Breaking Bond (Mario and Luigi Brothership 2-B (at least 2-C) CRT)

[Galactidot]

im tired boss

Reclusa traps his victims in Dream Worlds that he can freely modify, destroy, and create. The Bros. can take coins and mushrooms out of these dreams, solidifying their status as dream worlds.
He does this using the Soli-tree, which is referred to as his "locus of loneliness". This is his "little toy" that he created with little to no effort, and would scale not only to all of his dream worlds, but to the very concept of Glohm he embodies, as all vanish upon his death.
He's done this to at least hundreds of worlds, which are at minimum in this context Kingdoms (directly stated), at at maximum universes (based on most frequent meaning of "world" in Mario cosmology)

We now know that the two largest kingdoms, being the Mushroom Kingdom and Bowser's Kingdom, are implied to have around 98 million civilians each, and the Mushroom Kingdom is generally depicted as larger than Bowser's Kingdom.

This would put him at at least 2-C, as this lines up with the definitions of the tier. Realistically, he's a more expansive dream stone, surpassing the 100,000 benchmark the Dream Stone set. He's succeeded in exterminating all life in a given world many, many times. This would possibly put him at 2-B. At most, he could be 2-A if we're subscribing to the idea that he's destroyed the population of entire universes, which are infinite in the Mario cosmology. However, this is a HUGE reach, so we're gonna be striving for 2-B here at most.

He could also have some highly sought-after hax.

As stated here, Reclusa is the embodiment of isolation.
He could potentially have conceptual manipulation and abstract existence if this is accepted.

He could potentially have existence erasure.
Here, he claims to be planning to erase Mario and Luigi's existence. I too doubted this at first, but he's very consistent with this wording across all languages.

Reclusa gave Zokket his powers through Glohm, the counterpart to bonds. We see that Glohm can manipulate space (or at the very least perception), amplify power, and create impenetrable forcefields, similar to the one the Dream Stone created. This very Glohm is the power Reclusa uses to cause so much destruction...

...is countered by bonds, the very thing Mario and Luigi used to defeat Reclusa.

Think of bonds like a more broad "power of friendship". Bonds amp the Bros' power, and allow them to break through Reclusa's barrier. The Bros gain an aura when using bonds, and allow them to survive the Glohm Fog.

Furthermore, in the falling sequence in the final boss fight, you need to charge Bond power to inflict damage in the thousands on his ~52560 HP (1086+1740+2404+4066+6659+8892+9137+8601+9975). If you don't attack with bond power, you'll only do around 80 damage per hit.

Bonds and Glohm are opposing forces of equal strength, and can be considered forms of UES. So the Bond-empowered Bros. scale to Reclusa.

Summary:

Reclusa gets 2-B, or at least 2-C

At least Low Multiverse Level (Caused the destruction of several worlds prior to reaching Concordia, with Shun explaining that he'll do this "again and again" had Mario & Luigi not interfere, with worlds in Mario generally being other universes or dimensions.), Likely Multiverse Level (Casually swats away Bowser as Weeping Reclusa, required the power of bonds for Mario and Luigi to defeat. Can ignore durability with powers. + Same reasons as above, accounting for scope of Reclusa's powers.)

Optional: Reclusa gets conceptual manipulation, existence erasure, and abstract existence
The Bros scale to Reclusa when empowered by bonds

---

Vote:
Agree: JJSliderman, AStrangeverse, DarkDragonMedeus [SUPERMOD], Psychomaster35, FinePoint [THREADMOD], Alloyami, Omnificience, Secimitar, OrangeFR, ActuallySpaceMan42 [THREADMOD]

Disagree: Armorchompy [THREADMOD], Hypertornado009, Mr. Bambu [BUREAUCRAT], Maverick [ADMIN]
Neutral: ZespeonGalaxy (the neutral life is a lonely life...)
Agree under these conditions: JJSliderman (no conceptual existence) DarkDragonMedeus (only scales to Reclusa for now(?)) ActuallySpaceMan42 (2-C)

Current Mod vote:
Agree: DarkDragonMedeus [ADMIN], FinePoint, ActuallySpaceMan42
Disagree: Armorchompy, Maverick [ADMIN], Mr Bambu [BUREAUCRAT]
Neutral:

I want something explained further (request, and I shall answer)

 

[JJSliderman]

Agree with everything barring conceptual and abstract existence stuff, think it’s a little too vague for me.

Should also mention that the Bros. can take coins they collect in Reclusa’s world to the real world to establish they are real, and note that the worlds all disappear with Reclusa’s death and are created with Glohm (Reclusa’s main attack option) to show Universal energy system.

 

[Galactidot]

Agree with everything barring conceptual and abstract existence stuff, think it’s a little too vague for me.

Should also mention that the Bros. can take coins they collect in Reclusa’s world to the real world to establish they are real, and note that the worlds all disappear with Reclusa’s death and are created with Glohm (Reclusa’s main attack option) to show Universal energy system.

Alright!
Just checking, does 2-A make sense, or is it a CRAZY reach, like I said in the CRT?

 

[JJSliderman]

Think it’s a reach for now, Reclusa’s powers haven’t shown to extend to the reach of paint, which the arg of paint being sentient and reaching across the infinite universe is one of the big args for infinite dreams.

 

[Galactidot]

Think it’s a reach for now, Reclusa’s powers haven’t shown to extend to the reach of paint, which the arg of paint being sentient and reaching across the infinite universe is one of the big args for infinite dreams.

Okay, that makes tons of sense.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

I disagree with the abilities except AE and concept I guess, but my concern is. The chinese version, is this dialogue and usage of words consistent in the japanese version?

 

[JJSliderman]

Isn’t Reclusa making worlds with objects that carry over to the real world, that also are referred to as dream worlds, enough to qualify for the standard Mario Low 2-C dream idea?

 

[ShakeResounding]

I think a mock-up draft of what Reclusa's AP would be in the page is beneficial to have in the OP. It typically helps with getting the point across with the related evidence in a swift manner

 

[JJSliderman]

I imagine it would be for Reclusa:
High 6-A, 2-B via Creation or just straight 2-B

Mario and Luigi would be High 6-A, higher when powered by Bonds, or High 6-A, 2-B when powered by Bonds, depending on if Glohm allows Reclusa’s attacking power to scale to the creation aspect.

 

[Galactidot]

I disagree with the abilities except AE and concept I guess, but my concern is. The chinese version, is this dialogue and usage of words consistent in the japanese version?

I assume this means you agree overall, minus existence erasure?
As for the "dialogue or uses of words", I'd assume you're talking about the number of worlds he's destroyed. In this case, similar words are indeed used!

 

[Armorchompy]

I'll begin by mentioning I don't know much about Brothership so if some of my questions would have obvious answers to someone who's played the game, that's why.

Reclusa traps his victims in Dream Worlds that he can freely modify, destroy, and create.

He never mentions he's making them. Having "prepared" a dream for someone only implies he was planning for them to go to it, not stating it was tailor-made for them. I know it can seem nitpicky but I honestly don't see anything in these scans that really implies he's created them.

He's done this to at least hundreds of worlds

Why would we use the chinese translation??

Secondarily this doesn't say all of these worlds are created at once.

This would put him at at least 2-C, as this lines up with the definitions of the tier.

I wouldn't assume these artificially-created dreams are universe-sized just because "regular" dreams are.

Realistically, he's a more expansive dream stone

What does this even mean

He's succeeded in exterminating all life in a given world many, many times.

I don't doubt this but I'd want a scan.

As stated here, Reclusa is the spirit of solitude, a classic phrasing for a concept given form.

No it isn't? Definitely not based on a translation by someone who by their own admission struggles to understand the language.

He could potentially have conceptual manipulation and abstract existence if this is accepted.

Even if he was conceptual in existence that wouldn't be giving him concept manip.

He could potentially have existence erasure.
Here, he claims to be planning to erase Mario and Luigi's existence. I too doubted this at first, but he's very consistent with this wording across all languages.

I'd want a translator to double check the JP version, could be a figure of speech. But if it's accurate, then it's fine, maybe with a likely.

Reclusa gave Zokket his powers through Glohm

I just want to say this is a really funny sentence for someone who hasn't played the game. But also, I'd like scans.

the counterpart to bonds. We see that Glohm can manipulate space (or at the very least perception), amplify power, and create impenetrable forcefields, similar to the one the Dream Stone created. This very Glohm is the power Reclusa uses to cause so much destruction...

This runs into the usual issues with empowerment-based scaling. First off you'd have to prove Reclusa actually used this for the universe stuff- that it is something he uses doesn't mean it's the source of everything he does. Secondarily you'd need to prove it actually empowers everything to the same degree- just because Reclusa can do X with Dream Manipulation doesn't necessarily mean they can output the same level of energy in combat.

Think of bonds like a more broad "power of friendship". Bonds amp the Bros' power, and allow them to break through Reclusa's barrier. The Bros gain an aura when using bonds, and allow them to survive the Glohm Fog.

The fog appears to be hax, not raw AP. And while I don't doubt that they're stronger (that much is self evident) after they break past the barrier they seem to be overwhelmed by a group of enemies, requiring (normal, as far as I can tell) Bowser to bail them out, suggesting it's not an infinite leap in power.

Speaking of the final boss fight, it consists of Reclusa summoning normal enemies to attack you while you are initially powerless to defeat the whole thing. The second one I can excuse given he seems to be amped by the tree thing, but the former also doesn't exactly make it seem like the bros are infinitely stronger than before.

 

[JPTheGamer]

I'll begin by mentioning I don't know much about Brothership so if some of my questions would have obvious answers to someone who's played the game, that's why.

He never mentions he's making them. Having "prepared" a dream for someone only implies he was planning for them to go to it, not stating it was tailor-made for them. I know it can seem nitpicky but I honestly don't see anything in these scans that really implies he's created them.

Why would we use the chinese translation??

Secondarily this doesn't say all of these worlds are created at once.

I wouldn't assume these artificially-created dreams are universe-sized just because "regular" dreams are.

What does this even mean

I don't doubt this but I'd want a scan.

No it isn't? Definitely not based on a translation by someone who by their own admission struggles to understand the language.

Even if he was conceptual in existence that wouldn't be giving him concept manip.

I'd want a translator to double check the JP version, could be a figure of speech. But if it's accurate, then it's fine, maybe with a likely.

I just want to say this is a really funny sentence for someone who hasn't played the game. But also, I'd like scans.

This runs into the usual issues with empowerment-based scaling. First off you'd have to prove Reclusa actually used this for the universe stuff- that it is something he uses doesn't mean it's the source of everything he does. Secondarily you'd need to prove it actually empowers everything to the same degree- just because Reclusa can do X with Dream Manipulation doesn't necessarily mean they can output the same level of energy in combat.

The fog appears to be hax, not raw AP. And while I don't doubt that they're stronger (that much is self evident) after they break past the barrier they seem to be overwhelmed by a group of enemies, requiring (normal, as far as I can tell) Bowser to bail them out, suggesting it's not an infinite leap in power.

Speaking of the final boss fight, it consists of Reclusa summoning normal enemies to attack you while you are initially powerless to defeat the whole thing. The second one I can excuse given he seems to be amped by the tree thing, but the former also doesn't exactly make it seem like the bros are infinitely stronger than before.

So, what's your vote?

 

[Armorchompy]

So, what's your vote?

... I currently disagree, with the exception of EE, where if the translation is confirmed it's fine.

 

[Galactidot]

I'll begin by mentioning I don't know much about Brothership so if some of my questions would have obvious answers to someone who's played the game, that's why.

Okay, keep in mind I've 100%'d it, along with everyone referenced here.

He never mentions he's making them. Having "prepared" a dream for someone only implies he was planning for them to go to it, not stating it was tailor-made for them. I know it can seem nitpicky but I honestly don't see anything in these scans that really implies he's created them.

There's not only a whole segment featuring him repeatedly editing and ultimately deleting the dream worlds, but yes, this is quite nitpicky.

Why would we use the chinese translation??

Secondarily this doesn't say all of these worlds are created at once.

The Chinese translation was simply an accompanying image. Japanese is one of the "multiple languages" mentioned below.

I wouldn't assume these artificially-created dreams are universe-sized just because "regular" dreams are.

This is very confusing. We can see from flower dialogue that the dreams can be lots of different sizes. Some dream worlds in Mario and Luigi Dream Team are only a single room large, or something like the Battle Ring.

What does this even mean

Dream Stone with more universes...

I don't doubt this but I'd want a scan.

That's the purpose of this section

No it isn't? Definitely not based on a translation by someone who by their own admission struggles to understand the language.

The word バケモン is used, which means (bakemon), which is slang for 化け物 (bakemono, literally “a transforming thing” or "apparition"). This usually means monster, but when dealing with something more supernatural or emotion-based, it usually refers to something more akin to a ghost --- a spirit. We refer to this as a "contextual" word.

Even if he was conceptual in existence that wouldn't be giving him concept manip.

I agree with this upon further inspection.

I'd want a translator to double check the JP version, could be a figure of speech. But if it's accurate, then it's fine, maybe with a likely.

Will get that!

I just want to say this is a really funny sentence for someone who hasn't played the game. But also, I'd like scans.

here
Also it does sound hilarious out of context
Glohm sounds like some sort of onomatopoeia for slime you'd see in a comic book

This runs into the usual issues with empowerment-based scaling. First off you'd have to prove Reclusa actually used this for the universe stuff- that it is something he uses doesn't mean it's the source of everything he does. Secondarily you'd need to prove it actually empowers everything to the same degree- just because Reclusa can do X with Dream Manipulation doesn't necessarily mean they can output the same level of energy in combat.

Flowered individuals use the Glohm speech bubble, and the doc, who specializes in amp-berries, which are bond-fruits (don't laugh) that can cure Glohm, is immediately rushed to for assistance.

Glohmed foes are stronger. they can create spiked shields, have boosted stats, can get additional stat boosts at the start of battles, can attempt to counterattack, create physical clones of themselves, and release a shockwave of energy when defeated.

The fog appears to be hax, not raw AP. And while I don't doubt that they're stronger (that much is self evident) after they break past the barrier they seem to be overwhelmed by a group of enemies, requiring (normal, as far as I can tell) Bowser to bail them out, suggesting it's not an infinite leap in power.

Bowser was not only running on a level of rage in vengeance of Junior, but these enemies hit by the cannonballs can be seen twitching after --- they were simply stunned.
My placement of the fog statement is kinda awkward, looking back on it. I was trying to focus on bonds being a force as powerful as Glohm.

Speaking of the final boss fight, it consists of Reclusa summoning normal enemies to attack you while you are initially powerless to defeat the whole thing. The second one I can excuse given he seems to be amped by the tree thing, but the former also doesn't exactly make it seem like the bros are infinitely stronger than before.

These enemies are all unironically full of Glohm, funny you mention it. They're anything but normal --- as a matter of fact, they can infect the Bros. with it, and are absurdly powerful. Seedlusas, after blooming, have boss-like amounts of HP.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

My main concern for creating/destroying many universes is that it's more so implied he does so one by one over time rather than all at once. So I lean more towards Low 2-C than I do 2-C or 2-B without further context.

Existence Erasure looks good as do abilities like corruption and statistics amplification for Glohm. Mario and Luigi having statistics amplification, and other abilities such as restoration, blessed, and resistance to corruption. But I do not agree with Abstract Existence or Conceptual Manipulation without further context.

 

[JJSliderman]

I think what pushes me to 2-B is that it’s also a sustaining feat, when Reclusa dies all the worlds immediately disappear

 

[Galactidot]

I think what pushes me to 2-B is that it’s also a sustaining feat, when Reclusa dies all the worlds immediately disappear

OH SHOOT I JUST REALIZED THAT

THANKS FOR POINTING THAT OUT

THIS ALSO SOLIDIFIES CREATION AND CONTROL OVER "PREPARATION"!

 

[Lou_change]

(Caused the destruction of several worlds prior to reaching Concordia, with Shun explaining that he'll do this "again and again" had Mario & Luigi not interfere, with worlds in Mario generally being other universes or dimensions.)

Isn't it just him killing everyone with flowers. I mean if it is a counterpart to bonds or even love, glohm could potentially reach such levels at its full potential but it's unclear if he has that level of power.

This is also the first time we would scale anybody to creating dreams in mario if I am not mistaken. We previously used the destruction or power of dreams for scaling, but since creation boiled down to sleeping scaling was weird. Reclusa isn't shown able to create worlds outside this specific method which seemingly involves sleeping individuals.

That said if we accept that scaling he has the dream characters refer to the world as new immediately after saying he'll show the bros a better world. Implying he is able to at least heavily alter any dream world he creates.

I think what pushes me to 2-B is that it’s also a sustaining feat, when Reclusa dies all the worlds immediately disappear

You mean when the flowers die?

 

[JJSliderman]

You mean when the flowers die?

Yeah, the flowers generate the worlds.

 

[Galactidot]

Isn't it just him killing everyone with flowers. I mean if it is a counterpart to bonds or even love, glohm could potentially reach such levels at its full potential but it's unclear if he has that level of power.

He's killing everyone with flowers through dreams...

This is also the first time we would scale anybody to creating dreams in mario if I am not mistaken. We previously used the destruction or power of dreams for scaling, but since creation boiled down to sleeping scaling was weird. Reclusa isn't shown able to create worlds outside this specific method which seemingly involves sleeping individuals.

That said if we accept that scaling he has the dream characters refer to the world as new immediately after saying he'll show the bros a better world. Implying he is able to at least heavily alter any dream world he creates.

Yup! Reclusa is a very interesting character in this regard.

You mean when the flowers die?

Also yep

 

[Hypertornado099]

Disagree with EE, "erase your existence" could mean simply killing the Mario Bros

 

[JJSliderman]

I thought Chakravartin got possibly for a similar statement, haven’t checked in awhile.

 

[Armorchompy]

There's not only a whole segment featuring him repeatedly editing and ultimately deleting the dream worlds, but yes, this is quite nitpicky.

As far as the evidence that was given, honestly no it was not. Speaking of that I'd like a scan.

The Chinese translation was simply an accompanying image. Japanese is one of the "multiple languages" mentioned below.

There isn't a scan for the Japanese statement or a full translation of it (I understand the discord post might be that but it's translating a single phrase without any context).

This is very confusing. We can see from flower dialogue that the dreams can be lots of different sizes. Some dream worlds in Mario and Luigi Dream Team are only a single room large, or something like the Battle Ring.

That seems like fairly noteworthy evidence against them all being treated as universes.

Dream Stone with more universes...

I don't have all of the Mario & Luigi downloaded onto my brain and neither should others. I don't know what that means. (And by the way I wouldn't take "worlds" to mean "universe" in this context).

That's the purpose of this section

So to my understanding the idea is he goes from world to world doing the dream stuff,

The word バケモン is used, which means (bakemon), which is slang for 化け物 (bakemono, literally “a transforming thing” or "apparition"). This usually means monster, but when dealing with something more supernatural or emotion-based, it usually refers to something more akin to a ghost --- a spirit. We refer to this as a "contextual" word.

That doesn't really imply conceptual existence. A bakemono is a type of shapeshifting spirit, and ghosts in japanese folklore are bound to reality by powerful emotions such as anger or desire for revenge. Even if we're taking the term literally that's a more likely inspiration than him being a literal incarnation of the concept.

here

This is just them talking about Reclusa's power and how they were transformed. I looked it up and the two events are connected but is Glohm brought up?

Flowered individuals use the Glohm speech bubble, and the doc, who specializes in amp-berries, which are bond-fruits (don't laugh) that can cure Glohm, is immediately rushed to for assistance.

This is evidence that it's affecting their minds, sure, but I wasn't questioning that.

Glohmed foes are stronger. they can create spiked shields, have boosted stats, can get additional stat boosts at the start of battles, can attempt to counterattack, create physical clones of themselves, and release a shockwave of energy when defeated.

It's not a question of "does Glohm amp them", it's a question of "is the amp universal enough that the energy used to create universes would be equally applicable to combat". There isn't really any lore for this type of thing.

Bowser was not only running on a level of rage in vengeance of Junior, but these enemies hit by the cannonballs can be seen twitching after --- they were simply stunned.

A cannon's power is not dependent on the emotional state of who's manned it. And whether they were killed or just hurt, the fact of the matter is they were defeated by someone who is allegedly infinitely inferior to the bros after threatening them.

These enemies are all unironically full of Glohm, funny you mention it. They're anything but normal --- as a matter of fact, they can infect the Bros. with it, and are absurdly powerful. Seedlusas, after blooming, have boss-like amounts of HP.

Sure, ok.

 

[Lou_change]

Yeah, the flowers generate the worlds.

But dreams don't disappear when you stop dreaming in mario?

 

[JJSliderman]

Reclusa’s is more artificial and maintained by him.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The OP is actually reminding me of a lot of things, but I may want to save things for later when it comes to overhauling the verse and its scaling as a whole. But it's already been established time and time again that Dream Worlds in Mario lore are parallel universes; with Super Mario Bros 2 and extended materials actually being the one that elaborated most. Mario Party 5 had a lot of bits and pieces where at least one has multiple universe statements combined with them all being parallel, and Dream Team demonstrated dreams having endless abysses and there flow of time. But extended materials for Super Mario Bros 2 U.S. even said "As many subcons as there are people's dreams" what talking about different dream worlds, and traveling to different ones talks about "Traveling to different Space-Time continuums."

And yeah, in Reclusa's case, he puts people to sleep to create those artificial dream worlds. And follows the tradition on universes being born every time someone goes to sleep. And they were all destroyed upon Reclusa's defeat; which would be a 2-B stabilization/chain reaction feat minimum. But given Reclusa being the driver of all Glohm, and Glohm as a substance is dark/evil energy that corrupts people while also empowering them. As for the case of turning early game bosses into superbosses, Reclusa can significantly warp and effect his created Dream worlds and thus strong indicator of them translating to solid AP ratings. And Glohm is ultimately the inverse of the power of Bond (Which is more or less the same thing as Power of Friendship from Saint Seiya or Fairy Tail) that is used to manifest those worlds.

I'm on board with this being a 2-B feat outright for Reclusa, but I'd hold back on who this scales to for later.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Yeah, everything agreed here looks fine.

 

[Lou_change]

Reclusa’s is more artificial and maintained by him.

Does anything explicitly confirm the dreams are destroyed

 

[JJSliderman]

Does anything explicitly confirm the dreams are destroyed

Dunno actually.

 

[AlloyAmi]

following for now but just wanna say one thing

with worlds in Mario generally being other universes or dimensions

not too important but the usage of world shouldnt be scaled to its usage in a completely different source as worlds in other games can range from far areas in space to just be other areas on a planet. and contextually that statement would make more sense to refer to how the entire universe was remade in the end of galaxy 1 and now this game is happening immedately after. Galaxy 2s worlds together are the universe, each world being a universe in galaxy 2 doesn't really fit especially when the game also refers to the grand scheme of it as just the universe. you should prove what world means in the context of specifically brothership. the posts suggests kingdoms but you can also make a case that its the higher interpretation considering the implications of concordia being a seperate universe then the one marios from, but i barely played brothership so i wouldnt know the full context of what the main villain does.

 

[FinePoint]

I essentially agree with DDM.

 

[AlloyAmi]

also agree with DDM

 

[Psychomaster35]

Let me get more staff to check this.

@LephyrTheRevanchist @Catzlaflame Input on this CRT would be appreciated. The staff vote is 2-1-0 in favor of agreeing.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Let me get more staff to check this.

@LephyrTheRevanchist @Catzlaflame Input on this CRT would be appreciated. The staff vote is 2-1-0 in favor of agreeing.

Haven't played the game nor seen anything on it. Am planning to do it at some point. Until then, I am not getting involved with any thread about it. Sorry.

 

[Armorchompy]

Could I ask that people address my questions and disagreements? I feel like votes shouldn't be cast until the debate has at least progressed.

 

[Hypertornado099]

And they were all destroyed upon Reclusa's defeat; which would be a 2-B stabilization/chain reaction feat minimum.

The scan doesn't mention they were being sustained by his power or that they were destroyed

But given Reclusa being the driver of all Glohm, and Glohm as a substance is dark/evil energy that corrupts people while also empowering them

How do we know if Glohm amps physicals to the same level as Reclusa's universe creation, which isn't even done with Glohm?

Reclusa can significantly warp and effect his created Dream worlds

The scan provided doesn't prove this though

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The scan doesn't mention they were being sustained by his power or that they were destroyed

It wasn't the OP but.

I think what pushes me to 2-B is that it’s also a sustaining feat, when Reclusa dies all the worlds immediately disappear

When and where was this stated or at least implied again? @JJSliderman @Galactidot

How do we know if Glohm amps physicals to the same level as Reclusa's universe creation, which isn't even done with Glohm?

Worlds were created using flowers that spew Glohm

The scan provided doesn't prove this though

Saying he "Prepares them" implies he warps them in addition to creating them.

 

[JJSliderman]

It wasn't the OP but.

When and where was this stated or at least implied again?

Well I think it’s pretty like Reclusa at least created them, something like Mario and Luigi getting transplanted to worlds that solely suited them that already existed feels pretty far fetched. I guess it’s not directly stated that Reclusa sustains them; but the flowers that linked the characters to the worlds all disappear on his death and the destruction of the Soli-tree.

 

[The_Almighty_Wholesome]

Bump

 

[Galactidot]

Could I ask that people address my questions and disagreements? I feel like votes shouldn't be cast until the debate has at least progressed.

Okay. Here we go, then~

There's not only a whole segment featuring him repeatedly editing and ultimately deleting the dream worlds, but yes, this is quite nitpicky.

As far as the evidence that was given, honestly no it was not. Speaking of that I'd like a scan.

Admit it's probably petty --> someone calls you out on it --> it wasn't petty what are you talking about



That aside, I was somewhat off. First off, he wasn't shown to delete them... He wasn't editing them either...
But each variation IS described as a different world, which he repeatedly creates in an attempt to appease Mario and Luigi.
These are furthermore described as NEW worlds, so we get to see creation instead, which is honestly more impressive than editing anyways. (Besides, we do still get to see him perform what can be assumed to be minor edits within the dream world itself.)
See all this here.

This may also be of interest to @JJSliderman and @DarkDragonMedeus

The Chinese translation was simply an accompanying image. Japanese is one of the "multiple languages" mentioned below.

There isn't a scan for the Japanese statement or a full translation of it (I understand the discord post might be that but it's translating a single phrase without any context).

I will say that user left the server for confidential reasons I can't state, but I'm gonna find and verify these translations myself --- please bear with me.

This is very confusing. We can see from flower dialogue that the dreams can be lots of different sizes. Some dream worlds in Mario and Luigi Dream Team are only a single room large, or something like the Battle Ring.

That seems like fairly noteworthy evidence against them all being treated as universes.

Dream Stone with more universes...

I don't have all of the Mario & Luigi downloaded onto my brain and neither should others. I don't know what that means. (And by the way I wouldn't take "worlds" to mean "universe" in this context).

Why did I word it like that... They APPEAR to only be a single room large, but it can be deeper than that. Omnificence created this on a similar topic, to get the idea across.

That's the purpose of this section

So to my understanding the idea is he goes from world to world doing the dream stuff,

Pretty much

The word バケモン is used, which means (bakemon), which is slang for 化け物 (bakemono, literally “a transforming thing” or "apparition"). This usually means monster, but when dealing with something more supernatural or emotion-based, it usually refers to something more akin to a ghost --- a spirit. We refer to this as a "contextual" word.

That doesn't really imply conceptual existence. A bakemono is a type of shapeshifting spirit, and ghosts in japanese folklore are bound to reality by powerful emotions such as anger or desire for revenge. Even if we're taking the term literally that's a more likely inspiration than him being a literal incarnation of the concept.

Yeah, imma leave this one for the translation verification as well.

here

This is just them talking about Reclusa's power and how they were transformed. I looked it up and the two events are connected but is Glohm brought up?

Reclusa turns Glohm into energy, which he used to empower Cozette and the bosses.

Flowered individuals use the Glohm speech bubble, and the doc, who specializes in amp-berries, which are bond-fruits (don't laugh) that can cure Glohm, is immediately rushed to for assistance.

This is evidence that it's affecting their minds, sure, but I wasn't questioning that.

You wanted to know how Reclusa uses Glohm for the universe stuff? Because this is how you know Reclusa uses Glohm for the universe stuff.

Glohmed foes are stronger. they can create spiked shields, have boosted stats, can get additional stat boosts at the start of battles, can attempt to counterattack, create physical clones of themselves, and release a shockwave of energy when defeated.

It's not a question of "does Glohm amp them", it's a question of "is the amp universal enough that the energy used to create universes would be equally applicable to combat". There isn't really any lore for this type of thing.

As DDM said here, Glohm directly amps the early-game boss, the humble Gobblick, into a superboss. The same happens to Sharpcask and Pipegunk.

Bowser was not only running on a level of rage in vengeance of Junior, but these enemies hit by the cannonballs can be seen twitching after --- they were simply stunned.

A cannon's power is not dependent on the emotional state of who's manned it. And whether they were killed or just hurt, the fact of the matter is they were defeated by someone who is allegedly infinitely inferior to the bros after threatening them.

Bowser's rage was indicative of him still getting neg-diffed by Reclusa, and he himself not being in any way amped by bonds. It's already been established that Bowser being pissed off is an amp of sorts in itself. The cannonballs were mentioned to show how these enemies weren't even defeated, and rather stunned.

These enemies are all unironically full of Glohm, funny you mention it. They're anything but normal --- as a matter of fact, they can infect the Bros. with it, and are absurdly powerful. Seedlusas, after blooming, have boss-like amounts of HP.

Sure, ok.

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