Breaking Bond (Mario and Luigi Brothership 2-B (at least 2-C) CRT)

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Could you go into a little more detail with your disagreement, please?

yknow damn well you arent getting an answer lol. Gotta hold that tbh.

 

[AppleMaker]

I agree with that

 

[JJSliderman]

2-C to 2-B with amps sounds good to me as long as Dreamy Bowser is still being maintained as legit scaling.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Y'know... you could've just said you disagree and left with that.

That's... what I did.

 

[Mephistus]

Read over the whole thread, I think armor makes better points here.

I do think dreamy bowser scaling to the bros via bonds would be easier methodology.

2-C to 2-B with amps sounds good to me as long as Dreamy Bowser is still being maintained as legit scaling.

Path of least resistance yeah.

 

[AlloyAmi]

Read over the whole thread, I think armor makes better points here.

I do think dreamy bowser scaling to the bros via bonds would be easier methodology.

the "bonds amp" in brothership is different then their standard working together strength that is still their standard base scaling.

In brothership, it is recieved from getting showered by the bonding can that contains the power of the collective combined bonds of a multitude of several major characters seen throughout the game as shown here, here, here, here, here, here, and lastly here. while mario and luigi are noted to have the strongest of bonds, this is very clearly not their standard duo bonds alone in this case as reclusa lost to everyones bonds.

While mario and luigi CAN do a lot more together in terms of teamwork, its never treated as an amp like in this specific case in brothership when they get showered by everyones bonds. Them fighting and defeating Dreamy Bowser is a feat performed in base (with them both needing the individual power to harm him enough as dreamy bowser can just grab one and the other bro has to free them alone) and claiming they are amped for that fight in specific is entirely headcanon for the sake of including a feat thats higher end. Regarding how to index it, it's either you scale them to it in base because dream team does legitimately suggest a massive powercreep towards the end for their base scaling, or the feat is dismissed as outlier due to the rest of the series.

 

[Galactidot]

This is true, but Reclusa is taking control of these individual people, making dreams for them that HE controls, and makes a hivemind he can freely travel between. These are HIS worlds.
I don't think I mentioned this earlier, but yes, they do contain stars.
Nobody but Mario and Luigi could stop him by using the power of bonds. Yes, Mario and Luigi need an amp to kill this guy.

Only Reclusa can do this, no? (This still applies!)

I do feel I should answer this

I believe I've answered this before, but listen to this:

Remember when you questioned the part where Reclusa says he "prepared" the dreams?
That very question you asked is your answer. Upon further inspection...
He made them alright, but they didn't exactly exist until the Soli-Tree was created. They don't belong to his victims. They are made for them, but belong to him.
Here we can see budding dream flowers inside the Soli-Tree, and roots throughout the area sending the flowers to their victims. These dreams are contained within the flowers.

Now as for you, can you prove this is simply mind manipulation? I have provided my evidence for the contrary.

@Maverick_Zero_X ? @Mr. Bambu ? @Armorchompy ?
With all due respect, no attempt has been made by any of you to counter anything I stated here. I can't help but find your votes somewhat disingenuous in this circumstance. We can't just go disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, can we?
Even as a humble user of this site, I at least implore you to try and not gloss over my argument, and not strawman your way out of this...
Not a single one of you responded to this.

 

[Galactidot]

I think the "embodiment of isolation" thing and erasure statement are figures of speech so I disagree with Abstract Existence and Existence Erasure (and literally nothing supports Conceptual Manipulation).

The erasure statement is one thing (and I pointed out how it's a possibly from the get-go), but what brings you to believe the Japanese statement is figurative?

 

[JPTheGamer]

That's... what I did.

The first part wasn't necessary, dude; you could've left that out.

@Maverick_Zero_X ? @Mr. Bambu ? @Armorchompy ?
With all due respect, no attempt has been made by any of you to counter anything I stated here. I can't help but find your votes somewhat disingenuous in this circumstance. We can't just go disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, can we?
Even as a humble user of this site, I at least implore you to try and not gloss over my argument, and not strawman your way out of this...
Not a single one of you responded to this.

we literally both said we disagree with it

I think the "embodiment of isolation" thing and erasure statement are figures of speech so I disagree with Abstract Existence and Existence Erasure (and literally nothing supports Conceptual Manipulation).

I agree with @Armorchompy on Reclusa's dream worlds being created and modified indirectly by putting people to sleep and that Reclusa's abilities wouldn't really scale to his AP.

Anyway, despite the fact that 2-C or 2-B AP is probably not gonna happen based upon the equal amount of votes, surely there's something else we can get out of this thread; my suggestions would be to give Reclusa Low Multiversal to Multiversal range, layered Dream/Sleep Manipulation, and a "likely higher" rating for his base as well as for the Mario Bros' base, but I think we should wait for the most knowledgeable members like @LuckyEmile, @Starsprite53, @ShakeResounding, and DDM to respond again before we agree on such changes and decide to end it here.

 

[Galactidot]

The first part wasn't necessary, dude; you could've left that out.



Anyway, despite the fact that 2-C or 2-B AP is probably not gonna happen based upon the equal amount of votes, surely there's something else we can get out of this thread; my suggestions would be to give Reclusa Low Multiversal to Multiversal range, layered Dream/Sleep Manipulation, and a "likely higher" rating for his base as well as for the Mario Bros' base, but I think we should wait for the most knowledgeable members like @LuckyEmile, @Starsprite53, @ShakeResounding, and DDM to respond again before we agree on such changes and decide to end it here.

Omni, they still didn't answer my questions. There were multiple points I could've theoretically ended the discussion, butI continued it in order to make sure everyone has made real arguments. I expect the same, and as such, I'm not ending it just yet.

I still expect actual reasoning from Bambu and Maverick, and that would start with them (and Armor) facing my statement head-on.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Omni, they still didn't answer my questions. There were multiple points I could've theoretically ended the discussion, butI continued it in order to make sure everyone has made real arguments. I expect the same, and as such, I'm not ending it just yet.

I don't think we should close this thread, either, but I'm saying if Tier 2 AP can't happen here, then maybe there's something else we could give the cast such as my recommendations.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The first part wasn't necessary, dude; you could've left that out.

I don't know what you want from me? I typed a haha and you seem upset?

 

[Galactidot]

I don't know what you want from me? I typed a haha and you seem upset?

I don't care either way, personally. Can we please not focus on such small things and instead talk about the discussion at hand, please?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I don't care either way, personally. Can we please not focus on such small things and instead talk about the discussion at hand, please?

Ideally.

 

[Galactidot]

Ideally.

Can you please look at this? Reclusa creates the dreams

 

[Galactidot]

I think the "embodiment of isolation" thing and erasure statement are figures of speech so I disagree with Abstract Existence and Existence Erasure (and literally nothing supports Conceptual Manipulation).

I agree with @Armorchompy on Reclusa's dream worlds being created and modified indirectly by putting people to sleep and that Reclusa's abilities wouldn't really scale to his AP.

Maverick, you are aware I already countered Armor's point, no? I find you and Bambu ignoring this quite disingenuous.
And I have done the same for most of the points made by Armor, if you both would take a minute to scroll across the thread. If there's anything I didn't provide an adequate answer to, reply to it here. But as things currently stand, I believe to have left no stone unturned that didn't have the topic changed or countered by "I don't think so". As for the embodiment of isolation aspect, the Japanese text tilts between saying he's an embodiment and saying he's made of it. Not a single translation interpretation leans towards figure of speech.

Please answer a few questions:

Why do you agree with Armor?
Why are his points sound?
And why do you disagree with mine?

 

[JPTheGamer]

Bump?

 

[AStrangeverse]

damn, they mighty slow as hell for response time

 

[Armorchompy]

After three months of going around in circles not every attempt at dragging out the conversation warrants a response. Charitably, it's just wasting time, less charitably it's stonewalling.

By the way, on the topic of slow response time, the vote tally still hasn't been updated.

 

[Galactidot]

After three months of going around in circles not every attempt at dragging out the conversation warrants a response. Charitably, it's just wasting time, less charitably it's stonewalling.

By the way, on the topic of slow response time, the vote tally still hasn't been updated.

Not dragging out the conversation, but making sure yall actually do the "evaluate" part of your job.

You can't come in and not get into the "nitty gritty" --- then nobody can respond to your points... or maybe you're afraid you lost the argument and don't even have any points. Show me which is the case. It's what you were ordained to do. The only one stonewalling is you.

I haven't updated the tally because the rules state you need to actually give INPUT as staff members. Maverick just agreed with your response (which isn't even up-to-date, and Bambu said zilch.

In other words, you didnt actually vote yet.
That was intentional. And know that other staff members share my view on this.

Either way, don't attempt this spin on the situation.

 

[Imaginym]

Wow. This CRT has 7 pages, & this would be the 261st post.

Is there a summary of the points of contention available at this time?

 

[Galactidot]

Wow. This CRT has 7 pages, & this would be the 261st post.

Is there a summary of the points of contention available at this time?

Thanks for asking! The point of contention is that Reclusa only controls the dreams with mind manipulation, and dream creation is automatic whenever someone sleeps.

However, I've clarified this, but it's yet to be responded to....

 

[Imaginym]

Thanks for asking! The point of contention is that Reclusa only controls the dreams with mind manipulation, and dream creation is automatic whenever someone sleeps.

However, I've clarified this, but it's yet to be responded to....

That's the only point of contention? How did this end up at 260 posts?

 

[Galactidot]

That's the only point of contention? How did this end up at 260 posts?

Long story, in short, the topic kept changing

 

[Imaginym]

Long story, in short, the topic kept changing

What are the new topics that are brought up?
Are they something important/related to the opening post, or are they things that could be reserved for discussion in a new CRT?

 

[Galactidot]

What are the new topics that are brought up?
Are they something important/related to the opening post, or are they thinks that could be reserved for discussion in a new CRT?

Relating to Glohm UES, and....

That's about it, if you look at the thread, you'll see lots of back and forth for each point

 

[Armorchompy]

You can't come in and not get into the "nitty gritty" --- then nobody can respond to your points... or maybe you're afraid you lost the argument and don't even have any points.

Or maybe you've wasted enough of my time and I'm not beholden to responding to every new way you find to spin the same old argument. The meat of the discussion has concluded and you don't have the right to continue to prolong it.

Show me which is the case. It's what you were ordained to do. The only one stonewalling is you.

I have a duty to evaluate arguments and approve or reject threads. I have a duty to be fair in my judgement. I do not have a duty to respond to every inane attempt at tiring me out that you slide out in an attempt to get quick agreements from people who haven't read the full discussion and think your last post is a new, unaddressed argument.

I haven't updated the tally because the rules state you need to actually give INPUT as staff members. Maverick just agreed with your response (which isn't even up-to-date, and Bambu said zilch.

In other words, you didnt actually vote yet.
That was intentional.

You do not have the authority to decide what counts as "input" or not, and a vote certainly counts as one. I would note that most agreements your side has gotten were similarly simple posts, but either way if you are unwilling to update the vote tally I will simply edit it myself.

And know that other staff members share my view on this.

If they share your view or think that I am acting unfairly they are free to show up and say as much.

 

[Armorchompy]

What are the new topics that are brought up?
Are they something important/related to the opening post, or are they thinks that could be reserved for discussion in a new CRT?

The main concern is whether Reclusa's creation and manipulation of the dream realms is something that he scales to directly. Despite Galactidot's claims their last response is just yet another rehashing of arguments I've (i like to think) debunked in the past, and the discussion is mostly cyclical. Frankly the only way to evaluate this thread properly is to read through much of the relevant discussion, there isn't an easy way to sum it up that both sides would agree to.

 

[Imaginym]

The main concern is whether Reclusa's creation and manipulation of the dream realms is something that he scales to directly. Despite Galactidot's claims their last response is just yet another rehashing of arguments I've (i think) debunked in the past, and the discussion is mostly cyclical. Frankly the only way to evaluate this thread properly is to read through much of the relevant discussion, there isn't an easy way to sum it up that both sides would agree to.

Fair enough. Thank you both very much. I'll have to find time to read through this.

 

[Galactidot]

You do not have the authority to decide what counts as "input" or not, and a vote certainly counts as one. I would note that most agreements your side has gotten were similarly simple posts, but either way if you are unwilling to update the vote tally I will simply edit it myself.

I will update it, but note that all staff members on my side have asked questions and engaged in the conversation, as did you.

You have, I'm not saying you didnt.

I am saying Maverick and Bambu didn't. Are you suggesting they did? "The nitty gritty" is frankly necessary for this discussion.

Nonetheless, to prevent further friction, I will update the votes, but I still expect them to explain their stances as you and the rest of us did.

 

[JPTheGamer]

The main concern is whether Reclusa's creation and manipulation of the dream realms is something that he scales to directly. Despite Galactidot's claims their last response is just yet another rehashing of arguments I've (i like to think) debunked in the past, and the discussion is mostly cyclical. Frankly the only way to evaluate this thread properly is to read through much of the relevant discussion, there isn't an easy way to sum it up that both sides would agree to.

Fair enough. Thank you both very much. I'll have to find time to read through this.

What if we gave Reclusa powers and abilities on a multiversal scale? Like this...

• Creation and Dream Manipulation (Multiversal)

We could also give him something like "higher with Dream Manipulation" for his AP. That shouldn't be a problem, right?

 

[Galactidot]

What if we gave Reclusa powers and abilities on a multiversal scale? Like this...

• Creation and Dream Manipulation (Multiversal)

We could also give him something like "higher with Dream Manipulation" for his AP. That shouldn't be a problem, right?

That feels like a bare minimum, but since the dreams are specifically FROM the Soli-Tree (and not the victims), he should scale directly to them.

 

[Galactidot]

The main concern is whether Reclusa's creation and manipulation of the dream realms is something that he scales to directly. Despite Galactidot's claims their last response is just yet another rehashing of arguments I've (i like to think) debunked in the past, and the discussion is mostly cyclical. Frankly the only way to evaluate this thread properly is to read through much of the relevant discussion, there isn't an easy way to sum it up that both sides would agree on.

I looked through your replies, and I don't see you ever saying anything against the dreams coming from the flowers and not the victims. Can you please evaluate this, I'm sincerely not trying to tire you out or anything, I just need to be on the same page for a minute...

 

[Armorchompy]

I looked through your replies, and I don't see you ever saying anything against the dreams coming from the flowers and not the victims. Can you please evaluate this, I'm sincerely not trying to tire you out or anything, I just need to be on the same page for a minute...

Link seems to be broken.

 

[AlloyAmi]

Link seems to be broken.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/break...b-at-least-2-c-crt.180383/page-6#post-7243462

 

[Galactidot]

Try this one:

Breaking Bond (Mario and Luigi Brothership 2-B (at least 2-C) CRT)

"Definitely"? Listen, I get Armorchompy liked your comment and all that but... I don't really know what you think you're doing (I don't care to have an opinion on this topic, if I did I would've said so myself), but I think you should stop. This time, can you guys just. Listen? I'm not sure...

vsbattles.com

it should link to both Ami and my post, which both basically state the same thing.

 

[Armorchompy]

Remember when you questioned the part where Reclusa says he "prepared" the dreams?

This is again just misinterpreting the wording. I've never denied that Reclusa shapes and influences the dreams to his desire, that's a pretty clear fact in the story. But I don't think this implies he's shaped the dreams from nothing.

He made them alright, but they didn't exactly exist until the Soli-Tree was created. They don't belong to his victims. They are made for them, but belong to him.
Here we can see budding dream flowers inside the Soli-Tree, and roots throughout the area sending the flowers to their victims. These dreams are contained within the flowers.

I'm not sure I understand, obviously the flowers have to exist before they can be stuck on someone's head and start doing the deed, that's just logic. What's the evidence they contain the dreams already?

 

[Galactidot]

This is again just misinterpreting the wording. I've never denied that Reclusa shapes and influences the dreams to his desire, that's a pretty clear fact in the story. But I don't think this implies he's shaped the dreams from nothing.

I find it interesting that he leans even further into the "prepared" wording in Japanese, and I believe the glitching in Reclusa's dream worlds is substantial evidence to suggest these are not normal dream worlds. Not to mention the lack of sentient life in these worlds --- dream worlds usually have sentient lifeforms created, these ones don't.

I'm not sure I understand, obviously the flowers have to exist before they can be stuck on someone's head and start doing the deed, that's just logic. What's the evidence they contain the dreams already?

Only explanation behind preparation, they are already pulsating, and Mario, Snoutlet, and Luigi enter the same dream world --- Mario's flower is also running off of Luigi's world, evident by the lack of eyes on his.
These are not normal dream worlds.

 

[Seol404]

He could potentially have existence erasure.
Here, he claims to be planning to erase Mario and Luigi's existence. I too doubted this at first, but he's very consistent with this wording across all languages.

Ehhhh, I really don't think this any more than him stating his intent to kill them. Consistent wording across translations is just proof that the translations are accurate to the original literal text. I think a statement like this isn't enough evidence for EE on it's face.

As stated here, Reclusa is the embodiment of isolation.
He could potentially have conceptual manipulation and abstract existence if this is accepted.

Embodying a concept is not enough to have abstract existence. iirc Reclusa is permanently killed independently of the abstract concept of isolation of loneliness, which would disqualify even Type 2.

Overall I otherwise agree with Armorchompy

 

[Armorchompy]

I believe the glitching in Reclusa's dream worlds is substantial evidence to suggest these are not normal dream worlds.

I dunno about that.

Not to mention the lack of sentient life in these worlds --- dream worlds usually have sentient lifeforms created, these ones don't.

Reclusa gets to shape them however he wants, the absence of something (even if is such a consistent trend, which honestly I wouldn't know) isn't suspicious.

Only explanation behind preparation, they are already pulsating, and Mario, Snoutlet, and Luigi enter the same dream world --- Mario's flower is also running off of Luigi's world, evident by the lack of eyes on his.

Why would them pulsating imply there's a dream universe connected to them? Also can I ask for a video link to this.