabric of time.

No it wasn't, they do not say that, in fact, again, they explicitly compare it and say it was just like when Goku Black came in episode 50.
This is something no media in the world would make a direct callback to if you aren't supposed to take explicit note of it given that's a gap of 17 episodes.
Note they don't say he's invading like Goku Black did, no, they say that thing they're looking at is just like when Goku Black emerged.

This makes sense, both rifts in time have similar visuals, effects, are localized entirely in the place we're told a time warp is, and so forth.

Possibly low 1-C is only defensible, conservative upgrade as it does not present an outright integration but rather a potential aspect of the argument.

No. the conservative route is to actually remove any facet of hypertimeline memes because it's technically all unproven and conjecture.

It's not defensible, you either prove it flat out or you don't get it.

You don't get a "potential" aspect, there's a slew of alternatives here, it isn't 50/50, it's like 1/10, but layered because you need about 3-5 variables to be true for low 1-C to work, all of which have alternatives, and if even one is off it falls apart.

any denial, must contradict Whis and Beerus's explicit axioms.

I mean that's super easy given Whis doesn't say what you say he does and given that egregious mishap, I would like to ask you to not post again here without running it past a mod first for confirmation because goddamn chat what is this...
I can't be spending my time arguing things that aren't even interpretation, but straight up not even real.

The OP doesn’t claim certainty — it proposes possibly Low 1-C. VS Battles’ “possibly” tag exists to account exactly for interrupted or possible feats which are uncertain.

Yes, if they're highly likely, this is not what this is tho.
And that's especially not the case for tier 1 btw. That's for like an 8-C or 5-A or something, tier 1 explicitly requires extraordinary proof. You're acting like we give possibly out for absence of evidence, lack of proof and "well you cant prove 100% it isn't true so it's a possibly...". My man we do not do that...
Why does this have to be said so many times? it isn't even me saying it, I'm pretty sure staff already said as much here too.

The meaningful data are the effects Whis/Beerus sensing timeline corruption and Zeno’s erasure, not whether the camera lingered for a "full fusion".

If that's your argument then we have a huge issue because Whis doesn't say anything at all. And Beerus' claim is simply based on the fact he can sense him, he doesn't know why, or how, or what's going on mind you, that part isn't up for debate, we've dealt with that a dozen times now, and it's again, why, he goes to earth because he doesn't know.
If the crux of your argument is a line that literally doesn't exist and is misinformation, and a character who's line doesn't even say what you claim is saying and is simultaneously also said from a place of ignorance and lack of context, which, fortunately, we the viewer do have here, and that context is time warp opened up at capsule corp, and because of that time warp, Whis and Beerus can now sense Zamasu's ki in the past for some reason, is an extremely weak piece of evidence for what you're trying to suggest.

Zeno is not an omniscient entity, His failure to preempt is not the absent of IZ's spread, as it shows that Zeno is not wholly omniscient etc.

You're right, which means

1. Zeno who lacks good ki sensing wouldn't have known how far IZ spread, so saying he went nuclear because he spread is an impossible claim as Zeno isn't capable of making a judgement off that.
2. Zeno's sensing sucks so bad Goku had to point out IZ to him as he was standing there.
3. The fact Zeno needed to be alerted to IZ by Goku in real time as he was standing there, means Zeno wasn't aware of IZ prior, doubly so because he uh, doesn't know who tf that is.
4. The fact Zeno even asks Goku if he's the person who destroyed everything, means he wasn't aware of IZ or that Goku was fighting to save people, this shuts down the "theyre virtuos so zeno wouldn-t have-" argument.
5. IZ literally embodies everything we know Zeno would go nuclear for.
And a handful more but we've gone over them enough.

All this combined shows that, Zeno going nuclear means absolutely nothing in regards to how far IZ spread, it actually acts as a anti-feat given hs lack of knowledge of him or the ongoings.

Does not negate the notion of such argument, as Cryo pointed out IZ did toy with these people, and as presented before, IZ is a mindless entity which he as not unleash the force of ki" as it has missing component before.

Oxymoron? He's mindless yet toying with people?

Also nope, they don't say that, they don't even show that. He straight up life wiped everything on the planet, how is that toying with people?
How is doing a single burst of attacks, and then never once attacking them again toying with them?
He isn't toying with them, he's not doing ANYTHING. He isn't doing pot shots to make them suffer, he isn't gloating or flexing his unkillable status. He's legit just doing nothing, laughing, screeching, and that is it. Even when Zeno is summoned, someone Zamasu knows is a thing and would know could murk him he uh... Doesn't do anything there either? Like he doesn't even register them. This doesn't get into how we know how Zamasu toys with people and it is not this. This isn't even remotely the same, I'm not sure what IZ is doing but it ain't toying.

So no, not only does it negate the argument but the argument wasn't based in fact from the start.
IZ never toyed with people, Cryo made the claim but as with most claims in this thread it's never stated, shown, and has no real backing to it while the scene and context around it actively contradiction such a notion.

Zamasu's explicit ideology is to become the God of existence, and impose his own twisted ideals and order upon reality. This is a Literalized notion of such ambition, his existence becoming self is the ultimate manifestation of his goal, which he wanted to eradicate mortals from all existence, as he asserted that multiple times in the anime, are we sure he will just become one merely with the universe 7 when his goal is to become the ultimate authority who annihilates all mortals?

This argument is getting tiresome.
It doesn't matter what he wants, I'm sure he does want that, but wanting it and having DONE IT are not the same thing. And the worst part about all of this? Nobody is saying he wasn't doing it the problem is you have to prove he finished doing it which you already admitted he might not have and there's no proof he did finish in your first line here.
And you haven't, and in factt multiple cases of evidence suggest very blatantly he didn't yet complete his goal before Zeno popped him, and in fact we know 100% he didn't complete his full goal because he never did end up fusing with the past before getting popped so this whole "well he WANTED to fuse with all of existence" not only doesn't hold up, it's hard confirmed not to have happened.

There's not even presented statements that oh "it's only a local rift that affects a mundane structure within the universe 7" as such no line exist.

Man, it actually does exist, it's just not from this episode, it's from like episode 50 or 51 iirc. They explain that the time machine passing back and forth creates these things called time warps. Goku Black was able to exploit this pre existing phenomena to travel to the past. they mention it again a bit later too iirc.
Between there and when IZ comes back, they use the time machine so many times, that based on the concrete info we are given, it would have only exacerbated.
We know IZ uses a time warp because not only is it only at capsule corp, and only where they kept using the time machine, and even due to how IZ never did merge with the past at all, but they straight up say what IZ is doing, is just like what Goku Black did. Which saying it again, it's the same, and I don't mean that hyperbolically, I'm pretty sure they even reused the animation model.

But that's your argument? That no such line exists?

Where's the line saying IZ used power to breach between worlds? Where's the line that says he fused with the whole future hyper timeline? Where's the line saying merging would make him stronger to begin with? Where's the lines for ANY of your claims because the Whis one isn't even real and the Beerus one is taken out of context, repurposed, and then framed as something it's not.

There's no such direct canonical statement that contradits Whis and Beerus statement pertaining to IZ itself, as you must be provide the indicator otherwise, it is a burden of proof.

Again, easy, Whis doesn't say what you claim he said so stop spreading misinformation.
Beerus is the most barebones vague statement known to man and in and of itself could easily just be interpreted as "damn something is happening here in the past", which it is, not "oh damn he's altering the fabric of space and hyper time to out past timeline", that requires extra assumptions, assumptions we know can't be true, because the only thing IZ was doing, was fusing with the world, yet we know, for a fact, not up for debate, he didn't fuse with the past in any way whatsoever.

And no, this isn't how CRT's work.
DBZ isn't special, it doesn't get special perms, any other CRT must prove the claim itself. People don't need to prove the conjecture or falsehoods wrong, it's YOU who needs to prove them correct, you haven't, even though everyone has been told by staff to give actual concrete proof of the claims you are now making again, yet have failed to do so yourself.

The burden is on you, it's going to stay with you, and until you post a hard statement saying otherwise, that will never change.

Even if a preexisting rift, that does not explain why his passive energy is affecting the present hypertimeline and eventually breached in the future hypertimeline.

Not if, is.
Passive energy? Based on what? They don't say that, that doesn't even make sense. Ignoring again how your claims of effecting a hypertimeline is conjecture and out of context framing of things never actually stated, again, where are you getting that what he's sensing is some sort of energy affecting the hypertimeline as opposed to... Just a normal ki signature that he can feel because as above and as below?

Whis explicitly stating it's leaking in the present.

He doesn't even say that, he says he can just feel it, which of course he can, there's a time warp on earth connecting the worlds. Why wouldn't he feel it? You're trying to frame it as something it isn't, something that's more, something beyond what we actually know. Again and again, we do not do that here.

You need various statements of canonical anti feats that outweighs the presented evidence, as it does not show incoherent direct refutation.

Oh that one is easy.
Didn't encompass Zeno's palace so he didn't effect the whole hypertimeline.
As he is, by your own argument, having fused with the hypertimeline, Goku and friends can deflect, block, and tank his attacks, showing that not only did he not get stronger, he's actually performing worse, which takes precedence over any claim that he would have got stronger by merging because it's an actual feat and showing of his only method of attack and the only reason people even assume his AP would grow isn't due to ANYTHING stated in the actual scene or manga, but simply meta preconceived notions that "big scale fuse must equal big power", when the actual medium never even implies that once.
Then we got Goku saying if he was at full power he might be able to do something, but that makes no sense? Goku at full power wouldn't have been able to do a damn thing to MZ for example and he knows that (hence Vegito), so that means Goku either can't sense his energy properly so there goes all future scaling based off energy vibes, or IZ's energy output didn't change by any meaningful degree.

And when all you have is a maybe, pretty sure there's direct, canon, refutations to your very claims take precedence.

If you deny this, you must show a true statements that must contradict the show's knowledgeable authorities,

I'm denying it, calling you out for spreading misinfo, continuing to try to shift the burden of proof when that isn't how this wiki works, and I did.
Like, 5 times.

I did show true statements, like what Whis actually says for example, not what you incorrectly claimed he said. Or how they say IZ's emergence is just like that of Goku Black's time warp, as he uses a time warp...
Or even how Zeno is a baby who will destroy all of reality of trivial nothings.
The Goku box line and them contending with IZ is also very relevant.
And more.

This is all solid fact, this isn't up for debate, and it all draws heavy scrutiny to your claims, if not outright contradicts them, and yet you think the burden is on me here?

not just demand for an endpoint show intentionally,

Yes actually I will demand that, especially now that your arguments have boiled down to shifting the burden of proof.
You post a hard explicit line of every single thing you claimed here, that's what I want to see, that's what should have been posted from the start,not 10 pages of this back and forth, but actual proof, not conjecture, not extrapolation, and most certainly not you've begun doing.
You want the change to go through? You post the hard explicit evidence, it's not anybody's job but your own if that's what you want. People don't even need to argue your lack of evidence somehow being evidence, the very fact you lack those confirmations and details is grounds for rejection in and of itself.

interpreting it as "rhetorical notion" ignores the presentation of Zamasu's ontological state in the series,

The presentation? We only ever see him expand into future U7, as it stands, even an "eventual" is extremely generous. In fact, throwing it out there, don't even agree with that now based on the explicit proof he didn't fuse with the past timeline whatsoever, based on the fact that he didn't, like there's not much to elaborate there, we know he didn't because Zeno didn't need to touch the past to nke him dead.
Ad we know he didn't even encompass the whole future timeline because it evidently didn't extend to Zeno's palace, which, is part of the future hypertimeline.

there's other stuff like him affecting the "space between hypertimelines" saying it's "portal" ignores the whole premise,

There again, more extrapolation. They never once state he's affecting the space between hypertimelines?
Can you stop, for just five seconds ong, adding your own spin to things?
The whole premise? What premise?
The only thing we know is IZ is fusing with the world and that's it.
Again if you want to actually take what's being stated and shown into account, he used a time warp because that's what they draw parallel too as he does it, and this shouldn't even be a point of contention because it looks basically the same, compared directly, and just so happens to be localized entirely in the spot where they went back and forth like 3 times.

And that's again ignoring how you don't need to be HDE, Low 1-C, or even fused with the whole timeline to actually access these things, and for hypothetical's sake, you don't need any of that to even do it on your own so it's a moot point either way.

Zamasu did not create a portal in the series, but his existence breaches through the timestream.

You're right, he didn't create a portal, a time wrap is described as an existing "wound" or "door' between the worlds created by Trunk's Time Machine going back and forth, so yes, he didn't make a portal, that's very much a bad thing.

But your claim is double wrong because

Goku Black actually learned how to make portals.

Actually hey all those arguments claiming "he never had an ability like that", well damn there ya go, he actually did have means and access to similar abilities, and it's very much a funny hax thing.

In the end, I won't be replying after this; my verdict is that lack of awareness does not negate the absence of his influence over the timestream,

Yes it does actually, we don't rate characters for things they have if they aren't capable of utilizing it, see TOTK Zelda for an explicit example (has a 2-C artifact that can delete entire dimensions back to a primordial chaos before time existed, but she uh, she don't know she got it and she don't really know how to use it so she just like 5-A and it acts as basically just a cool battery).
That's best case btw, that's assuming he actually fused with the whole thing (we know he didn't, this isn't even up for debate anymore due to Zeno), or had influence over it at all (he never actually DOES anything with it, nor is he stated to).

and presenting such evidence that proves IZ wil become become Low 1-C being otherwise, even if he started at 2-C.

You didn't present a single thing? You mentioned an out of context line, that I showed, like, 7 pages ago I think? Was in reference to something else entirely by posting the raw unedited clip, no cuts, nothing.
And then a line Whis never once actually says.

And this is ignoring how you failed to comment on things like Zeno's palace not being effected (direct proof he didn't merge with the whole hyper timeline), his actual AP showings, Zeno's whole characters and incapabilities in some things even, the fact you don't need any of what you claim to actually do the breach feat, and so much more.

Chat, we need proof, explicit undeniable proof yet the more this thread goes on, the more proof and evidence is brought up against it like the palace or actual AP showings, not for. Instead of being convinced I've went from "eh maybe possibly" to "eh pretty sure we know for a fact he didn't do any of what's claimed here".

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

So, when will the Vote tally be updated correctly, or should we just scrap it, and do a recount here?

 

[DragoZeroNova]

As an fyi, Dale & Mav explicitly, and I think Damage disagree with the OP. Qawsed I'm unsure but last he said he was leaning toward merely an eventual and nobody scales, and then Griffin.

That's a 3-1 staff vote (Viet being the 1) with 2 green names, potentially 5-1 if I'm not mistaken.
it would be 6-1 if bro stopped hiding.

Don't really want to get into this debate, but this vote tally is not right unless you consider Qawsed's scenario 1 as disagreeing with OP since as far as I can tell, Dale just straight up disagrees while Mav, Griffin and Damage say they agree with S1.

If agreeing with scenario 1 was what you meant, then sure.

From what I can tell, this is the current staff votes
S1: Qaw, Damage, Griffin, Mav
S2: Viet
Completely disagrees?: Dale
Has not given a vote: Leph
Was in agreement with Qaw before he created his scenarios for voting: DDM (agrees with S1?)
You can correct me if I'm wrong or missed anyone

 

[Chariot190]

Don't really want to get into this debate, but this vote tally is not right unless you consider Qawsed's scenario 1 as disagreeing with OP since as far as I can tell, Dale just straight up disagrees while Mav, Griffin and Damage say they agree with S1.

If agreeing with scenario 1 was what you meant, then sure.

From what I can tell, this is the current staff votes
S1: Qaw, Damage, Griffin, Mav
S2: Viet
Completely disagrees?: Dale
Has not given a vote: Leph
Was in agreement with Qaw before he created his scenarios for voting: DDM (agrees with S1?)
You can correct me if I'm wrong or missed anyone

I am considering Qaw's vote tally as disagreeing with OP based on the fact it disagrees with OP and suggests and entirely different outcome yes.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

One thing is for sure, only @Vietthai96 agrees with the current proposal, and the rest disagree's with it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Might as well put me alongside Damage and Mav and Griffin.

 

[Vietthai96]

@Qawsedf234 is ambiguous, he just laid out options for staff to choose, though considering 4 admins already voted for option 1, someone can applies the eventually Low 1-C rating.

I will update OP's vote tally when i come back to my home, edit and comment on phone is a pain

 

[Vietthai96]

OP was updated with new options laid out by Qaw and the newest vote tally

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

OP was updated with new options laid out by Qaw and the newest vote tally

You can add @Qawsedf234 to scenario 1.

CChario's comments about the merger and Zamasu's power level leads me to believe its the first case, otherwise it woild be case two imo.

His primary choice is scenario 1.

 

[DesuGoten]

I agree

 

[Qawsedf234]

@Qawsedf234 is ambiguous, he just laid out options for staff to choose, though considering 4 admins already voted for option 1, someone can applies the eventually Low 1-C rating.

My original vote was leaning toward scenario one, but I was fine with either. In the end, both have points going towards them, and I think either is fine to apply.

 

[Vietthai96]

My original vote was leaning toward scenario one, but I was fine with either. In the end, both have points going towards them, and I think either is fine to apply.

oke, tbh, this is hard to understand, you are both fine with option 1 and 2? since you laid out like 3 options with option 1 is eventually Low 1-C and two other options are up to Low 1-C, scaling is other matter though

 

[Qawsedf234]

oke, tbh, this is hard to understand, you are both fine with option 1 and 2?

Yeah. I think both have evidence backing them, and both are valid ends to choose.

since you laid out like 3 options with option 1 is eventually Low 1-C and two other options are up to Low 1-C, scaling is other matter though

Zamasu's power, in my mind, would look like this graph I made in MS paint

Option 1 basically means Zamasu was stopped early, but the potential is still there. Which is why no one scales to Low 1-C, just vaguely above how many Macrocosmos Zamasu absorbed.

Option 2 and 3 both have that Zamasu has completed his multiversal fusion, and people are upscaling from there. The only difference between those two is when the upscaling begins (Jiren or Broly, but more likely Jiren since Broly was an admitted cope thing with range as the sole basis).

 

[Vietthai96]

Yeah. I think both have evidence backing them, and both are valid ends to choose.

Zamasu's power, in my mind, would look like this graph I made in MS paint

Option 1 basically means Zamasu was stopped early, but the potential is still there. Which is why no one scales to Low 1-C, just vaguely above how many Macrocosmos Zamasu absorbed.

Option 2 and 3 both have that Zamasu has completed his multiversal fusion, and people are upscaling from there. The only difference between those two is when the upscaling begins (Jiren or Broly, but more likely Jiren since Broly was an admitted cope thing with range as the sole basis).

oke then, i have updated your vote in the OP, if anything wrong please say it

Though mostly the thread is done, 4 admins took the option 1

Edit: I just found out that both @Damage3245 and @LordGriffin1000 while leaning toward option 1, said they will reread the thread and give final vote, so the thread will be keep open for now

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

My original vote was leaning toward scenario one, but I was fine with either. In the end, both have points going towards them, and I think either is fine to apply.

About the infinite Zamasu, will he be a 5D being now?

 

[Qawsedf234]

About the infinite Zamasu, will he be a 5D being now?

Well, he should already have it for merging with a universe, but if he doesn't, it'll be something like "HDE: 4D, eventually 5D" or something.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Well, he should already have it for merging with a universe, but if he doesn't, it'll be something like "HDE: 4D, eventually 5D" or something.

Thank you for answering my questions

 

[DragoZeroNova]

I am considering Qaw's vote tally as disagreeing with OP based on the fact it disagrees with OP and suggests and entirely different outcome yes.

Got it, I was just confused since Dale was grouped in with everyone else even though it seems that he was suggesting something completely different (that being no low 1-C) while the others were accepting of what I'd consider the super low end of this OP (eventually low 1-C, no scaling).

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Sorry for the late response, I feel asleep mind replying yesterday night and had work all day. I know this topic is dragging on far to long so this will be my last response and hopefully it makes my thoughts clear, this will be a response to TiltedFN, who doesn't need to respond back since I know there tired of the back and forth and it's likely were gonna be going in circles so this is just me making myself clear as per there request. After this y'all figure it out unless I'm desperately needed for something because I can't consistently comment due to several factors as several of you already know.

I mean, it literally isn't his limit as shown, like him breaching the space between timelines, and starting to infect the main one. It's not really a matter of opinion here. He literally did go beyond just future universe 7.

Yes, by sending his essence to another timeline, but this doesn't mean he fused with the entire hypertimeline, it's not required that he fuses with the hypertimeline to do this, does a time machine or time ring embody the hypertimeline? No. He fused with the universe, that what it was accepted as, and then he could send his essence to another timeline, this doesn't immediately mean he fused with the hypertimeline, it's that simple. You don't half to become one with the entire hypertimeline to do what he did. I'm not saying he can't send his energy to another hypertimeline, I'm saying that not proof he fused with the entire hypertimeline.

I don't understand what you mean here.

"This is due to the fact that it's not stated or shown he reaches the "hypertimeline" in the fusion"

He did reach the present timeline, that's why he showed up in the first place. That literally doesn't happen if he can't actually leave the future timeline after establishing that connection.

Once again, I'm not saying he didn't send his essence to another timeline, I'm saying it's not shown that he fused with the hypertimeline he was in. Think of it like inter-dimensional range with his essence. He's the size of the universe 7 macrocosm and has the ability to send his essence to the other universe 7 macrocosm in another hypertimeline. The evidence presented doesn't solidly support him fusing with the hypertimeline, just that he has the ability to send part of his essence to another hypertimeline, which are to different things.

This doesn't work since something like the time ring is literally "constructed" for that very purpose, those are the functions of it. Zamasu doesn't have a time ring, he's not a time machine nor is he able to actually use one since he merged with space and time. All he has is his new state and power to do this. In order for the time ring to establish that connection to another 5th dimensional hypertimeline in the first place, it had to rip through the hypertimeline and into another one to do this. Time rings are physical representations/manifestations of the hypertimeline itself. They aren't made by anyone, they manifest when new parallel worlds (hypertimelines) are made.

Yeah, a Time Machine (an object the size of a car/truck) has the ability to travel from one hypertimeline to the next. The Time Ring (a ring) that is a manifestation/representation of a timeline can do the same thing following a Time Machine. Now Zamasu (an abstract) who was stated to have merged with the universe as you mentioned at the beginning of the OP, can do the same. However this once again doesn't mean he merged with the entire hypertimeline, this just means he can replicate a similar ability as a Time Machine and Time Ring. There is no rule stating that he had to become one with the hypertimeline to achieve this, it can literally be just an ability.

I mean this isn't really a transformation for Zamasu in the usual sense like Super Saiyan forms, Frieza's forms, etc. It's literally just Zamasu's essence starting to merge with time and space after his physical body was destroyed. He didn't have it then so why does he have it now? If we continue to go down this route, Zamasu absolutely has to fuse with the hypertimeline to do something like this. Infinite Zamasu and what he did was explained, the whole shenanigans with the portal is not. So why does he have the ability? Especially since a physical manifestation of the hypertimeline (time ring) was the only thing capable of establishing that connection. That means Zamasu has to be that representation/embodiment to even begin doing something like this and going further, and this is if you are comparing it to the time ring. Not the time machine since there is literally no precedence at all for them being similar. It's still something specifically designed for that task regardless. You say he doesn't have to be the hypertimeline to pass his essence, but why? I already explained why this would have to be the case in terms of establishing connection, so you need to give me a reason for your claim.

Not a transformation like Super Saiyan, but still a transformation in the broad sense. This doesn't stop him from gaining abilities, souls in Dragon Ball can't fuse with the universe space and time so just because he didn't have this ability when he had a body in no way means he can't gain the ability. And no, a Time Machine counts because it's proof that something or someone doesn't need to be fused with the hypertimeline to jump to another hypertimeline. So yes, I have given a reason, you don't half t accept it but don't say I need to give you one when you're explanation doesn't disprove mine. We all know characters gain new abilities with new forms, his being a unique type of transformation does allow him to be an exception, unless you have a statement saying he can't gain new abilities, my interpretation is valid.

Zamasu's entire ideology is about Gods and Mortals. Along with other things like Justice, the system, this and that. I mean what do you think started this whole thing?

Ok... So. My argument is that he most certainly would have gone for Zeno if he reached him. But the way Zeno acted, he never seen him. So you telling me his ideology doesn't change that given Zeno is a problem.

It really does matter, Zeno's palace is not much known about, it's a dimension inside of another dimension. And besides, I already mentioned that Zeno not knowing about this is actually just pointless to know about since he didn't know about ANYTHING that was happening in the future timeline at all. Why didn't the Grand Priest or Zeno do anything about Goku Blacks rampage? Did they not know that all their angels, destroyers, and kais were either killed or deactivated? It's not the question of why Zeno didn't know about it, it's the question of why Zeno didn't know about ANYTHING at all going on in the future. Trying to argue about it is pointless since Zeno erasing the world leads us to believe it is indeed infected by Zamasu already as I explained.

Oh it matters, us not knowing jack doesn't mean you get to ignore that his palace is in the hypertimeline. It has space and time by default unless proven otherwise like the World of the Void. So no, it matters, Zamasu would have been right at Zeno's doorstep and in his face. And no, in my opinion it's not pointless, sure Zeno and GP not giving a damn if he killed all mortals or the Gods or Destruction, even letting the angels get deactivated sure... But the moment Zamasu got to his dimension, he would have done something, because the moment he saw his ugly mug and scene what, he went full on nuclear. So the moment Zamasu is fuse with the hypertimeline as a hole, Zeno would have saw him invade his palace, get annoying from his screaming or him trying to blast him, he would have went nuclear. The fact that he didn't and seemingly acts like that's his first time seeing him after Goku tells on him is a big red flag in my opinion.

And lastly no, Zeno erasing the entire hypertimeline does no mean Zamasu infected the entire thing. It's established that little demon will nuke multiple universes simply because he gets annoyed so I wouldn't put it past him to do a full wipe of the timeline seeing what Zamasu did. Plus, you're arguing Zeno didn't care to pay attention and that he's in a pocket dimension, so if that's the case, how would Zeno know he'd need to nuke the entire hypertimeline? He doesn't even know what's going on, he doesn't know Zamasu is invading another timeline, he simply found what he saw disgusting and went full hard drive wipe on everyone. So yes, it matters in my honest opinion.

Again, I don't really understand what you're saying here. I mean it seems you acknowledge future Zeno doesn't watch over the universes (at least at the point these events transpired) so why doesn't the argument hold weight besides saying it just doesn't? You need to elaborate more here.

Read above. Even if he's not paying attention regarding what's going on in the 12 universes, Zamasu would have reached him if he indeed fused with the hypertimeline. That's why I believe the argument of dismissing Zeno as an issue doesn't hold up. It's an issue no matter how you spin it. Call it minor or irrelevant if you want, I don't agree.

Eventually and Up to Low 1-C are wildly different options here. So you need to make it clear on which one you're picking here.

They mean practically the same thing, though "eventually" is for characters in the process of reaching a Tier while "up to" is used for characters who have the potential to reach a Tier, I use the later for characters with a "Varies" rating but Zamasu gets the Low 1-C either way. To me it doesn't matter which one you use. If majority want "eventually" or "up to" is fine with me either way (I think "up to" Low 1-C is agreed upon in the updated OP so that one i guess)

I do think you missed some core parts of the arguments. So I'll wait for you to respond, at least to clarify which of the two "Eventually or Up to" you we're going for.

He probably did, that isn't a good thing though given we also have to tackle the fact IZ can't use the size anyway so can't get stats from that, has blatant contradictions to power growth, hypertimeline don't even got ki so that can't even be a factor into saying he got stronger, Goku and gang think maybe at full power they might be able to do something which coupled with his stagnant ki output shows he didn't change in output, everything from the out of context Beerus line, and more, like uh, why did he take less than 30 seconds to fuse with the future hyper timeline, create a rift via that "power" according to you, and then just like..... Not doing anything for at least a few minutes even after Zeno got summoned and his ass should have known he was cooked? Not to mention the entire premise is built on something they never even say anywhere ever (that he would get stronger doing this thing), like the very conclusion is just a assumption, one contradicted by his actual showings no less, we shouldn't even be humoring this anymore.

My apologies, I seen small segments of the full debate and only commented my thoughts on key points.

To be clear, in my first comment, I said and still believe he doesn't to fuse with the hypertimeline to do what he did so I leaned towards disagreement however, I think it's potentially possible (though not likely) he could/did given the interpretation and the fact that I no one wants to keep debating this topic, I'm fine with Zamasu only getting the "up to" or whatever Low 1-C rating. Regarding him using his size, I think we had a thread about this some time ago but yeah, I agree if he can't us his size to attack and is an non-physical being, I'm fine with his SS not scaling (AP only works if we think his blasts pact that power but given the anti-feats Chariot mentioned it's unlikely ), I'm fine with Durability scaling because your gonna need that power/range to even do anything to him.

I didn't talk about this stuff or the Beerus/Whis statements because I think Chariot went into it with enough detail and I just didn't think they'd help the argument more than visually seeing Zamasu there and his actual showings. Once again, that's my bad, I do apologize. Hopefully this response makes my thoughts clear so we can move on from this topic.

 

[TiltedFN]

My apologies, I seen small segments of the full debate and only commented my thoughts on key points.

To be clear, in my first comment, I said and still believe he doesn't to fuse with the hypertimeline to do what he did so I leaned towards disagreement however, I think it's potentially possible (though not likely) he could/did given the interpretation and the fact that I no one wants to keep debating this topic, I'm fine with Zamasu only getting the "up to" or whatever Low 1-C rating. Regarding him using his size, I think we had a thread about this some time ago but yeah, I agree if he can't us his size to attack and is an non-physical being, I'm fine with his SS not scaling (AP only works if we think his blasts pact that power but given the anti-feats Chariot mentioned it's unlikely ), I'm fine with Durability scaling because your gonna need that power/range to even do anything to him.

I didn't talk about this stuff or the Beerus/Whis statements because I think Chariot went into it with enough detail and I just didn't think they'd help the argument more than visually seeing Zamasu there and his actual showings. Once again, that's my bad, I do apologize. Hopefully this response makes my thoughts clear so we can move on from this topic.

"Up to Low 1-C" does align with Option 2 and 3 so I'll just place you in those. I don't think that thread you're talking about exist afaik, but using the size thing to attack isn't a requirement. @Qawsedf234 and @Vietthai96 pointed out that fusing with that structure does just scale you since that's how it's treated, and among other things. And there's UES.

 

[AmonInChains]

They mean practically the same thing, though "eventually" is for characters in the process of reaching a Tier while "up to" is used for characters who have the potential to reach a Tier, I use the later for characters with a "Varies" rating but Zamasu gets the Low 1-C either way. To me it doesn't matter which one you use. If majority want "eventually" or "up to" is fine with me either way (I think "up to" Low 1-C is agreed upon in the updated OP so that one i guess)

To be clear, in my first comment, I said and still believe he doesn't to fuse with the hypertimeline to do what he did so I leaned towards disagreement however, I think it's potentially possible (though not likely) he could/did given the interpretation and the fact that I no one wants to keep debating this topic, I'm fine with Zamasu only getting the "up to" or whatever Low 1-C rating.

Seems like a general agreement like Qaw.

 

[Chariot190]

"Up to Low 1-C" does align with Option 2 and 3 so I'll just place you in those.

What are you doing? Someone who very clearly doesn't even agree with it at all, and by their own admission agreeing with it solely based on a unlikely interpretation they themselves said isn't that likely just to get the thread over with, is not agreeing with option 2 or 3. They even say the option that's generally agreed upon, that ain't option 2/3 my dude, it's option 1, and that's in the same sentence as saying up to and eventually basically the same thing. Don't list people as a vote they aren't.

I don't think that thread you're talking about exist afaik, but using the size thing to attack isn't a requirement. @Qawsedf234 and @Vietthai96 pointed out that fusing with that structure does just scale you since that's how it's treated, and among other things. And there's UES.

My brother in christ there's a thread going on right now on basically this very topic, and a handful of the posts in there ain't exactly something that supports this thread unless you're basically tier 0.
And honestly? No offense to them but I would say it is a requirement, like why we rating things that don't got proof? Why we giving values for things that don't exist? If the character can't use it, can't do anything with it, their actual thing doesn't grow, isn't stated to get stronger, has actual evidence they didn't get stronger, and so much more...
Like we even indexing the character in question? We aren't, we're rating a hypothetical version based on things that don't even exist.
That isn't what we do, we're supposed to be indexing the actual character, not what you want that character to be.

UES don't matter when the reason he's that high has absolutely nothing to do with UES nor the fact we have zero confirmation the UES aspect of him grew, even if you were right, the actual UES aspect of the character is shown blatantly not effected in any meaningful degree which far surpasses and exceeds every single argument in this thread bar none. Actual feats and showings > Mere assumptions that were never said.

Honestly we shouldn't even be giving an eventual without proof he actually managed to do it or would have done it, we already know he didn't because of Zeno, but the wording used for it is present-ongoing tense like "trying to become" not "has become", it's very much an ongoing process and they never once say he finished or would have succeeded, we're just being extremely generous here and assuming he would succeed eventually.

 

[Treeztarz]

What are you doing? Someone who very clearly doesn't even agree with it at all, and by their own admission agreeing with it solely based on a unlikely interpretation they themselves said isn't that likely just to get the thread over with, is not agreeing with option 2 or 3. They even say the option that's generally agreed upon, that ain't option 2/3 my dude, it's option 1, and that's in the same sentence as saying up to and eventually basically the same thing. Don't list people as a vote they aren't.

"I'm fine with Zamasu only getting the "up to" or whatever Low 1-C rating." " I agree if he can't us his size to attack and is an non-physical being, I'm fine with his SS not scaling" "I'm fine with Durability scaling because your gonna need that power/range to even do anything to him" So im PRETTY sure he agrees

 

[Chariot190]

"I'm fine with Zamasu only getting the "up to" or whatever Low 1-C rating."

Bro somehow managed to gore the entire preceding paragraph and context?
"They mean practically the same thing, though "eventually" is for characters in the process of reaching a Tier while "up to" is used for characters who have the potential to reach a Tier, I use the later for characters with a "Varies" rating but Zamasu gets the Low 1-C either way. To me it doesn't matter which one you use. If majority want "eventually" or "up to" is fine with me either way (I think "up to" Low 1-C is agreed upon in the updated OP so that one i guess)"

Says this is semantics, after explaining why he disagrees with Op in detail, and is fine with majority.
Guess what isn't the majority?

" I agree if he can't us his size to attack and is an non-physical being, I'm fine with his SS not scaling"

Yep, he don't get SS. Double disagree even.
Also good job ignoring half the sentence again
"I think we had a thread about this some time ago but yeah, I agree if he can't us his size to attack and is an non-physical being, I'm fine with his SS not scaling (AP only works if we think his blasts pact that power but given the anti-feats Chariot mentioned it's unlikely),"

Says that based on actual showings even AP as a whole is unlikely, and he blatantly disagrees with the powertal time warp being any indicator of power so that isn't on the table, so where, exactly, are you getting him agreeing with AP scaling from?

"I'm fine with Durability scaling because your gonna need that power/range to even do anything to him" So im PRETTY sure he agrees

Completely irrelevant on the aspect of AP.
Which, we've argued for, dozens of times by this point.

Why'd bro ignore the wall of text where he disagrees with basically everything? Like he says himself he doesn't even agree, he's just going majority to get this shit done with?

Like are we really at the point we're not just cherry picking the source material, but STAFF VOTES to fit what people want? Jesus christ people...

 

[DragoZeroNova]

This seems like the mythical option 4

Real talk, this seems like option 1 but with up to instead of eventually (same scaling?) and/or Griffin misread the options or something

 

[Treeztarz]

Bro somehow managed to gore the entire preceding paragraph and context?
"They mean practically the same thing, though "eventually" is for characters in the process of reaching a Tier while "up to" is used for characters who have the potential to reach a Tier, I use the later for characters with a "Varies" rating but Zamasu gets the Low 1-C either way. To me it doesn't matter which one you use. If majority want "eventually" or "up to" is fine with me either way (I think "up to" Low 1-C is agreed upon in the updated OP so that one i guess)"

Says this is semantics, after explaining why he disagrees with Op in detail, and is fine with majority.
Guess what isn't the majority?

Yep, he don't get SS. Double disagree even.
Also good job ignoring half the sentence again
"I think we had a thread about this some time ago but yeah, I agree if he can't us his size to attack and is an non-physical being, I'm fine with his SS not scaling (AP only works if we think his blasts pact that power but given the anti-feats Chariot mentioned it's unlikely),"

Says that based on actual showings even AP as a whole is unlikely, and he blatantly disagrees with the powertal time warp being any indicator of power so that isn't on the table, so where, exactly, are you getting him agreeing with AP scaling from?

Completely irrelevant on the aspect of AP.
Which, we've argued for, dozens of times by this point.

Why'd bro ignore the wall of text where he disagrees with basically everything? Like he says himself he doesn't even agree, he's just going majority to get this shit done with?

Like are we really at the point we're not just cherry picking the source material, but STAFF VOTES to fit what people want? Jesus christ people...

"He doesn't agree, he just agrees"

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I'm going with Option/Scenario 1(2-C, eventually/up to Low 1-C for Infinite Zamasu), I'd rather this not get dragged on, that's why I made my thoughts short.

"Up to Low 1-C" does align with Option 2 and 3 so I'll just place you in those. I don't think that thread you're talking about exist afaik, but using the size thing to attack isn't a requirement. @Qawsedf234 and @Vietthai96 pointed out that fusing with that structure does just scale you since that's how it's treated, and among other things. And there's UES.

?????

 

[Chariot190]

"He doesn't agree, he just agrees"

Are we losing the plot?
Doesn't agree with AP scaling.
Doesn't agree with SS scaling.
Doesn't agree the time warp being used as evidence of anything.
Doesn't agree he even fused with the whole hypertimeline.
Doesn't agree with the Beerus evidence.
Doesn't agree with UES.
Doesn't agree with any Zeno-based argument.
Doesn't agree with any of the counterpoints.
Doesn't agree he should get anything at all.
But for the sake of ending the thread, will agree with majority whatever that might be, which, he explicitly says, is option 1, not 2, not 3.

And you're taking it as he agrees with the things he voiced blatant disagreement with, says it's semantics, and is actually agreeing with the minority that is option 2.3 that will drag the thread on even further?

Bro, we real?

 

[Robo432343]

The real vote count

Agree: Qawsedf234 (He is fine with scenario 1 and 2)

• Scenario 1: DarkDragonMedeus Damage3245 (Leaning toward option 1) Maverick_Zero_X LordGriffin1000
• Scenario 2: Vietthai96
• Scenario 3:

Neutral:

Disagree: Dalesean027

 

[Treeztarz]

Are we losing the plot?
Doesn't agree with AP scaling.
Doesn't agree with SS scaling.
Doesn't agree the time warp being used as evidence of anything.
Doesn't agree he even fused with the whole hypertimeline.
Doesn't agree with the Beerus evidence.
Doesn't agree with UES.
Doesn't agree with any Zeno-based argument.
Doesn't agree with any of the counterpoints.
Doesn't agree he should get anything at all.
But for the sake of ending the thread, will agree with majority whatever that might be, which, he explicitly says, is option 1, not 2, not 3.

And you're taking it as he agrees with the things he voiced blatant disagreement with, says it's semantics, and is actually agreeing with the minority that is option 2.3 that will drag the thread on even further?

Bro, we real?

you stated YOURSELF that he agreed with something, I don't CARE if he doesn't think its right because he said, and i quote "I'm going with Option/Scenario 1" and later reaffirmed his stance as one of agreement. I repeat, YOU YOURSELF stated he was fine with the majority.

 

[Chariot190]

you stated YOURSELF that he agreed with something, I don't CARE if he doesn't think its right because he said, and i quote "I'm going with Option/Scenario 1" and later reaffirmed his stance as one of agreement. I repeat, YOU YOURSELF stated he was fine with the majority.

Man did you lose the conversation somewhere?
The topic of debate is what he agreed with, not whether he agreed with anything at all.
He is, currently, incorrectly placed and has his vote tied to something he didn't agree with. That is the topic of discussion. It needs to be corrected.

Why are you derailing and clogging the thread up even further based solely on not following the context of the conversation at hand? We don't need that, stop that shit dude.

 

[StarShooter80]

We're debating staff votes now lmao