Problems with Lookism (PTJ verse) speed calculations

[Dinozxd]

Lookism speed calculations:​

1. Warren Chae's multi punch
The calculation assumes that all of the punches moved in one single timeframe (0.08s), but there is no evidence supporting that. Each punch could've just moved in seperate timeframes (each punch moving in 0.08s) which would've been enough to blitz the other guy.

Plus, all of the punches don't even need to move that fast for the other guy to not be able to react to them. He's literally getting bombarded with punches, which would naturally reduce his ability to be able to react to attacks.

Decision: Getting rid of the calc (2 staff votes)

2. Piggy blocks a knife
This is just a variation of those old "Dodging punches from close range" calcs. The "piggy" character after performing this feat almost got killed by the dude with the knife which pretty much invalidates the calc as it assumes that the speed gap between them is like 40x.

Decision: Getting rid of the calc (2 staff votes)

3. Sinu kicks 5 fodders
Again, this calculation assumes that all of the kicks happened in the same timeframe while all of them could've just happened in seperate timeframes.
edit: Looking at the feat closer, the dudes who get hit individually doesn't seem to be able to move nor react to the kicks, which actually does justify using one timeframe for all of the kicks. Homewer, the distance used is still really inflated. There's nothing to support that he pulled his leg back after every kick, so the distance should be 5 meters instead of 10.
The calc also uses 0.029s as the timeframe which was deemed as invalid in this thread.

Decision: Fixing the timeframe (2 staff votes)

4. Goo full moon slashes
Feel like I'm just repeating myself here but these multiple hit calculations are just insane. I don't see any evidence showing that all of the sword slashes happened in one timeframe. This calc is even worse because no timeframe can even be given to all of the seperate slashes as no one is getting blitzed here.

Decision: Getting rid of the calc (2 staff votes)

5. Shingen punches Masaichi
The calculation assumes that Shingen rotates his shoulder and punches the dude's hand in the timeframe of the guy's punch moving 3 cm. The scene itself invalidates this as we see that Shingen can almost fit his whole arm between his face and the dude's fist in the 4th scan, which means that Shingen moved away from the punch before punching it himself, which in turn invalidates the timeframe.
Decision: Getting rid of the calc (2 staff votes)

Small note: I didn't include this calculation in the thread as it already got recalculated here.

Viral Hit speed calculations​

1. Viral Hit: Start of series Hobin low kick
Like the "Piggy blocks a knife" calculation, this calculation implies that there's a 30x gap in speed between Hobin and the other guy, while we see that that's not the case at all in the full fight.

Decision: Getting rid of the calc (2 staff votes)

2. Hobin moves fast
The calculation has no pixel scaling, assumes almost all of the distances and uses calc stacking.
Also there's no proof that Hobin moved all the distance in the timeframe.

Decision: Getting rid of the calc (2 staff votes)

Manager Kim speed calculations​

Jincheol park shoots a knife
The reason why this calc is invalid is kinda similar to the Shingen Punches Masaichi calc, but it's less obvious. In the first scan we see the knife that was thrown at Jıncheol is right near Jıncheol's head. Homewer after Jıncheol shoots the knife away (the second scan) we see that his hand is positioned to be ahead his head, despite the first scan showing us that the knife was thrown is right near him. The calculation assumes that Jıncheol only moved his head away while looking at the position of his hand, we see that Jincheol must've moved his head back too.

This invalidates the timeframe used in the accepted calculation as we can't know if the knife got past Jincheol's head or not because his head isn't at the same plane as the knife by the time he shoots it away.

Decision: Getting rid of the calc (2 staff votes)

Questism speed calculations​

1. Daniel moves fast
The distance moved by Daniel is inflated. He doesn't need to move his forearm more than 90 degrees to grab the dude.

Decision: Using 90 degrees forearm movement instead of 180 degrees (2 staff votes I think?)

2. Daniel dodges Sooyun's blade
The calculation uses 2 cm as the distance between the sword and Daniel's face, but we literally see in the full scene (specifically in this panel) that Daniel's face is nowhere near the sword when he blocks the hit. This can only mean that Daniel also moved away from the blade as he was moving his hand to block it, which invalidates the timeframe.

Also, looking at the scene closer, it seems like this is more of a Power Null/Damage Reduction hax rather than a speed feat, as he literally gets some sort of power boost that lets him do that in the scene.

Decision: Using this panel to angsize the distance instead (2 staff votes I think?) Calc's getting discarded


Staff Agreements: @Drite77, @Floxy178

Staff Disagreements:

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

They still solo Tokyo Revengers Bro, but the "Hobin move fast" is just egrigiously bad.

 

[Dinozxd]

They still solo Tokyo Revengers Bro

Mikey blitzes and dura negs the entire verse

but the "Hobin move fast" is just egrigiously bad.

I'm surprised about how that shit even got evaluated bruh

 

[Kachon123]

2. Piggy blocks a knife
This is just a variation of those old "Dodging punches from close range" calcs. The "piggy" character after performing this feat almost got killed by the dude with the knife which pretty much invalidates the calc as it assumes that the speed gap between them is like 40x.

Re-read the link that you sent. Nowhere in that chapter was Daniel outsped by the guy with the knife. Jabs are meant to be extremely fast. Zack Lee's (the dude that Daniel modeled) jab is noted to be extremely fast and Daniel has a perfect copy ability. This calc is fine.

Homewer, the distance used is still really inflated. There's nothing to support that he pulled his leg back after every kick, so the distance should be 5 meters instead of 10.

Again, please read the scene. Sinu without a doubt retracted his leg back after every kick. Otherwise he would have done a full roundhouse kick. Instead each of the fodders were kicked head on in the face from completely different angles. That would be impossible unless he pulled his leg for each one. The distance is fine.

4. Goo full moon slashes
Feel like I'm just repeating myself here but these multiple hit calculations are just insane. I don't see any evidence showing that all of the sword slashes happened in one timeframe. This calc is even worse because no timeframe can even be given to all of the seperate slashes as no one is getting blitzed here.

I'm starting to believe that you just... haven't read Lookism before? Goo quite literally did what looked like one sword stroke and it manifested as dozens. How in the world do you not see that it happened in a single timeframe? This argument was hardly worth replying to because all it takes is a single look at the scene to debunk it. The calc is fine.

5. Shingen punches Masaichi
The calculation assumes that Shingen rotates his shoulder and punches the dude's hand in the timeframe of the guy's punch moving 3 cm. The scene itself invalidates this as we see that Shingen can almost fit his whole arm between his face and the dude's fist in the 4th scan, which means that Shingen moved away from the punch before punching it himself, which in turn invalidates the timeframe.

You linked the wrong blog.

1. Viral Hit: Start of series Hobin low kick
Like the "Piggy blocks a knife" calculation, this calculation implies that there's a 30x gap in speed between Hobin and the other guy, while we see that that's not the case at all in the full fight.

Now you're just lying.

1. The punch thrown at Hobin was a heavy low punch. Compared to the low kick that his noted to be super relaxed and use the torque from twisting your body. Narratively and just by physics, a low kick like that with perfect technique would be far faster than a punch of that nature.

2. Hobin is literally shown to be faster than the guy, so there's no contradiction

2. Hobin moves fast
The calculation has no pixel scaling, assumes almost all of the distances and uses calc stacking.
Also there's no proof that Hobin moved all the distance in the timeframe.

A calculation not having pixel scaling does not mean it's not valid. I have no idea who told you that.

There is no calc stacking in that calc.
Except we do have proof that Hobin moved that distance within the timeframe as we literally get a panel where we see Hobin move in the exact time it took the boxer to complete his punch. Did you actually read the blog?

Jincheol park shoots a knife
The reason why this calc is invalid is kinda similar to the Shingen Punches Masaichi calc, but it's less obvious. In the first scan we see the knife that was thrown at Jıncheol is right near Jıncheol's head. Homewer after Jıncheol shoots the knife away (the second scan) we see that his hand is positioned to be ahead his head, despite the first scan showing us that the knife was thrown is right near him. The calculation assumes that Jıncheol only moved his head away while looking at the position of his hand, we see that Jincheol must've moved his head back too.

This invalidates the timeframe used in the accepted calculation as we can't know if the knife got past Jincheol's head or not because his head isn't at the same plane as the knife by the time he shoots it away

What you failed to account for was the fact that after Jincheol shot the knife, it was cut perfectly in half. What this means is that Jincheol did not shoot the tip of the knife which was right in front of his face, but instead right where the handle and the blade meet (the middle). There is no contradiction.

1. Daniel moves fast
The distance moved by Daniel is inflated. He doesn't need to move his forearm more than 90 degrees to grab the dude.

Eunhyeong punched with his right arm and Daniel grabbed with his right arm. What this means is that Daniel had to move his forearm completely across his body from a lowered position. 90º would not cut it. 180º is fine.

2. Daniel dodges Sooyun's blade
The calculation uses 2 cm as the distance between the sword and Daniel's face, but we literally see in the full scene (specifically in this panel) that Daniel's face is nowhere near the sword when he blocks the hit. This can only mean that Daniel also moved away from the blade as he was moving his hand to block it, which invalidates the timeframe.

This simply means that the panel where we see Daniel's hand and Sooyun's blade took place after he already pushed it forwards a bit. We know that's the case because when when the sequence is shown afterwards, we see that the sword first got pushed into a position behind Sooyun before getting thrown downwards.

 

[Vzearr]

Re-read the link that you sent. Nowhere in that chapter was Daniel outsped by the guy with the knife. Jabs are meant to be extremely fast. Zack Lee's (the dude that Daniel modeled) jab is noted to be extremely fast and Daniel has a perfect copy ability. This calc is fine.

Down force swing has no written value, but since it's considerably slower than other swings it shouldn't be in the athletic range. Considering that's not even related to swings, and considering it's an old man.

You'd also need pythag and angsizing to scale the distance from the knife, so this calc is wrong.

Again, please read the scene. Sinu without a doubt retracted his leg back after every kick. Otherwise he would have done a full roundhouse kick. Instead each of the fodders were kicked head on in the face from completely different angles. That would be impossible unless he pulled his leg for each one. The distance is fine.

The distance here doesn't work, you don't do that, you calculate the degrees he has to move and retract his legs to accurately get a distance moved, but there isn't any evidence he fully retracts his legs.

I'm starting to believe that you just... haven't read Lookism before? Goo quite literally did what looked like one sword stroke and it manifested as dozens. How in the world do you not see that it happened in a single timeframe? This argument was hardly worth replying to because all it takes is a single look at the scene to debunk it. The calc is fine.

1. I counted sub 30 slashes.
2. 10 meters for one slash makes literally zero sense.

This calc is also bunk.

Now you're just lying.

1. The punch thrown at Hobin was a heavy low punch. Compared to the low kick that his noted to be super relaxed and use the torque from twisting your body. Narratively and just by physics, a low kick like that with perfect technique would be far faster than a punch of that nature.

2. Hobin is literally shown to be faster than the guy, so there's no contradiction

We don't accept stuff like this, there is no reason to believe he wasn't already halfway through his kick when the guy's punch was that close.

A calculation not having pixel scaling does not mean it's not valid. I have no idea who told you that.

There is no calc stacking in that calc.
Except we do have proof that Hobin moved that distance within the timeframe as we literally get a panel where we see Hobin move in the exact time it took the boxer to complete his punch. Did you actually read the blog?

The calc is assumption based, it assumes the distance, here, pixel scaling is required.

Let's also not forget Hobin didn't need to move that distance within the timeframe because the dudes punched potentially moved past Hobin's initial position.

What you failed to account for was the fact that after Jincheol shot the knife, it was cut perfectly in half. What this means is that Jincheol did not shoot the tip of the knife which was right in front of his face, but instead right where the handle and the blade meet (the middle). There is no contradiction.

The problem with this calc is that he didn't need to move such an inflated distance. We calculate the minimum distance moved not somewhere in the middle.

Eunhyeong punched with his right arm and Daniel grabbed with his right arm. What this means is that Daniel had to move his forearm completely across his body from a lowered position. 90º would not cut it. 180º is fine.

90 degrees makes more sense, if it was 180 degrees his hand would be at his own head.

This simply means that the panel where we see Daniel's hand and Sooyun's blade took place after he already pushed it forwards a bit. We know that's the case because when when the sequence is shown afterwards, we see that the sword first got pushed into a position behind Sooyun before getting thrown downwards.

This calculation doesn't even make sense.

 

[Dinozxd]

Re-read the link that you sent. Nowhere in that chapter was Daniel outsped by the guy with the knife.

He doesn't outright get outsped by him sure, but he doesn't even try to put up a fight aganist the dude on a one on one and directly goes into a turtle shell like stance to protect Zoe instead. You don't do that when you have a 40x speed advantage lol.

Jabs are meant to be extremely fast. Zack Lee's (the dude that Daniel modeled) jab is noted to be extremely fast and Daniel has a perfect copy ability.

If he has the perfect copy ability and is somehow comparable to Zack, then why is the guy able to react to the hook Daniel throws right after?

I know the hook missed, but the guy is very obviously able to react and even brace for the punch. Does Daniel look like he has 40x speed advantage over the other guy?

Again, please read the scene. Sinu without a doubt retracted his leg back after every kick. Otherwise he would have done a full roundhouse kick. Instead each of the fodders were kicked head on in the face from completely different angles. That would be impossible unless he pulled his leg for each one. The distance is fine.

Or he could've pulled one of these but with more flexibility?

I'm starting to believe that you just... haven't read Lookism before? Goo quite literally did what looked like one sword stroke and it manifested as dozens. How in the world do you not see that it happened in a single timeframe?

How is this even an argument? That's just the artists' depiction of fast strikes. He obviously moved his arm a lot more than once, but the artist decided to show the strikes with white patterns rather than Goo's arms.

The calculation literally justifies the timeframe with "He slashed multiple times really fast so I'm gonna use the timeframe of one slash for all of the distance his sword traveled with no proof".

You linked the wrong blog.

Oops.

1. The punch thrown at Hobin was a heavy low punch. Compared to the low kick that his noted to be super relaxed and use the torque from twisting your body. Narratively and just by physics, a low kick like that with perfect technique would be far faster than a punch of that nature.

No low kick is 30x faster than a punch irl standards so this argument doesn't hold up.

2. Hobin is literally shown to be faster than the guy, so there's no contradiction

If you think Hobin being able to run away from the dude in one panel justifies a 30x speed gap, I just don't know what to tell you.

The dude literally blocks the kick in the fight too.

A calculation not having pixel scaling does not mean it's not valid. I have no idea who told you that.

Obviously. It's only invalid when the calculation needs a pixel scale but doesn't have one.

There is no calc stacking in that calc.

1. That rule hasn't been applied yet.
2. If you actually read the thread, you would've seen that using stated speed across multiple step scaling isn't allowed.

Except we do have proof that Hobin moved that distance within the timeframe as we literally get a panel where we see Hobin move in the exact time it took the boxer to complete his punch. Did you actually read the blog?

That panel actually makes it worse for you because based on the after image Hobin created, he is much far away from the punch compared to the first panel. This means that his head position changed between the panels, which invalidates the timeframe as the calc literally gets the timeframe from that distance.

What you failed to account for was the fact that after Jincheol shot the knife, it was cut perfectly in half. What this means is that Jincheol did not shoot the tip of the knife which was right in front of his face, but instead right where the handle and the blade meet (the middle). There is no contradiction.

That knife is not cut in half. The panel I used might've confused you as it's cropped, so here's another scan I found that has the full knife.

Even if the knife was cut in half, it would've changed nothing as the tip of the knife and the middle part of the knife are at the same plane. It's not like the knife was thrown at Jincheol's face.

Eunhyeong punched with his right arm and Daniel grabbed with his right arm. What this means is that Daniel had to move his forearm completely across his body from a lowered position. 90º would not cut it. 180º is fine.

180 degree forearm movement would make your forearm face upwards so no. All he needs to do is reach onwards which is 90 degrees movement, at best.

This simply means that the panel where we see Daniel's hand and Sooyun's blade took place after he already pushed it forwards a bit. We know that's the case because when when the sequence is shown afterwards, we see that the sword first got pushed into a position behind Sooyun before getting thrown downwards.

We don't see anything signifying that the blade was pushed by Daniel in the panel i linked (motion lines, after-images etc.) so this is just a non-argument.

The panel you linked is, in your own words "when the sequence is shown afterwards" so it doesn't mean anything.

 

[Dinozxd]

bump

 

[Dinozxd]

bump

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

​

1. Warren Chae's multi punch
The calculation assumes that all of the punches moved in one single timeframe (0.08s), but there is no evidence supporting that. Each punch could've just moved in seperate timeframes (each punch moving in 0.08s) which would've been enough to blitz the other guy.

Plus, all of the punches don't even need to move that fast for the other guy to not be able to react to them. He's literally getting bombarded with punches, which would naturally reduce your ability to be able to react to attacks.

was the character stated to be perception blitzed? if not then the 0.08s timeframe doesn't even make sense, that's the superhuman perception time, you can perceive something and still be slow enough to be physically unable to react to it resulting in getting bombarded with punches so that timeframe shouldn't be used either, I agree with your other reasoning

 

[Dinozxd]

was the character stated to be perception blitzed? if not then the 0.08s timeframe doesn't even make sense, that's the superhuman perception time, you can perceive something and still be slow enough to be physically unable to react to it resulting in getting bombarded with punches so that timeframe shouldn't be used either, I agree with your other reasoning

Ever since using using Subsonic perception time for blitzes got invalidated, people started to use perception times for reaction blitzes. I personally don't really mind using them for reaction blitzes either tbh, but this isn't really the thread to be discussing that, so you're prolly right.

 

[Dinozxd]

bump x3

 

[Vzearr]

"Agree with all debunks. Dinozxd ur the best"

 

[Homie890]

Makes sense, i guess?

 

[Dinozxd]

"Agree with all debunks. Dinozxd ur the best"

Fully agree with ts

 

[Dinozxd]

bump x4 (pls someone evaluate this)

 

[Dinozxd]

bump x5

 

[Dinozxd]

bump x6 (forgot to bump yesterday)

 

[Dinozxd]

bump x7

 

[Dinozxd]

bump x8

 

[Rynizenz]

Maybe you can also give alt ways to do this instead just saying thier wrong.

Anyways i agree with the daniel(lookism) feat
Then i agree with the jincheol feat
Then for the sinu feat im going to say the first kick was full extension while the others were him use his flexibility like ur suggested.

Now what I don’t agree with
I don’t agree with the hobin feat evem being wrong. You can read the fight again they is 0 and i mean 0 instance shown that pakgo was as fight as hobin and even when he was hitting hobin it was on purpose for him to land his over hand punch. The onlt readon the kick was blocked was due to pakgo predicting hobin. Cause all hobin was doing was low kicks. Also they is 0 proof in Vzearr saying that oh hobin was kicking at the same time. Him assuming that is head cannon.

The other hobin feat needs to be recalced cause I can easily find the distance that the guy moved and 34.3 m/s can be used idk why it can’t it not calc stacking. I seriously don’t understand why hobin couldn’t move the full distance.

The multi punch warren feat is weird cause well it literally just interpretation. Like yeah yr argument makes sense but at the same time does the author intent show that warren fast attack wasn’t immediate. That’s my problem with these feats one feat someone will say oh all the punches hit and the other one they would say one is in the blitz timeframe they is like not all lot of proof for each one but imo they is more proof for all hittinf due to like what the pic js showing and also if the hits are blitzing one after the other they would be distinction showing that instead of one panel. Either irdc for this feat it’s subsonic.

The daniel blocking the blade feat idk why u say it’s bunk and also don’t understand why daniel couldn’t move the full distance and why it matters if his card nullifies damage he still needs to move.

 

[Dinozxd]

Spoiler: yap

I don’t agree with the hobin feat evem being wrong. You can read the fight again they is 0 and i mean 0 instance shown that pakgo was as fight as hobin and even when he was hitting hobin it was on purpose for him to land his over hand punch. The onlt readon the kick was blocked was due to pakgo predicting hobin. Cause all hobin was doing was low kick

My imgur is not working for some reason so I can't leave any scans for now, but Hobin literally had to do anything in the fight but rely on his speed. Had to run away from Pakgo to create some distance because he couldn't take him head on and had to trick him into an overhand right using his biq. He wouldn't need to do all this if there was a 30x speed difference between them. He would be able to casually blitz Pakgo over and over again till he got KO'd. Like, I don't think you understand how much a 30x speed really means.

He was even able to react to the kick, read it's course and check it. I don't know what to tell you other than that.

and 34.3 m/s can be used idk why it can’t it not calc stacking

It is. Using FTE speed because the character is superior to another character who's FTE is calc stacking.

I seriously don’t understand why hobin couldn’t move the full distance.

Because, one; the scene itself is inconsistent with the way the calc is made. Hobin appears to be much further than the punch in the second scan compared to the first scan. Second; even if the first issue was fixed with the feat, the punch would've moved to and further than Hobin's head was when Hobin was countering it, which would invalidate the timeframe.

Then again, you wouldn't be able to recalc the feat because of the first issue, as the distances shown in the manhwa itself is inconsistent.

The daniel blocking the blade feat idk why u say it’s bunk and also don’t understand why daniel couldn’t move the full distance

The timeframe is invalid because the distance between the sword and daniel's face is inconsistent.

why it matters if his card nullifies damage he still needs to move.

He was getting matched and even outsped before that, but suddenly got massively faster than him after he got the ability. So either, the ability also gave him a speed amp along with the damage reduction ability, or they were still comparable after he got the ability and he just used it. The ability doesn't appear to give him a speed amp, just a damage reduction one, so the second assumption makes more sense, which means that there's not a massive speed difference between them. That invalidates the feat as well.

 

[Rynizenz]

Spoiler: yap

My imgur is not working for some reason so I can't leave any scans for now, but Hobin literally had to do anything in the fight but rely on his speed. Had to run away from Pakgo to create some distance because he couldn't take him head on and had to trick him into an overhand right using his biq. He wouldn't need to do all this if there was a 30x speed difference between them. He would be able to casually blitz Pakgo over and over again till he got KO'd. Like, I don't think you understand how much a 30x speed really means.

He was even able to react to the kick, read it's course and check it. I don't know what to tell you other than that.

It is. Using FTE speed because the character is superior to another character who's FTE is calc stacking.

Because, one; the scene itself is inconsistent with the way the calc is made. Hobin appears to be much further than the punch in the second scan compared to the first scan. Second; even if the first issue was fixed with the feat, the punch would've moved to and further than Hobin's head was when Hobin was countering it, which would invalidate the timeframe.

Then again, you wouldn't be able to recalc the feat because of the first issue, as the distances shown in the manhwa itself is inconsistent.

The timeframe is invalid because the distance between the sword and daniel's face is inconsistent.

He was getting matched and even outsped before that, but suddenly got massively faster than him after he got the ability. So either, the ability also gave him a speed amp along with the damage reduction ability, or they were still comparable after he got the ability and he just used it. The ability doesn't appear to give him a speed amp, just a damage reduction one, so the second assumption makes more sense, which means that there's not a massive speed difference between them. That invalidates the feat as well.

Idk why were assuming they is 30x speed difference between pakgo and hobin though?.

Again how is it calc stacking when it something related to in the story. So it’s calc stacking cause someone else is faster than the guy that’s subsonic thay doesn’t make sense and no rules even says that to even be true.

Again u saying that hobin was farther due to the after image is kinda weird. Imo they literally look the same distance the after image is just making it look weird. Also the scene was to show that hobin move way to fast before the punch could even make it past his hobins head and even move at all. I think im just going to wait for a cgm for this cause i really don’t see the movement inconsistencies u do. Maybe i See it a little but even if hobin did move his head back/body a bit idk why that would not add to his full movement including his attack

The daniel thing again just because we don’t see him move the sword up doesn’t mean he didn’t do it speed and u can see this exact argument for like any feat that’s needs any kind of personal intrepretetion when they not clear.

Again idk where u think Daniel and soohyun was matched in speed like at all?. The whole fight was soohyun saying that he couldn’t even touch daniel at all. Also idk why daniels ability also relies on his speed since he was faster than daniel to the difference between xxx stats and xx which have been said to be heaven and earth . Him saying soohyun is to fast doesn’t mean he was getting outspeed it means he was shocked on how he suddenly jumped to be that fast when before he was way slower than him before he used cards

 

[Dinozxd]

Idk why were assuming they is 30x speed difference between pakgo and hobin though?.

Because it's the speed difference assumed in the calculation. Also, you can check out this thread to see why these kinds of calcs are seen as invalid by staff.

Again how is it calc stacking when it something related to in the story. So it’s calc stacking cause someone else is faster than the guy that’s subsonic thay doesn’t make sense and no rules even says that to even be true.

Quoting from the "Hiding Calculations" section of the Calc Stacking page:

Hiding calculations is the practice of trying to avoid calculating a feat in order to be able to use the result in another calculation. In other words it is the practice of trying to fool people into not noticing that calc stacking is being used.

This usually occurs if a feat is quantified per a rule of thumb instead of precisely calculated. A typical example would be a character dodging a bullet from a short distance being ranked as "Supersonic" and then using that ranking to calculate the speed of another character, whose speed one can compare to the former in some feat.

We literally see the same thing being used in the calc blog. The MMA fighter is assumed to be moving at Subsonic speed because he scales to other characters that are FTE, and that gets invalidated because of the Hiding Calculations rule. Switch the MMA fighter in the feat to a character who performed at least a Subsonic feat before, it's the same thing.

The daniel thing again just because we don’t see him move the sword up doesn’t mean he didn’t do it speed and u can see this exact argument for like any feat that’s needs any kind of personal intrepretetion when they not clear.

Well I already talked about this above so you can just scroll above a bit to see my argument for that.

Again idk where u think Daniel and soohyun was matched in speed like at all?. The whole fight was soohyun saying that he couldn’t even touch daniel at all. Also idk why daniels ability also relies on his speed since he was faster than daniel to the difference between xxx stats and xx which have been said to be heaven and earth . Him saying soohyun is to fast doesn’t mean he was getting outspeed it means he was shocked on how he suddenly jumped to be that fast when before he was way slower than him before he used cards

He literally says that he's "Way too fast" in the full scene so this is just false info.

 

[Rynizenz]

Alright then I can agree with the pakgo feat

Doesn’t this not along with this refute it not being calc stacking they was also a vote that that isn’t calc stacking. It’s only dmua and one other person that says it’s calc stacking when it isn’t . Also just because the rule wasn’t accepted yet(due to probably laziness or lack of time). If that’s the only thing that makes this feat being wrong they is quite literally nothing I can do untill its changed to the new rule that was accepted like what a year ago . Also that whole rule u sent is related to calculations the ptj verse being at minimum subsonic isn’t a calculation it’s a proven statement.

Also if that’s how it works then like I see no point in me continuing here tbh.

My previouse statement answers ur question.

Him saying soohyun being way to fast doesn’t mean that soohyun is matching him in speed or is outspeeding him daniel was still dodging his attacks his stats are still higher compared to soohyun. He only said that cause again soohyun was way slower than him to the point he had to pull his speed back and then suddenly he gained a crazy speed amp.

Anyways it’s nice someone kinda brought this up since alot of feats that u did bring up well kinda of eh. Especially that daniel feat no one said anything since it was transonic

 

[Dinozxd]

Doesn’t this not along with this refute it not being calc stacking they was also a vote that that isn’t calc stacking. It’s only dmua and one other person that says it’s calc stacking when it isn’t .

I think you kinda misunderstood the thread. The character A and character B stuff is only accepted when either one of the characters is directly stated to be faster. So you can't just say "Character A is FTE and should be slower than character B so I'm using FTE speed for character B in the calc". That's multiple step scaling, and using multiple step scaling to justify it was rejected.

Also just because the rule wasn’t accepted yet(due to probably laziness or lack of time). If that’s the only thing that makes this feat being wrong they is quite literally nothing I can do untill its changed to the new rule that was accepted like what a year ago . Also that whole rule u sent is related to calculations the ptj verse being at minimum subsonic isn’t a calculation it’s a proven statement.

Yeah I didn't really understand what you're talking about here. Try wording it better maybe?

My previouse statement answers ur question.

And I talked about it above so I don't wanna relay my arguments again cuz it's gonna clog up the thread.

Him saying soohyun being way to fast doesn’t mean that soohyun is matching him in speed or is outspeeding him daniel was still dodging his attacks his stats are still higher compared to soohyun. He only said that cause again soohyun was way slower than him to the point he had to pull his speed back and then suddenly he gained a crazy speed amp.

He quite literally is matching him bruh. The whole reason why the calc even exists is because the dude with the sword outsped him to an insane degree.

Anyways it’s nice someone kinda brought this up since alot of feats that u did bring up well kinda of eh. Especially that daniel feat no one said anything since it was transonic

Thx

 

[Rynizenz]

I think you kinda misunderstood the thread. The character A and character B stuff is only accepted when either one of the characters is directly stated to be faster. So you can't just say "Character A is FTE and should be slower than character B so I'm using FTE speed for character B in the calc". That's multiple step scaling, and using multiple step scaling to justify it was rejected.

Yeah I didn't really understand what you're talking about here. Try wording it better maybe?

And I talked about it above so I don't wanna relay my arguments again cuz it's gonna clog up the thread.

He quite literally is matching him bruh. The whole reason why the calc even exists is because the dude with the sword outsped him to an insane degree.

Thx

This calc stakcing stuff is killing me. I understand what your getting at but it still doesn’t makes sense especially for ptj series.

i basically said that since the rule isn’t accepted I can’t really do much and continue with my previous argument because it relies on the calc stacking rule being placed on the Vs wikis site.

I understand

Again daniel is still faster due to his stats so like even if soohyun was matching him at the moment since at the beginning of the fight daniel was saying that he was holding back. So he wasn’t even trying properly and suddenly soohyun jumped his speed to an insane degree(since questism says each x stat difference is like heaven and earth). So it would make sense for holding back daniel until that moment where his card is used to be calling soohyun fast.

 

[Dinozxd]

This calc stakcing stuff is killing me. I understand what your getting at but it still doesn’t makes sense especially for ptj series.

I mean, it's kinda there to stop people from inflating calcs tbh. If FTE speed gets used, people would justify that and start to use speed of sound for verses that have Transonic and above feats. Then you'd see Supersonic-Super+ verses scaling to Sub Rel or Rel.9

i basically said that since the rule isn’t accepted I can’t really do much and continue with my previous argument because it relies on the calc stacking rule being placed on the Vs wikis site.

I guess.

Again daniel is still faster due to his stats so like even if soohyun was matching him at the moment since at the beginning of the fight daniel was saying that he was holding back. So he wasn’t even trying properly and suddenly soohyun jumped his speed to an insane degree(since questism says each x stat difference is like heaven and earth). So it would make sense for holding back daniel until that moment where his card is used to be calling soohyun fast.

I don't really understand what you're saying here, but it's prolly about some holding back situation as far as I can understand. Can you send me scans for the full fight scene if you can so I can look at it myself?

 

[Rynizenz]

I mean, it's kinda there to stop people from inflating calcs tbh. If FTE speed gets used, people would justify that and start to use speed of sound for verses that have Transonic and above feats. Then you'd see Supersonic-Super+ verses scaling to Sub Rel or Rel.9

I guess.

I don't really understand what you're saying here, but it's prolly about some holding back situation as far as I can understand. Can you send me scans for the full fight scene if you can so I can look at it myself?

the full chapter which is just the fight

 

[Dinozxd]

the full chapter which is just the fight

There are multiple times where it gets stated that the dude with the sword will keep getting stronger with every attack so I really doubt there's 60x speed difference between the two in the scene.

 

[Rynizenz]

There are multiple times where it gets stated that the dude with the sword will keep getting stronger with every attack so I really doubt there's 60x speed difference between the two in the scene.

Idk where u getting the 60x speed difference?. Soohyun was already ranked supersonic before this btw using the previous daniel feat. Unless ur deciding not to use that until it fixed . 445 m/s vs 1,122 it only like what a 2.5+ difference

 

[Dinozxd]

Idk where u getting the 60x speed difference?.

From the calc.

Soohyun was already ranked supersonic before this btw using the previous daniel feat. Unless ur deciding not to use that until it fixed . 445 m/s vs 1,122 it only like what a 2.5+ difference

This is calc stacking btw. Like, not even hiding calculations, straight up calc stacking.

Like every performative and kind member of this site, I suggest you to read the calc stacking page.

 

[Rynizenz]

From the calc.

This is calc stacking btw. Like, not even hiding calculations, straight up calc stacking.

Like every performative and kind member of this site, I suggest you to read the calc stacking page.

Wait what how am i calc stacking they are no hidden calculations are u good?. Im saying that the speed difference is 60x since was already ranked as supersonic.

And im assuming ur using his 20 m/s sword swing speed as his actual speed. That why i said it’s actually not a 60x difference. It would only be calc stacking if i used soohyuns sword speed as the attack speed.

Also this dumb as well because u can say this same thing to every verse like a character verse page has them at hypersonic but theirr speed isn’t use since it was a calc not a statement so we use something more plausible. Idk what to tell you because i never used that supersonic speed in my calc nowhere is it mentioned at all ur tripping balls

 

[Crimsonobu]

some valid criticisms for barely relevant calculations. idk why the calc group members keep sleeping on the far better and more solid feats that exsist out there that can almost undoubtably go to or above hypersonic. but as for what they have accepted now.....

"The calculation assumes that all of the punches moved in one single timeframe (0.08s), but there is no evidence supporting that. Each punch could've just moved in seperate timeframes (each punch moving in 0.08s) which would've been enough to blitz the other guy.
Plus, all of the punches don't even need to move that fast for the other guy to not be able to react to them. He's literally getting bombarded with punches, which would naturally reduce your ability to be able to react to attacks."

this is not a debunk. its a what if that goes on many more assumptions then the calc needs

"This is just a variation of those old "Dodging punches from close range" calcs. The "piggy" character after performing this feat almost got killed by the dude with the knife which pretty much invalidates the calc as it assumes that the speed gap between them is like 40x."

the speed gap between the supposed lowball rando and daniel whos stated to percive attacks in slow motion, is a superhuman even in his fat self.
feat was still preformed, you can even argue daniel got a momentary amp by what lookism has been consistently shown to do (massive temporary amps for the sake of protecting someone)

"Feel like I'm just repeating myself here but these multiple hit calculations are just insane. I don't see any evidence showing that all of the sword slashes happened in one timeframe. This calc is even worse because no timeframe can even be given to all of the separate slashes as no one is getting blitzed here."
yeah i agree. the timeframe is an extreme nerf to what it actually should be. 1s is a ridiculously high assumption

"which means that Shingen moved away from the punch before punching it himself, which in turn invalidates the timeframe"

he can... move back. and catch the punch in the same position, wheres the issue with that?

peep these calcs tho : https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Crimsonobu/Goo_kim_slow_motions_the_hulk

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Crimsonobu/Jagyeom_na_blitzes_fodder

idk if anyone has actually made a decent calc of that new manager kim feat but its almost certainly supersonic or above.

 

[Dinozxd]

Spoiler: Yap

Wait what how am i calc stacking they are no hidden calculations are u good?. Im saying that the speed difference is 60x since was already ranked as supersonic.

Buddy. Hiding calculations isn't the only way you can do calc stacking. The most basic way is what you're doing rn, which is using the speed from another calc.

And im assuming ur using his 20 m/s sword swing speed as his actual speed. That why i said it’s actually not a 60x difference. It would only be calc stacking if i used soohyuns sword speed as the attack speed.

I know that's not actually his speed, but using anything higher than that for the sword's speed would be calc stacking.

Also this dumb as well because u can say this same thing to every verse like a character verse page has them at hypersonic but theirr speed isn’t use since it was a calc not a statement so we use something more plausible. Idk what to tell you because i never used that supersonic speed in my calc nowhere is it mentioned at all ur tripping balls

Idk how I should even reply to this. Just learn how to make calculations?

this is not a debunk. its a what if that goes on many more assumptions then the calc needs

It's a debunk because there's nothing supporting that all of the punches were thrown at the same timeframe.

the speed gap between the supposed lowball rando and daniel whos stated to percive attacks in slow motion, is a superhuman even in his fat self.

Something like that was never stated, up to this point at least.

feat was still preformed, you can even argue daniel got a momentary amp by what lookism has been consistently shown to do (massive temporary amps for the sake of protecting someone)

There's no proof that happened in this scene.

yeah i agree. the timeframe is an extreme nerf to what it actually should be. 1s is a ridiculously high assumption

There's literally nothing you can base a timeframe off of in the feat. A character can be depicted as moving relatively fast all they want. If there's no timeframe you can use for it, it can't be calculated.

he can... move back. and catch the punch in the same position, wheres the issue with that?

There's no proof that he caught the punch in the same position because he moves his head from the initial position.

peep these calcs tho : https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Crimsonobu/Goo_kim_slow_motions_the_hulk

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Crimsonobu/Jagyeom_na_blitzes_fodder

It's really not the point of the thread but I can tell you what I think abt them I guess.

There's no indication of a slow motion situation in the feat other than PTJ re-using panels lmao.

I don't even get what the second feat is about. Some dudes attack the guy and the guy hits them back. That's all.

 

[Rynizenz]

Spoiler: Yap

Buddy. Hiding calculations isn't the only way you can do calc stacking. The most basic way is what you're doing rn, which is using the speed from another calc.

I know that's not actually his speed, but using anything higher than that for the sword's speed would be calc stacking.

Idk how I should even reply to this. Just learn how to make calculations?

It's a debunk because there's nothing supporting that all of the punches were thrown at the same timeframe.

Something like that was never stated, up to this point at least.

There's no proof that happened in this scene.

There's literally nothing you can base a timeframe off of in the feat. A character can be depicted as moving relatively fast all they want. If there's no timeframe you can use for it, it can't be calculated.

There's no proof that he caught the punch in the same position because he moves his head from the initial position.

It's really not the point of the thread but I can tell you what I think abt them I guess.

There's no indication of a slow motion situation in the feat other than PTJ re-using panels lmao.

I don't even get what the second feat is about. Some dudes attack the guy and the guy hits them back. That's all.

I don’t think you can call the first feat fully reusing panels since it the best slow motion exmaple as one character goo is still in moving while basement hulk hasn’t moved an inch

 

[Crimsonobu]

"theres no depiction of slow motion" im staring at a dude. get blitzed, drool hanging mid air, multiple panels. literally shown that dozen+ strikes were done in the time hes shown passing basement hulk. call it whatever you want, im calling it what it is. it looks like slow motion, fits the criteria for slow motion, then its probably slow motion
doesnt really undo the feat shown even if you think hes reusing panels ("reusing" panels with the same framing is common in slow motion feats)

he reflects them all before the attack lands on them. thats the feat,
"There's literally nothing you can base a timeframe off of in the feat. A character can be depicted as moving relatively fast all they want. If there's no timeframe you can use for it, it can't be calculated." id agree on that specific panel. but you CAN get a time estimate with the other panels of objects falling in the air. scince goos attack, everything went by without anything shown touching the floor

from what i remember daniels slow mo eyes have been a thing scince first few chapters? (with the zack fight/comments on always seeing attacks as slow but never reacting cuz hes fat as shit)

i get the slow motion specifically from the drool. as its shown in 3+ panels in the same position. even on other "similar" instances, the blood / drool effects never stay in the same spot. this obviously being different

 

[Dinozxd]

doesnt really undo the feat shown even if you think hes reusing panels ("reusing" panels with the same framing is common in slow motion feats)

If they're re-using panels in the feat, you can't really tell if it's slow motion or not regardless as you can't know that it's the author's intention for it to be a slow-mo feat.


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he reflects them all before the attack lands on them. thats the feat,

How do we know if he didn't move back in the timeframe then. You don't have to stay still to counter attacks.

id agree on that specific panel. but you CAN get a time estimate with the other panels of objects falling in the air. scince goos attack, everything went by without anything shown touching the floor

It's probably because of the wind pressure of the attack.

from what i remember daniels slow mo eyes have been a thing scince first few chapters? (with the zack fight/comments on always seeing attacks as slow but never reacting cuz hes fat as shit)

I think i actually remember something like that as well (not from the Zack stuff though, he had his perfect body in that scene) but seeing attacks slowly but not being able to react to them would just be perception speed which doesn't scale to reactions nor combat speed, so my denunk on it is still valid as the calculation assumes that fat daniel is 30x faster than the guy he almost got killed by.

i get the slow motion specifically from the drool. as its shown in 3+ panels in the same position. even on other "similar" instances, the blood / drool effects never stay in the same spot. this obviously being different

Pretty sure there was another slow mo feat in Lookism that got rejected because of the same reasoning i stated, although it was a water splash.

My main point is though, most slow mo calcs are made from feats like the infamous Metro Man feat, where it's blatantly the author's/director's intention for the feat to be a slow-mo one. Goo slow mo'ing the drool is just too specific for PTJ to consider a feat, hence why i believe it's just a matter of panels being re-used to save time.

 

[Dinozxd]

bump

 

[Dinozxd]

bump

 

[Crimsonobu]

the water splash had different

If they're re-using panels in the feat, you can't really tell if it's slow motion or not regardless as you can't know that it's the author's intention for it to be a slow-mo feat.


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How do we know if he didn't move back in the timeframe then. You don't have to stay still to counter attacks.

It's probably because of the wind pressure of the attack.

I think i actually remember something like that as well (not from the Zack stuff though, he had his perfect body in that scene) but seeing attacks slowly but not being able to react to them would just be perception speed which doesn't scale to reactions nor combat speed, so my denunk on it is still valid as the calculation assumes that fat daniel is 30x faster than the guy he almost got killed by.

Pretty sure there was another slow mo feat in Lookism that got rejected because of the same reasoning i stated, although it was a water splash.

My main point is though, most slow mo calcs are made from feats like the infamous Metro Man feat, where it's blatantly the author's/director's intention for the feat to be a slow-mo one. Goo slow mo'ing the drool is just too specific for PTJ to consider a feat, hence why i believe it's just a matter of panels being re-used to save time.

"How do we know if he didn't move back in the timeframe then. You don't have to stay still to counter attacks."
we see how his stance is during the move. hes never shown to move back via overturning void. and he overturns them via doing a 180degree kick most likely in this specific instance. . but id be fine accepting a 90 degree kick.

theres deffinetly other feats in this same arc. like lineman blitzing what i recall is 12 men in the air without them moving one bit.?
daniel reacting to a blade that already looks like its touching his neck.

linemans (kinda? still iffy on this) literally implied to spew lightning from his moves. including the sound effects applied.
manager kims new feat is LITERALLY at worst supersonic too. (slicing a bullet directed at someone else ) more impressive in context, i reccomend you check it out.

"Goo slow mo'ing the drool is just too specific for PTJ to consider a feat, hence why i believe it's just a matter of panels being re-used to save time."

i get your point of view. but ptj is blatantly portraying goo being a dominant force right after reciving a massive powerup.
also its not the same 2 panels . the 1st drool instance has his head slightly more tilted,and detailed. then its zoomed out. (in a way where you can tell its not the same drawing due to general lack of detail) where key pieces if not every part of the drool maintains the same air position across 4 panels while its a different basement hulk drawing in the same pose. now knowing that its a different drawing, id argue for him to keep the drool in place (easiest thing to draw differently) is outright him showing the massive speed descrepancy via blitz.

"It's probably because of the wind pressure of the attack." the only wind pressure shown from goo is his intial dash, his "wind pressure" is just him actually slicing the things that are in the air rather then throwing them up in the air per slash with wind pressure.
its actually a fairly consistent thing we see in differnt ptj series too, like in manager kim, air slashes (that slash FAR out the range of a human) dont produce air pressure anywhere outside of where the cuts happening, same as in juvenile law / dead mansion (forgot the name)

id reccomend taking a look at other feats that almost 100% get the verse to supersonic/hyper

too further comment on the goo feat, the specific timeframe is the 1st 3 panels of the "slow mo" due to the panel AFTER hes shown to already be past the side of basement hulk (which doesnt put him in a position to have landed those attacks)